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[SolKane]

I very recently learned that the British led an attack against the French fleet shortly after France's downfall in 1940, killing over 1,000 French soldiers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Mers-el-K%C3%A9bir

 

[CommonSense]

I very recently learned that the British led an attack against the French fleet shortly after France's downfall in 1940, killing over 1,000 French soldiers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Mers-el-K%C3%A9bir

well why didn't this "factual" article mention that some French had agreed to aid the german army?

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

So at which point exactly did Britain stop becoming a superpower?

Prior to World War II? After World War II?

And at which point did the U.S. become a superpower?

US was like a cheap ass zerg rush late game.

Explain.

 

[Blackace]

And at which point did the U.S. become a superpower?

the bomb

 

[CommonSense]

So at which point exactly did Britain stop becoming a superpower?

Prior to World War II? After World War II?

And at which point did the U.S. become a superpoower.


Explain.

US by all due process was a "super power" post industrial revolution. Our manufacturing capacity and loyal population was unrivaled by 1910. Some people make the mistake of considering isolation a weakness.


We came into the war (in europe) when Germany had sustained crippiling losses of unreplacable skilled personel and equipment on the eastern front.

 

[Blackace]

see I always hear this side and the "fight down to last male child".....guess we'll never know..

well yeah, they were ready to fight to the last man... if ordered to..

 

[CommonSense]

well yeah, they were ready to fight to the last man... if ordered to..

It was a tough decision amd was used as much for a show of power against the soviets as a weapon against the japanese.I can't quantify if the bomb was good or not but it certainely had the intended effect.

 

[dschalter]

the bomb

nah, it more that the all potential competitors save the ussr were in no position to challenge american hegemony. the usa and ussr were going to be the two big countries, though the bomb did solidify it.

the usa had been the richest and most productive country in the world for a long time, something that does tend to get overlooked, though obvious it lagged militarily... which is what the war was for.

 

[Blackace]

It was a tough decision amd was used as much for a show of power against the soviets as a weapon against the japanese.I can't quantify if the bomb was good or not but it certainely had the intended effect.

I thought one used how it was used would have been enough.. but we did have two different kinds..

 

[CommonSense]

I thought one used how it was used would have been enough.. but we did have two different kinds..

I concur. And why didn't we just detonate one 100 miles offshore? Would have had same effect.

 

[Blackace]

nah, it more that the all potential competitors save the ussr were in no position to challenge american hegemony. the usa and ussr were going to be the two big countries, though the bomb did solidify it.

the usa had been the richest and most productive country in the world for a long time, something that does tend to get overlooked, though obvious it lagged militarily... which is what the war was for.

expect we were poor as all hell in the 30s...

 

[Blackace]

I concur. And why didn't we just detonate one 100 miles offshore? Would have had same effect.

sadly one HAD to happen on land to show the true force of what it was.. but with the second one could have been dropped on already destroyed areas.. or off land..

 

[CommonSense]

expect we were poor as all hell in the 30s...

Isolationism caused this, period. We had only so many consumers and too many producers. Simple math really.

 

[Blackace]

Isolationism caused this, period. We had only so many consumers and too many producers. Simple math really.

The entire world crashed at the same time.. we weren't the only nation poor but we were far from a super power then..

 

[CommonSense]

sadly one HAD to happen on land to show the true force of what it was.. but with the second one could have been dropped on already destroyed areas.. or off land..

I don:t know...The tsunami it caused may have been enough.

 

[KHarvey16]

I concur. And why didn't we just detonate one 100 miles offshore? Would have had same effect.

That is doubtful. And how long do you give them to decide after the demonstration? In that time, how many civilians starve? How many civilians and soldiers are killed by the Russian invasion?

 

[CommonSense]

The entire world crashed at the same time.. we weren't the only nation poor but we were far from a super power then..

I respectfully disagree. Had we been motivated to enter the war in 38 we would have been more than a handfull for anyone....

let's talk Patton wanting to take it to the russians post the fall of Berlin with the remaining Germans as our ally. How would that have went?

 

[Kinyou]

well yeah, they were ready to fight to the last man... if ordered to..

Some Japanese soldiers were definitely, like Hiroo Onoda who kept on fighting for 30 more years, after the war was over, because he didn't receive new orders from his command.

 

[dschalter]

expect we were poor as all hell in the 30s...

the usa was still one of the richest countries in the world, which this graph from the wiki illustrates it nicely- we fell from being easily the richest to on par with the other members of the top tier:

 

[Blackace]

That is doubtful. And how long do you give them to decide after the demonstration? In that time, how many civilians starve? How many civilians and soldiers are killed by the Russian invasion?

Russia wouldn't have been able to invade so soon. The worry about civilians was never an issue as proved by fire bombings and the big bombs in civilian areas. The bombs saved American soliders, and did allow us to button the Japan before Russia could have anything to do with it

 

[DeEJaYMiND]

let's talk Patton wanting to take it to the russians post the fall of Berlin with the remaining Germans as our ally. How would that have went?

If Patton didn't die in that stupid accident in 1945 that scenario could be possible. I'm not entirely sure if the defeated German army would join them but a two front attack (Europe and Pacific) could be in place after the surrender of Japan. Patton thought that the Red Army was under-supplied and vulnerable but mostly weak. Looking back Hitler thought the same

 

[Blackace]

the usa was still one of the richest countries in the world, which this graph from the wiki illustrates it nicely- we fell from being easily the richest to on par with the other members of the top tier:

Yeah Wiki shows how much the depression hurt us... Because the cost of living didnt fall along with it.

 

[KHarvey16]

Russia wouldn't have been able to invade so soon. The worry about civilians was never an issue as proved by fire bombings and the big bombs in civilian areas. The bombs saved American soliders, and did allow us to button the Japan before Russia could have anything to do with it

The Soviet invasion began on August 9th. It lasted less than a month and killed almost 100,000 soldiers on both sides, the vast majority on the Japanese end of course.

 

[dschalter]

If Patton didn't die in that stupid accident in 1945 that scenario could be possible. I'm not entirely sure if the defeated German army would join them but a two front attack (Europe and Pacific) could be in place after the surrender of Japan. Patton thought that the Red Army was under-supplied and vulnerable but mostly weak. Looking back Hitler thought the same

it's a question of will to fight. the USA had the strength to overcome the soviet union, especially when you consider that it would have gotten more outside support, but the casualties would have been truly enormous and the initial reverses would have been quite bad.

Yeah Wiki shows how much the depression hurt us... Because the cost of living didnt fall along with it.

hurt badly, but still right at/near the top, which shows how strong the economy was relative to those of other countries.

 

[Blackace]

The Soviet invasion began on August 9th. It lasted less than a month and killed almost 100,000 soldiers on both sides, the vast majority on the Japanese end of course.

In China

 

[CommonSense]

If Patton didn't die in that stupid accident in 1945 that scenario could be possible. I'm not entirely sure if the defeated German army would join them but a two front attack (Europe and Pacific) could be in place after the surrender of Japan. Patton thought that the Red Army was under-supplied and vulnerable but mostly weak. Looking back Hitler thought the same

Hitler's biggest mistake was thinking his experience as a WWI message boy gave him the ability to plot military strategy. He was too egotistical (why not bypass staligrad to the volga)and took things way to personally(the battle of britain) to be effective.

 

[KHarvey16]

In China

Controlled by the Japanese. The distinction between Japanese and Chinese civilians certainly doesn't change the justification.

 

[shock33]

If Patton didn't die in that stupid accident in 1945 that scenario could be possible. I'm not entirely sure if the defeated German army would join them but a two front attack (Europe and Pacific) could be in place after the surrender of Japan. Patton thought that the Red Army was under-supplied and vulnerable but mostly weak. Looking back Hitler thought the same

Is it credible though? I don't necessarily mean militarily, but how do you sell to your populace what is effectively a new war against your former ally who's done most of the grunt work in grinding down Germany?

Much as Churchill hated communists and raged against Stalin to the americans, I suspect even he would have struggled to sell that to a British population that's already endured 6 years of war.

Question - Was there a real fear of communism in the US at the time? Or did it only ratchet up post war with the iron curtain and rise of McCarthyism ?

 

[DeEJaYMiND]

Hitler's biggest mistake was thinking his experience as a WWI message boy gave him the ability to plot military strategy. He was too egotistical (why not bypass staligrad to the volga)and took things way to personally(the battle of britain) to be effective.

Correct! Egos are a pain during the war Some German generals did understand military strategy like Rommel or Dönitz but in the end the inner circle of Hitler, and Hitler himself, lived in a illusion.

 

[Blackace]

Controlled by the Japanese. The distinction between Japanese and Chinese civilians certainly doesn't change the justification.

It's a geographically thing, they wouldn't have made it through China and Korea to Japan that quickly.

 

[DeEJaYMiND]

Is it credible though? I don't necessarily mean militarily, but how do you sell to your populace what is effectively a new war against your former ally who's done most of the grunt work in grinding down Germany?

I think Patton understood what was coming (cold war) years before anyone else. Of course everyone was feed up of the war. But America had the atomic bomb technology.

And remember that 5 years after WW2 the Korea war started...

Much as Churchill hated communists and raged against Stalin to the americans, I suspect even he would have struggled to sell that to a British population that's already endured 6 years of war.

Agree! They would probably be on the back seat of that. But you cant forget that America saved there ass shipping tons of supplies.

 

[KHarvey16]

It's a geographically thing, they wouldn't have made it through China and Korea to Japan that quickly.

It's not necessary that they could. The civilian and military losses incurred during a prolonged soviet invasion through china and Manchuria would easily overshadow the casualties caused by the two bombs.

 

[Blackace]

It's not necessary that they could. The civilian and military losses incurred during a prolonged soviet invasion through china and Manchuria would easily overshadow the casualties caused by the two bombs.

And America cared nothing about the losses of Chinese, Japanese lives at that point...The bombs had nothing to do with saving the lives of Chinese civilians or Japanese solders..

In fact the campaign lasted well after the bombs were dropped...

 

[Napalm_Frank]

Much as Churchill hated communists and raged against Stalin to the americans, I suspect even he would have struggled to sell that to a British population that's already endured 6 years of war.

Well at least he tried.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unthinkable

 

[KHarvey16]

And America cared nothing about the losses of Chinese, Japanese lives at that point...The bombs had nothing to do with saving the lives of Chinese civilians or Japanese solders..

In fact the campaign lasted well after the bombs were dropped...

Civilians were a consideration when deciding when and how best to end the war, but even if they were not we would not be precluded from today considering that aspect when judging what course of action was best. We aren't discussing the validity or desireability of the methods used to come to a conclusion but of the conclusion itself.

 

[numble]

It's not necessary that they could. The civilian and military losses incurred during a prolonged soviet invasion through china and Manchuria would easily overshadow the casualties caused by the two bombs.

Those areas were Communist China strongholds, not Nationalist strongholds; I doubt the US cared about weakening the CCP. The US airlifted Nationalist troops to the North just so that Japan could surrender to the Nationalists and not to the Communists.

 

[Blackace]

Those areas were Communist China strongholds, not Nationalist strongholds; I doubt the US cared about weakening the CCP. The US airlifted Nationalist troops to the North just so that Japan could surrender to the Nationalists and not to the Communists.

They raped and pillaged communist aras without regard, from August until Sept

Japan surrendered on August 15th so yeah the US didn't seem to care much...

 

[KHarvey16]

They raped and pillaged communist aras without regard, from August until Sept

Japan surrendered on August 15th so yeah the US didn't seem to care much...

I don't understand how this is an argument against the point being made.

 

[Blackace]

I don't understand how this is an argument against the point being made.

Because the point being made can't really be proved that the 2nd bomb prevented the Russians from killing people since they continued killing well after the 2nd bomb

 

[KHarvey16]

Because the point being made can't really be proved that the 2nd bomb prevented the Russians from killing people since they continued killing well after the 2nd bomb

The actual surrender was signed on September 2nd and Soviet hostilities stopped.

 

[Dmncnby2k9]

Was the beginning of the end for Hitler invading the USSR?

 

[fizzelopeguss]

US and British armies didn't fight like the Russians either- there would have been no "meatgrinder offensive."

Caen and the bocage was a scene of brutal fighting, fighting that had the british asking serious questions about the casualties they were recieving. This was against an enemy poorly supplied, starved of men, machines and fuel. And against a luftwaffe which had been cut to ribbons

Some that always kind of confused me about the World Wars was how Germany was able to build up such a formidable military between World War I and World War II. Did the allies just not enforce the Treaty of Versailles after the war or something? There were French troops stationed in the Rhineland right?

On paper it wasn't that formidable, the germans were planning for a war in 1945. The British and French had more men, more tanks, more planes and more ships. It was the combined arms tactics that put the allies on the back foot.

So at which point exactly did Britain stop becoming a superpower?

Prior to World War II? After World War II?

And at which point did the U.S. become a superpower?

The middle of WWII, fighting in north africa, the atlantic, the med and the far east was insanity.

If Patton didn't die in that stupid accident in 1945 that scenario could be possible. I'm not entirely sure if the defeated German army would join them but a two front attack (Europe and Pacific) could be in place after the surrender of Japan. Patton thought that the Red Army was under-supplied and vulnerable but mostly weak. Looking back Hitler thought the same

The allies would have been bitchslapped back into the atlantic. The red army of 1945 was exceptionally well equipped, battle hardened like no other and had gained a superb understanding of deep strike tactics and logistics, as was demonstrated in the soviet liberation of manchuria.

In fact i'd argue the red army of 45 was more formidable than the germans ever were.

 

[Blackace]

The actual surrender was signed on September 2nd and Soviet hostilities stopped.

Sure, but the surrender was no secret and the occuapation began in August, on the 28th...

 

[KHarvey16]

Sure, but the surrender was no secret and the occuapation began in August, on the 28th...

Why would that stop the Soviets? That was on the Japanese homeland. Taking longer to stop the war by waiting or using some method other than the bombs certainly would not have shortened this process.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

US by all due process was a "super power" post industrial revolution. Our manufacturing capacity and loyal population was unrivaled by 1910. Some people make the mistake of considering isolation a weakness.

So we became a superpower at the turn of the 20th century?

And I assume it was pioneering Capitalism and our Godlike population growth that fueled this correct?I

nah, it more that the all potential competitors save the ussr were in no position to challenge american hegemony. the usa and ussr were going to be the two big countries, though the bomb did solidify it.

the usa had been the richest and most productive country in the world for a long time, something that does tend to get overlooked, though obvious it lagged militarily... which is what the war was for.

So the US was like a rich modern China?

Also I wonder how powerful a victorious Nazi Germany would have been.

expect we were poor as all hell in the 30s...

As was everyone else in the 30's.

 

[Blackace]

Why would that stop the Soviets? That was on the Japanese homeland. Taking longer to stop the war by waiting or using some method other than the bombs certainly would not have shortened this process.

because the 2nd bomb could have been dropped anywhere else and they would have surrendered since we are using your hindsight and we shouldn't think what went into their actual reasoning for why they did it..

 

[weekend_warrior]

because the 2nd bomb could have been dropped anywhere else and they would have surrendered since we are using your hindsight and we shouldn't think what went into their actual reasoning for why they did it..

You can't say they would have surrendered like it's fact. There were probably people who thought they'd surrender in a second if we just dropped the first bomb in the ocean near them, but we didn't drop it on the ocean, and they still didn't surrender. The war was over, Japan knew it, they were going against entire Allied Forced but they wouldn't surrender, and the US was going to do what it took to force them too, not sit around while Japan rebuilt, and not risk more lives with a risky ground assault.

The aftermath speaks for itself, Japan has rebuilt into an economic power house, and are now good allies with the US. What's done is done and it's silly to speculate may have happened in an alternate reality.

 

[KHarvey16]

because the 2nd bomb could have been dropped anywhere else and they would have surrendered since we are using your hindsight and we shouldn't think what went into their actual reasoning for why they did it..

But now we're right back where we started this exchange. The Japanese gave absolutely no indication to suggest dropping a bomb in the ocean would be enough.

 

[Blackace]

But now we're right back where we started this exchange. The Japanese gave absolutely no indication to suggest dropping a bomb in the ocean would be enough.

Actually they did.. they issued surrender orders.. which we decoded..

They even opened surrender channels.. but they wanted to save the Royal family, which we did anyways..

 

[KHarvey16]

Actually they did.. they issued surrender orders.. which we decoded..

They even opened surrender channels.. but they wanted to save the Royal family, which we did anyways..

Those running the country did not issue surrender orders. The "channels" were attempts by one person to broker a peace through the Russians. They had no authority to do so and certainly didn't have the backing of those running the country.