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WSJ: Nintendo Begins Distributing Software Kit for NX (Console + Handheld units)

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Taker666

Member
I just have my worries as to if 3rd parties will even come back at all, they've been burned too many times by Nintendo's policies, restrictions, and lack of development support that it might be too little too late.

At this point, I feel like the NX would have to hardware that's more powerful than PS4 and Xbox One and Nintendo would offer to PAY devs to come back to the fold...and they might get Madden back. That's it.

I still think Nintendo's best move would be to charge zero licensing fees for the first year for all games...and zero licensing fees for the next few years (if not the consoles life) for M rated games/sports games.

If your console sells so poorly that you're not going to get much 3rd party content then you'll barely be getting anything from licensing fees anyway...so you might as well just minimise the fee initially to actually get that content.
 
Sure the reason developers stopped making games for it, cause they had no idea what would sell on it sine there was a ton of shovelware games with motion controls already on wii, just like move and kinect developers ran out of ideas and motion controls dont make games better but worse.

There were tons of shovelware games on PS2 that didn't sell all that well. Didn't stop developers from exploiting PS2 by making games that were in line with the kinds of games Sony was making, because there was a business opportunity there.

Also, bad motion controls of course make bad games. Good motion controls make games better. (Hell, if you want to go the route of "new control schemes that make games worse" I could point at dual-analog which has skewed gaming more and more hardcore and shoved more and more players away from consoles and toward PC/mobile.)

of course you also have 360/ps3 with a huge user base where third party were doing great by just making great games.

Third parties weren't "doing great by just making great games"; they were stacking all their "great games" on 360/PS3, and maybe throwing out an inferior downgrade version on Wii. They weren't putting much (business) attention toward making "great" games that targeted the Wii audience. (Which is not to fault the developers who really did try.) No wonder people didn't buy their relative crocks of shit on Wii.
 
The shared library thing ought to be a boon for the developers and gamers alike, but I was discussing/"shit-posting" about the fantasy that Nintendo calls up AMD, points to the PS4, says "give me one of those" and then voila! Western third party AAA support returns. Ain't gonna happen. People's expectations are too high, just as they were prior to Wii U.

Yeah I agree, but it points to what we've been hearing, a new AMD Semi-Custom design APU rumored to be based on their new line of GPU and CPU's being released in 2016. Nintendo has already negotiated and paid AMD for these chips at a bulk price.

Third Party can keep releasing their games on PS4 and port them over at minimal cost to the NX. There will be money to be made this time with NX due to ease of porting to a more powerful and modern chipset.

Besides it's not like the PS4 has completely destroyed the underpowered Wii U in terms of nice looking games, some of the best looking games on this gen are on Wii U. The PS4 was never top of the line tech even in 2013. Moderate at best, maybe.
 
I wonder how many IP you'd end up with if you tallied the top 30 best-selling games on PS3 and Xbox.

I don't have the time to go through this (and somebody probably has better numbers anyway), but IIRC, the top 15 best selling 360 games were basically Halo/Gears/COD with a few other titles.
 
I don't have the time to go through this (and somebody probably has better numbers anyway), but IIRC, the top 15 best selling 360 games were basically Halo/Gears/COD with a few other titles.

I'm gonna guess it's something like this:

Xbox 360: Kinect Adventures, GTAV, Halo 3, Minecraft, a couple Call of Duty games, Skyrim, Halo 4, a couple Gears of War games, more Call of Duty, Halo Reach, GTAIV, Kinect Sports, Battlefield 3, some Assassin's Creed, some Forza, Elder Scrolls Oblivion, Madden?

PS3: GTAV, Call of Duty, Gran Turismo 5, GTAIV, The Last of Us, FIFA, Battlefield, MGS4, God of War III, Uncharted, Assassin's Creed, Skyrim, LittleBigPlanet, MotorStorm, maybe a Resident Evil somewhere

Either way, the list of breakout all-time best-seller hits that aren't either legacy franchises or casual IP is pretty short.
 

Thraktor

Member
I've been thinking about this thing quite a bit lately.

Is there any hardware combo out there (CPU + GPU, APU, whatever) that might be feasible for Nintendo to leverage on economies of scale, so that they are able to use the exact same chip(s) on both form factors?
Or is it basically a non-issue, since it might turn out to be more important to just have a similar architecture/family (say, ARM) so they can still have common tools and the like?

In theory, yes. Intel do this kind of thing all the time, and often their desktop and laptop chips are the exact same die coming off the exact same production line, and then placed into two different boxes, one intended to run at higher clock speeds for desktops, and one designed to run at lower clock speeds for laptops. There are some pretty big issues with taking this route, though. The first is that the low-voltage (laptop) versions of the chips are actually the more valuable ones. They're the chips which have been tested to perform better under tight thermal constraints, so they're worth more than the desktop chips (where you don't care so much about how much power the chip is using or how much heat it's putting off). This means that your handheld, which is going to sell for a lower price than the home console, is effectively going to have the more expensive hardware in it.

The other issue is that even a standard laptop has active cooling, whereas for a handheld console you're looking at a passively cooled chip, which pushes you into ULV (ultra low voltage) territory. Intel does a line of passively cooled chips called Core M, which are used in Apple's MacBook, amongst other ultra-thin laptops. Again these use the same cores as their Core i series laptop and desktop chips, but clocked lower again than the standard laptop chips. One thing you'll notice about the Core M line, though, is that it doesn't go beyond two cores or their more basic integrated graphics. The reason for this is that, at the power and thermal limits Core M has to fit in, you simply wouldn't get much benefit from adding more cores or a more powerful iGPU. A four-core Core M would have to be clocked so low that it would be barely more powerful than the two-core model, and ditto for a version with the better GPU.

What does this have to do with an NX chipset that would be shared between a home console and handheld? Well, Nintendo would effectively end up spending a lot of money on a big expensive die for their handheld, only to have to clock it so low that it would be barely more powerful than a smaller, much cheaper chip. In any case, with separate dies for an NX home console and handheld, Nintendo would be purchasing in the tens of millions of each, which firmly puts them in the higher brackets when it comes to the economies of scale for custom die purchases, so there's not much more for them to gain by merging them together.
 
There were tons of shovelware games on PS2 that didn't sell all that well. Didn't stop developers from exploiting PS2 by making games that were in line with the kinds of games Sony was making, because there was a business opportunity there.

Also, bad motion controls of course make bad games. Good motion controls make games better. (Hell, if you want to go the route of "new control schemes that make games worse" I could point at dual-analog which has skewed gaming more and more hardcore and shoved more and more players away from consoles and toward PC/mobile.)



Third parties weren't "doing great by just making great games"; they were stacking all their "great games" on 360/PS3, and maybe throwing out an inferior downgrade version on Wii. They weren't putting much (business) attention toward making "great" games that targeted the Wii audience. (Which is not to fault the developers who really did try.) No wonder people didn't buy their relative crocks of shit on Wii.

You cant really compare ps2 to wii, for one ps2 out sold its competition by 110 million, its hardware wasnt a repackaged playstation with motion controls or eye toy, its games can still look great compared to its competition, the wii was a generation behind in Hardware of course ports were gonna be inferior let alone even run on the machine. There was a better business opportunity for developers bigger user base with hardware they can actually do there vision justice, with out the headache of motion controls.
 
In theory, yes. Intel do this kind of thing all the time, and often their desktop and laptop chips are the exact same die coming off the exact same production line, and then placed into two different boxes, one intended to run at higher clock speeds for desktops, and one designed to run at lower clock speeds for laptops. There are some pretty big issues with taking this route, though. The first is that the low-voltage (laptop) versions of the chips are actually the more valuable ones. They're the chips which have been tested to perform better under tight thermal constraints, so they're worth more than the desktop chips (where you don't care so much about how much power the chip is using or how much heat it's putting off). This means that your handheld, which is going to sell for a lower price than the home console, is effectively going to have the more expensive hardware in it.

The other issue is that even a standard laptop has active cooling, whereas for a handheld console you're looking at a passively cooled chip, which pushes you into ULV (ultra low voltage) territory. Intel does a line of passively cooled chips called Core M, which are used in Apple's MacBook, amongst other ultra-thin laptops. Again these use the same cores as their Core i series laptop and desktop chips, but clocked lower again than the standard laptop chips. One thing you'll notice about the Core M line, though, is that it doesn't go beyond two cores or their more basic integrated graphics. The reason for this is that, at the power and thermal limits Core M has to fit in, you simply wouldn't get much benefit from adding more cores or a more powerful iGPU. A four-core Core M would have to be clocked so low that it would be barely more powerful than the two-core model, and ditto for a version with the better GPU.

What does this have to do with an NX chipset that would be shared between a home console and handheld? Well, Nintendo would effectively end up spending a lot of money on a big expensive die for their handheld, only to have to clock it so low that it would be barely more powerful than a smaller, much cheaper chip. In any case, with separate dies for an NX home console and handheld, Nintendo would be purchasing in the tens of millions of each, which firmly puts them in the higher brackets when it comes to the economies of scale for custom die purchases, so there's not much more for them to gain by merging them together.


Well, in a more pessimistic view, you would think they would just take the handheld SoC and triple/quadruple the clocks :p
 
You cant really compare ps2 to wii

Why not? Did PS2 not sell by virtue of having games that people wanted to play or something?

for one ps2 out sold its competition by 110 million

No shit, its competitors were GameCube and its largely rejected library of weird experimental takes on Nintendo IP and Xbox which mostly sold on Halo. Sony also was really pushing adoption in global markets that Nintendo and Microsoft didn't prioritize.

its hardware wasnt a repackaged playstation with motion controls or eye toy

This isn't relevant. Wii U is a repackaged PS3/Xbox 360 with a touch screen in the controller, and that's clearly not helping it sell. There's no way any consumer looked at Wii and thought "oh, so it's a GameCube with motion controls." This has jack shit to do with whether something is appealing or not.

its games can still look great compared to its competition

Many people think Mario Galaxy and Metroid Prime are among the best-looking games of last generation, regardless of their resolution.

Not to mention that the only evergreen title so far this generation is effing Minecraft.

"Looking great compared to the competition" only matters in the standardized hardcore space; it doesn't matter at all in the new genre, new experiences space that creates new gamers.

the wii was a generation behind in Hardware of course ports were gonna be inferior let alone even run on the machine.

Here's the fun fact: just because you're making a game for a platform doesn't mean it has to be a port of a game you're making for another platform.
 

Who

Banned
What do you guys think the differences are going to be for the, at least 2, handheld devices?

Me speculating, there will be 3 with PSPGO type form factors and a single capacitive touch high res screen (so as to make their mobile games playable) and be priced at $249.99 $179.99 and $99.99

The high-end model will have a bigger screen, 3D, and slightly more horsepower than the mid-range model but will share the same library.

The $99.99 would be a small yet capable device capable of running emulators up to the N64, play mobile games, certain eshop titles etc. while also being able to interact with the HomeNX

Both can be used in conjunction with the HomeNX to emulate DS/3DS/WiiU games, (So yes, an exclusive feature to owning both Home and Go), and give console games additional features like minimaps, inventory management, etc.

Just throwing darts at the board.
 
blah blah

Comparing ps2 to wii one destroyed the competition and had basically most of the big third party games to itself, wii didnt thats what i mean by comparison, as for hardware power being irrelevant i believe thats false, i believe the core market noticed how much better the graphics were on 360/ps3 and abandoned the wii brand, it was gigantic leap in hardware that made gameplay better not just graphics. after they got over the motion control fad craze, they saw what they missing out on. as for metroid prime and mario galaxy being some of the best looking games lastgen those people must in extremely in love with those franchises and delusional.
 
Comparing ps2 to wii one destroyed the competition and had basically most of the big third party games to itself, wii didnt thats what i mean by comparison

Sure, but in both cases we're still talking about platforms that captured wide audiences that didn't exist on the other platforms.

Whether the competitors also performed well on their own merits is relevant, but doesn't undercut the underlying point. If anything, Wii's success is more impressive because it happened in a more competitive market and grew the industry in ways that PS2 did not, even after PS2's explosive growth.

as for hardware power being irrelevant i believe thats false, i believe the core market noticed how much better the graphics were on 360/ps3 and abandoned the wii brand

I think you'd be hard-pressed to say that the bulk of PS2 or even Wii customers were "the core market" or that the people who bought PS3s and Xbox 360s were most of the PS2 customers (especially given the large hardware failure and replacement rates).

The vast majority of video game customers are not part of the "hardcore market" anyway.

Also, you really think it was "graphics" that lured people away from Wii and not the fact that there were fewer noteworthy Wii games at the same time that there were more noteworthy PS3/Xbox 360 games?

it was gigantic leap in hardware that made gameplay better not just graphics.

Why, then, are fewer successful games today than there have been historically?

after they got over the motion control fad craze, as for metroid prime and mario galaxy being some of the best looking games lastgen those people must in extremely in love with those franchises and delusional.

Awesome, I see we're now resorting to ad hominem attacks.
 
Sure, but in both cases we're still talking about platforms that captured wide audiences that didn't exist on the other platforms.

Whether the competitors also performed well on their own merits is relevant, but doesn't undercut the underlying point. If anything, Wii's success is more impressive because it happened in a more competitive market and grew the industry in ways that PS2 did not, even after PS2's explosive growth.

I disagree ps2 was mostly about the core market, most of its sales came from tradtional games like, gta, fifa, gt3, it was the gaming console to own, you didnt need a xbox or GC, most big thirdparty games were exclusive, the wii didnt grow the console market, cause that market is now gone.

As for the question about the graphics question hell yes, really wii games looked like dog shit compared to 360/ps3 games.
 
I disagree ps2 was mostly about the core market, most of its sales came from tradtional games like, gta, fifa, gt3, it was the gaming console to own, you didnt need a xbox or GC, most big thirdparty games were exclusive,

It was all that, and it had literally a thousand or two of the kinds of games that appeared on Wii (but not on PS3).

the wii didnt grow the console market, cause that market is now gone.

I said "industry," not "console market."

I'm pretty sure casual dollars haven't gone anywhere but up in this industry since DS and Wii were introduced.
 
It was all that, and it had literally a thousand or two of the kinds of games that appeared on Wii (but not on PS3).



I said "industry," not "console market."

I'm pretty sure casual dollars haven't gone anywhere but up in this industry since DS and Wii were introduced.

Just look at a list of the best sellers on ps2, mostly good tradtional games, not shovelware there was so many great games on ps2 why would people buy shovelware, they didnt.
 

StevieP

Banned
Just look at a list of the best sellers on ps2, mostly good tradtional games, not shovelware there was so many great games on ps2 why would people buy shovelware, they didnt.

Please tell me you're pulling our leg. Or that you're 13 and don't remember the store shelves or something.
 

StevieP

Banned
It had tons of shoveware, but it wasnt the main selling point of the system like wii, just look at the best sellers.

So shovelware was the main selling point of the Wii.
It wasn't just because it was the most gaming successful console or anything.

If this wasn't so off topic, I'd ask for your best essay on the topic.
 
Just look at a list of the best sellers on ps2, mostly good tradtional games, not shovelware there was so many great games on ps2 why would people buy shovelware, they didnt.

The list of best-selling Wii games is "mostly good games," too.

Wii Sports was a fantastic game, as was its sequel, Wii Sports Resort. (Why do you think people actually bought the sequel?)

Wii Fit, also a fantastic game, and its sequel went above and beyond what the original did. (Again, why do you think people actually bought the sequel?)

Mario Kart Wii is a "traditional game."

New Super Mario Bros. Wii, also a "traditional game."

Wii Play is basically a modern-day arcade collection, straight-up a "traditional game" even though it has motion controls.

Smash Bros. Brawl, Super Mario Galaxy, Mario Party 8, Twilight Princess, Donkey Kong Country Returns, Animal Crossing, Super Paper Mario, Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games - all the kinds of games you saw on past Nintendo consoles.

Just Dance was an incredibly popular game that I seriously hope you don't consider shovelware.

It isn't until you get down beyond the top 30 that you even start seeing crappy imitation party games like Deca Sports and Carnival Games.
 
The list of best-selling Wii games is "mostly good games," too.

Wii Sports was a fantastic game, as was its sequel, Wii Sports Resort. (Why do you think people actually bought the sequel?)

Wii Fit, also a fantastic game, and its sequel went above and beyond what the original did. (Again, why do you think people actually bought the sequel?)

Mario Kart Wii is a "traditional game."

New Super Mario Bros. Wii, also a "traditional game."

Wii Play is basically a modern-day arcade collection, straight-up a "traditional game" even though it has motion controls.

Smash Bros. Brawl, Super Mario Galaxy, Mario Party 8, Twilight Princess, Donkey Kong Country Returns, Animal Crossing, Super Paper Mario, Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games - all the kinds of games you saw on past Nintendo consoles.

Just Dance was an incredibly popular game that I seriously hope you don't consider shovelware.

It isn't until you get down beyond the top 30 that you even start seeing crappy imitation party games like Deca Sports and Carnival Games.

Nintendo has alway had those traditional games for 3 generations, n64, gc and wiiu look how much consoles they sold, im not gonna keep repeating myself motion controls sold the console, just like kinect outsold the gc and wiiu even with all those traditional nintendo games.
 
Nintendo has alway had those traditional games for 3 generations, n64, gc and wiiu look how much consoles they sold, im not gonna keep repeating myself motion controls sold the console, just like kinect outsold the gc and wiiu even with all those traditional nintendo games.

No, games sold the console. Some of those games reached wider audiences because the motion controls got people excited, but people wouldn't have bought Wii if it didn't have games they wanted to play, regardless of motion controls. Even a game like Smash Bros. which does not rely at all on motion controls was the best-seller in its franchise, despite several games on Wii not being top sellers in their franchises. Many games like Skyward Sword and Wii Music and Metroid Prime 3 that were marketed based on their motion controls did poorly.

I can tell you with firm certainty that there isn't a single human being on earth who bought NSMB Wii because of motion controls, and yet that game propelled the console industry to its single best quarter in history, and just after a recession to boot.

That's like saying "dual analog control sold the PS4." It's really the popular games that are selling the PS4; if a popular game existed that relied on another control input on another platform, it'd sell, too.
 
God damnit, how the FUCK has ninjablade not been permabanned from this site. Jesus Christ. 90%+ of his posts consist of trolling Nintendo related threads. Someone really needs to explain to me why this shit is acceptable.
 
God damnit, how the FUCK has ninjablade not been permabanned from this site. Jesus Christ. 90%+ of his posts consist of trolling Nintendo related threads. Someone really needs to explain to me why this shit is acceptable.

I think asking for someone to get banned, is against the rules and is bannable.
 
I think it's been shown Nintendo can't support two consoles at the same time. I hope NX and whatever handheld incarnation they have next share the same library. Imagine if that was true for 3DS and Wii U, We'd have one of the best console libraries in history. They simply can't have these huge software droughts anymore and I don't think they can get third parties back to fill them up.
 

Darius

Banned
The discussion about casual and hardcore is as insignificant as always. In general there isn´t much that is more casual than an "interactive" movie. The epitome of dumbed down and monotonous gameplay.

God damnit, how the FUCK has ninjablade not been permabanned from this site. Jesus Christ. 90%+ of his posts consist of trolling Nintendo related threads. Someone really needs to explain to me why this shit is acceptable.

It wouldn´t even surprise me if he´s just someones alt account.
 
I think it's been shown Nintendo can't support two consoles at the same time. I hope NX and whatever handheld incarnation they have next share the same library. Imagine if that was true for 3DS and Wii U, We'd have one of the best console libraries in history. They simply can't have these huge software droughts anymore and I don't think they can get third parties back to fill them up.

Yeah, agreed. In particular, I'm interested in what we'll get when Nintendo eliminates the awkward transition phase between platforms, where the last two years or so of each platform are kinda weak as they prepare for the successor.

It'll also be nice to move past the point where we see experimental ideas appear on one platform and then get reimagined for the other. In cases where different franchises are tailored for each platform, it'd be nice to see more differentiation and less "check out this bigger, better version of the game you played on 3DS a couple years ago!"
 
I'm struggling, I mean giving myself a headache, trying to understand the opinion that the PS2 and Wii, as market leaders, were dissimilar in the types of content they offered and what sort of games were being purchased by consumers. This is literally the very first console generation that does not feature a market leader with a shit ton of poorly-selling shovelware. Market leaders lead markets for highly deserved reasons, paramount among them is a vast wealth of content that people want to buy. NES, SNES, PS1, PS2, and Wii all had awesome games that you couldn't play anywhere else, and were largely marketed towards "casual" consumers.

Also, I think it gets forgotten that the Wii was a sales monster for several years, not just a flash in the pan. Yeah, late life support was shit, but sales didn't just cave after Mario Galaxy or whatever. It sold like 15+ million units per year for 5 years straight. It shipped over 5m Q4 2011, its 6th holiday on market. That's better than PS4 shipped in Q4 2014, its second holiday.

Edit: Found this. Black Friday 2011, the ancient-ass Wii that was basically just two Gamecubes duct-tapped together (remember that cool joke?) and was apparently a "fad craze" sold half a million units in a single day.
 

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
I've been thinking about this thing quite a bit lately.

Is there any hardware combo out there (CPU + GPU, APU, whatever) that might be feasible for Nintendo to leverage on economies of scale, so that they are able to use the exact same chip(s) on both form factors?
Or is it basically a non-issue, since it might turn out to be more important to just have a similar architecture/family (say, ARM) so they can still have common tools and the like?
The latter - having separate chips that can run the same(-ish) software infrastructure makes more business sense (see Thraktor's post quoted below, if you haven't already). The good thing about ARMv8A (the Application profile of the ARMv8) is that it's virtually the same ISA (at least on app level) across the entire spectrum of chips we have, from low-end phones to servers.

Some questions, Blu. You think it's realistic for them to go with Zen tech? I assume that by itself, that is meaningless, as i would also assume they could go with the weakest possible variation and remove some features on top of that as well, or would it actually give us any indication of what to expect performance wise? If so... what do you think?
Zen surely is a possibility, but whether it'd be aligned with nintendo's goals this gen, I would not guess (I've been using the word 'wildcard' with respect to Zen on purpose ; ) What we can safely assume, though, is that AMD has pitched the heck out of Zen to all their semi-custom clients, nintendo included. I think it's safe to assume that at least 1 of those 2 x86 semi-customs will be Zen-based - timeframes indicate as much.

Would it make sense to go with ARM for both devices? I would expect that there would be many benefits to this, but on the other hand, mortals like myself only really know ARM from portable devices. Is there anything keeping an ARM chip of being just as potent as a Zen chip? Let me rephrase: for the homeconsole, how would ARM and AMD (Zen) compare, what would be the pro's and cons?
I expect K12 and Zen to be very comparable. Apparently K12 will be targeted at markets where x86 has no weight, i.e. not for windows. As re current designs - A72 is pretty much the best hypothetical design AMD could produce at the time being (subject to actual licensing - factually unknown) that could meet nintendo's goals as they have been discussed in this thread.

In theory, yes. Intel do this kind of thing all the time, and often their desktop and laptop chips are the exact same die coming off the exact same production line, and then placed into two different boxes, one intended to run at higher clock speeds for desktops, and one designed to run at lower clock speeds for laptops. There are some pretty big issues with taking this route, though. The first is that the low-voltage (laptop) versions of the chips are actually the more valuable ones. They're the chips which have been tested to perform better under tight thermal constraints, so they're worth more than the desktop chips (where you don't care so much about how much power the chip is using or how much heat it's putting off). This means that your handheld, which is going to sell for a lower price than the home console, is effectively going to have the more expensive hardware in it.

The other issue is that even a standard laptop has active cooling, whereas for a handheld console you're looking at a passively cooled chip, which pushes you into ULV (ultra low voltage) territory. Intel does a line of passively cooled chips called Core M, which are used in Apple's MacBook, amongst other ultra-thin laptops. Again these use the same cores as their Core i series laptop and desktop chips, but clocked lower again than the standard laptop chips. One thing you'll notice about the Core M line, though, is that it doesn't go beyond two cores or their more basic integrated graphics. The reason for this is that, at the power and thermal limits Core M has to fit in, you simply wouldn't get much benefit from adding more cores or a more powerful iGPU. A four-core Core M would have to be clocked so low that it would be barely more powerful than the two-core model, and ditto for a version with the better GPU.

What does this have to do with an NX chipset that would be shared between a home console and handheld? Well, Nintendo would effectively end up spending a lot of money on a big expensive die for their handheld, only to have to clock it so low that it would be barely more powerful than a smaller, much cheaper chip. In any case, with separate dies for an NX home console and handheld, Nintendo would be purchasing in the tens of millions of each, which firmly puts them in the higher brackets when it comes to the economies of scale for custom die purchases, so there's not much more for them to gain by merging them together.
A pretty good explanation why the same uarch could not be a good fit for a NX ecosystem.
 
Some questions, Blu. You think it's realistic for them to go with Zen tech? I assume that by itself, that is meaningless, as i would also assume they could go with the weakest possible variation and remove some features on top of that as well, or would it actually give us any indication of what to expect performance wise? If so... what do you think?

Would it make sense to go with ARM for both devices? I would expect that there would be many benefits to this, but on the other hand, mortals like myself only really know ARM from portable devices. Is there anything keeping an ARM chip of being just as potent as a Zen chip? Let me rephrase: for the homeconsole, how would ARM and AMD (Zen) compare, what would be the pro's and cons?

To be honest, all we can say at this point is that the situation is unclear. We don't know for sure what performance level Nintendo is aiming for. We don't know when they're going to launch (although we're assuming late 2016, because the Wii U is already dead in the water and because AMD have stated that they have a console design win for an x86-84 chipset, which realistically can only mean a Nintendo deal). And we don't know how close AMD is to start mass-producing their Zen cores.

For x86-64 there are basically three options on the table. The safe but disappointing ones would be a CPU based either on the Bobcat or the Bulldozer microarchitecture:

Bulldozer is old (its first iteration was released in 2011) and has always kinda sucked (it's one of the reasons why Intel's high-performance CPUs are so far ahead at the moment), but apparently AMD is still working on some mobile / low power APUs based on the Excavator core (4th generation Bulldozer architecture) for 2016 (codename "Bristol Ridge" and "Stoney Ridge"). So if Nintendo decides to go with one of these (which I hope they don't) then AMD shouldn't have any problem providing them with enough of these for 2016.

Bobcat (their dedicated mobile / low power architecture, which is used in its Jaguar iteration in the PS4 and the Xbone) is apparently on the way out. I don't know why, maybe AMD just do not have the resources anymore to develop it further (due to their difficult financial situation there have been many layoffs at AMD recently), maybe they're just holding out and are completely focused on Xen and their ARM-based K12 architecture, which will replace their entire current CPU lineup in 2017. Still, if Nintendo wants a semi-custom chip based on the final iteration of Bobcat, AMD could certainly provide them on time and in high volume for 2016.

In both cases, this would basically mean that we cannot expect the NX to be significantly more powerful than the PS4 and the Xbone (at least when it comes to CPU power). After all, Nintendo would be using technology from the same "era" as the current gen consoles, manufactured using the same old 28nm process. Also, as it has already been pointed out, there's no point in going with x86-64, if they're just going to use one of these old microarchitectures. At this power level, ARM is quickly catching up. Hence, it would make more sense to go with ARM, because the console would then share the same architecture as their next handheld (which is almost certainly going to be ARM based).

So this leaves us with Zen and there the situation is more or less the other way round: It would be top-of-the-line technology for late 2016 ("industry-leading chips" indeed), but we don't know whether AMD is going to have it ready in late 2016 and will be able to deliver them in the quantities necessary for a console launch.

tl;dr: We don't know and it's all rather muddled at the moment.
 

ozfunghi

Member
To be honest, all we can say at this point is that the situation is unclear. We don't know for sure what performance level Nintendo is aiming for. We don't know when they're going to launch (although we're assuming late 2016, because the Wii U is already dead in the water and because AMD have stated that they have a console design win for an x86-84 chipset, which realistically can only mean a Nintendo deal). And we don't know how close AMD is to start mass-producing their Zen cores.

For x86-64 there are basically three options on the table. The safe but disappointing ones would be a CPU based either on the Bobcat or the Bulldozer microarchitecture:

Bulldozer is old (its first iteration was released in 2011) and has always kinda sucked (it's one of the reasons why Intel's high-performance CPUs are so far ahead at the moment), but apparently AMD is still working on some mobile / low power APUs based on the Excavator core (4th generation Bulldozer architecture) for 2016 (codename "Bristol Ridge" and "Stoney Ridge"). So if Nintendo decides to go with one of these (which I hope they don't) then AMD shouldn't have any problem providing them with enough of these for 2016.

Bobcat (their dedicated mobile / low power architecture, which is used in its Jaguar iteration in the PS4 and the Xbone) is apparently on the way out. I don't know why, maybe AMD just do not have the resources anymore to develop it further (due to their difficult financial situation there have been many layoffs at AMD recently), maybe they're just holding out and are completely focused on Xen and their ARM-based K12 architecture, which will replace their entire current CPU lineup in 2017. Still, if Nintendo wants a semi-custom chip based on the final iteration of Bobcat, AMD could certainly provide them on time and in high volume for 2016.

In both cases, this would basically mean that we cannot expect the NX to be significantly more powerful than the PS4 and the Xbone (at least when it comes to CPU power). After all, Nintendo would be using technology from the same "era" as the current gen consoles, manufactured using the same old 28nm process. Also, as it has already been pointed out, there's no point in going with x86-64, if they're just going to use one of these old microarchitectures. At this power level, ARM is quickly catching up. Hence, it would make more sense to go with ARM, because the console would then share the same architecture as their next handheld (which is almost certainly going to be ARM based).

So this leaves us with Zen and there the situation is more or less the other way round: It would be top-of-the-line technology for late 2016 ("industry-leading chips" indeed), but we don't know whether AMD is going to have it ready in late 2016 and will be able to deliver them in the quantities necessary for a console launch.

tl;dr: We don't know and it's all rather muddled at the moment.

Thanks, so, if i understand your post correctly, the better option would be to go with Zen... but if that doesn't get there in time, it would actually make more sense to go with ARM? But if both Zen and NX are scheduled for late 2016, and "a consolemaker" is going AMD... everything points towards NX going Zen?

Zen surely is a possibility, but whether it'd be aligned with nintendo's goals this gen, I would not guess (I've been using the word 'wildcard' with respect to Zen on purpose ; ) What we can safely assume, though, is that AMD has pitched the heck out of Zen to all their semi-custom clients, nintendo included. I think it's safe to assume that at least 1 of those 2 x86 semi-customs will be Zen-based - timeframes indicate as much.

I expect K12 and Zen to be very comparable. Apparently K12 will be targeted at markets where x86 has no weight, e.g. not for windows. As re current designs - A72 is pretty much the best hypothetical design AMD could produce at the time being (subject to actual license - factually unknown) that could meet nintendo's goals as they have been discussed in this thread.

Thanks. Wouldn't it then just make more sense to go with the most potent ARM (K12) for the home console, and a lesser ARM cpu for the handheld?

EDIT: just did some reading, K12 will roll out even later than Zen, with basically similar improvements, just not x86 but ARM ISA. So that's off the table. Then, how would A72 compare with Zen?
 

StevieP

Banned
Thanks, so, if i understand your post correctly, the better option would be to go with Zen... but if that doesn't get there in time, it would actually make more sense to go with ARM? But if both Zen and NX are scheduled for late 2016, and "a consolemaker" is going AMD... everything points towards NX going Zen?

AMD has an ARM license
 

AmyS

Member
I really doubt Zen will be used in any incarnation of NX hardware. Zen is simply way too new, even for 2016. Zen will most likely show up in Microsoft's and Sony's next gen consoles, but those are years away. I feel that NX will almost definitely use ARM cores. Hopefully the highest performance, newest core for the console, but we'll see. I remember some of you guys were saying the A57 is the best bet. Very well might be. Hoping for the A72.
 
The Wii was a success in every way possible, its only mayor flaw was that Nintendo trashed it toó early.

I think there are two similar but nonetheless differently significant problems with Wii:

1) Nintendo cut off support for it while it was still going strong, and while its competitors were ramping up support

2) The vision for new genres of gaming born from motion controls was largely abandoned after Wii MotionPlus was announced, with the only real games we got that tried to advance the original "Revolution" being Wii Sports Resort and Skyward Sword a couple years later, neither of which really advanced their respective franchises in any way other than more sophisticated control input (Wii Sports Resort added a bunch of bad sports and missed out on online play; Skyward Sword was seen as deficient in a lot of important ways as a Zelda game)
 

Pif

Banned
I think there are two similar but nonetheless differently significant problems with Wii:

1) Nintendo cut off support for it while it was still going strong, and while its competitors were ramping up support

2) The vision for new genres of gaming born from motion controls was largely abandoned after Wii MotionPlus was announced, with the only real games we got that tried to advance the original "Revolution" being Wii Sports Resort and Skyward Sword a couple years later, neither of which really advanced their respective franchises in any way other than more sophisticated control input (Wii Sports Resort added a bunch of bad sports and missed out on online play; Skyward Sword was seen as deficient in a lot of important ways as a Zelda game)

Red Steel 2 man. Respect.
 
I really doubt Zen will be used in any incarnation of NX hardware. Zen is simply way too new, even for 2016. Zen will most likely show up in Microsoft's and Sony's next gen consoles, but those are years away. I feel that NX will almost definitely use ARM cores. Hopefully the highest performance, newest core for the console, but we'll see. I remember some of you guys were saying the A57 is the best bet. Very well might be. Hoping for the A72.

AMD is desperate for Zen to be a success and may already have them ready for NX. However A72 is said to be 2x as fast as the A57 and is known better. Either way the CPU in NX should be awesome even if it is A72 and not Zen.
 
there will never be another wii.

god damn that generation was insane when you look back on it.

*shrug* These kinds of game-changer platforms seem to come around every couple generations.

Atari - Generation 2
NES/GameBoy - Generation 3
PlayStation - Generation 5
DS/Wii/mobile - Generation 7

I don't think it's a given that we'll get a real home run in Gen 9 by any means, but I'm sure between VR and NX the landscape will at least be somewhat different. As long as it doesn't feel like another continuation of the first HD generation, I'll be happy.
 
*shrug* These kinds of game-changer platforms seem to come around every couple generations.

Atari - Generation 2
NES/GameBoy - Generation 3
PlayStation - Generation 5
DS/Wii/mobile - Generation 7

I don't think it's a given that we'll get a real home run in Gen 9 by any means, but I'm sure between VR and NX the landscape will at least be somewhat different. As long as it doesn't feel like another continuation of the first HD generation, I'll be happy.
I'd argue that the Xbox 360 also belongs in that list. It really changed the gaming landscape in a lot of ways.
 

Litri

Member
I expect K12 and Zen to be very comparable. Apparently K12 will be targeted at markets where x86 has no weight, i.e. not for windows. As re current designs - A72 is pretty much the best hypothetical design AMD could produce at the time being (subject to actual licensing - factually unknown) that could meet nintendo's goals as they have been discussed in this thread.

So we know the possibilities, Zen or ARM.

If we consider Nintendo is cost-conscious (and we cannot rule this out), it seems pretty clear to me that anything ARM based will be much cheaper plus will have the possibility of scaling well if there's a portable system too. At this point, and considering the above, I would rule out Zen but maybe I'm totally off.
 
I'd argue that the Xbox 360 also belongs in that list. It really changed the gaming landscape in a lot of ways.

I don't really think so; with the exception of Kinect, which was a me-too effort to follow Wii, the Xbox 360 was all about capitalizing on the more profitable hardcore customers from the previous generation by doubling down on the things they found valuable. It wasn't at all about broadening the gaming landscape.
 

Lonely1

Unconfirmed Member
So we know the possibilities, Zen or ARM.

If we consider Nintendo is cost-conscious (and we cannot rule this out), it seems pretty clear to me that anything ARM based will be much cheaper plus will have the possibility of scaling well if there's a portable system too. At this point, and considering the above, I would rule out Zen but maybe I'm totally off.

Puma, Jaguar (and Espresso!) are still on the table, though.
 
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