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[Deleted member 20920]

/sniffs air/

Smell that? That's the waft of a hundred GAF corporate apologists in this thread.


OP is right. For me, I'd consider it a bit silly to invest in PSN titles for the moment (unless you're considering your expense a rental, rather than a purchase). It's disappointing that the industry heavyweights in the video game industry don't have their shit sorted in regards to backwards compatibility. They rely on indifference and ignorance to compensate for lack of foresight and technical shortcuts made on future platforms.

It's not about being an apologist my dear. It's weighing the other options they could have gone with and what is really important to me. And also being vaguely informed about why Sony did what they have to do.

I want to buy a next gen console because I care about next gen games. Whether it plays legacy games or not doesn't matter to me. BC is good to have but not madantory. PSN is not going to disappear. Your PSN games are not going to disappear. Your PS3 is not going to disappear and even if it does you can probably buy a cheap one years from now.

Sony's other option would be to include a Cell in their console and increase its costs again. Their mistake was in using Cell for this gen and they most certainly do not want to continue making the same mistake and increase their costs yet again by having Cell in PS4 in addition to PS4 parts.

 

[Palette Swap]

To be fair, these devices were only backwards compatible with the previous gen. They still ended up putting a time limit, so to speak, on your purchases.

So far the consoles with the best BC were launch ps3's, because they could played all previous PlayStation titles. That was rather short lived.

Phones are a much better example, and have drastically changed how people view digital distribution. You're not buying an app for your Nexus 2. You're buying an app for Android, which you expect to work on all future Android devices. Same should hold true for consoles, but hardware has become a limiting factor.

Spot on.
There's a number of platforms where the premise of digital purchases is a measure of platform agnosticism.
Sure, there are technical unfeasabilities and this was never promised in any way, shape or form but it isn't far fetched for people to intuitively expect it when digital music, books, movies and comics do that, as well as mobile apps and Steam.

 

[Marty Chinn]

/sniffs air/

Smell that? That's the waft of a hundred GAF corporate apologists in this thread.


OP is right. For me, I'd consider it a bit silly to invest in PSN titles for the moment (unless you're considering your expense a rental, rather than a purchase). It's disappointing that the industry heavyweights in the video game industry don't have their shit sorted in regards to backwards compatibility. They rely on indifference and ignorance to compensate for lack of foresight and technical shortcuts made on future platforms.

Or you don't understand the complexity of the issue and what it costs to do so.

 

[sono]

Reminds me I need to create a ps3 digital content archive. All wonrt be available on PSN forever.

 

[bunbun777]

No problem just:

transfer from ps3 to vita,

transfer from vita to ps4*, tadaaaaa.





*your results may differ.

 

[BocoDragon]

No problem just:

transfer from ps3 to vita,

transfer from vita to ps4*, tadaaaaa.





*your results may differ.

Sounds like troll physics

 

[Foil]

I stopped buying PSN content over a year ago due to the fear that nothing would transfer. I'm glad I did that.

I can't see myself buying another digital item on PS3.

I get why people would stop buying them on PSN but what I don't get is why they would still continue to buy disc versions. You won't be able to play either Disc or PSn versions when your PS3 dies and none is available.

I can sell/trade the disc versions.

 

[Xbudz]

This. The PS4 won't affect PS3 digital sales.

Unless those PS3 owners were hoping to "trade-up"... not everyone collects consoles.
We shall grow past this once Gaikai is running.

 

[Poona]

I don't get that logic at all. If you have the tools to use and download the game, why does another system matter in that initial purchase?

Does the PS3 stop working when PS4 drops??

Well I've stopped buying all ps3 software (retail and from psn) since the announcement, and only buying 360 stuff now (with the hope and expectation that MS is allowing our investment with their retail and xbla releases to follow onto the next Xbox).

 

[Aselith]

That has nothing to do with the fact that it's digital. It has to do with the fact that it's the same hardware architecture. It's "free" to implement backwards compatibility.

Someday there will be iPhones that don't play today's apps or PCs that won't play all old Steam games and YOU'LL SEE.

This has happened before on PC and people made it work.

 

[Deleted member 20920]

I stopped buying PSN content over a year ago due to the fear that nothing would transfer. I'm glad I did that.

I can't see myself buying another digital item on PS3.



I can sell/trade the disc versions.

That's an angle and reason I can work with/understand. But I've almost never sold any of my games though.

 

[Angel Abaddon]

The argument "next gen is for next gen" makes absolutely no fucking sense. You only have to look at some of the high selling xbla games to see that those lines have blurred. Unless you're telling me games like Fez, Braid and Mega Man 9/10 could only be achieved with the unique power of the current gen.

 

[arglebargle]

Maybe it's why they gave me 10 bucks to burn.

why didnt i get this? was it for ps+ only or something? does sony hate me? do i not know how to check my messages? where did you get it?

 

[Deleted member 20920]

The argument "next gen is for next gen" makes absolutely no fucking sense. You only have to look at some of the high selling xbla games to see that those lines have blurred. Unless you're telling me games like Fez, Braid and Mega Man 9/10 could only be achieved with the unique power of the current gen.

I don't care about how powerful the next gen consoles are. I care about what games are on these new consoles. It's not about power but about what games will eventually land on what consoles.

 

[BocoDragon]

You know... if BC is something that just bothers you... you really are in the position where you're a nerd who should probably keep the old console around. I do. You must realize that most of the market doesn't care.

This has happened before on PC and people made it work.

Well.. though emulators and such from the homebrew community (ie DosBox). It's not like it was built into Windows, or made by Microsoft.

Maybe PS4 will be hacked and in 10 years we can run a homebrew emulator that runs PS3 games. That would be the equivalent to PC.

 

[dejan]

Well, I haven't spent a single cent yet on PSN and I sure as fuck won't start now.

 

[Cartman86]

For the average person it probably won't matter enough. It certainly could help with parents, but the kids who want it are going to find a way to get it. Starting with the PS4 I will probably start to expect my purchases to carry over if this new architecture is successful. Even that isn't entirely expected like my phone purchases though. I buy a new phone ever couple years, and there is no technical reason why apps won't work or can't be updated to work. Games are much more difficult, and I don't get rid an old console like I would a phone. The real issue here is for people who sell there games. They are pretty much fucked unless the laws change. The issue that effects everyone though is hard drive failures and network shutdowns. Right now most digital content is sold the right way where it's account based and you re-download as many times as you want. The second though that Valve, Microsoft, or Sony shut down the servers that let you re-download that content there is going to be hell to pay. They will need to either strip the DRM, never shut down the servers (impossible), or allow for movement and copying off the closed down hardware. The 360 I believe lets you do this with digital games. You can copy it to a hard drive, USB and I would assume you could clone that USB drive to a PC for backup. Vita stuff as well. It could all be easier though. I don't think they are going to head all this off ahead of time though. It's going to be an issue when it's too late.

 

[BocoDragon]

Well, I haven't spent a single cent yet on PSN and I sure as fuck won't start now.

But here's the weird part for me.. help me understand... doesn't that extend to physical PS3 discs too? They won't play either.

 

[Snakeyes]

To me, setting up an digital distribution platform is also a sort of commitment to a system that allows subscribers to transfer their purchases over to newer hardware. Can you imagine the shitstorm that would ensue if Apple decided not to allow people to move their iOS apps to the next generation of iDevices?

 

[Deleted member 20920]

To me, setting up an digital distribution platform is also a sort of commitment to a system that allows subscribers to transfer their purchases over to newer hardware. Can you imagine the shitstorm that would ensue if Apple decided not to allow people to move their iOS apps to the next generation of iDevices?

We will know if and when they move on from iOS and iPhones and come up with a new device in the near future Personally I think the ramifications for phones not letting apps be transfered would be larger than in Gaming. Since they started off letting consumer carry their accounts and purchases right from the beginning and the number of phones owners far exceeds gamers.

 

[Quasar]

Well it certainly has me uninterested in buying psn or xbox games digitally at this point. Which I thought was the reason for the xbl/psn sales.

Until I switch I will make do with the psnplus freebies and stuff from steam.

 

[BocoDragon]

To me, setting up an digital distribution platform is also a sort of commitment to a system that allows subscribers to transfer their purchases over to newer hardware. Can you imagine the shitstorm that would ensue if Apple decided not to allow people to move their iOS apps to the next generation of iDevices?

Do you think that's some sort of promise to the consumer? They let you run old iOS apps on new phones because they have to do literally nothing to enable that.

If you have an architecture change, as with the shift from custom Mac processors to Intel processors, yeah... old programs can get left behind. It will happen to phones someday.

 

[madmackem]

yea but at least you stay with them. the psn games if they take down the service you wont.

How so you can play most of your buys in offline mode.

 

[Snakeyes]

Well it certainly has me uninterested in buying psn or xbox games digitally at this point. Which I thought was the reason for the xbl/psn sales.

Oddly, I think Microsoft has a better shot at making BC work in Durango if we take into account what happened with the 360. They might even use it as a major selling point.

 

[CyclopsRock]

I don't think it'd affect my decisions at all. I'm not all that fussed about backwards compatibility and the fact that these games come via the internet rather than via a shop doesn't change that.

 

[BocoDragon]

Oddly, I think Microsoft has a better shot at making BC work in Durango if we take into account what happened with the 360. They might even use it as a major selling point.

I would not be surprised at all... just because Sony has said no BC, and Microsoft will go for that chink in the armor...

 

[Quasar]

Oddly, I think Microsoft has a better shot at making BC work in Durango if we take into account what happened with the 360. They might even use it as a major selling point.

While true I'm unwilling till they spellout both BC and their plans to allow people to redownload 360 games. Just how long will Sony/MS keep the servers running. Or do I need to download and backup every game I bought.

Or do I just say to hell with it and wait for pc emulation to get there and then play what I guess will be the whole catalog available on the internet.

 

[IrishNinja]

"why should you assume your purchases would carry over, like a competent ecosystem found pretty much everywhere else? LOL"

man corporate apologism is really big on GAF right now, shit's far more troubling than console wars

 

[Snakeyes]

Do you think that's some sort of promise to the consumer? They let you run old iOS apps on new phones because they have to do literally nothing to enable that.

If you have an architecture change, as with the shift from custom Mac processors to Intel processors, yeah... old programs can get left behind. It will happen to phones someday.

We'll see, but I just can't picture a company that prides itself on familiarity and its vast app ecosystem locking out purchased content because of a hardware transition. At worst, they'll charge a small fee to update the software to a version that's compatible with the new architecture.

 

[Lain]

Now that people know psn games won't transfer then wouldn't the digital games suffer on ps4? They will not want to buy it because they know it won't transfer.

I wouldn't say people won't buy them outright, but I'd guess many will be wary of buying them, at least for the stuff that's more costly.

 

[Quasar]

"why should you assume your purchases would carry over, like a competent ecosystem found pretty much everywhere else? LOL"

man corporate apologism is really big on GAF right now, shit's far more troubling than console wars

For some of us, its just realism. Would you prefer Sony put out a 700$ PS4 that includes a Cell and Other bits to enable bc?

Even with being able to download previous purchases, I don't really know how long is enough? I guess one generation. I don't expect the 360/PS3 networks to be running in 2020 and I don't think I'd be angry. I would prefer them to unlock drm at the end though from a preservation standpoint.

Of course I also wish MMO makers would give away their server software to communities when they kill a MMO. Let them continue to run the MMO that they love.

 

[Quasar]

We'll see, but I just can't picture a company that prides itself on familiarity and its vast app ecosystem locking out purchased content because of a hardware transition. At worst, they'll charge a small fee to update the software to a version that's compatible with the new architecture.

Well that would be up to developers assuming hey are even around anymore. Lets see what happens I guess when we see Apple switch to arm for computers.

 

[Ozzykamikaze]

It's what I've been saying for weeks. Of course most people are gonna try to downplay it so that Sony's only shown in a good light.

You wouldn't want to portray them in a negative light, though, would you?

 

[Router]

Now that people know psn games won't transfer then wouldn't the digital games suffer on ps4? They will not want to buy it because they know it won't transfer.

I buy a game to work on a system. Not in the hopes that it will work on another system sometime in the future.

 

[BocoDragon]

We'll see, but I just can't picture a company that prides itself on familiarity and its vast app ecosystem locking out purchased content because of a hardware transition. At worst, they'll charge a small fee to update the software to a version that's compatible with the new architecture.

Just because of how easy it is? Yeah, I'd expect an emulator/wrapper for older phone content when they update the hardware. Or upgrades, as you say.

But PS4 emulating PS3? Surely a harder proposition than iPhone 7 is in emulating iPhone 1-6 (or whatever)

Basically, how "crucial" to the market is directly related to how easy it is to implement. Most of the market will be fine with any cut-and-run from old software. So if the huge cost of emulation isn't worth it, we won't get it. It's never been a "promise" to customers... it's just something we'll get if it's easy enough.

PS3/PSN on PS4 is NOT easy enough.

Also, the emulation solutions for different architecture in a successive generation is usually spotty and full of glitches. IMO, if PS4 played PS3/PSN, I doubt I'd want to play it on there. It's going to be imperfect. That's part of the reason why I don't care that their shitty BC solution isn't there at all. Do people understand this part?

 

[Chinpoko_Master]

Is it possible that they'd let you stream your old PSN games from Gaikai in the future?

 

[Camp Lo]

Well I've stopped buying all ps3 software (retail and from psn) since the announcement, and only buying 360 stuff now (with the hope and expectation that MS is allowing our investment with their retail and xbla releases to follow onto the next Xbox).

Wtf does that have to do with what I said? PSN titles, barring games that require online if an unforeseeable server shutdown happens, would still work on the console you originally purchased it on.

You feel like your investment is moot if it can no longer be transferred to the latest console and I feel like that's the most bogus shit I have ever heard.

 

[BocoDragon]

Is it possible that they'd let you stream your old PSN games from Gaikai in the future?

Yes, I think so.

 

[dallow_bg]

So silly to see all these people say they haven't spent or will not spend more money on PSN.

So many great digital games they've missed. Was the best thing about this gen. Can't wait for the next.

 

[Robso]

Not for me. I'll still buy PSN titles. Personally, once I finish a game I never have the urge to go back and finish it again really.

 

[Chinpoko_Master]

Yes, I think so.

Well, I hope it happens. Until it does, I guess I'll keep my PS3 around.

 

[BocoDragon]

Well, I hope it happens. Until it does, I guess I'll keep my PS3 around.

I hope it happens too.

But I don't want any hint of imperfection or lag. I'll probably still keep my PS3 around

 

[Jay Sosa]

Now that people know psn games won't transfer then wouldn't the digital games suffer on ps4? They will not want to buy it because they know it won't transfer.

I do think so yes. But I also hope that this is an exception cause the PS3 architecture was so horribly shitty. Wouldn't bet on it though.

 

[BocoDragon]

I do think so yes. But I also hope that this is an exception cause the PS3 architecture was so horribly shitty. Wouldn't bet on it though.

I think they would have enabled BC if it were easy. PS4 is just a different beast.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Unless those PS3 owners were hoping to "trade-up"... not everyone collects consoles.
We shall grow past this once Gaikai is running.

I have my doubts. Gaikai won't be in a position to offer a good level for years. Be it through poor download speeds or simply games not being on the service.

Gaikai is a concession, a balm to soothe the festering wound of no hardware or software based backwared compatibility, nothing more. It won't be viable for years.

 

[Skyzard]

Yes to some degree I think so and more as time passes, although I assume quite a few are keeping their PS3s but even then it feels somewhat discontinued, although I doubt it will slow too much overall what with it still being popular for the masses and the likely slow adoption of next-gen. Many PSN only titles should also come to Vita, it's beating the PS3 store already - although that was the store itself on Vita, not PSN only iirc.

 

[IrishNinja]

For some of us, its just realism. Would you prefer Sony put out a 700$ PS4 that includes a Cell and Other bits to enable bc?

Even with being able to download previous purchases, I don't really know how long is enough? I guess one generation. I don't expect the 360/PS3 networks to be running in 2020 and I don't think I'd be angry. I would prefer them to unlock drm at the end though from a preservation standpoint.

Of course I also wish MMO makers would give away their server software to communities when they kill a MMO. Let them continue to run the MMO that they love.

no, i've said i wish a legacy model existed as an option but i realize why it's not feasible/highly desirable. i have an entire thread on why i think treating gaming as disposable entertainment is bad all around, this example aside - long story short, i think it's easier to make weird hardware choices like ken did (putting us in this spot) because both companies and some consumer attitudes allow it, if not foster it, by subscribing to a mentality that only the next thing matters/just keep the last system, even if the company (sony in this case) had 20 years of an excellent software library and several systems supporting it fully up to this point, hence my natural inclination to show unhappiness at that changing.

it is what it is, but some attitudes here (not yours necessarily) i find rather troubling.
as to your other points: id like that too, and it's a common point in steam threads, but even if a big company like sony went under, that doesn't mean the 3rd parties they had agreements with did, so flicking a switch and stripping their DRM sadly strikes me as highly unlikely...though with legacy stuff like a dead MMO, i absolutely agree with you that it'd be really great to see.

You feel like your investment is moot if it can no longer be transferred to the latest console and I feel like that's the most bogus shit I have ever heard.

as a consumer, this will be the first playstation i (hypothetically) buy that disconnects me from several decades of prior purchases, and marries them to the unstable hardware of my troubled launch 60 GB. these concerns strike you as "bogus shit", really? awesome

 

[LiK]

Just wait for them to be free for PS+

 

[TGO]

Its effective my purchases all together, DLC is not gonna happen anymore and I ain't buying anything off PSN either
Those PSN classics? Vita only now
Even retail I'm a bit offish with, yeah I'll buy GOW & Beyond etc
But some stuff I'll just wait till they are cheap and limited editions.....damn right it limited lol
Its not a major problem but I do like to play a old classic now and then but with the current gen being stronger then people say, nextgen will be gathering dust next to my TV without that BC
and that is a problem, you guys probably don't see it
But your girlfriend will when she asks you "why did you buy a new console to play on you old all the time instead"
And the answer to the fact theres load of AAA games still coming out for current gen would be the same
And streaming games we already own for a price is a no go, if there games I don't own and want I'm happy to pay for, but I don't want to see a full retail price next to the Uncharted series or GOW when I already own them.

 

[duckroll]

I feel there are different arguments going on in the same thread here. There is the "is the lack of BC is a good thing for consumers" argument, and the answer to that is clearly no. The benefits of the PS4 being an easier dev environment might be a worthwhile trade off, but there's still a disadvantage to consumers as a consequence.

But the one I'm more interested in is the premise the thread was actually started on, which is "will consumers at large be bothered enough by the lack of BC to not want to buy current-gen digital games", and I feel the answer to that is also no. When it comes to entertainment and recreational hobbies, people generally buy stuff to use them as is. The concept of collecting or long term usability is very much a minor factor. It's nice if it is there, but not a deal breaker at all.