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Wouldn't the PSN digital games suffer on PS4 now?

Wait, digital games won't transfer?? When was that announced? Shitty.

PS4 won't play PS3 games. Downloadable PS3 games are PS3 games.

We shall see, can't blame me for being cautious though.

Considering what Microsoft did to original Xbox downloads, no, I can't blame you for being concerned about it. PS3's PSN is probably a lot more forward-thinking than last generations version of Xbox Live was, though.
 
Marty, you almost completely sidestepped my point, just to offer a generic lecture on the challenges of hardware emulation that I'm already well aware of. I acknowledge the baseline challenges here, but what I'm talking about are massive overhead challenges that console manufacturers have brought upon themselves, heaped on top of those baselines, because they got delusions of grandeur about "owning the living room" and spending too much time trying to outmaneuver each other rather than _working together_, in the process losing total focus on the core value proposition of the product they were trying to sell. What I want is hardly unrealistic if we just stop condoning dysfunctional behavior, even applauding it in many cases.

Why should it be so beyond the realm of reality to think that a piece of hardware built with a focus on cost-efficiency and longevity shouldn't also be able to achieve enough depreciation of cost and further manufacturing efficiency after 5-6 years of iterative refinement in order to be incorporated cost effectively in the next architecture?

If Sony or MS or Nintendo make bad calls, it shouldn't be our job to cover for them, whether they did it out of spite for the customer or not.

But what was standard back then? It was about providing a fast, powerful, low cost solution that was optimized for high performance graphics. Look at what the options were throughout the history of gaming. Specialized hardware was created because these were specialized devices. As time grew on, they started to converge more which is why you're starting to see that happen in hardware design as well. Things got way complex the route they were going, but it was what was in demand to begin with. Those demands have changed over time. Let's look at two other examples.

1) Apple changing from Power PC to Intel

Here's a case where Apple realized they had to switch hardware for the benefit of their future. At that point in time, a lot of things became incompatible moving forward. It was a significant shift that was a necessary step in order to thrive in the future.

2) Microsoft adopting ARM

Microsoft has now felt the need to adopt ARM because of their low power, high performance need in portable devices. This comes at the expense of software compatibility. Microsoft's hope is that you start now and at some point the software library will be built across both ARM and Intel based off the Windows 8 platform. Fortunately Microsoft doesn't have to dump x86 all together.

These are two examples where major companies decided to bite a bullet at the expense of software compatibility for the sake of the future. This is not the first time backward compatibility has been broken, nor will it be the last. At some point things need to change and there's a bit of a growing pain as a result. I can hardly fault the game industry for having to transition from specialized hardware to now more common hardware given the changes and advances in technology. Consoles used to be cutting edge and well ahead of the PC market. That's not the case anymore and Sony and Microsoft are adapting to it.

They could make something external like the Power Base Converter that Sega had with the Genesis/Mega Drive.

No they couldn't. It's not that simple. Even then, the Power Base Convert was simply a Master System plugging in on top of a Genesis. So now you want a PS3 to plug into a PS4 and pay an additional $200 for it instead of just having your existing PS3 hooked up now?
 
PS4 won't play PS3 games. Downloadable PS3 games are PS3 games.



Considering what Microsoft did to original Xbox downloads, no, I can't blame you for being concerned about it. PS3's PSN is probably a lot more forward-thinking than last generations version of Xbox Live was, though.

Except that people didn't buy shit on the original Xbox. I spend a ton of money on PSN. You know what happens when I buy something on steam, or amazon, or origin, gog, fucking the virtual console, all of it works on my new hardware. I could buy galaxy s2 and all of my games would work on a different manufactured android phone. This is playstation 3 to 4. My games should transfer.
 
Unless they exclude them from being shown as purchases to my PSN account there is no problem IMHO. Why would it matter if they transfer or not?
And by "transferable" I suppose OP means "installable" and "playable".
Those are PS3 PSN games and the same will apply for PS4 PSN games. They will not be transferable to PS3.
The EULA states that they are playable to up to two consoles. Not two console generations.
 
Except that people didn't buy shit on the original Xbox. I spend a ton of money on PSN. You know what happens when I buy something on steam, or amazon, or origin, gog, fucking the virtual console, all of it works on my new hardware. I could buy galaxy s2 and all of my games would work on a different manufactured android phone. This is playstation 3 to 4. My games should transfer.

You are very obviously unaware of what "This is PlayStation 3 to 4" actually means. Hint: PS4 is not an iterative upgrade of the PS3. It's not like a phone. And it's not like a PC where games are designed to adapt to whatever hardware you try to run it on that meets the minimum requirements. The PS4 is about as different from a PS3 as an Xbox is.

Also, yes, people "bought shit" on Xbox Live last generation.
 
Most people don't have the space nor the desire to keep outdated electronics. Especially if they're married.

What does being married have to do with anything? I'm married and I still have a PS2 and GameCube under my TV. They're not even plugged in.
 
You are very obviously unaware of what "This is PlayStation 3 to 4" actually means. Hint: PS4 is not an iterative upgrade of the PS3. It's not like a phone. And it's not like a PC where games are designed to adapt to whatever hardware you try to run it on that meets the minimum requirements. The PS4 is about as different from a PS3 as an Xbox is.

Also, yes, people "bought shit" on Xbox Live last generation.

Maybe so, but in the end as a paying consumer, i don't really care about their reasons as to WHY it doesn't work, it's their job to MAKE it work!

As is, this is simply unacceptable.
 
Except that people didn't buy shit on the original Xbox. I spend a ton of money on PSN. You know what happens when I buy something on
Not if you play on a Mac or Linux.

, or amazon,

Video, music, and books are not even remotely close in complexity.

or origin,

Not if you play on a Mac

fucking the virtual console,

Not if you go from Wii to Wii U

I could buy galaxy s2 and all of my games would work on a different manufactured android phone.

Not guaranteed. You've never noticed that some Android software works for some phones at not others? You have never heard one of the biggest complaints about so many different pieces of hardware out there that there's software incompatibility?

Maybe so, but in the end as a paying consumer, i don't really care about their reasons as to WHY it doesn't work, it's their job to MAKE it work!

As is, this is simply unacceptable.

People should care about the reason because people often bitch about things that are unreasonable. A bit of education on how things work could go a long way for everyone. People who claim they want BC also are unlikely to want to pay for BC. People want magic, but magic isn't real.
 
This!

hardware is something you REPLACE with better after a while.

In a world with AppStore and smartphones backward compabilty is EXPECTED.
I would be furious if apps didn't work on a new apple iPad etc.

The lacking backward comp is, by far, the worst thing about the ps4
 
Maybe so, but in the end as a paying consumer, i don't really care about their reasons as to WHY it doesn't work, it's their job to MAKE it work!

As is, this is simply unacceptable.

Well their options are to either stick with the dead end cell technology that failed to take off or produce another expensive console that about a dozen people will actually buy. Ever think that maybe they, you know, can't make it work and still put out a desirable product? Putting your fingers in your ears because you don't like the reality of the situation accomplishes nothing.
 
This!

hardware is something you REPLACE with better after a while.

In a world with AppStore and smartphones backward compabilty is EXPECTED.
I would be furious if apps didn't work on a new apple iPad etc.

The lacking backward comp is, by far, the worst thing about the ps4

What if you bought an Android phone instead? Would you complain about your software not working?
 
Unless they exclude them from being shown as purchases to my PSN account there is no problem IMHO. Why would it matter if they transfer or not?
And by "transferable" I suppose OP means "installable" and "playable".
Those are PS3 PSN games and the same will apply for PS4 PSN games. They will not be transferable to PS3.
The EULA states that they are playable to up to two consoles. Not two console generations.

Yea but ps4 is still a playstation.
 
Well their options are to either stick with the dead end cell technology that failed to take off or produce another expensive console that about a dozen people will actually buy. Ever think that maybe they, you know, can't make it work and still put out a desirable product? Putting your fingers in your ears because you don't like the reality of the situation accomplishes nothing.

Possible that they truly CANNOT make it work technically...

However, if that is the case then i can't help but feel kind of "cheated" because if i had known this from the very beginning of the PSN era, i sure as hell would NOT have bought as many games as i have now, and no one can tell me they didn't know this in advance but chose not to disclose this information (which makes sense business wise of course, but it's still a dickish move)
 
Yea but ps4 is still a playstation.

Exactly! Wasn't it once Sony's big "idea" to integrate everything into their Playstation brand and family? Crossplay etc., buy your PSP games on PS3 PSN, transfer em, play em on each of the devices... Play PS1 games on PS2, PS3, PSP, Vita etc.

and now this...?
 
Is it? PlayStation is a brand, not a single piece of hardware. PlayStation 4 is a PlayStation the same way a PlayStation Portable is a PlayStation.

And the Playstation brand is not... Compatible with other Playstation brand stuff? Not even an immediate successor

You cannot defend this, it just plain
 
This!

hardware is something you REPLACE with better after a while.

In a world with AppStore and smartphones backward compabilty is EXPECTED.
I would be furious if apps didn't work on a new apple iPad etc.

The lacking backward comp is, by far, the worst thing about the ps4

All Apple iPhones and iPads have used CPUs based on ARM architecture and PowerVR GPUs.
 
Is it? PlayStation is a brand, not a single piece of hardware. PlayStation 4 is a PlayStation the same way a PlayStation Portable is a PlayStation.

Doesn't change the fact that it's bs though. It's their fault for putting in the crap cell in the first place. They boasted about BC with ps2 and ps3 and now that BC will be that much more important it doesn't happen to be there with ps4.
 
And the Playstation brand is not... Compatible with other Playstation brand stuff?

Not always? Played any PSP games on PS3 lately? Think you'll be playing a lot of Vita games on PS4?

You cannot defend this, it just plain

YOu can if you know what you're talking about.

Come up with a practical way for a PS4 to play PS3 games and then you can complain when they don't do it.
 
2006 PS3 early adopters: BC is a must, you are ridiculous for downplaying it's importance!!
2013 PS4 early adopters: BC is useless, if you want to play ps3 games keep your PS3, you are ridiculous for even suggesting it's a must have feature!!

What a difference 7 years can make.
 
Haha well Sony makes both Playstation 3 and 4 if I am not mistaken?

Well why not, the music you bought in iTunes for your iOS device would work on Android, so why not the software? Why do you draw a distinction there? Or why doesn't your iPhone software work on your Mac? They're both made by Apple? Why doesn't PlayStation Vita games work on the PlayStation 3? Is it the name? Is it the company? Is it the platform? Why do you draw distinctions on why it should be compatible in one area but not the next. If you can draw those distinctions, why is it so hard to understand that this is a completely different platform architecture and software compatibility is not trivial compared to books, movies, and music?

2006 PS3 early adopters: BC is a must, you are ridiculous for downplaying it's importance!!
2013 PS4 early adopters: BC is useless, if you want to play ps3 games keep your PS3, you are ridiculous for even suggesting it's a must have feature!!

What a difference 7 years can make.

To be fair, my stance hasn't changed in 7 years. If BC is possible, I'm all for the bonus, if it's not, and there's a good reason, I'm ok with it and it's not the end of the world. It's the same stance I had going from a NES to a SNES.
 
But what was standard back then? It was about providing a fast, powerful, low cost solution that was optimized for high performance graphics. Look at what the options were throughout the history of gaming. Specialized hardware was created because these were specialized devices. As time grew on, they started to converge more which is why you're starting to see that happen in hardware design as well. Things got way complex the route they were going, but it was what was in demand to begin with. Those demands have changed over time. Let's look at two other examples.
It's always been specialized hardware, Marty. Even when MS jumped in with the Xbox and supposedly brought more generic PC architecture to consoles. They've all been closed boxes with unique, proprietary architectures. But with a 5-6 yr period to iterate the engineering and cost efficiency of the build, why should that be a problem if you keep BC in mind as an underlying priority?

-MB- said:
2006 PS3 early adopters: BC is a must, you are ridiculous for downplaying it's importance!!
2013 PS4 early adopters: BC is useless, if you want to play ps3 games keep your PS3, you are ridiculous for even suggesting it's a must have feature!!
Ahem. I was a PS3 early adopter. I am not yet a PS4 early adopter. No one is. Go peddle the gross generalizations elsewhere.
 
It's always been specialized hardware, Marty. Even when MS jumped in with the Xbox and supposedly brought more generic PC architecture to consoles. They've all been closed boxes with unique, proprietary architectures. But with a 5-6 yr period to iterate the engineering and cost efficiency of the build, why should that be a problem if you keep BC in mind as an underlying priority?

Closed boxes yes, but the design on these things have been pretty drastically different than PC style hardware. Heck, just look how drastically different the PS1, PS2, and PS3 architecture is. An x86 is more of a general purpose CPU where as the CPUs used in the past have been much more specialized that catered toward fast calculations for the purpose of graphic computation. As 3D graphics pretty much started from scratch and drastically changed over the last decade, the hardware to utilize that also has. General purpose hardware didn't fit then, it does now.

That's for when they introduce VC on wiiu, those who already have VC content in vWii mode, can get that version for a small upgrade fee.

Ah, my bad on that. Easy to see why one might think it though.
 
To be fair, my stance hasn't changed in 7 years. If BC is possible, I'm all for the bonus, if it's not, and there's a good reason, I'm ok with it and it's not the end of the world. It's the same stance I had going from a NES to a SNES.

VERY good point you brought up there, and it would be perfectly valid too if only...

the quality of hardware wouldn't have changed so dramatically over the years and not to forget that cart based systems cannot be compared at all to disc based ones in terms of longevity.

aka the NES and SNES weren't POS consoles that break down when looked at funny

I'd have NO issues at all buying NES or SNES games today, i don't even give it a second thought whether they work anymore or not, in fact i bought a new copy of Banjo Kazooie the other day for my N64, worked like charm, why wouldn't it?

For PS2 already though... i am wary of buying games now and i still keep 2 models sealed in my closet for the day my (now 3rd) PS2 breaks down, and PS3 will be much worse i fear even...
 
Marty, you're still just talking around my central point. Stop responding if you're going to keep doing that.
 
2006 PS3 early adopters: BC is a must, you are ridiculous for downplaying it's importance!!
2013 PS4 early adopters: BC is useless, if you want to play ps3 games keep your PS3, you are ridiculous for even suggesting it's a must have feature!!

What a difference 7 years can make.

I keep meaning to look up those old threads but when I think about it I'm on my phone.
 
Marty, you're still just talking around my central point. Stop responding if you're going to keep doing that.

I'm not talking around it. You're failing to understand how specialized hardware is central to the performance of the system. One of the biggest problems if you looked at PCs and you can look at both Apple and Microsoft for examples of this is legacy hardware. Maintaining older instruction sets and hardware compatibility in the evolution of the processor has held things back in many ways. By not being held by a burden if incorporating previous architectures for the sake of legacy, it allows you to cram more into the processor, to make it faster, cheaper, and so forth. These were designed for one purpose rather than being a general purpose processor.
 
You're failing to understand how specialized hardware is central to the performance of the system.
No, you're just assuming that must be the case simply because I don't agree with you that BC is a bridge too far.

Address the question I actually asked: "But with a 5-6 yr period to iterate the engineering and cost efficiency of the build, why should that be a problem if you keep BC in mind as an underlying priority?"
 
No, you're just assuming that must be the case simply because I don't agree with you that BC is a bridge too far.

Address the question I actually asked: "But with a 5-6 yr period to iterate the engineering and cost efficiency of the build, why should that be a problem if you keep BC in mind as an underlying priority?"

I did. It's because it can hinder the cost, size, and performance of the chip. BC isn't just some free thing that you can plan ahead for without any type of penalty.
 
In my opinion you have to be a special case to even defend sony boneheaded decision to terminate any sort of game playability from this generation on to the next.


Actually sony went one step ahead this time. They managed to cancel 16 years of legacy games from their system. This means that you have to hook up old geriatric systems just to play them.

Like hooking up pentium 2 to play songs from 1998. Such a thing would never happened under the old guard at sony who believed in making the transistion to next gen alot easier for consumers. Instead the clowns at sony want to sell us some magic pixie in the sky streaming alternative bullshit.

So why would any sane gamer buy any digital game from sony when they pull such nonsense on consumers? Picture this. My old ps3 dies. I have only got 400 bucks. picture three scenarios

a) Buy a ps4 console which is fully bc. Play new games and still have access to old games.

b) buy a ps4 console which is not bc. Play new games lose access to old games.

c) buy ps3. access to old games but next gen still out of reach.

As a consumer you dont even an example to show how wack this thing is. Anyways i ranted enough on this topic. Not buying a ps4 at all at launch. I have done a launch buy for all three consoles prior but this time i will not out of sheer principle.
 
In my opinion you have to be a special case to even defend sony boneheaded decision to terminate any sort of game playability from this generation on to the next.

Again, come up with a practical way to play PS3 games on a PS4 and then you can say it's "boneheaded" not to do it.
 
In my opinion you have to be a special case to even defend sony boneheaded decision to terminate any sort of game playability from this generation on to the next.


Actually sony went one step ahead this time. They managed to cancel 16 years of legacy games from their system. This means that you have to hook up old geriatric systems just to play them.

Like hooking up pentium 2 to play songs from 1998. Such a thing would never happened under the old guard at sony who believed in making the transistion to next gen alot easier for consumers. Instead the clowns at sony want to sell us some magic pixie in the sky streaming alternative bullshit.

So why would any sane gamer buy any digital game from sony when they pull such nonsense on consumers? Picture this. My old ps3 dies. I have only got 400 bucks. picture three scenarios

a) Buy a ps4 console which is fully bc. Play new games and still have access to old games.

b) buy a ps4 console which is not bc. Play new games lose access to old games.

c) buy ps3. access to old games but next gen still out of reach.

As a consumer you dont even an example to show how wack this thing is. Anyways i ranted enough on this topic. Not buying a ps4 at all at launch. I have done a launch buy for all three consoles prior but this time i will not out of sheer principle.

What about when Apple switched from Power PC to Intel?

Nobody is saying that we would prefer no BC over BC with all things being equal. The problem is, things are not equal.
 
a) Buy a ps4 console which is fully bc. Play new games and still have access to old games.

b) buy a ps4 console which is not bc. Play new games lose access to old games.

c) buy ps3. access to old games but next gen still out of reach.
That is missing a huge element of this decision. The PS4 you would buy with BC would pale in comparison to the PS4 you will be able to buy. To include BC at the same cost would mean using the PS3 chipset, which would mean butchering the PS4 spec.
 
Again, come up with a practical way to play PS3 games on a PS4 and then you can say it's "boneheaded" not to do it.

Sticking with the old architecture that ken envisaged , make improvements to it or at least use it as a third part like how the ps2 parts were part of the launch ps3s.

by the way ps4 cant even play ps2 or ps1 games. never mind ps3 ones
 
Sticking with the old architecture that ken envisaged , make improvements to it or at least use it as a third part like how the ps2 parts were part of the launch ps3s.

by the way ps4 cant even play ps2 or ps1 games. never mind ps3 ones

The cell architecture has been stagnant for a long time because it was never adopted by anything beyond the PS3, and the the PS2 components in the PS3 were one of the reasons it was too expensive for the mass market.

What else you got?

Also it's not totally clear on whether PS4 will play PS2 games yet. Probably not, but don't rule it out.
 
Sticking with the old architecture that ken envisaged , make improvements to it or at least use it as a third part like how the ps2 parts were part of the launch ps3s.

by the way ps4 cant even play ps2 or ps1 games. never mind ps3 ones

Ok, let's look at using it as a third part. Price now goes up by $150 to $200. Does anywhere here think the price the PS3 launched at was not a mistake? You want them to repeat that same mistake?

Ok, let's look at the old architecture. In many ways the Cell is great because of what the SPUs can do. They are also a pain to utilize and get them to be optimal. People hated it. So you want them to stick with that and end up having a lack of developer support? You want them to stick with something that people don't want and risk the viability of the platform. Sony fell from #1 to #3 this generation.

How are either of these two situations a good solution?
 
I think for me the difference is that when I buy a digital game I want to buy a game for that platform, not for that piece of hardware. It's a completely different mindset than buying physical games (and I still prefer backward compatibility rather than keeping tons of consoles and hoping they never die).

The cell architecture has been stagnant for a long time because it was never adopted by anything beyond the PS3, and the the PS2 components in the PS3 were one of the reasons it was too expensive for the mass market.

IIRC this was not true, I recall someone (Tretton?) mentioning that they didn't save a lot of money cutting b/c, but consumer demand wasn't there so they decided to drop it. I'd have to double check that though.
 
The PS3 price was mostly the bluray drive, but the Tretton quote you're referring to is when they removed the EE to make the 40GB version, they'd already removed the GS and gone to an emulated GPU.

EDIT: Or maybe the other way around, the EE might have gone first, not sure.
 
I don't get that logic at all. If you have the tools to use and download the game, why does another system matter in that initial purchase?

Does the PS3 stop working when PS4 drops??

No, but the PS3 arm of PSN might stop working 2 or 3 years into the PS4's lifetime. When that happens, then yes, you have no way of getting those games again.
 
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