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[GitarooMan]

I thought I read somewhere that the first stand alone HD DVD player could output 1080i over component. Is Toshiba breaking the law or something by allowing this? I don't know if I'd bother with an HD DVD add on if I can't output the video via component seeing how I don't have an HDMI input.

The Dark One

Might be wrong, but I thought it had to do with the actual software using HDCP or not (i.e. it's up to the studios to lock out 1080i over component on their movies if they want to.)

 

[HokieJoe]

That's not going to happen. It's very easy to see what MS' strategy is with the 360. Offer users a slimmed down package and let them pick and choose the upgrades they want. It's a very modular kind of thinking, so packing in a HD-DVD drive won't be happening for a long time if ever.

I used to think the same thing. Contrary to everything MS is saying ATM, I still wouldn't rule out a built-in HD-DVD. I think any decision will be made WRT the battle with Bluray. I'm *not* saying they will do this, just that it's a possibility that I can't rule out.

JMO

 

[evilromero]

Seriously... I can't quite see how the Xbox 360's stock DVD drive is suddenly going to be upgraded to a blue laser device. It can't happen. I'm thinking a stackable USB slot drive HD-DVD with HDMI port, that uses the Xbox 360 CPU/GPU for all the decoding duties.

Obviously this is the only solution people have come to agree on. Clearly I never said it would somehow magically play HD-DVDs in the 360. But instead I'd like to see MS release a new 360 that would read both 360 and HD-DVD within the same drive.

 

[Smokey]

I don't think the price will be under $150. I can see it in the $170-$200 range though. I just hope it's a quality player. After seeing hacked pics on his TV I'm drooling over these things.

 

[gofreak]

I thought I read somewhere that the first stand alone HD DVD player could output 1080i over component.

It also has HDMI-out. Studios can allow HD signals over component if they want, but that wouldn't be a basis for someone to market a component-only player - "here, have our player - just cross your fingers no studio ever uses ICT".

And again, for those thinking that processing will be done on 360 - how does the video signal get back out of the 360? USB doesn't have the bandwidth to carry a decoded signal to a HDMI port on the add-on. They'll either need to use compression /), find another way to connect it, or find a way to get the video out of the 360 itself that doesn't leave you at the mercy of studios and ICT. Otherwise your add-on will basically need to be a fully-fledged player, and there's really no point in connecting that to a 360.

 

[sonycowboy]

USB doesn't have the bandwidth for that decoded video though, does it? I assumed they'd have to just release some kind of HDMI adapter for the 360 itself, with the addon drive transferring the compressed video to the 360 via USB.

You also have the problem of copyright protection over USB, I'd think. If the 360 is handling the video and putting it back out over the USB port, how is the stream protected? There would have to be some sort of a hack to make sure that the data going between the 360 and the drive would be protected and that means some special mechanism as well.

But are there really any other options? Unless the HD-DVD drive really does everything itself, in which case what's the point of it being an add-on for the 360?

 

[pcostabel]

* SPIEGEL ONLINE: But the 360 doesn't have an HDMI-Interface -- so you won't actually be able to watch any HD DVD Movies on it because the obligatory copy protection mechanisms are missing.

* Lewis: All I can say to you is -- there are interesting developments in the pipeline. We will make sure that the HD-DVD-peripheral device will meet all the requirements for consumers to enjoy high-definition DVD playback.

They will probably release a revised X360 with HDMI out. The HD-DVD addon will just be a USB PC drive.

 

[evilromero]

They will probably release a revised X360 with HDMI out. The HD-DVD addon will just be a USB PC drive.

If this happens early adopters will cry themselves to sleep.

 

[skybaby]

Maybe the addon will fit between the HD and the 360, connect to the 360 mobo using the sata connector and have a HDMI output?

 

[open_mouth_]

I think it'll be $199, be half the height of the 360 and placed underneath (slightly convex), connected through the expansion port (Hard drive connected over it) and it will come with a new A/V hdmi output cable that has to be used in order for protected movies to play. It'll basically be a HDDVD drive with lots of fans to cool both components and all the processing a/v output will be handled by the 360. I think it'll sell to at least 25% of the user base, which should prove enough to make HD-DVD as mainstream as Blu-Ray.

 

[sonycowboy]

Maybe the addon will fit between the HD and the 360, connect to the 360 mobo using the sata connector and have a HDMI output?

That's really the only other port, right? Perhaps a faceplate with the 360 SATA connector and then which becomes a cable that hooks into the HD-DVD drive.

That would mean you'd have to hook and unhook the HD-DVD drive whenever you wanted to play the 360.

 

[sonycowboy]

I think it'll be $199, be half the height of the 360 and placed underneath (slightly convex), connected through the expansion port (Hard drive connected over it) and it will come with a new A/V hdmi output cable that has to be used in order for protected movies to play. It'll basically be a HDDVD drive with lots of fans to cool both components and all the processing a/v output will be handled by the 360. I think it'll sell to at least 25% of the user base, which should prove enough to make HD-DVD as mainstream as Blu-Ray.

:lol :lol

That's a pretty grandious prediction. A 25% attach rate is huge, not so much early on, but to expect that during the holidays and into 2007 folks will buy a 360 + $200 HD-DVD drive + games + Live subscription (and some of them might just buy a PS3 or Rev).

I guess it'll be a pretty killer setup.

 

[BirdBomb]

They should have just slapped it into the console from the start and made games on the medium. Waste of time now imho, unless they work some miracles it will just be a standalone HD-DVD player.

 

[gofreak]

I think it'll sell to at least 25% of the user base, which should prove enough to make HD-DVD as mainstream as Blu-Ray.

That wouldn't make it "as" mainstream as Blu-ray unless you see 360 selling 4 times the units as PS3. Might it make it "mainstream"? I don't know. Even Betamax wound up selling ~20m.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

It'll probably interface with the system for power supply and data connect on the SATA port and the HDD simply can fit on that, daisychained and capping the connection.

 

[skybaby]

That's really the only other port, right? Perhaps a faceplate with the 360 SATA connector and then which becomes a cable that hooks into the HD-DVD drive.

That would mean you'd have to hook and unhook the HD-DVD drive whenever you wanted to play the 360.

I guess youre right. The 360 likely doesn't support 3 SATA devices (the 3rd one being the dvd-rom) hooked up at the same time.

 

[Tenacious-V]

They should have just slapped it into the console from the start and made games on the medium. Waste of time now imho, unless they work some miracles it will just be a standalone HD-DVD player.

Yeah... because that was really a viable option for a November launch timeframe...

 

[TerryLee81]

That's really the only other port, right? Perhaps a faceplate with the 360 SATA connector and then which becomes a cable that hooks into the HD-DVD drive.

That would mean you'd have to hook and unhook the HD-DVD drive whenever you wanted to play the 360.

So it would look kind of like this:

 

[gofreak]

Is the 360 HDD SATA or SATA II? If it's the latter it could have enough bw, but there's still the question if passing the signal over that would be considered OK in terms of complying with the AACS.

 

[open_mouth_]

:lol :lol

That's a pretty grandious prediction. A 25% attach rate is huge, not so much early on, but to expect that during the holidays and into 2007 folks will buy a 360 + $200 HD-DVD drive + games + Live subscription (and some of them might just buy a PS3 or Rev).

I guess it'll be a pretty killer setup.

hd-dvd's branding, first-mover advantage, lower pricing, and Microsoft + 360 support should be enough to at least keep it neck-and-neck with blu-ray's user base, imo. Both sides have advantages, for sure, but no one can announce either side as the victor just yet. My 25% attach rate prediction comes from the fact that most 360 owners are pretty well-off and have or will have their console hooked up to hdtv sets and they'll likely see the hd-dvd add-on as their best/cheapest option for hi-def movies.

 

[Pimpwerx]

The box should have it's own HDMI port IMO, and that's not a huge deal for cost. I imagine you could ping-pong the image decoding/processing between the HD-DVD drive and the 360 before having the HD-DVD add-on spit out the image through its own HDMI connection to your tv. PEACE.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

hd-dvd's branding, first-mover advantage, lower pricing, and Microsoft + 360 support should be enough to at least keep it neck-and-neck with blu-ray's user base, imo. Both sides have advantages, for sure, but no one can announce either side as the victor just yet. My 25% attach rate prediction comes from the fact that most 360 owners are pretty well-off and have or will have their console hooked up to hdtv sets and they'll likely see the hd-dvd add-on as their best/cheapest option for hi-def movies.

if they are pretty well off they would just shell out the extra $100-150 for a real HDDVD player. This seems like a waste of time to me. i guess i can see it having its niche userbase, but mainsream gamers will probably care little about a new movie watching medium. BluRay has the distinct advantage of coming BUILT IN with the ps3, and feeling like a freebie. I'd hardly describe the situation as neck and neck.

 

[Andokuky]

Yeah... because that was really a viable option for a November launch timeframe...

So delay the launch. That would have fixed the bad launch lineup and horrible shortage problems too. Win win win for everyone.

 

[open_mouth_]

if they are pretty well off they would just shell out the extra $100-150 for a real HDDVD player. This seems like a waste of time to me. i guess i can see it having its niche userbase, but mainsream gamers will probably care little about a new movie watching medium. BluRay has the distinct advantage of coming BUILT IN with the ps3, and feeling like a freebie. I'd hardly describe the situation as neck and neck.

i didn't mean 360 hd-dvd userbase would be neck-and-neck with the PS3 user base. I meant that (if done right) the 360 hd-dvd add on along with all that format's other advantages over bluray will prove to be enough to keep it at least neck-and-neck with bluray in terms of hi-def movie sales.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

i didn't mean 360 hd-dvd userbase would be neck-and-neck with the PS3 user base. I meant that (if done right) the 360 hd-dvd add on along with all that format's other advantages over bluray will prove to be enough to keep it at least neck-and-neck with bluray in terms of hi-def movie sales.

thats what i was talking about too. I don't think an addon drive will be able to keep HDDVD's userbase neck and neck with the advantage BluRay has. MS should just think about relaunching an HDDVD movie version of the 360 this fall or next spring or something if they really have an interest in keeping it competitive with BluRay. I don't think an addon will do it.

 

[open_mouth_]

thats what i was talking about too. I don't think an addon drive will be able to keep HDDVD's userbase neck and neck with the advantage BluRay has. MS should just think about relaunching an HDDVD movie version of the 360 this fall or next spring or something if they really have an interest in keeping it competitive with BluRay. I don't think an addon will do it.

I agree. an add-on alone won't do it, but with everything else hd-dvd has going for it over bluray, they should be able to stay competitive, imo, despite all over bluray's advantages.

 

[PjotrStroganov]

I agree. an add-on alone won't do it, but with everything else hd-dvd has going for it over bluray, they should be able to stay competitive, imo, despite all over bluray's advantages.

As far as I know, it really doesn'have much going for it over Blu-ray. Prices of Blu-ray movies aren't going to be (much) higher than ordinary DVD movies. And the amount of studios supporting Blu-ray seems to be getting bigger. Early Blu-ray players will be expensive, but I don't expect HD-DVD players to be bargains too.

 

[soundwave05]

I hope people realize that HD-DVD doesn't even have the support of half the major studios in Hollywood, and I don't see that changing. Last time I checked, Toshiba or Microsoft don't make movies.

If you want any movie title from Columbia/MGM, Disney/Buena Vista, or 20th Century Fox, you're dead out of luck, and from a userbase P.O.V. I don't see how HD-DVD will overtake Blu-Ray without the PS3 factor and with less content support from the get go.

What's the big advantage of HD-DVD again? That its going to be cheap? If PS3 is even $500, that basically throws that whole arguement down the toliet.

 

[----]

Since I've heard them say just before launch that they would consider releasing an HDMI cable for the Xbox 360 if they felt it was necessary (market penetration), I think it is possible that the HD DVD drive will simply come with an HDMI cable that you connect to the Xbox 360 in place of the current component cable connection. My concern would be that the USB port does not provide enough power for the drive and so you would also have to have another power cord.

If they're going to actually go through with this add-on then it better be slick as hell and very cheap. This thing better be svelte, slot loading, or have some nice display. Also there should be some kind of gaming bonus for buying it like getting additional USB ports and an HDMI cable.

Personally right now I don't plan to buy any Blu-Ray or HD DVD movies, but I would definitely rent all of my movies in those formats. If PS3 and Xbox 360 provide the cheapest way to be able to do that then I'm all for it. I just don't want some giant ugly Sega CD looking device sitting next to my Xbox 360. The thing better be as unobtrusive as possible.

 

[Dracos]

With a wireless network adapter that costs $99, how can this add-on be anywhere near $100. Close to $200 or more IMO.

 

[----]

Isn't the best way to figure out approximately how much this device will be to look at how much HD-DVD drives will cost for the PC?

 

[mrklaw]

there has to be a way for MS to have HDMI out on the xbox360 unit itself. The only way it'll work, surely?

maybe just a custom AVout cable that has HDMI stuff built in.

 

[Tenacious-V]

So delay the launch. That would have fixed the bad launch lineup and horrible shortage problems too. Win win win for everyone.

The launch lineup was just fine. As for supply problems, it'd be even worse if they used an HDDVD drive and launched in spring. I mean hell, the HDDVD launch only had something like 50,000 players. And you expect them to have millions ready for MS?

 

[wasting]

Last time I checked, Toshiba or Microsoft don't make movies.

No, but Microsoft makes this thing called Windows, which will support HD-DVD.

 

[DJ Sl4m]

HDMI or DVI output with HD-component input from the 360 outputting to the HD-DVD , whats so hard to understand about that ?

 

[soundwave05]

No, but Microsoft makes this thing called Windows, which will support HD-DVD.

And Blu-Ray won't run on Windows? :lol

Wouldn't Blu-Ray be the superior format for PC use anyway, because it has greater storage per disc to boot?

 

[8bit]

 

[PhatSaqs]

:lol :lol

 

[DJ Sl4m]

With a VMU on the side for more subtlety, nice.

 

[Mmmkay]

HDMI or DVI output with HD-component input from the 360 outputting to the HD-DVD , whats so hard to understand about that ?

I think I see what you're saying here. The problem there is that firstly you're going from a digital source to analog signal then back to a digital one in the component -> HD-DVD drive phase and it's much better to keep everything digital. Secondly, any ICT title is going to constrain resolutions to 960x540 when it passes out of the 360 into the HD-DVD drive.

So we'll be going:

1080(digital source) -> 540(analog 360 - possibly upscaled by the 360's scaler to 720/1080) -> 1080(digital HD-DVD) -> TV

 

[AdmiralViscen]

I'd think it would have to be. It doesn't need processing power to do the actual decoding since the 360 will do that, and high definition video requires a lot more brute power than, say, regular DVD, so that should make for a pretty significant price different right there. Plus, hardware manufacturers will want to earn a profit on their HD-DVD players, whereas I'm sure Microsoft is much less concerned about that for their HD-DVD addon.

Have you seen the prices for all of their other add-ons?

 

[PjotrStroganov]

Secondly, any ICT title is going to constrain resolutions to 960x540 when it passes out of the 360 into the HD-DVD drive.

I don't know what you mean with ICT but it seems there is not going to be a restriction in resolution. At least, that is what I got from the interview. People without an hdmi input on the tv have to be able to watch HD res movies. It seems this is going to be possible via component.

 

[DJ Sl4m]

If thats the case maybe they are going to go with a seperate HDMI outout with a data transfer cable of some sort so the 360 CPU can work with the HD-player.

Seems a bit messy with extra wires plus it eats up another HD input in the back of HDTV's.

 

[skybaby]

I don't know what you mean with ICT but it seems there is not going to be a restriction in resolution. At least, that is what I got from the interview. People without an hdmi input on the tv have to be able to watch HD res movies. It seems this is going to be possible via component.

The signal will be limited to 540p if the output is analog (component cables instead of HDMI/DVI). Unless the studios dont lock their HD-DVDs, like they are doing right now, you can run them at full res over component.

 

[Mmmkay]

I don't know what you mean with ICT but it seems there is not going to be a restriction in resolution. At least, that is what I got from the interview. People without an hdmi input on the tv have to be able to watch HD res movies. It seems this is going to be possible via component.

ICT is the Image Constraint Token flag which features on every HD/Blu-Ray disc as part of AACS. It determines whether a player is permitted to output a full signal over an analog/digital(non HDCP) cable. The 360 is not going to ignore the flag, and any title which features ICT=1 will have to down-rez to 960x540 before leaving the 360.

Now, there is nothing in AACS which says that the signal cannot be upscaled back to 720/1080 after it has been constrained. This could well be what he was saying in the interview - that the 360 will still output a full rez signal (but not telling us that with ICT titles, it will be an upscaled image). It's obviously a lossy process and the quality of the final image will not be the same as playing the same title through a HDCP compliant output.

 

[PjotrStroganov]

The signal will be limited to 540p if the output is analog (component cables instead of HDMI/DVI). Unless the studios dont lock their HD-DVDs, like they are doing right now, you can run them at full res over component.

Check the quote from the interview again.

* Lewis: All I can say to you is -- there are interesting developments in the pipeline. We will make sure that the HD-DVD-peripheral device will meet all the requirements for consumers to enjoy high-definition DVD playback.

Down and upscaling the picture would be stupid anyway. This would not provide any advantages over upscaling normal DVD's.

It seems there are some changes coming. In Japan there is allready an agreement that HD signals over component will be fully supported by publishers until the year 20xx. Maybe this will be so for the whole world.

Ah I found the article http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90437&highlight=HDTV

 

[Mmmkay]

It seems there are some changes coming. In Japan there is allready an agreement that HD signals over component will be fully supported by publishers until the year 20xx. Maybe this will be so for the whole world.

An ambiguous PR statement does not override what we know to be in the AACS interim LA and which is expected to feature in the final LA later this year.

Please note he talks of the 'consumers requirements' which says nothing about AACS, and as I already explained it is still possible to output a 'high definition' signal after it has been constrained to 960x540 - it just isn't natively high definition.

In Japan there is a law which prohibits content providers from assigning an ICT=1 flag until 2010, but it doesn't remove the concept of the flag in that territory. ICT has no legal restrictions in any other country.

 

[PjotrStroganov]

An ambiguous PR statement does not override what we know to be in the AACS interim LA and which is expected to feature in the final LA later this year.

Please note he talks of the 'consumers requirements' which says nothing about AACS, and as I already explained it is still possible to output a 'high definition' signal after it has been constrained to 960x540 - it just isn't natively high definition.

But explain to me then how Microsoft is going to promote this HD-DVD drive with a strait face to component only users. There is no point of buying the thing because the image quality of the signal isn't going to be any better that that of a DVD. Okay, maybe there is a little difference with at one side, the tv doing the upscaling and at the other side the Xbox 360/HD-DVD drive doing the upscaling of a normal DVD image. But in reality there is no point for these people to buy the drive.

In Japan there is a law which prohibits content providers from assigning an ICT=1 flag until 2010, but it doesn't remove the concept of the flag in that territory. ICT has no legal restrictions in any other country.

I'm just saying that studios seem to get smart. After googling Image Constraint Token, I also got multiple links in which it is said that many studios won;t be implementing it in the first gen HD-DVD and Blu-ray movies. This could be a sign of future agreements on the implementation of the protocol.

 

[wasting]

And Blu-Ray won't run on Windows? :lol

Wouldn't Blu-Ray be the superior format for PC use anyway, because it has greater storage per disc to boot?

Ofcourse it will, it will just need 3rd party java support, unlike HDDVD which will be supported by Windows..

 

[Ponn]

Ofcourse it will, it will just need 3rd party java support, unlike HDDVD which will be supported by Windows..

MS not playing friendly with a major competitors product on another of their platforms?! *shock and awe*