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Opinion Would Smash Bros be a success if it DID NOT have the Nintendo properties?

The Pleasure

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Every time I talk to someone about Smash the FIRST thing that comes to mind is the roster. It has this character. It has this character. It has my favorite Nintendo franchises in there. However, one thing I never hear talked about is the actual game play. The game play is a sort of Sumo Wrestling fight. You shove a character out of the ring which is either innately fascinating when in the context of watching two massive men shove each other and grab at each other while slapping the shit out of one another. Though every time I ask this question to people about the game itself barring the roster, I never get any actual sense of joy from it. At bet the game play would be considered "good" or "serviceable" but never amazing or great. Every time Smash is spoken in the context of being a "great" game its always the character roster that's front and center.

In your eyes would you consider Smash Bros a legitimately great game? Or is this a game that's main appeal the Nintendo characters and the gameplay itself is throw away if you strip out those characters?
 
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-Arcadia-

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The fan service circle-jerk is what’s taking it to such heights, but underneath that, the gameplay actually is phenomenal.

I think it would still be a well-loved game, but not quite as popular. The ‘Celebration of all things Nintendo and Gaming’ theme is what gives it the final kick.
 

The Pleasure

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The fan service circle-jerk is what’s taking it to such heights, but underneath that, the gameplay actually is phenomenal.

I think it would still be a well-loved game, but not quite as popular. The ‘Celebration of all things Nintendo and Gaming’ theme is what gives it the final kick.
Honestly I feel the gameplay to be rather lackluster to be honest. I hate movement with analog sticks as it never felt good on a 2d plane. Honestly I'd probably like ultimate more if I was able to control it with a Dpad and was able to dash with a double press in the direction I want to go.

Honestly if it didn't have the characters, I'd see it's actual popularity based on gameplay alone more akin to Brawlout or possibly Rivals of Aether.
 

Rest

All these years later I still chuckle at what a fucking moron that guy is.
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Just ask Sony about theirs if you want the answer to that question.
Sony's wasn't fun though. If Super Smash Bros. hadn't had Nintendo characters, it probably would have become a new staple at that time, and its original characters would have been added to Nintendo's stable of icons.
 
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Brawlhalla is pretty much the same exact concept proving that the game would have most likely been successfully regardless of nintendo characters. I like both games now but I have been playing Brawlhalla slighty more because it's just more fun to me when I can aim for a higher rank.
 
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-Arcadia-

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Honestly I'd probably like ultimate more if I was able to control it with a Dpad and was able to dash with a double press in the direction I want to go.

Somewhat agree. That may be an option, though. I’ve never looked into it.

I love the gameplay, though. It’s nice to take a break from combo-heavy fighters with something approachable, yet still retaining the mind games, depth, and full suite of options.

I’m not generally on board with this ‘Smash is the best game ever thing’, but I find the polish, how everything moves, just the very feel of the game, and how fun it is to fight people, delightful.
 

jts

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The fan service circle-jerk is what’s taking it to such heights, but underneath that, the gameplay actually is phenomenal.

I think it would still be a well-loved game, but not quite as popular. The ‘Celebration of all things Nintendo and Gaming’ theme is what gives it the final kick.
That is perfectly put. The game couldn’t stay in power without the great gameplay that people really like and wouldn’t pull the same numbers without the fanservice.
 
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FMXVII

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Nintendo took their most iconic characters - some of the most iconic video game characters of all time, and made one of the best damned competitive multiplayer party games of all time.

No.

Further:

Not only was it the Nintendo characters that drove Smash's success, it was also the Nintendo aesthetic, which defined it as such.

Even with the Nintendo characters, Smash would not have been anywhere the success it was, if it had, oh, say, Playstation All-Stars's aesthetic.

Conversely, Playstation All-Stars might not have been the sales dumpster fire it was, if Sony had less than subtly lifted Smash's looks, as well.

In for a penny, only gets you a pounding.
 
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stickkidsam

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I think the gameplay of Smash (in particular Project M and Ultimate) is solid enough to be a hit on its own. It's a tight party fighter that is easy to pick up and has enough depth that you can have kickass competitive play. Whether or not it would be a success without the brand recognition would depend on luck, but also whether it had a great roster of fighters that people would remember.

Just like any fighter that became popular, it would need a strong identity. Luckily, it has that now in that it's a celebration of gaming (even if it's mostly Nintendo).
 

ShinNL

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When you're too long in the circle-jerk it's hard to see, but as someone who mostly has people around me who are not specifically Nintendo fans, Smash was never a good party game. Aside from the few super popular ancient franchises, most of the cast is not recognized by non-gamers. The gameplay is way too chaotic and too fast for newcomers. PvP in general also ends up with some winners and losers.

For non-gamer's game, things like Overcooked, Mario Kart and Jackbox are much better.
For gamer's games, things like Nine Parchment, Crawl, Diablo are much better experiences.

The fighting game genre always suffered from this problem. Not once have I ever went to someone's place and randomly enjoyed a fighting game. Either I know too much, or I know too little and your opponent wants to show off before you can even try 1 move.

It's not a party game. It's competitive the moment you start it.
 

Rentahamster

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If it didn't have good IP to piggyback off of, it still would have been a decent series due to the strength of its gameplay. If it didn't have good gameplay, if would have still been a decent series due to the strength of its IP.

But it was lucky enough to have both good gameplay that features strong IP. Match made in heaven.
 
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royox

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Nobody would give a fuck about smash bros if it didn't have Nintendo characters and famous IP. Fanservice was everything for those games to be a success.
 
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Closer

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We could say the same about Street Fighter when Street Fighter III New Generation released. People bitched about not having *insert character name* and that the game sucked because of that. People even criticized the gameplay way back then.
 

JordanN

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Melee was legitimately a good game. Not only did it expand the roster of the N64 version greatly, but it had the adventure mode, event matches, trophies, new modes and so forth.

While the Nintendo characters was a huge draw, I honestly would have picked up a clone that did match the presentation and gameplay of Melee.

I've played the sequels to Melee and Nintendo characters alone are not enough to keep me playing.
 
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Funny hypocritical question coming from fucking ugly original KOF character avatar guy. Would people have cared about KOF as much if it was only original characters and the Fatal Fury, Art of Fighting, Athena, Ikari Warriors characters weren't included? Well do you play KOF for the cameo characters or the game itself? You really think the man who made Kirby couldn't come up with a line up of original characters that people would want to play as?
 

Belmonte

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The gameplay is solid, easy to grasp and immediately fun, even if you don't understand all the mechanics.

If Nintendo didn't use their classic characters, they would make new ones. And they know how to make appealing characters for a very wide margin of players, in different styles. Splatoon, ARMS, Fire Emblem, Zelda, Metroid...they know their stuff.

And only by being "the Nintendo fighting game", it would have attention, even without Mario. It would not be something like "The Outfoxies", an Smash -like game before Smash Bros, unfortunately forgotten.
 

VertigoOA

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I only bought Smash 64 because at the time the Metroid IP was dead for 8 years.

otherwise.. smash sucks

And the Metroid IP will have been dead for 8 years again by the time we get a new game...

:messenger_unamused:
 
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GymWolf

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I only played the gamecube one and i was bored to death after less than 10 hours but a lot of people like the game so more power to them.
 

mcjmetroid

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I don't think it would have succeeded without Sakurai to be honest.

It think it would have always been a polished game but the attention to detail that Sakurai gives puts other Nintendo developers to shame.
 

JimboJones

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It would have reviewed well but may have ended up being a sleeper hit or a cult classic and fizzled out after 2 iterations.

Or it might not have, who knows!

Probably wouldn't have sold as much as it did.
 

radewagon

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Nope. It's fun, but not so fun that it would have attracted the audience it has without it's killer lineup of characters. That said, it's still a really good game and there's nothing wrong with leveraging the popularity of established characters in order to better attract people to a game.
 
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Melee could have done well even without the Nintendo characters as the system is that good.

Brawl would have flopped massively and Wii U/3DS would have been okay.

Personally speaking, although I love the fanservice of the games. Brawl was purely for hype and Wii U/3DS did nothing for me despite being more closer to Melee.

Ultimate is a little slower for me and the content for the single player isn't for me, but the Multiplayer is still great.

My answer is that Melee is the only one that could hold a candle without the Nintendo Characters.
 
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IKSTUGA

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Hell no. Fan service has always been the main thing in Smash. The recent Banjo DLC gave me all sorts of feels and established Ultimate as one of the best games of all time (for me).
 

ROMhack

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Based on gameplay, Mêlée and Ultimate, yeah, but not so much the others. It's strange to think that Smash 4 even exists because it seems so forgettable now...
 
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Absolutely. I can't believe the roster of Ultimate. Very often I keep staring at the selection screen saying to myself: so Mario, Samus, Megaman, Sonic, Snake, Ryu, Cloud, Bayonetta, Simon and Terry are all in the same game. Come on.
 

SweetShark

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The biggest hype is created by showing little by little well-known characters a newcomers. Undying recipe for a success.
Gameplay come second and this is the truth. Recent proof is the Guilty Gear StrIVe.
 

Fbh

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I don't think so.
A large part of the original appeal was seeing all of these iconic Nintendo characters fighting. Take that away and interest in the first title would have been way lower to begin with. Even now I'd say the VAST majority of sales are due to it being a fun party game with a lot of Nintendo fanservice, the people who are into the actual gameplay and competitive side is just a fraction of the general audience, and I wouldn't be surprised if even a lot of "pros" first got into the game because of the crossover concept.
 
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Lionel Richie

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So "Nintendo" name is the 70% of Nintendo games?

 
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The Pleasure

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I don't understand the OP's question, I don't think the success of Smash Bros should be questioned at all because its such a success for Nintendo.
The question is of the game itself. Would smash bros be as big a success on the merits of its gameplay alone without the nintendo properties. Of course nintendo would make new characters for the game, but no mario, samus, link, donkey kong, zelda or any already made characters.
 

The Pleasure

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Funny hypocritical question coming from fucking ugly original KOF character avatar guy. Would people have cared about KOF as much if it was only original characters and the Fatal Fury, Art of Fighting, Athena, Ikari Warriors characters weren't included? Well do you play KOF for the cameo characters or the game itself? You really think the man who made Kirby couldn't come up with a line up of original characters that people would want to play as?
I ask a legitimate question which has actually provided a variety of responses and you run into this topic sucking off nintendo harder than an Asian whore at the local massage parlor. But looking at that name I half expected you to make a Falcon punch jab ramming into this topic.

Would people have played KOF without the characters? Fuck, most people that know about KOF know only Kyo and Iori or the Orochi Trio. The people who mainly use team AOF are Mexicans. And Athena? She couldn't bring anyone into her fucking shitty game. Ikari Warriors? Their American names were Paul and Vince. Though technically the names are Ralf and Clark in the Japanese versions, most people would not see the Ikari Warriors as part of KOF.

Now would I play KOF without the characters? Hell I didn't even use the cross over characters when the game came out. I used all original characters. Since you seem to wonder about my "ugly KOF character" yes I did use him for being new simply because his move list amuses me. My actual user name is the name of his grapple move. His grab is called "The Pleasure" which is a half circle back. Something smash players complain about being as too difficult. But that's besides the point.

Did I play Smash? Yes. Have I actually given it a chance? Yes. I've played about 20 hours of it or so before I made a judgment on the gameplay. Lots of people I see playing this and amongst friends always talk about "The Roster".

As for Sakurai creating Kirby. Yes he did. He could also create new characters. No doubt about it. BUT would they be anywhere near as successful? Arms is dead. Nobody knows who the fuck those characters are. Smash could have launched without the hotness of Nintendo characters and if they went with an all new cast, it could have very well bombed into oblivion. What if the series started with new characters and the N64 game was the launch and with that killed due to the gameplay not being that good and the cast forgettable.

That's the question I was asking. But you try to reverse it on an obviously niche game where the more direct comparison would be the Capcom VS series.
 
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Walledhouse

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... its original characters would have been added to Nintendo's stable of icons.
As a kid characters like Captain Falcon, Nes, Kirby and Samus were basically original characters to me. I’d played most things Mario, Pokemon and Zelda.

Then it’s like “I thought Kirby was some dumb kids game, why is he here.” “Hey look a robot from some space game not on the N64.” “Some guy from some racing game, bottom of the barrel much?” “If you beat the game on very hard without dying my friend told me you unlock some random Japanese kid called NES.” “What, like the console...?”
 
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Super Mario

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Smash is a great game. There is no way it would be one of the best party games ever if it wasn't fun.

But no, it would not be as popular if it didn't have Nintendo characters. The items, stages, music, moves, and of course characters are iconic. It's just like any other brand recognition in the world. It matters.
 
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BigBooper

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I've never really enjoyed it, but there's no telling whether it would catch on with only original characters. It would never be nearly as huge though.
 

JordanN

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Oh yeah, I forgot to mention this (since I was on my phone).

There have been Smash clones on Nintendo DS and IMO they're just as good or even better.





Although to be fair, they do use anime properties (i.e Fairy Tail, Shonen Jump).
 
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Mista

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When you're too long in the circle-jerk it's hard to see, but as someone who mostly has people around me who are not specifically Nintendo fans, Smash was never a good party game. Aside from the few super popular ancient franchises, most of the cast is not recognized by non-gamers. The gameplay is way too chaotic and too fast for newcomers. PvP in general also ends up with some winners and losers.

For non-gamer's game, things like Overcooked, Mario Kart and Jackbox are much better.
For gamer's games, things like Nine Parchment, Crawl, Diablo are much better experiences.

The fighting game genre always suffered from this problem. Not once have I ever went to someone's place and randomly enjoyed a fighting game. Either I know too much, or I know too little and your opponent wants to show off before you can even try 1 move.

It's not a party game. It's competitive the moment you start it.
Well said. I fully agree with this one

Mario Party is the a great party game even when it turns competitive like Smash. Mario Kart also turns competitive as soon as the light goes green. In Smash case though, somehow it turns into a matter of honour

To be fair though, Smash’s gameplay was always solid even if they only change a bit in it. Of course Nintendo’s roster plays a huge role in the games success but at the same time the game itself is brilliant. This is coming from a Smash noob and not even a fan
 
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