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[TheDarkPhantom]

Yes, how is this even a question? PlayStation needs to remember what made them successful in the first place, none of it had to do with aping Xbox' business model. Whatever criticisms I have of Nintendo the fact is they've always marched to the beat of their own drum and done so to great success.

PlayStation just needs to keep doing what they've been doing for all these years, creating the best single player exclusives on the market while diversifying into the multiplayer space (which they've very much started to focus on with no less than 10 games planned/in active development in that sphere). Personally I don't care much for most MP stuff but I recognize it's importance.

 

[MonarchJT]

We don't know that or to what degree because MS dont release their numbers. But I imagine Sony has modelling and better access to numbers than us

If it was as profitable as you seem to imagine they would be jumping in feet first

Not sure why its hard for you to believe it's not as profitable when Sony have directly stated its not. Do you think they dont want profit?

i think Sony knows that in order to maintain a high level of interest in the service, this needs a continuous influx of titles ... and probably the momentary "no" from Sony is due to their number of studios owned and the inability to increase the number considerably in a short time (as Microsoft did by spending an amount of money never seen in the world of video games).
Looking at the earnings figures it is evident that the story is different from how they tell it

 

[Bernd Lauert]

Agreed. If it made true financial sense for PlayStation, it would of already happened. Microsoft is hedging GamePass on a loss leader strategy. If it was all making bank, people would know. You just gotta keep it up long enough until it’s self funding on its own. I’m sure they see a finish line somewhere in the horizon, not sure where.

Microsoft is not using a loss leader strategy with Gamepass.

 

[MonarchJT]

Why the obsession for Sony to go down on Xbox route? You guys know Sony can't bank red for their most profitable segments.

isn't the most profitable segment is not even the second in revenue

 

[MonarchJT]

A game with 250 millions budget share free for PS+ owners, wich one month cost 9,99$

Supposing 10 millions players play the game + sharing money with other game/service etc....

Yeah, no... Sony of course losing money...

10 millions of 60/70$ is more sense... and no sharing money for other game/service....

There is no doubt Microsoft losing money doing this... eh....

did you even see the pie chart ?

 

[ethomaz]

Just imagine your games selling 2 million instead 5 million at full price.

It is not a big loss… just $210 million uns a few days.

 

[ethomaz]

Your math is wrong. 50m PS+ users at 15 bucks a month is 9B a year.

Actually PS+ costs $5 per month… that is full price.

 

[SSfox]

Maybe not if PS+ has like 300 millions subs or something, but as it is right now it's definitely yes, i wonder how people can't even figure this out by themselves.

 

[kingfey]

Where did you get 3 billion from? And you realise that's less than the software revenue in the first post?

There's no way to calculate what the cost of licensing is.

Again, if it was so profitable Sony would just do it.

Not sure why its hard to accept MS is running a loss leader strategy

Are you saying each of those exceeds 10m?
GOTG, which was new costed that much.

Also check Epic leaked documents, about how much they paid for those free games.

 

[DForce]

There's a reason why they're not putting games day one on the service.

 

[Yoboman]

Sony make 5.75 b from boxed and digital software. They make 3.67 b from subscriptions

They would need 78.5 million subscribers paying their highest subscription cost of $120 per year to get to that level of combined revenue. And even if they did, they would be making way less profit on that revenue because their cost of doing business sky-rocket with licensing fees

 

[Yoboman]

Are you saying each of those exceeds 10m?
GOTG, which was new costed that much.

Also check Epic leaked documents, about how much they paid for those free games.

GOTG wasn't new when it came to Gamepass. It was five months old

There is also some math involved that would be the potential sales on the platform needing to be covered by the licensing fee. Sony would need to pay more in licensing than MS do

 

[THE DUCK]

It might hurt the pocketbook at first, but adoption rates would be extremely high.
By doing this they would slow the flow of users moving to gamepass, ensure steady revenue flows, and keep loyal customers.
They can continue to sell games, you guys always act like they lose 100% of sales, that's simply not true.

If they don't do this, and do it soon, how do they stop casual gamers from moving to xbox for what they perceive is the value of gamepass? The new tiers won't do it.

 

[MonarchJT]

Just imagine your games selling 2 million instead 5 million at full price.

It is not a big loss… just $210 million uns a few days.

the number are there
3.6 PSN
5.5 digital+physical

..game sales also cutted in half to run a service in loss for some time would not change the fortunes of the company. But the reality of the fact is that loss would be shifted (partly if not completely) to PSN earnings and DLCs....making your platform more complete and with more choice. Also remember they having a service with day one releases it doesn't stop the company from selling full games.
The motivation is not economic but of the management of the company

 

[Bernd Lauert]

It might hurt the pocketbook at first, but adoption rates would be extremely high.
By doing this they would slow the flow of users moving to gamepass, ensure steady revenue flows, and keep loyal customers.
They can continue to sell games, you guys always act like they lose 100% of sales, that's simply not true.

If they don't do this, and do it soon, how do they stop casual gamers from moving to xbox for what they perceive is the value of gamepass? The new tiers won't do it.

I fully expect Jimbo to do this within the next five years, probably sooner. He even left the door of possibility open for himself.

 

[rickybooby87]

Microsoft is not using a loss leader strategy with Gamepass.

So GamePass is profitable? Not being contentious. Legit question.

 

[Dick Jones]

So GamePass is profitable? Not being contentious. Legit question.

I believe the only phrase Phil Spencer used was sustainable. Its up to you whether you think the word sustainable means profitable or not. I have never seen the word profitable used by any Microsoft employee discussing Gamepass. I am open to correction

 

[MonarchJT]

After looking at that chart i expect sony buying lots of my mid lvl studios and change strategy in the next couple of years following exactly what Ms is doing ....PC releases and day one releases on premium tier of their service

 

[ethomaz]

the number are there
3.6 PSN
5.5 digital+physical

..game sales also cutted in half to run a service in loss for some time would not change the fortunes of the company. But the reality of the fact is that loss would be shifted (partly if not completely) to PSN earnings and DLCs....making your platform more complete and with more choice. Also remember they having a service with day one releases it doesn't stop the company from selling full games.
The motivation is not economic but of the management of the company

The motivation is purely economic.

Sony first party games are made with big budget with high full priced sales target to recover it.

If they want to change to day one releases on PS+ they need to drop the high budget and the near term expectation to recover it.

Subscriptions can give more money in long term I guess but that affect production because you need the money in near term and not way until subscription covered it that can take months to years.

It make sense for games that doesn’t have a big full priced push.

 

[adamsapple]

So GamePass is profitable? Not being contentious. Legit question.

As per Phil it's sustainable, but he directly addressed the point in an earlier interview that GP is not burning money like some people online like to report.

-

On topic. Yes Sony might lose money, but imagine the goodwill they will generate with the fanbase and how much it'll help attract more people to the hardware/service.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

So GamePass is profitable? Not being contentious. Legit question.

The CEO of Microsoft Gaming explicitly said that they're not burning money on Gamepass for some kind of future gain.

 

[remember_spinal]

I believe the only phrase Phil Spencer used was sustainable. Its up to you whether you think the word sustainable means profitable or not. I have never seen the word profitable used by any Microsoft employee discussing Gamepass. I am open to correction

If it was profitable he would say profitable not sustainable. It’s very easy to see the corpo speak from these execs.

They are very deliberate with their words and that takes years of media training.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

You've got a screw lose if you seriously think offering their FP games for $8 a month isn't going to decimate their sales.

 

[remember_spinal]

As per Phil it's sustainable, but he directly addressed the point in an earlier interview that GP is not burning money like some people online like to report.

-

On topic. Yes Sony might lose money, but imagine the goodwill they will generate with the fanbase and how much it'll help attract more people to the hardware/service.

Sony are not the ones in need of “good will” they’ve earned that by putting out 5 generations of successful consoles and software. Which is why they can’t keep them on the shelves.

The people who need good will are the ones who completely gave up on their fans last generation.

Xbox fans want sony to follow in microsofts footsteps because they want them to play to microsofts strengths which is pretty much unlimited spending. Its the reason why they never bring up these same arguments for nintendo who still prefer to sell their software.

Any argument that sony should follow microsoft down that money pit know what they’re doing when they suggest it.

 

[Topher]

So GamePass is profitable? Not being contentious. Legit question.

We don't know.

 

[kingfey]

GOTG wasn't new when it came to Gamepass. It was five months old

There is also some math involved that would be the potential sales on the platform needing to be covered by the licensing fee. Sony would need to pay more in licensing than MS do

The point is, that game is 10m, for a 5 month game. Aside of unknown variables (such as other deals).
Most of ps+ games are 1-3 years old. And majority are ps1,psp,ps2,ps3. Those are very cheap.

3b is alot of money to cover for these. And that is yearly too.

 

[Fbh]

Don't know if loose money but I think they'd make less money and it lower their incentive of making really high budget AAA single player games.
There's a reason Netflix doesn't do Avengers End Game tier movies despite having more paying customers than the complete install base of Ps4, Xb1, Ps5 and SX combined.

As I mentioned in another thread, to me the best solution moving forward would be something similar to movie streaming. Have your $70 dollar launch, and then 6 or 8 months later come to the subscription service

 

[ZywyPL]

Your math is wrong. 50m PS+ users at 15 bucks a month is 9B a year.

Shit, I forgot to multiply it by 12 months xD

So ok, doable, but still - A) it's just two games, whereas they'd obviously had to put more games in a frequent manner. And B) at current state the base 10$ PS+ brings about 6B yearly, for basically free, it's just paid online, but by putting even just those two games on the service, that would mean they'd be losing 2B out of those 6 they get just like that now. I

In other words, with their current model, they get 6B for paid online, plus another 2B from fron their 1P games. So as long as people will keep buying their games for full 70$ in such volumes they just don't have any business in putting the games on day one, only when games will start reaching results like Days Gone, where they put a lot of money into them and the return wasn't quite there. Or maybe when they'll start releasing their GaaS projects, because why rekease games F2P where you can charge monthly for them, and what's more important that would allow the games to potentially reach wider audience, a.k.a. create bigger userbase for MTX

 

[Yoboman]

The point is, that game is 10m, for a 5 month game. Aside of unknown variables (such as other deals).
Most of ps+ games are 1-3 years old. And majority are ps1,psp,ps2,ps3. Those are very cheap.

3b is alot of money to cover for these. And that is yearly too.

We are talking about new games

 

[Bernd Lauert]

Sony are not the ones in need of “good will” they’ve earned that by putting out 5 generations of successful consoles and software. Which is why they can’t keep them on the shelves.

The people who need good will are the ones who completely gave up on their fans last generation.

Xbox fans want sony to follow in microsofts footsteps because they want them to play to microsofts strengths which is pretty much unlimited spending. Its the reason why they never bring up these same arguments for nintendo who still prefer to sell their software.

Any argument that sony should follow microsoft down that money pit know what they’re doing when they suggest it.

The arguments don't make sense for Nintendo because Nintendo is a first party beast with several evergreen titles that keep selling for years at full price.

 

[Dr Bass]

You're not the market. You're actually almost the opposite of the market, judging by the numbers.

And judging by Sony's market numbers, they are doing just fine.

Ask yourself this simple question. If a sub service ended up making you more money wouldn't Sony and Nintendo be scrambling to enact one? This is not tough.

 

[remember_spinal]

The arguments don't make sense for Nintendo because Nintendo is a first party beast with several evergreen titles that keep selling for years at full price.

It doesn’t make sense for any platform who’s 1st party games are actually financially successful.

 

[adamsapple]

Sony are not the ones in need of “good will” they’ve earned that by putting out 5 generations of successful consoles and software. Which is why they can’t keep them on the shelves.

The people who need good will are the ones who completely gave up on their fans last generation.

Xbox fans want sony to follow in microsofts footsteps because they want them to play to microsofts strengths which is pretty much unlimited spending. Its the reason why they never bring up these same arguments for nintendo who still prefer to sell their software.

Any argument that sony should follow microsoft down that money pit know what they’re doing when they suggest it.

The reason people, or I specifically, won't bring up Nintendo is that I have no interest in their software, while the other two have a lot more overlap and studios I like games from.

Also Nintendo will do what Nintendo does, they have been doing that since the beginning while Sony and MS often make reactionary decisions to each other so the precedent is higher.

Speaking for myself, a day 1 release program would certainly make the prospect of buying a PS5 a lot more tempting to me.

 

[remember_spinal]

The reason people, or I specifically, won't bring up Nintendo is that I have no interest in their software, while the other two have a lot more overlap and studios I like games from.

Also Nintendo will do what Nintendo does, they have been doing that since the beginning while Sony and MS often make reactionary decisions to each other so the precedent is higher.

Speaking for myself, a day 1 release program would certainly make the prospect of buying a PS5 a lot more tempting to me.

I’m sure Jim Ryan isn’t lying awake at night tormented over the idea that adamsapples doesn’t want a ps5. In fact, im sure his biggest issue is making even more ps5’s than they already do

 

[adamsapple]

I’m sure Jim Ryan isn’t lying awake at night tormented over the idea that adamsapples doesn’t want a ps5. In fact, im sure his biggest issue is making even more ps5’s than they already do

The fanbase is incredibly welcoming at least

 

[Dr Bass]

The reason people, or I specifically, won't bring up Nintendo is that I have no interest in their software, while the other two have a lot more overlap and studios I like games from.

Also Nintendo will do what Nintendo does, they have been doing that since the beginning while Sony and MS often make reactionary decisions to each other so the precedent is higher.

Speaking for myself, a day 1 release program would certainly make the prospect of buying a PS5 a lot more tempting to me.

Ok, again, why?

Answer that, and you'll you have answer why it's stupid for Sony to do so. How can you not see this?

 

[kingfey]

We are talking about new games.

Don't they do exclusive deals?
That is akin to a service type model. Just that, they will have to sell the game.

They could negotiate deals, like they do with their timed exclusives.

Most of these games wont hit 3m any way. Ff7R took a year to hit 5m. That is the most popular franchise, and a beloved game from Ps past era.

$50m upfront is what Sony can pay them for day1 on the service. (Buying bulk copies is very cheap for Sony and MS. They don't pay retail price).

That is around 1m copy sold at $70 price, after 30% cut.

Also remember, most 3rd party games don't exceed 5m on a single platform. Unless it's gta6, ES6, elden rings, or final fantasy.

That $50m is very beneficial for most 3rd party publishers.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

It doesn’t make sense for any platform who’s 1st party games are actually financially successful.

I know you wish Playstation were like Nintendo, but it simply isn't. Nintendo is a different beast.

 

[adamsapple]

Ok, again, why?

Answer that, and you'll you have answer why it's stupid for Sony to do so. How can you not see this?

Why ? Because the market is more competitive right now than any time in the PS4 vs XBO generation. Why not do things to attract more people to your ecosystem ?

There's a reason I switched to Xbox after being a PS4 owner all last generation.

Plus Jim himself has already left a massive door open for day one releases in the PR interviews when they announced the PS+ rebranding. Day 1 releases will come to PS+ before this generation is over, count on it

 

[Dick Jones]

Why ? Because the market is more competitive right now than any time in the PS4 vs XBO generation. Why not do things to attract more people to your ecosystem ?

There's a reason I switched to Xbox after being a PS4 owner all last generation.

Plus Jim himself has already left a massive door open for day one releases in the PR interviews when they announced the PS+ rebranding. Day 1 releases will come to PS+ before this generation is over, count on it

Why would someone who supports Xbox, the third placed console manufacturers in a three horse race, want the market leader to follow the Xbox brand. Wouldn't you rather Sony failed?

 

[Topher]

I'm just laughing at the idea that some think we could answer the OP's question by looking at that simple pie chart.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

Why would someone who supports Xbox, the third placed console manufacturers in a three horse race, want the market leader to follow the Xbox brand. Wouldn't you rather Sony failed?

By which metric is Xbox at third place? They're second by revenue.

 

[adamsapple]

Why would someone who supports Xbox, the third placed console manufacturers in a three horse race, want the market leader to follow the Xbox brand. Wouldn't you rather Sony failed?

Why would I want either of them to fail lol. Nothing I've ever said should lead anyone to think that.

Ideally I want them to both provide the same day one release program.

 

[ethomaz]

So GamePass is profitable? Not being contentious. Legit question.

You won’t get a direct reply.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

By which metric is Xbox at third place? They're second by revenue.

Good lord Bernd lmao

 

[Dick Jones]

By which metric is Xbox at third place? They're second by revenue.

Profit

 

[The_Mike]

They probably wouldn't.

But it's more fun to tell your stock holders that your game sold 2 million instead of 200k and rest is from a subscription.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

Profit

If you're talking about profit, Nintendo is by far the market leader, not Sony. We also don't know how profitable Xbox is (I assume it's below Nintendo).

 

[Captain Toad]

Duh? Sony puts out a lot of very expensive games that go on to sell 10+ million copies. That's a LOT of revenue to give up.

 

[DeepEnigma]

GamePassvidians be wild in the army of witness door knocking when they know the real answers.

Why not mention Nintendo too?