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[ReiGun]

If he could he would, but he's a complete unknown to anyone but the hardcore audience so no one would give shit

Most people who use the meme of that Giantbomb guy probably couldn't pick him out of a crowd. Yet I see it on my twitter feed almost everyday.

That's my whole point. A meme of Mojo could blow up tomorrow and would likely have nothing to do with Mojo himself because that's how memes work. If something is funny enough, or has enough funny applications, no one cares where it comes from.

We have tons of better barometers for Orton and Cena's popularity: merch sales, buyrates, audiences attendance, etc. I don't know why one would start trying to use memes, or start suggesting that only the most popular stars get memes when we know that's not true. You never know what the zeitgeist of the internet will grab hold of.

So you're saying it's a coincidence that Cena and Orton (the 2 most overbooked/popular/known/world title record breaking guys/revered in the company's eyes) guys this past decade got the memes outta nowhere (pun intended) when no one else wrestling did?

Yeeeeeaaaaaaahhhhhhh ssuuuuuuurrrrrreeeeeeeee it's a coincidence.

Sounds to me like you're making excuses.

I'm saying that it's a poor measure for their popularity because of how memes work. Because anything can become a meme under the right conditions. I'll even concede their star power helped if that's where we're getting hung up. But to act like it's only happening for them because they're big stars when we have numerous examples of memes taking off where that's not the case is where I disagree.

When we get other stars in actual memes, you can say their star power doesn't help their memes get over. Shit, I mean it's easy to debunk when you think about it especially when Orton's meme only took off due to random squaredcircle/Youtube/viners. Secondly, Mojo, and other WWE stars, have posted plenty of stupid things on social media and they haven't been turned into memes and all of a sudden Orton's did when when random Youtubers/viners/squaredcircle posters posted his. They've done plenty of stupid things the WWE's official Youtube channel in hopes of somehow getting over, even few days ago they showed heels and faces dancing weirdly hoping it caught on. It doesn't work for others because they're not Orton and Cena.

Or because no one found the things they were doing all that funny. *shrug*

The fact you're arguing this when it's Orton and Cena of all people is insane. If anything it looks like another WrassleGAF "lemme shit on a wrestler on no that's not true because of what I think about the wrestler" comment. It shouldn't even be debated that Cena and Orton's star power helped push their memes.

How is me saying "memes are a poor measure of popularity" me shitting on Orton or Cena? I haven't said anything about what I think of either of them. They're both bonafide stars. They're both talented. Both have worked hard and earned their spot. I just don't think having a meme is a great measure of that compared to, ya know, all the actual hard data we have that makes that argument a lot more succiently.

 

[Ronin Ray]

You're looking at him through the eyes of mark who is watching the product regardless. Orton looks and carries himself like a star, he's one of the very few left on the roster that actually look like they belong on TV. The RKO out of nowhere meme wouldn't have gone anywhere if he wasn't over, it wouldn't work with just some random guy doing the diamond cutter

But I don't watch the product and haven't for a very long time. I have watched a few YouTube clips and watched one pay per view because it took place in my city . If I am a mark( nice assumption) there failing because there not getting money out of me because there product is bad generic and boring. Please describe what a star looks like? Plenty of memes get over with random people in them .

 

[XenoRaven]

Can you guys stop talking about memes

 

[Bruce Springsteen]

Memes putting people over explain Tye Dillinger and Bobby Roode.

Again, you don't get it, the meme isn't putting over Cena or Orton, their memes were mainstream because of who they were before their meme became a thing

Pretty basic concept to understand but when you willingly keep your head in the sand it doesn't matter I guess

 

[Chubzdoomer]

It amazes me that people still watch it. The product hasn't been worth anything for well over a decade.

 

[Speevy]

I always wonder if people who keep asking the WWE to produce better storylines understand that the entire industry is dying. Industries die all the time.

Wrestling started small, gained in popularity, and was propelled into the mainstream on an unsustainable business model.

In 20 years there will be no televised wrestling. Mark my words.

 

[cordy]

I'm saying that it's a poor measure for their popularity because of how memes work. Because anything can become a meme under the right conditions. I'll even concede their star power helped if that's where we're getting hung up. But to act like it's only happening for them because they're big stars when we have numerous examples of memes taking off where that's not the case is where I disagree.

Or because no one found the things they were doing all that funny. *shrug*

How is me saying "memes are a poor measure of popularity" me shitting on Orton or Cena? I haven't said anything about what I think of either of them. They're both bonafide stars. They're both talented. Both have worked hard and earned their spot. I just don't think having a meme is a great measure of that compared to, ya know, all the actual hard data we have that makes that argument a lot more succiently.

Again, it sounds like you're making excuses and taking offense when it should be a simple concept. It's like a Drake album. Even if the album is bad, even if he doesn't promote it much, it'll be pushed more than another's album who does the same thing on average. Why?...

Because it's Drake. He's more known.

The same applies to memes because Orton and Cena doing something more stupid on average is getting pushed more than Mojo Rawley, AJ Styles, Nakamura, Kevin Owens, whoever, because they're more known people. This applies to a store like Target getting a product compared to a standard mom and pop store who gets that same product. Guess which one people will visit more? I'm sure you can guess. Nowhere does that says that memes from others don't blow up, because they do as it's a meme. Those memes do not get the star power push that a meme from Orton and Cena would. Cena gets his random deadlifts pushed heavy on random days. Orton gets random pics with rappers and random comments about restaurants, airlines and bad gym experiences posted. How are you comparing that to a Mojo Rawley?

Overall, I'll just say this...

You straight up said in this post right now that their star power helped their memes get over. That's all we're saying here and yet you act like we're saying that memes from unknowns can't get over. That's not even close.

This is exactly what I was saying about the WrassleGAF comments. Dudes be taking offense when you guys are agreeing with the comments because it goes against whoever is in your avy or it goes for who you don't like. You need to chill. You're agreeing with me here.

 

[RBH]

Whoops

 

[Bruce Springsteen]

I always wonder if people who keep asking the WWE to produce better storylines understand that the entire industry is dying. Industries die all the time.

Wrestling started small, gained in popularity, and was propelled into the mainstream on an unsustainable business model.

In 20 years there will be no televised wrestling. Mark my words.

I agree with this, it's a dying niche industry that the WWE managed to stay alive by commercializing it as much as possible to get every last dime that they can before it's over, I don't blame them

The viewership has fallen off a cliff but they make record profits because there are new revenue streams that simply weren't there before. RAW is very close to TNA numbers when Russo was in charge there

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Can you guys stop talking about memes

Meme Gene Okerlund

Again, you don't get it, the meme isn't putting over Cena or Orton, their memes were mainstream because of who they were before their meme became a thing

Pretty basic concept to understand but when you willingly keep your head in the sand it doesn't matter I guess

No I agree with you. The RKO out of nowhere thing doesn't work if Orton isn't a known guy, or if a lot of people didn't, at the very least, have a vague idea of who Orton was or what the RKO is.

 

[Zabka]

Steaks and Weights is a hot up and coming meme. Better buy in now!

 

[ReiGun]

Again, it sounds like you're making excuses and taking offense when it should be a simple concept. It's like a Drake album. Even if the album is bad, even if he doesn't promote it much, it'll be pushed more than another's album who does the same thing on average. Why?...

Because it's Drake. He's more known.

The same applies to memes because Orton and Cena doing something more stupid on average is getting pushed more than Mojo Rawley, AJ Styles, Nakamura, Kevin Owens, whoever, because they're more known people. This applies to a store like Target getting a product compared to a standard mom and pop store who gets that same product. Guess which one people will visit more? I'm sure you can guess. Nowhere does that says that memes from others don't blow up, because they do as it's a meme. Those memes do not get the star power push that a meme from Orton and Cena would. Cena gets his random deadlifts pushed heavy on random days. Orton gets random pics with rappers and random comments about restaurants, airlines and bad gym experiences posted. How are you comparing that to a Mojo Rawley?

Overall, I'll just say this...

You straight up said in this post right now that their star power helped their memes get over. That's all we're saying here and yet you act like we're saying that memes from unknowns can't get over. That's not even close.

This is exactly what I was saying about the WrassleGAF comments. Dudes be taking offense when you guys are agreeing with the comments because it goes against whoever is in your avy or it goes for who you don't like. You need to chill. You're agreeing with me here.

People engage with/laugh at memes about things they don't like or don't care about all the time. I wouldn't use that as a barometer for how over someone is.

That's what I originally said on the topic and has been my whole point. That I don't think it's a great barometer for popularity because of how memes work. If you decided to take that as me doubting Orton or Cena's star power, then idk.

My other point of contention was posting a gif of the Phenomenal Forearm and saying "Make this a meme!" Not because it's AJ Styles, but because you know it's not that easy and doesnt help your point.

Cena's deadlifts being shared or Orton at restaurants aren't things I would consider memes. Not in the way that "RKO Outta Nowhere" or "His name is John Cena!" are. In the case of the former, no, Mojo wouldn't compare because those are about overall social media presence and brand awareness. In the case of the latter, where it's mostly about a joke that even people who don't care about wrestling can apply it to something they find funny, Mojo could absolutely have something like that under the right conditions. That was the point of my comparison.

And I'm actually quite calm. Like you said, we mostly agree except for a few points. You're the one launching into tirades about WrassleGaf posters because, I guess, I have an AJ Styles avatar? If I misunderstood something or have not explained my argument properly, I would rather you say that than try to paint me as being offended or upset. I'll admit to taking umbrage with the WrassleGaf posters comment because it came across as you trying to call me out for something rather than engaging with what I was actually saying. If that was not your intent, my mistake. We're having a debate. That's it. S'all good.

 

[pretty done]

Orton is a star that is known by causals, he's from the last era that actually had stars in it. There is a reason he's 13x champ, you can put his face on a billboard and people will come


he's also a great worker

lol what is the last Orton match you can even remember? Outside of the ones you remember for being a piece of shit like Wrestlemania. Dude has been phoning it in for 10 years.

 

[Waylon Drums]

I'm at the point where I just figure that anything that turns out to be a big deal, I'll just read about it tomorrow anyway.

 

[DMczaf]

Meme Gene Okerlund



No I agree with you. The RKO out of nowhere thing doesn't work if Orton isn't a known guy, or if a lot of people didn't, at the very least, have a vague idea of who Orton was or what the RKO is.

MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEME

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


BY GAWD BY GAWD BY GAWD GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENE

 

[Kaiterra]

I like ReiGun's posts in this thread. Also if meme power was equivalent to star power we could probably call Shockmaster a draw.

Orton is a star that is known by causals, he's from the last era that actually had stars in it. There is a reason he's 13x champ, you can put his face on a billboard and people will come


he's also a great worker

What gets me is that like three of those are from one night lol

 

[LiQuid!]

Only 5 pages and ya'll trying to get this thread locked again smdh

 

[Khrno]

lol what is the last Orton match you can even remember? Outside of the ones you remember for being a piece of shit like Wrestlemania. Dude has been phoning it in for 10 years.

WM30's main event, I clearly remember him not putting Bryan over but instead having Batista doing the honors. Great match, would have been a 5 stars match if someone else was in that match instead of him.

I also remember him screwing up the RKO spot on Bryan on the spanish (or German table) and falling on top of the monitor he removed from the table.

 

[Tom Nook]

RAW viewership: 2.751 million. Up from 2.696 million last week.

http://www.showbuzzdaily.com/articles/showbuzzdailys-top-150-monday-cable-originals-network-finals-5-15-2017.html

5 WWE ENTERTAINMENT USA NETWORK 8:00 PM 60 1.02 2,884
6 WWE ENTERTAINMENT USA NETWORK 10:00 PM 69 0.96 2,645
7 WWE ENTERTAINMENT USA NETWORK 9:00 PM 60 0.94 2,724

 

[Sephzilla]

http://www.showbuzzdaily.com/articles/showbuzzdailys-top-150-monday-cable-originals-network-finals-5-15-2017.html

Kind of surprising since it was up against a Game 7 and an NHL playoff game

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Kind of surprising since it was up against a Game 7 and an NHL playoff game

Haha NHL..

 

[Sephzilla]

Haha NHL..

....NHL's playoffs this year have on average not been that far behind WWE.

 

[Frustrated_me]

Kind of surprising since it was up against a Game 7 and an NHL playoff game

 

[Into the Light]

Surprised considering it was one of the worst RAW's I have ever seen.

 

[Host Samurai]

Terrible RAW. I turned it off right when Finn jobbed to injured Roman. I worked myself into a shoot and said "fuck this company".

 

[Zombegoast]

They deserve it. Btw, where's Brock and his Universal belt?

 

[Hidden One]

Terrible RAW. I turned it off right when Finn jobbed to injured Roman. I worked myself into a shoot and said "fuck this company".

Same I turned the channel, probably gonna skip out next week too.

 

[Into the Light]

Every week for me is a new low.

 

[billy beane]

They deserve it. Btw, where's Brock and his Universal belt?

He's in a different galaxy right now. You gotta travel a lot when you're the champion of the entire universe.

I think next week he's defending the title in the Samsung Galaxy.

 

[Strangelove77]

Finn jobbing clean to an injured Roman.
Fuck my life.

 

[ThreePiMatt]

http://www.showbuzzdaily.com/articles/showbuzzdailys-top-150-monday-cable-originals-network-finals-5-15-2017.html

It was the Goldust heel-turn. No other explanation for it.

 

[Anth0ny]

The audience dropped six percent over the previous low mark set last week of 2.86 million viewers.

From the OP. Rating is better than last week, but still worse than 2 weeks ago, which was awful. Almost certainly another rating in the 1.9s.


Are we normalizing at <2.0 for Raw? Outside of football season???

 

[Krixeus]

Finn jobbing clean to an injured Roman.
Fuck my life.

That happened on Raw? Good Lord no wonder the ratings are horrible. At least top babyface Braun will save the day!

 

[Into the Light]

From the OP. Rating is better than last week, but still worse than 2 weeks ago, which was awful. Almost certainly another rating in the 1.9s.


Are we normalizing at <2.0 for Raw? Outside of football season???

I think so, also it seems Vince doesn't care, even if it hit 1.5. They really just don't care about ratings anymore. We all know once its dropped from TV, RAW and Smackdown will end up on the network, with commercials, and advertising$$

 

[DeathyBoy]

lol what is the last Orton match you can even remember? Outside of the ones you remember for being a piece of shit like Wrestlemania. Dude has been phoning it in for 10 years.

Orton vs Lesnar.

And how has he been phoning it in for ten years when his best series vs Christian was from THIS decade. God damn marks.

 

[cordy]

Ambrose/Miz for the IC title was advertised so they get props for the ratings increase.

 

[vatstep]

The true smarks know not to even bother with the bullshit taped Raws; that explains how it went up a bit last night.

 

[Diablos54]

Terrible RAW. I turned it off right when Finn jobbed to injured Roman.

wut? Man WWE are so stupid &#128514;&#128514;

 

[mreddie]

Monday Night RAW-en Reigns.

Ugh.

 

[Tom Nook]

That happened on Raw? Good Lord no wonder the ratings are horrible. At least top babyface Braun will save the day!

 

[Basileus777]

I always wonder if people who keep asking the WWE to produce better storylines understand that the entire industry is dying. Industries die all the time.

Wrestling started small, gained in popularity, and was propelled into the mainstream on an unsustainable business model.

In 20 years there will be no televised wrestling. Mark my words.

The industry may be dying, but calling the business model unsustainable when it has lasted 30+ years (a lifetime in entertainment) is pretty silly.

It's likely to survive as a niche product anyway, 20 years from now who knows what television even will be, but I'm pretty confident that you will still be able to watch live wrestling on it.

 

[Piston Hyundai]

Ambrose/Miz for the IC title was advertised so they get props for the ratings increase.

and I'm sure everyone that tuned in for that match went away from it happy

Monday Night RAW-en Reigns.

Ugh.

the Reigns of Terror

 

[Speevy]

The industry may be dying, but calling the business model unsustainable when it has lasted 30+ years (a lifetime in entertainment) is pretty silly.

It's likely to survive as a niche product anyway, 20 years from now who knows what television even will be, but I'm pretty confident that you will still be able to watch live wrestling on it.

No, you're misunderstanding me.

I'm talking about how wrestling went from a periodic attraction to one that was on four or five different channels, selling out stadiums, where you could buy stock in it and subscribe to it and listen to a podcast about it. I'm talking about the period of time when wrestling went from something people joked about to the time when people were writing newspaper articles about how it was affecting our youth. That is called a bubble, and it burst. Whenever an industry can effortlessly sustain three competitors and later the industry leader struggles, there's something deeply wrong, and it has nothing to do with who's writing the scripts.

Wrestling's biggest success was not over 30 years, but within about 5-10 years from the Attitude era. Any longer or shorter than that and it's less popular, on either side of the timeline.

 

[Host Samurai]

RAW = Roman Always Wins

 

[Basileus777]

No, you're misunderstanding me.

I'm talking about how wrestling went from a periodic attraction to one that was on four or five different channels, selling out stadiums, where you could buy stock in it and subscribe to it and listen to a podcast about it. I'm talking about the period of time when wrestling went from something people joked about to the time when people were writing newspaper articles about how it was affecting our youth. That is called a bubble, and it burst. Whenever an industry can effortlessly sustain three competitors and later the industry leader struggles, there's something deeply wrong, and it has nothing to do with who's writing the scripts.

Wrestling's biggest success was not over 30 years, but within about 5-10 years from the Attitude era. Any longer or shorter than that and it's less popular, on either side of the timeline.

This happened in the 80s even if the Attitude era would later even eclipse that. It wasn't a bubble, it had a pretty regular rise and decline. Even the attitude era was 20 years ago, there was no sudden burst.

But yeah, I'd agree that there is a lot more going on than poor writing, though it is a contributing factor. The comparisons have been to say 2012, no one thinks that wrestling could replicate what it was in the late 90s.

 

[LiquidSolid]

No, you're misunderstanding me.

I'm talking about how wrestling went from a periodic attraction to one that was on four or five different channels, selling out stadiums, where you could buy stock in it and subscribe to it and listen to a podcast about it. I'm talking about the period of time when wrestling went from something people joked about to the time when people were writing newspaper articles about how it was affecting our youth. That is called a bubble, and it burst. Whenever an industry can effortlessly sustain three competitors and later the industry leader struggles, there's something deeply wrong, and it has nothing to do with who's writing the scripts.

Wrestling's biggest success was not over 30 years, but within about 5-10 years from the Attitude era. Any longer or shorter than that and it's less popular, on either side of the timeline.

When the industry leader runs the others out of business (alongside a lot of their fans) and then makes enough bad decisions over the course of a decade and a half, producing a terrible product as a result and gradually whittling down their audience, how is this a sign of something being "deeply wrong"?

It's not like the Attitude era boom was a one-off, there have been plenty of other hot periods in the past (though pre-80s boom they were regional, not national).

Edit: And FYI, wrestling outside of the WWE is doing really well at the moment.

 

[Risette]

isn't WWE doing well financially anyways? TV ratings are only one piece of the puzzle. tho they may be in trouble when they have to negotiate the TV deal again

 

[Speevy]

When the industry leader runs the others out of business (alongside a lot of their fans) and then makes enough bad decisions over the course of a decade and a half, producing a terrible product as a result and gradually whittling down their audience, how is this a sign of something being "deeply wrong"?

Because the demand is shrinking, and it's not generating revenue for as many parties as it used to.

That's pretty much the long and short of it.

WWE's product was also bad at times during the height of its success. Wrestling is not a prestige product. It's a carnival attraction soap opera. My entire point was that producing the stars like we had in 1998 or writing interesting storylines WILL NOT turn the WWE's fortunes. I wish people would stop repeating this ridiculous bit of conjecture.

 

[PaulExcellent]

I want to understand wrestling and give it a shot, but goddamn I feel like I'll never really understand the plot lines.

 

[Heroman]

I want to understand wrestling and give it a shot, but goddamn I feel like I'll never really understand the plot lines.

Understanding Wrestling feuds for the most part is super easy.