The Russo/Lucas comparison is pretty apt. Lucas worked way better when he had some people around him to act as a filter and weed out his bad ideas. When you remove those filters or replace them with yes-men you get Prequel era Lucas. The same applies to Russo and, like Lucas, he's got too much of an ego now to accept someone filtering him.
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WWE Raw Ratings: Viewership Hits Record Low
- Thread starter DMczaf
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Luschient
Member
Real talk, I'd resubscribe to the network if they brought Cornette back.
Russo never did shit for wrestling and he acts like he "created" Stone Cold and The Rock. It's possible he had good ideas but they were being super filtered by guys like Vince and Cornette not to mention vets like Paterson and Briscoe. He was completely under control in WWE and you can see the major differences to his work in TNA and WCW where he had no direction and was surrounded by incompetence.
BTW really considering not watching WWE anymore, stopped NXT week's ago after every show was a bore, smackdown after that and these past few RAWs I've enjoyed very few segments. The Joe/Lesnar confrontation was solid but the rest of the show was a drag. It's incredible how clumsy some of these matches were on these last few shows. The 6 woman's tag and the EnzoCass/AndersonGallows were real cluster fucks where you can see people just waiting to take a move. A lot of these NXT peeps just don't have it up on the big stage and I'm sure Vince has a lot to do with it, they're like his step children who get $5 at Christmas and his real kids get toys.
BTW really considering not watching WWE anymore, stopped NXT week's ago after every show was a bore, smackdown after that and these past few RAWs I've enjoyed very few segments. The Joe/Lesnar confrontation was solid but the rest of the show was a drag. It's incredible how clumsy some of these matches were on these last few shows. The 6 woman's tag and the EnzoCass/AndersonGallows were real cluster fucks where you can see people just waiting to take a move. A lot of these NXT peeps just don't have it up on the big stage and I'm sure Vince has a lot to do with it, they're like his step children who get $5 at Christmas and his real kids get toys.
In that case, fire him after a month. In that time, don't allow him to put the title on David Arquette. What's the harm? The stories and characters are already bad.
You say he didn't do shit for wrestling but then you say he contributed good ideas. Perhaps he does only work with a filter. So bring him back and filter his ass. He has a lot of ideas, many crazy, some good. Now no one has any ideas. Ideas are badly needed.
Keyser Soze
Member
Hiring Russo is the equivalent of putting out a fire with a flamethrower
Lol this is a perfect analogy.
TarpitCarnivore
Member
Ideas are not the problem, they have plenty of ideas. It's all in execution and that's where Russo would fail miserably (again).
Russo said:
Ninja Scooter
Member
LETS GET KEVIN OWENS IN A DIAPER AND HAVE HIM ACT LIKE A BABY BROOOOOOOO
I'm not seeing any good ideas. Execution is not the problem. The wrestlers are talented. They're just given shit things to execute. Boring uninteresting storylines, characters, writing, and skits.
See, you can just tell him "no" for this. It's easy.
Piston Hyundai
Member
if something is going to burn down no matter what, it'd be more fun to watch with a flamethrower involved
TarpitCarnivore
Member
Saying wrestlers have talent, but then blaming what their given is hand in hand with execution. Good performers overcome this, it's their job to put on good matches/promos inspite of the poor material they're given. Charolette, Becky & Alex seem to be making the most out of the shit scripts they've been given, meanwhile Naomi hasn't done anything. Rhyno & Heath Slater managed to get over on a trailer park gimmick. Fans were eating up Orton/Wyatt until house of horrors. AJ styles is prime example in being able to make the most of garbage by getting James fucking Ellsworth over. There have been interesting match ups or teams over the last 2-3 years, but it comes down to how they're being used aka execution
If you think Vince & HHH are bad with foreign talent, just go back and watch how Russo handled foreign talent.
All the in-ring athletic talent doesn't mean shit if you can't cut it on the mic or in the ring.
shaowebb
Member
Let it burn then. The sooner they get off that network the sooner they can stop booking wrestlers to act like fuggin cartoons. We dont need hardcore matches and thong on a dong matches but we need promos with bite and we need folks to be allowed to be interesting. PG shit show aint gonna work in a league where the action is already so nerfed it can't carry itself on its own merit. If they aint allowed to cut loose or do more than spots most nights then they'll need characters that can at least be taken more seriously.
The Silver
Member
That's not USA, that's about sponsors and Vince being too much of a wuss to upset them.
Etrian Oddity
Member
The problem with Russo's "shock and awe" style is that while shakes things up for an immediate ratings spike, the guy has absolutely no idea how to strategize long-term and often shoots himself in the foot.
Cornette is no saint and he's the polar opposite of Russo in that he's stuck in the 1980s, but at least Cornette makes logical points when it comes to booking and talent development.
Also, fuck Russo for approving the "Oklahoma" angle in WCW. Seriously, fuck him and fuck anyone who thinks or thought that trash was acceptable.
Cornette is no saint and he's the polar opposite of Russo in that he's stuck in the 1980s, but at least Cornette makes logical points when it comes to booking and talent development.
Also, fuck Russo for approving the "Oklahoma" angle in WCW. Seriously, fuck him and fuck anyone who thinks or thought that trash was acceptable.
Ban Puncher
Member
If I was paying a bunch of people to write storylines for the wrestlers on my wrestling show and they came back with "WE HAVE NOTHING FOR YOU", I would hire writers that can actually do their job.
Vince will be beyond moronic to upset advertisers. Wrestling has a big stigma for being poison for ads besides its high ratings, by going PG they managed to secure good deals with companies like Mattel, and even maanged to have 1 show advertised by coca cola which is huge all things considering.
I think that the PG rating isn't an issue anymore, specially compared to the years when Linda was campaigning. The problem is, that the show is too formulaic in part for lack of ideas, vince being stubborn, and having to fill 7 to10 hours of content a week
Doesnt WWE have like two dozen writers or something like that? There's absolutely no reason why every wrestler shouldn't have some kind of creative direction
Ban Puncher
Member
To be fair it's not solely because of lazy writers but also because management shoot most shit down that is pitched.
Weed out people who are bad at their job but let Creative be creative.
The average writer in WWE lasts less than six months. It makes zero sense to blame any of them for the quality over their boss or the environment they operate in.
I said "he may have", I also clarified it in my post by saying they were being put directly through vince. My main point was there are very clear examples of very bad booking on his part when he is left unshackled. Dude is hated anyway and will never be brought back. Did you see the table for 3 with Cornette and Bischof, they showed pics of him and made jokes at his expense. He ain't liked and he ain't wanted.
You had me at your plok avatar. Best looking and sounding SNES game
Strangelove77
Member
Bring back Jeff Jarrett, the king of the mountain.
Being fair to the writers though, they work under insane deadlines and Vince will often veto whatever they write they day of the show anyway. Plus, the WWE has a very high turnover rate for writers. Many last only a few months, some only a couple of weeks.
Etrian Oddity
Member
But Bro, the ratings don't lie Bro. Let's give him credit for creating the stars like The Rock, Stone Cold, Mankind, Undertaker & HHH, and forget about not-Russo ideas like the Brawl For All, siding with Sable over Marc Mero (and Sunny), burying The Road Warriors, putting the belt on Arquette, and Oklahoma.
Bro.
Evening Musuko
Black Korea
Yeah, but sooner or later you realize you'd rather follow something that's actually good instead of watching crap and hoping the wrestlers make the most out of it.
Mike Works
Member
This thread right now:
"WE NEED TO BRING BACK RUSSO!"
"WE NEED TO BRING BACK RUSSO!"
Trumplestiltskin
Banned
Prowrestling is dying in the long-run. If you want to see fighting, there's a lot of options. If you want to see choreographed action movies, there's a lot of options.
If you want to see some weird pseudo-sports opera that is also a traveling circus, well there's wrestling. It is returning to a niche audience where it won't be able to float a national cable network. It will always have a healthy enough audience that the network can sustain it, it will just need to juice the hardcore fans a bit more.
The wrestling has been as good as it's ever been - more wrestling won't fix things. If three hour RAWs were the problem Smackdown would be doing better. If booking or wrestler charisma was the big challenge, why has no one else been able to gain traction against WWE.
Sometimes you just can't save a business, you have to accept the end and manage the decline. The WWE is doing just that by securing a bigger chunk of its falling PPV/event viewers, monetizing its back-library, and creating a travelling smark brand.
If you want to see some weird pseudo-sports opera that is also a traveling circus, well there's wrestling. It is returning to a niche audience where it won't be able to float a national cable network. It will always have a healthy enough audience that the network can sustain it, it will just need to juice the hardcore fans a bit more.
The wrestling has been as good as it's ever been - more wrestling won't fix things. If three hour RAWs were the problem Smackdown would be doing better. If booking or wrestler charisma was the big challenge, why has no one else been able to gain traction against WWE.
Sometimes you just can't save a business, you have to accept the end and manage the decline. The WWE is doing just that by securing a bigger chunk of its falling PPV/event viewers, monetizing its back-library, and creating a travelling smark brand.
TarpitCarnivore
Member
This is why I don't watch WWE much anymore beyond an occasional NXT and the main PPVs.
You could argue that WWE's style of wrestling is dying, but to say the whole business is dying is a little silly. Fans have so much easier access to various forms of promotions now that it's easy to find a fed doing what you dig. NJPW, DDT, Stardom, Progress, Evolve, RevPro, ROH, PWG, Shine, CZW, ICW, and more. Granted a lot of the indie feds have overlap in performers, but there are some small variances in them.
What? Pro Wrestling isn't dying.
excelsiorlef
Member
New Star Wars trilogy would have to be even worse than the prequel trilogy for this. The prequel trilogy would have had to have been a horrible production before Lucas even got on board. Star Wars prequels would have had to have Jar Jar Banks before Lucas.
The fingerpoke of doom did more to kill WCW than Russo ever did. And not only was that before Russo but Russo at the same exact day was putting the world title on Foley in one of the most memorable wrestling moments ever. You're actually using something that was Russo's competition at the height of his success against Russo.
Russo had zip to do with putting the title on Foley.
Trumplestiltskin
Banned
There is literally no way you're going to convince me that any of those recover the pure value destruction/dollars that have bled from wrestling spend on PPV and will from WWE's USA renewal.
To put it bluntly I work with a WWE distributor - Wrestling on TV is dying, and whatever PPV business it once was died with the network. Now you might say WWE's event revenue isn't down but the WWE network was a massive pay cut to distributors, that customers were paying, so the wrestling total addressable market did decline with that.
In the face of that you offer CZW? Really? There's a Vice doc on CZW, the owner lives with his parents.
Maybe live wrestling will have a long life at relatively lucrative clip for a smallish stable of performers - but as mass entertainment that could float billion dollar valuations - that's ending soon, and it won't ever be back.
Indies don't make a lot of money, it's why wrestlers have to work all the time and all over if they actually try to make a career out of it. TV wrestling is suffering now because there's no one compelling on TV. You can see how held back and formulaic everything is, and when they try to do something risque it's something terrible like face Enzo going after Lana a heels actual wife. It actually may have killed Enzo dead who was actually over at the time. 50/50 booking hurts too, the only time people win cosistantly are people facing jobbers like NiaJax and Strowman were last year and that did absolutely nothing for them in the long run. You can be sure that when someone wins over someone they will absolutely wrestle again with the other person winning, unless you're Brock or Cena who are the last protected people they have.
Edit: And Asuka but the second she gets called up they'll have her cut 15 minute promos about her dreaming about this as a little girl, their go to woman's promo right now.
Edit: And Asuka but the second she gets called up they'll have her cut 15 minute promos about her dreaming about this as a little girl, their go to woman's promo right now.
Etrian Oddity
Member
I still have some hope deep down inside.
Remember The Shield? AKA the best-booked and protected project the WWE has probably done in a decade? Their run tells me that one day
we can have competent booking again.
Remember The Shield? AKA the best-booked and protected project the WWE has probably done in a decade? Their run tells me that one day
when Vince is indisposed
slightconfuse
Banned
The young bucks among others have shown you don't need WWE to make a living
TarpitCarnivore
Member
You said pro wrestling is dying and then cited WWE specifically which is why I started my statement off with "WWE style". I was never trying to state that CZW or ROH were on the same level as WWE. I was highlighting that fans are in fact still paying to watch wrestling be it live or via OTT services. I'm in no way delusional to think they could reach peak WWE or current WWE b/c none have the money to pull off what Vince did in the late 80s.
Trumplestiltskin
Banned
If the total revenue of a market is not just declining, but on the brink of collapsing, yeah it sure is dying.
Will there always be a couple of carnies willing to wrestle for merchandise sales? You betcha. As a real business, it's over.
And this thread is about record low ratings of a national cable broadcast. None of the Feds you mention will ever get that opportunity again (except ROH filling Sinclair dead time).
The Silver
Member
I've pretty much stopped watching wrestling recently, I only know what's going on from the threads here and reddit, there's just no character I feel invested in. Bork is always fun to watch but he's not there all the time(and if he was they'd find a way to ruin him), Strowman was fun too for a while but he's injured.
Bucks are in NJPW which I would hardly call an indie, they have a big merch store and their merch is popular, and like I said in my post to make a lot of money you have to work everywhere which the Bucks do. How many more examples of people making a lot of money on the Indies? Del Rio?
There is a lot of people making good money on the Indy scene, Dave talked about it a few weeks back.
HashtagLapsed
Member
He did. He didn't mention names but he said some guys in the UK are making main roster WWE money.
Alucard725
Neo Member
I stopped watching last year. I just don't find the product appealing at this moment. I still check once in a while to see who's the champion and if anything exciting has happened. Nothing will change until Vince is gone.
Jerm411
Member
Kinda the same....got invested for a while when NXT was basically a super indie with Nak, Joe, Balor, Sami, etc. but once they got called up my interest waned completely. Still watch NXT somewhat but the main shows I couldn't really care less about...
Now NJPW on the other hand...love it, really got into it over the past year or so. That's wrestling done right....
Alucard725
Neo Member
Freaking loved NXT about 2 years ago but haven't kept up with it lately. I've heard good things about NJPW.
Vince has so much control right now that there's very little wiggle room for these guys to be themselves. That's very unfortunate because they have some real talent on the rosters and they are going to waste every week.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Big Show just did an interview shitting on the TV writers and doesn't want you to blame him for the shit they make him do on TV and PPVs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_S_FA6OKMo
Wrestlers hate it. Writers hate it. Only person that doesn't is Vince. No one has enough control to do their jobs because of him.
Even if Russo was some sort of godly writer, he'd still have the same problems with vetoes and edits the writers are currently having.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_S_FA6OKMo
Wrestlers hate it. Writers hate it. Only person that doesn't is Vince. No one has enough control to do their jobs because of him.
Even if Russo was some sort of godly writer, he'd still have the same problems with vetoes and edits the writers are currently having.
Camper Van Beethoven
Banned
Can I blame Big Show for being a boring piece of shit in the ring for well for over a decade?
Tom Nook
Member
Good for Big Show for telling it as is. He is in the point of his career where he doesn't give a fuck. If they fired him, so be it. If they buried him, so be it. He saved a lot of money in his career where he doesn't need the push or fame from the WWE.
As for Russo, even if WWE hired him for some reason, it will be just be a one week spark where audience would be interested see what happen then after a few weeks people will stop caring.
UberTag
Member
Pretty much this.
The problem with the WWE isn't that they don't have Vince Russo.
The problem with the WWE is that they DO have Vince McMahon.
We need fewer Vinces, not more of them. And the Vince problem isn't going away until he's dead. He's already on record that he never plans to retire.
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