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Xbox LIVE Indie Games - The June 2011 Thread

R

RustyO

Member
I figure here is a good enough place to ask...

I'm getting into XNA programming, teaching myself C#

Can any one recommend a couple of good books?

Think one for a beginner, one for moderate. (I have decent skills, can already code a bit, but am being realistic)

Or is there a good thread on NeoGAF?

Or another good forum for that kind of thing?
 
G

Gaspode_T

Member
I think the book widely believed to be the best is now: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0672333457/?tag=neogaf0e-20

Stay away from any of the 3.X books, the way that graphics rendering works totally changed for 4.0.

With game programming, as with most other things in life, finishing is much more important than starting.

The amount of people who can take a project to the end and polish up menu screen, clear certification requirements, etc is very slim, so my advice is to start small and reasonable and just try to get something released.

After the initial pain the following games should be much easier to create and release, you don't want to spend 12 months on your first game and then do a bunch of noob things and feel like a failure...better to feel like a noob after 3 months and then come back swinging. The certification on XBLIG is apparently a pain, but it's also often advised to become an active member of the community by participating in peer reviews so that you understand how the process works from both sides.

As advice, I would say that it would be smart to learn both WP7 and XBLIG at the same time since the world will have a crapload of Nokia WP7 phones released from 2012 on and might have some slightly different programming paradigms to learn.
 
K

Kafel

Banned
emz said:
hey guys, my account just got approved, but I registered back Feb (just like j00ce!) when our game (Train Frontier Express) was posted to Feb's XBLIGs thread. Had just wanted to say thanks for, well, posting about it then--small as it was, it was a cool motivator on a we-thought-it-would-take-one-month-now-going-on-ten kind of project. I won't spam our first video we just put up in my first post, but it's easy to find searching for TFE.

Anyway, thanks again and glad to be in the thread!
Click to expand...

Your game looked good. Don't worry about posting new things about it from time to time.
 
G

Gaspode_T

Member
I thought NeoGAF was working on some sort of Dudebro game, whatever happened to that? My other advice would be to find a partner to work on a game together, you will have more accountability and be able to bounce ideas off of each other and keep each other motivated. If you suck at art you can find someone who loves making GIFs or Photoshopping. I know of at least one "Let's make games for XNA!" thread at PAF: http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showthread.php?t=116540 but maybe you can find someone by posting here or at App Hub.

Also if you are frustrated when learning C# try not to focus too much on understanding what each framework piece is there for and instead just write code and debug. Debug debug debug. The more you debug the more you will understand. Just staring at code is like holding a DVD in your hands, you have to actually interact with it to truly understand it. Only reading a book is also bad, it's much better to take the samples and totally mess with them instead.
 
D

DaveVoyles

Member
The best way I found to learn programming is to grab someone else's finished (or somewhat finished) work and play around with it. You'll run into a ton of problems along the way, but no amount of reading or books could compare to how much you learn from that.

For example, I took a working car which fired missiles, then adjusted it so suit my needs while I was learning. Swapping out weapons, ammunition, how things fire, how to pick up weapons and health, which items the vehicle drops when it dies, etc.

Like I said, the issues you run into a long the way are the best way to learn. That, and reading the same things over and over until they finally click. Read, go do some work, come back and read the same thing in a week and it suddenly makes so much sense.
 
D

DaveVoyles

Member
toythatkills said:
Haha, some of those are awesome. Liking keyboard cat. No chance of me finding this in HMV later though, is there?
Click to expand...

3D Dot Heroes was an absolutely blast to play. It's honestly a 3D version of A Link to the Past, so if you enjoyed that game, then you'll love this. It's the closest thing I've come to having that experience again. You should be able to find it for pretty cheap by now.
 
W

wwm0nkey

Member
DaveVoyles said:
3D Dot Heroes was an absolutely blast to play. It's honestly a 3D version of A Link to the Past, so if you enjoyed that game, then you'll love this. It's the closest thing I've come to having that experience again. You should be able to find it for pretty cheap by now.
Click to expand...
Its like $17 at GameStop now.
 
O

OnPoint

Member
DaveVoyles said:
3D Dot Heroes was an absolutely blast to play. It's honestly a 3D version of A Link to the Past,
Click to expand...

I don't know about all that, but the game was a really good Zelda-alike and definitely a good time. It gets a little tedious toward the end (the last couple dungeons are just a straight up grind) but it's chock-full of references to not just Zelda, but Final Fantasy and other games from the 8-bit era.
 
F

FunInfusedGames

Member
http://youtu.be/g0bVCo2FTnA

Finally got a real trailer looking thing (more of a teaser really) for Volchaos.

Also finalized the nominee list for the Summer Uprising... 74 games up for vote! WOW. When we started this, I had no idea there would be so many games. And many of them look really good too, a lot of good games are going to be left out sadly. The quality of the overall promo looks like it could be very high.
 
O

OnPoint

Member
FunInfusedGames said:
http://youtu.be/g0bVCo2FTnA

Finally got a real trailer looking thing (more of a teaser really) for Volchaos.

Also finalized the nominee list for the Summer Uprising... 74 games up for vote! WOW. When we started this, I had no idea there would be so many games. And many of them look really good too, a lot of good games are going to be left out sadly. The quality of the overall promo looks like it could be very high.
Click to expand...

Did you use my comment about him looking like Walker in your trailer? haha that's awesome if so
 
T

toythatkills

Member
FunInfusedGames said:
Also finalized the nominee list for the Summer Uprising... 74 games up for vote! WOW. When we started this, I had no idea there would be so many games. And many of them look really good too, a lot of good games are going to be left out sadly. The quality of the overall promo looks like it could be very high.
Click to expand...
Wow. It is going to take quite some time for people to go through all those!
 
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FunInfusedGames

Member
Did you use my comment about him looking like Walker in your trailer? haha that's awesome if so
Click to expand...

Actually I didn't make the trailer, one of the swell fellows at http://vvgtv.com/ did.

Volchaos needs a super hard "outrun the nuée ardenté" level!
Click to expand...
Every level has lava rising up from below you (not coming from right to left though), which in a way is a bit like that. That's sorta the hook to the game, you NEED to be fast. That game isn't easy, especially in later levels if you try and collect all the gems too.

There is one level with a wall of firebats headed at you that you need to run away from until you can find one of the jump blocks which lets you bounce over them and then you go back the way you came to find the flag.
 
D

djtiesto

is beloved, despite what anyone might say
DaveVoyles said:
I don't need to play Dude Bro - I unfortunately live it every day of my life. I'm from Long Island.
Click to expand...

You'll have no interest in my XBLIG then... as it's an adventure game taking place in an anachronistic 90's version of the island...

Speaking of which, I finally compiled a bunch of photographs to use as reference pics. Time to actually start drawing the stuff. I'm very eager to see what everybody will think, as it's something I'm doing entirely by hand (aside from the music). The genre I'm doing, a first-person J-style adventure, isn't exactly gonna set the world on fire... but I'm mostly making it as a learning experience.

Does anybody have tips on licensing music? Like, I'd love stuff by Tensnake, Mord Fustang, Deadmau5 in my game...
 
H

HadesGigas

Member
toythatkills said:
Oh my God at Rainbow Runner. It's like a ridiculously colourful Ikaruga as an endless runner.
Click to expand...

Wish it didn't have the Xbox face buttons color gimmick. In the heat of the gameplay, I will never remember their colors, ever.

Also it feels like I'd be better at this game if I had three hands.
 
D

DaveVoyles

Member
djtiesto said:
You'll have no interest in my XBLIG then... as it's an adventure game taking place in an anachronistic 90's version of the island...

Speaking of which, I finally compiled a bunch of photographs to use as reference pics. Time to actually start drawing the stuff. I'm very eager to see what everybody will think, as it's something I'm doing entirely by hand (aside from the music). The genre I'm doing, a first-person J-style adventure, isn't exactly gonna set the world on fire... but I'm mostly making it as a learning experience.

Does anybody have tips on licensing music? Like, I'd love stuff by Tensnake, Mord Fustang, Deadmau5 in my game...
Click to expand...


Really? In that case I'm genuinely curious!
 
T

toythatkills

Member
HadesGigas said:
Wish it didn't have the Xbox face buttons color gimmick. In the heat of the gameplay, I will never remember their colors, ever.

Also it feels like I'd be better at this game if I had three hands.
Click to expand...
Hah, I'm usually okay with the colours, it's more just panicking and pressing the first one I can get my finger on that does me in.

And yeah, shooting and colour changing is difficult to do together, but it's still a great deal of fun :)
 
O

OnPoint

Member
HadesGigas said:
Wish it didn't have the Xbox face buttons color gimmick. In the heat of the gameplay, I will never remember their colors, ever.

Also it feels like I'd be better at this game if I had three hands.
Click to expand...

This is pretty much how I feel about the game. I absolutely love it until I need to change colors rapidly and in quick succession.
 
D

dragonelite

Member
What are some of the best 3D games out there for XBLIG all i get on youtube are isometric map stuff. I know about the avatar adventure and fortress craft.

I need a personal project to keep me at school in the free hours. And i want to run it on my 360 so i want to know what XBLIG devs have gotten out of xbla on 360. Fortress craft looks good in my eyes.
 
T

theMrCravens

Member
Not sure if this is the right thread to ask, but...

Anyone know if the guy(s) who made "Tempura of the Dead" and "Aban Hawkins & the 1000 Spikes" are working on a new indie project ? Do they have a webpage or twitter ?
 
D

dragonelite

Member
Kafel said:
I didn't get the XBLA part.

If it's something school related, try Kodu.
Click to expand...

Kodu is not worth it.
XBLIG are made with the XNA framework.
That is why i wanted to see what was possible in 3D with xna on the 360.
Already made a 2D game this school year very simple.

That is why i wanted to know what the XBLIG devs have pushed out of the 360 with xna.
I have all the tools to debug on the 360 with xna love being a student getting free stuff from microsoft :p.
 
T

toythatkills

Member
dragonelite said:
Kodu is not worth it.
XBLIG are made with the XNA framework.
That is why i wanted to see what was possible in 3D with xna on the 360.
Already made a 2D game this school year very simple.

That is why i wanted to know what the XBLIG devs have pushed out of the 360 with xna.
I have all the tools to debug on the 360 with xna love being a student getting free stuff from microsoft :p.
Click to expand...
Surely Kodu is a brilliant example of what's possible with XNA in 3D?

I assume this is what he meant.
 
S

SmallCaveGames

Neo Member
Avaglide is a 3D game. Avatar games are often 3D since some of the assets are provided and easy to work with. I believe some are on 2D plane though - not sure because I don't play too many of them.

Lil' Demons is another recent example.

I can tell you from experience that plenty is possible in 3D within the confines of XNA/XBLIG. You obviously have to be very careful to maintain performance, and be wary of the 150 MB limit. Textures and models need to be designed with that in mind. We're still seeing exactly how far we can push before hitting some of those walls.
 
D

dragonelite

Member
SmallCaveGames said:
Avaglide is a 3D game. Avatar games are often 3D since some of the assets are provided and easy to work with. I believe some are on 2D plane though - not sure because I don't play too many of them.

Lil' Demons is another recent example.

I can tell you from experience that plenty is possible in 3D within the confines of XNA/XBLIG. You obviously have to be very careful to maintain performance, and be wary of the 150 MB limit. Textures and models need to be designed with that in mind. We're still seeing exactly how far we can push before hitting some of those walls.
Click to expand...

Thanks for those links.
Lil'Demons has a interesting look.

And that rpg is that your project?
Next year with computer science i get concurrent programming so hope to master multi threading better. And from what i heard XNA on 360 only gives you 4 threads to work with.
Gonna use my free time this summer vacation to learn some C++ and directX9.
 
D

DaveVoyles

Member
I agree, 3D becomes somewhat difficult on XBLIG due to the size restrictions of the files. 150MB isn't much space for models and textures when you consider that the rest of the items you need in the game.
 
K

Kafel

Banned
Oh yeah I've played this one with the old green/red glasses from the Mickey Magazine I think. I had a blast.

Kodu is a good example of what can be done in 3D AND you can have it on the side to test your (simple) game ideas. That's why I mentioned it.
 
T

toythatkills

Member
besiktas1 said:
Wow that's pretty bad, probably been talked to death but what can be done to help sales in general? :(
Click to expand...
At this point, nothing.

The service is 2 1/2 years old and the good games are still getting shit sales, if people aren't buying stuff now they're never going to. If developers want to make money, they're going to need to move to Steam or iOS.

Of course, Microsoft could add achievements out of the blue next week for all we know and then sales would go crazy. Until then, there's not really any hope for anyone unless you're willing to do something creatively inept like make Minecraft.
 
K

Kafel

Banned
It's the top rated game (in France) but people don't want to try something new and possibly pay 240 points for it.
 
B

besiktas1

Member
toythatkills said:
At this point, nothing.

The service is 2 1/2 years old and the good games are still getting shit sales, if people aren't buying stuff now they're never going to. If developers want to make money, they're going to need to move to Steam or iOS.

Of course, Microsoft could add achievements out of the blue next week for all we know and then sales would go crazy. Until then, there's not really any hope for anyone unless you're willing to do something creatively inept like make Minecraft.
Click to expand...

I believe achievements would help too but it makes me wonder, (I know it's a much bigger market but) iOS games did/do fine without achievements... Then again 360 is the home for achievements so the whole market expects them with what they play.

I wonder, (and have no idea how they'd implement) but how would ad enabled games help?
 
T

toythatkills

Member
besiktas1 said:
I believe achievements would help too but it makes me wonder, (I know it's a much bigger market but) iOS games did/do fine without achievements... Then again 360 is the home for achievements so the whole market expects them with what they play.
Click to expand...
iOS games did okay without achievements where there was no other option and when achievements weren't part of Apple's things. There was always (and still is) one class of game, everything was equal and so everything had an equal chance of getting sales and getting promoted. Look at WP7, it does the same thing that XBLIG does, it has games with achievements that they market that do well and then Indie Games hidden away it the attic like the idiot child that sell fuck all. Microsoft doesn't give a shit and they never will.

The way Microsoft and most consumers see it is this: Xbox games and XBLA games are Mr T's house. XBLIGs are the tramps that hang around his bins. Xbox LIVE Indie Games aren't taken seriously as games by Microsoft, and so they'll never be taken seriously by a majority of people, either.
 
S

SmallCaveGames

Neo Member
Achievements I am torn on - could be a massive can of worms. Think about it "in the wrong hands." If the community is capable of making 10 massage apps (just one example), how many "press A for 10 achievement points!" will there be?

I lean more towards:

1. Heavier quality guidelines enforced.
2. More support and interaction with the community from MS. (aka, stop the list freezes, ratings manipulation, better browsing options, etc)
3. Some basic marketing support. More dashspace, promotions, recognition, etc.

Not saying any of this will happen. It's all been mentioned before. But that's a cleaner, more long term approach to getting more sales in the channel. It needs to be cleaned up and shown off.

That said DBP is a great way to get some promotion. People seem to forget that those finalists sit on a seperate list for a full 12 months.
 
F

FunInfusedGames

Member
Microsoft has said free games are coming, I'd assume w/ ads, but they haven't said if XBLIG will get them or not. I don't know if I'd like this concept... WP7 games have free or paid versions and the free downloads destroy the paid ones by a factor of over 100. It's a completely different market if you add in free.

The customer base of XBLIG is an interesting one. I think it skews younger and more casual. Lots of gamers looking for avatar games and cheap laughs more so than quality games. My top selling game is definitely not my best one or my best rated one but it's got Avatars.

I think Achievements would help a TON but I'm not holding my breath on that. I also think Kinect support could help a lot too.

If you're making games for XBLIG, the smart play is to look into porting elsewhere too. This is what I've started doing... I've got Hypership on both XBLIG and WP7 now and it's coming to PC and Mac in the near future. Abduction Action is on XBLIG and it's coming soon to WP7. The effort to port to another platform is much less than the upfront work. I'll definitely post some sales comparisons to XBLIG when I get the PC and Mac versions out as I think it'll be really interesting how a game sells on different markets.
 
Trumpets

Trumpets

Member
FunInfusedGames said:
If you're making games for XBLIG, the smart play is to look into porting elsewhere too. This is what I've started doing... I've got Hypership on both XBLIG and WP7 now and it's coming to PC and Mac in the near future. Abduction Action is on XBLIG and it's coming soon to WP7.
Click to expand...

How do the WP7 sales compare to XBLIG ones? I assume they're a fair bit lower?
 
W

Warm Machine

Member
DaveVoyles said:
I agree, 3D becomes somewhat difficult on XBLIG due to the size restrictions of the files. 150MB isn't much space for models and textures when you consider that the rest of the items you need in the game.
Click to expand...

Not to be oppositional but 150 meg has been pretty good.

Orbitron:Revolution comes in at 52 meg as a game package or something like that, with audio taking most of the space.

The ring model is 156,000 tris and pretty brute force, so no instancing of the sections (where we could save space).

The player ship(s) (2350 tris) and enemy models (average of 500 tris) are quite simple relatively speaking, but almost every model has a color map, spec map, normal map, and emmisive map. The average size texture is 512x512. The Player's ship and Ring sections are unwrapped with 1024x1024 textures. The skybox is comprised of 3 2048x2048 maps.

Throughout development I was pretty memory conscious, but coming out at the end taking only 1/3rd the memory requirements made me wish I had pushed the art a little more.

If anyone here is interested, I can do a breakdown of a model for the game that shows off the wireframe, texture unwraps, etc.
 
F

FunInfusedGames

Member
How do the WP7 sales compare to XBLIG ones? I assume they're a fair bit lower?
Click to expand...

I have two versions of Hypership (paid at $1.99 and free). Sales and downloads of the paid version are awful. It probably wasn't worth the effort of making a paid version.

The free version gets more than 100 times the downloads the paid one gets. I get a solid $30 to $40 a month off of the ad revenue. Not much either, but far better than the paid version and given that it took me a month to do the port, it's not terrible.

What I really like about the WP7 version is that it has real online high scores, not the peer to peer stuff I had to do on XBLIG. http://www.funinfused.com/highScores.aspx?gameID=1&categoryID=1 Peer to peer worked at first but now that the total gamers playing Hypership has dwindled, it's mostly useless. Many more people play the WP7 version daily (which I know because I can see their scores).
 
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