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[MilkyJoe]

TBH thinking of Scorpio as a 4K console kind of kills my hype for it, because it's only 6TF..that's just not enough power to have high solid frame rates at that resolution. I really really hope MS doesnt secretly discourage devs from choosing high fidelity visuals at 1080p/60fps over just achieving 4K. God I'd love a jaw dropping 'KI4' at 1080/60.

Eric X @ThatDudeizEric[/B]
@XboxP3 with the Xbox Scorpio, is the 4k mandatory or can devs go for 1080p 60fps with massively upgraded visuals and upscale to 4k?

Phil Spencer ✔ @XboxP3
@ThatDudeizEric We'll talk more about this later but we never said we'd mandate 4K framebuffer, we won't.
5:34 AM - 20 Jun 2016
12 12 Retweets 20 20 likes

http://www.windowscentral.com/xbox-...ct-scorpio-wont-force-games-use-4k-resolution

 

[tapedeck]

every time this comes around, and every time the devs make the same choices. Your racing games, fighting games and FPS games will likely be 60fps, and most other types of games will be 30. Just like before.

If you absolutely must have 60, you have to go PC where you can choose where to prioritise the power you have available.

Sue me for just wanting a fully capable console, at 1080/60 Scorpio is, at 4K it's the same shit from this gen all over again. I'm not a PC gamer, I'm not buying a gaming PC. Those two facts don't magically prevent me from wanting the best possible use of a consoles power.

Couldn't the current KI run at 4K/60fps on Scorpio hardware, though?

Sure, but I'm talking about a sequel with improved visuals

Eric X @ThatDudeizEric[/B]
@XboxP3 with the Xbox Scorpio, is the 4k mandatory or can devs go for 1080p 60fps with massively upgraded visuals and upscale to 4k?

Phil Spencer ✔ @XboxP3
@ThatDudeizEric We'll talk more about this later but we never said we'd mandate 4K framebuffer, we won't.
5:34 AM - 20 Jun 2016
12 12 Retweets 20 20 likes

http://www.windowscentral.com/xbox-...ct-scorpio-wont-force-games-use-4k-resolution

I'm aware they won't mandate it, I'm hoping they don't push devs towards 4K.

 

[Septic360]

You say that like every generation doesn't have a "most powerful console of all time."

Doesn't change the fact that it could most likely be the most powerful console of all time. Why nit-pick?

 

[Metfanant]

Sue me for just wanting a fully capable console, at 1080/60 Scorpio is, at 4K it's the same shit from this gen all over again. I'm not a PC gamer, I'm not buying a gaming PC. Those two facts don't magically prevent me from wanting the best possible use of a consoles power.

His point is that your current consoles are "fully capable" as well...but that developers generally choose fancy visuals over higher framerste...Scorpio won't change that

Doesn't change the fact that it could most likely be the most powerful console of all time. Why nit-pick?

Nobody is nitpicking, it was just a silly thing to say...if you have a PS4 you're using the most powerful console ever...if you had a PS3 before that you had the most powerful console ever...and so on back through the generations...

Probably 2 years after Scorpio the PS5 will be the most powerful console ever...

 

[darkinstinct]

Sue me for just wanting a fully capable console, at 1080/60 Scorpio is, at 4K it's the same shit from this gen all over again. I'm not a PC gamer, I'm not buying a gaming PC. Those two facts don't magically prevent me from wanting the best possible use of a consoles power.


Sure, but I'm talking about a sequel with improved visuals


I'm aware they won't mandate it, I'm hoping they don't push devs towards 4K.

Which is what he is doing now. He's saying the system is built for 4K gaming, Xbox One games in 4K specifically. I'm sure we won't see any first party games do anything but just scale resolution and use the same assets as the Xbox One version. Others will probably prefer 1080p/60 over 900p/30 and do that. But what really doesn't make any sense is the talk about no Scorpio exclusives. Xbox One won't do VR. Scorpio will. And those games will be exclusive, unless they mandate PC/Scorpio releases.

 

[tapedeck]

His point is that your current consoles are "fully capable" as well...but that developers generally choose fancy visuals over higher framerste...Scorpio won't change that

Youdontsay.gif. That's exactly why I expressed concern in the first place..

Getting fancy visuals at 4K with 6TF of power is gonna yeild even worse frame rates than current gem..that's my point, the console is not powerful enough to significantly upgrade visuals and run at 4K. If we get fantastic looking games at 1080/60 great...but if the main purpose of Scorpio is just to run current gen stuff at 4K with some minor upgrades than I'll pass.

 

[MilkyJoe]

I'm aware they won't mandate it, I'm hoping they don't push devs towards 4K.

they can only push their own

 

[Syrus]

Im excited for stupid good 1080/60 AAA but also the indie or less intensive games being 4k native.

 

[walltowall]

Youdontsay.gif. That's exactly why I expressed concern in the first place..

Getting fancy visuals at 4K with 6TF of power is gonna yeild even worse frame rates than current gem..that's my point, the console is not powerful enough to significantly upgrade visuals and run at 4K. If we get fantastic looking games at 1080/60 great...but if the main purpose of Scorpio is just to run current gen stuff at 4K with some minor upgrades than I'll pass.

Im excited for stupid good 1080/60 AAA but also the indie or less intensive games being 4k native.

Why is it either or? I mean what's stopping a developer from doing 1600/60 or 1800/60 with all the bells and whistles and leave the rest up to the scaler. I think that the idea that games have to be 1080p or 4K is nuts. If anything, the current Xbox shows us that devs are not afraid to tinker w/ resolution to get the results they desire.

 

[chromatic9]

Couldn't the current KI run at 4K/60fps on Scorpio hardware, though?

It does. 2160p at 60fps on a GTX 970 max settings. With something like 390x/980 perf you have room to improve the graphics as well.

 

[Gamezone]

Halo MCC is 65 GB. Quantum Break has 120 GB. They will just add stuff via day 1 patches.

Halo 5 needs to add multiplayer, and Quantum Break adds cutscenes you don't need go get the story. Both games can be played fully without these downloads. At some point they have to sacrifice things that'll make games unplayable because the majority of games won't fit on one disc, making physical games useless, and making the console pretty much always online.

They have to start printing games on bigger Blu-ray discs.

 

[SEGAvangelist]

Sure, but I'm talking about a sequel with improved visuals.

By the time a sequel needs to come out, a new console beyond Scorpio will be right around the corner. At this point they could just target the Scorpio as the base console with a lower resolution and hit 4K on the newer console.

I see this type of thing happening for the current generation in order to make sure Xbox One remains forward compatible for a few more years. Targeting 900p/1080p (depending on frame rate) on Xbox One should get you to 4K on the Scorpio. Developers can do this until 2018 or 2019 and just move to Scorpio as the base console. This gives the Xbox One a 5-6 year generation which is perfectly fine, IMO.

 

[infinityBCRT]

So will the Scorpio games already be limited to 50 GB discs because of the original Xbox One?

My guess would be if the games basically have the same models, textures, etc across both versions, they'd just go multi disc 50gb bluray. If its a case where Scorpio pushes a game over the 50gb threshold or has completely different assets across the board that exceed 50gb, then maybe they have an additional UHD install disc for scorpio. But then the game would still be played via the 50gb bluray disc across xb1 & scorpio. They are tied to using a 50gb bluray as a play disc unless they can firmware update the original XB1 to read UHDs. I think they aren't sweating it though as digital adoption continues to grow.

 

[Herp Derpington]

His point is that your current consoles are "fully capable" as well...but that developers generally choose fancy visuals over higher framerste...Scorpio won't change that



Nobody is nitpicking, it was just a silly thing to say...if you have a PS4 you're using the most powerful console ever...if you had a PS3 before that you had the most powerful console ever...and so on back through the generations...

Probably 2 years after Scorpio the PS5 will be the most powerful console ever...

If he's an Xbox fan it makes sense. Although it can be argued whether the PS3 really had any clear edge over the 360 it's a legitimate thing to say that a fan of Xbox can be happy that not since 2005 will they have had the clear cut most powerful console. What's wrong with him pointing that out?

 

[Ushay]

Youdontsay.gif. That's exactly why I expressed concern in the first place..

Getting fancy visuals at 4K with 6TF of power is gonna yeild even worse frame rates than current gem..that's my point, the console is not powerful enough to significantly upgrade visuals and run at 4K. If we get fantastic looking games at 1080/60 great...but if the main purpose of Scorpio is just to run current gen stuff at 4K with some minor upgrades than I'll pass.

Didnt they say they approached developers and asked what they needed to achieve 4k? Remember consoles can achieve more with their power envelop than PCs can of equivalent processing power by virtue of optimisations etc.

 

[CrazE]

Hopefully we're going to get a new Red Dead Redemption made for the Scorpio. All the bells and whistles. Mmmmmmmmm.

 

[Caio]

6 TF in a closed environment is a lot; it can do 4K, but maybe is better to have 1080p/60fps with so much more details, better effects, textures, lighting, physics, etc !

Don't do the usual mistake to compare it with an equivalent PC : the same hardware in a Console(closed environment) can do so much more than a PC.

It is old, but it is still valid :
""For the same given paper spec, a console will deliver twice the perf of a PC, and a PC will deliver twice the perf of a mobile part.
""

https://twitter.com/id_aa_carmack/status/436012673243693056

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

It's going to be interesting to see just how far they can push graphics while running at true 4K. So far PC gamers are basically 'brute forcing' 4K, but we haven't seen any targeted development on fixed spec hardware yet like the Scorpio will provide. The good old console optimization counts for something.

I suspect there will be a fair bit of gas left in the tank over just XB1 games at 4K. More like Uncharted 4 at 4K/30fps is what I'm thinking.

I think Turn10 will put out a showcase FM7 at launch with true 4K/60fps and VR. I'm going to guess that Crackdown 3 will get the treatment too. I hope the Scorpio version is 60fps hnnnnnnnnng!

Still, most games will hopefully go the bells and whistles route. It would be nice to know the CPU of this thing as it has the potential to make a big difference in overall performance. I think they will announce / leak it after the Neo is locked in. If it's worth shouting about that is.

 

[VincentMatts]

You say that like every generation doesn't have a "most powerful console of all time."


Does "most powerful" mean something different in your part of the world?

Does games running better on 360 90% of the time mean something in yours?

 

[Samurai G0SU]

How would a game of 1440p upscale to 4k?(2160p)

I almost want to imagine 3rd party devs go this route, if they include a scorpio patch or something.

I aslo want to bet that all first party published games will have dynamic engines.

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

How would a game of 1440p upscale to 4k?(2160p)

I almost want to imagine 3rd party devs go this route, if they include a scorpio patch or something.

I aslo want to bet that all first party published games will have dynamic engines.

The same way 720p scales up to 1080p. Not without it's problems but a much higher baseline quality. Personally if a game is not 4K, I would rather they just stick to 1080p with some really high quality anti-aliasing. 1080p scales perfectly on a 4K set.

 

[*Nappula]

Does "most powerful" mean something different in your part of the world?

Well, in my part of the world all cross platform games ran better on 360. Which isn't surprising, since the 360 has more powerful GPU (by wide margin) and three CPU cores against a sole similar core in PS3.

 

[Gamezone]

My guess would be if the games basically have the same models, textures, etc across both versions, they'd just go multi disc 50gb bluray. If its a case where Scorpio pushes a game over the 50gb threshold or has completely different assets across the board that exceed 50gb, then maybe they have an additional UHD install disc for scorpio. But then the game would still be played via the 50gb bluray disc across xb1 & scorpio. They are tied to using a 50gb bluray as a play disc unless they can firmware update the original XB1 to read UHDs. I think they aren't sweating it though as digital adoption continues to grow.

I'm not so sure, as they seem to be ignoring multiple discs now.

 

[SwolBro]

Is there any chance devs take this extra power and do 1080p at 122fps or above? i much rather that than 4k

 

[dragonelite]

It's going to be interesting to see just how far they can push graphics while running at true 4K. So far PC gamers are basically 'brute forcing' 4K, but we haven't seen any targeted development on fixed spec hardware yet like the Scorpio will provide. The good old console optimization counts for something.

I suspect there will be a fair bit of gas left in the tank over just XB1 games at 4K. More like Uncharted 4 at 4K/30fps is what I'm thinking.

I think Turn10 will put out a showcase FM7 at launch with true 4K/60fps and VR. I'm going to guess that Crackdown 3 will get the treatment too. I hope the Scorpio version is 60fps hnnnnnnnnng!

Still, most games will hopefully go the bells and whistles route. It would be nice to know the CPU of this thing as it has the potential to make a big difference in overall performance. I think they will announce / leak it after the Neo is locked in. If it's worth shouting about that is.

I really hope they make FM7 and Halo 6 showcase games for scorpio both running 4k and 60 fps

 

[Backfoggen]

Is there any chance devs take this extra power and do 1080p at 122fps or above? i much rather that than 4k

Not happening

 

[scently]

The same way 720p scales up to 1080p. Not without it's problems but a much higher baseline quality. Personally if a game is not 4K, I would rather they just stick to 1080p with some really high quality anti-aliasing. 1080p scales perfectly on a 4K set.

Or conversely, rendering at 4k and downscaling to 1080p gives you that perfect AA.

There will always be benefits to using Scorpio, even when connected to a 1080p set. For one thing, it will downsample to a 1080p image, meaning you get to see a 1080p picture in games even if the XB1 version is rendering at much lower res like 900p or 720p. Added to this is the natural improvement that comes with downscaling from a 4k framebuffer; IQ will be exceptional, little to no jaggies, better filtering, its going to have a lot more texture filtering units in there, etc. Ofcourse it is always possible that games will use the extra power to present a more graphically impressive looking game at 1080p native (just like the Neo). So all in all performance will definitely be better than X1 version. Games on Scorpio will look and perform better whether you play it on a 4k tv or on a 1080p set

 

[PanicFreak]

I really hope they make FM7 and Halo 6 showcase games for scorpio both running 4k and 60 fps

FM7 will probably be the showcase 4K game. I hope they make Halo 6 as a kick ass 1080P game.

Spoiler

That probably won't happen :-(

 

[timlot]

I sure hope Phil sticks to "encouraging" developer to shoot for 4K. 30fps or 60fps. Either one would be better than 1080p.

This talk of upgraded textures and effects or whatever is a farce. How are we supposed to dictate what a developer or graphic artist intended something to look? They choose different art styles, different AA and lighting techniques, different engines. Just because they choose 1080p doesn't' mean they all of a sudden they're going to make a wall texture they intended to look dull now are going to go all out make it a glossy global illuminated surface with 16x msaa.

The jump from standard definition 640x480 (307,200 pixels) to 1920x1080p (2,073,600)
1,766,400 pixels

The jump from 1080p to 4k (8,294,400 pixels) is...
6,220,800 pixels!

Here's a 1989 news report about HDTV. 26 years ago.
https://youtu.be/VX_2tqM042k

Don't be scared of the future folks. 1080p had it run its time to move on.

 

[Corine]

6 TF in a closed environment is a lot; it can do 4K, but maybe is better to have 1080p/60fps with so much more details, better effects, textures, lighting, physics, etc !

Don't do the usual mistake to compare it with an equivalent PC : the same hardware in a Console(closed environment) can do so much more than a PC.

It is old, but it is still valid :
""For the same given paper spec, a console will deliver twice the perf of a PC, and a PC will deliver twice the perf of a mobile part.
""

https://twitter.com/id_aa_carmack/status/436012673243693056

Can't believe people are still holding onto this quote. If it were true in any way my amd 280 wouldn't even be getting ps4 graphics or framerates which is definitely not the case. Runs every game at higher framerates and graphics.

 

[jond76]

I sure hope Phil sticks to "encouraging" developer to shoot for 4K. 30fps or 60fps. Either one would be better than 1080p.

This talk of upgraded textures and effects or whatever is a farce. How are we supposed to dictate what a developer or graphic artist intended something to look? They choose different art styles, different AA and lighting techniques, different engines. Just because they choose 1080p doesn't' mean they all of a sudden they're going to make a wall texture they intended to look dull now are going to go all out make it a glossy global illuminated surface with 16x msaa.

The jump from standard definition 640x480 (307,200 pixels) to 1920x1080p (2,073,600)
1,766,400 pixels

The jump from 1080p to 4k (8,294,400 pixels) is...
6,220,800 pixels!

Here's a 1989 news report about HDTV. 26 years ago.
https://youtu.be/VX_2tqM042k

Don't be scared of the future folks. 1080p had it run its time to move on.

Eh, it all depends on what devs think will sell. 1080p with photo realism and a crazy good AA solution might be what they want to spend that power on.

That said, I'm glad there is no 'mandate' to push 4k as a standard. Let the artists use the tools as they see fit.

 

[Art Vandilay]

Eh, it all depends on what devs think will sell. 1080p with photo realism and a crazy good AA solution might be what they want to spend that power on.

That said, I'm glad there is no 'mandate' to push 4k as a standard. Let the artists use the tools as they see fit.

This is my stance. I personally hope they stick with 1080p and settings equivalent to ultra-ish on the PC. Not enough people have a 4k yet for devs to focus on that in my opinion. Maybe that will change in 3-4 years as prices continue to drop and people replace their old sets, but it would seem like a waste to focus on 4k next year.

 

[e-gamer]

The truth is:

A new and powerful hardware will not be bad for anyone.

NEVER.

 

[timlot]

This is my stance. I personally hope they stick with 1080p and settings equivalent to ultra-ish on the PC. Not enough people have a 4k yet for devs to focus on that in my opinion. Maybe that will change in 3-4 years as prices continue to drop and people replace their old sets, but it would seem like a waste to focus on 4k next year.

If there is no content (movies or games) people will never buy 4K tvs. There is no new technology that needs to be developed 3-4 years out. AMD just announced a $199 GPU that will do 4K. The XB1 S with stream and play 4K BluRay as well as upconvert games to 4K for $299. Just checked Walmart for tvs. They're cheapest 1080p 43" tv in $219 http://www.walmart.com/ip/RCA-42-LED42C45RQ-Class-LED-1080p-60Hz-3.4-ultra-slim-HDTV/21097470. They're cheapest 4K 43" tv is $249 http://www.walmart.com/ip/Sceptre-U435CV-U-43-4K-Ultra-HD-2160p-60Hz-LED-HDTV-4K-x-2K/46867816. A difference of $30. The future is now.

 

[Metfanant]

If he's an Xbox fan it makes sense. Although it can be argued whether the PS3 really had any clear edge over the 360 it's a legitimate thing to say that a fan of Xbox can be happy that not since 2005 will they have had the clear cut most powerful console. What's wrong with him pointing that out?

I guess I wasn't really looking at it from any "fan" perspective...so it was weird to me. I guess if you had some aversion to Sony or the PS4 due to allegiance to Xbox then you have not been able to use the "most powerful console ever" in quite some time...

Does games running better on 360 90% of the time mean something in yours?

Well, in my part of the world all cross platform games ran better on 360. Which isn't surprising, since the 360 has more powerful GPU (by wide margin) and three CPU cores against a sole similar core in PS3.

And was the reasoning for that a more powerful console? Or excessively complicated hardware? Because we all know Sony's first party games on the PS3 stood above anything released on the 360...and games like GTA5 were better on the PS3 as well...

Don't be scared of the future folks. 1080p had it run its time to move on.

And yet TV broadcasts are still 1080i or 720p for the most part...and even 4k streaming services use much lower bitrates than 1080p Bluray for instance... there is still a LONG way to go...

 

[Proelite]

Since Scorpio is long time out, and the specs aren't finalized, here is some Scorpio wank that falls within historical precedents, (i.e. PS4's memory jump, Xb1's upclocks)

Consider the render bait and switch in the wank, so that's thrown out.

CPU is 4 core Zen "lite", 8 logical cores. More than 100% processing capability over the 8 jaguars cores.
GPU is 48 CU Navi part at 1ghz, 6.1 teraflops. 1 stack of 4GB of HBM2 ram, 256 gb/s bandwidth.
Main memory, 16GB of DDR4, ~100 GB/S bandwidth.

Conservative thermals allows the clocks to be upped by some amount like the XB1. Maybe to the base clock of 1080. 6.6 teraflops.

Combined with the CPU, PR can say "nearly 7 teraflops".

For those who says DDR4 bus and HBM2 bus is too pricey, DDR4 bus is smaller and cheaper than GDDR5 bus.

Not to mention that future AMD APUs will have HBM2, will have a DDR4 bus and also will have Zen CPU.

So it's not a stretch to have Scorpio be the baseline architecture for future AMD APUs.

Hardware BC enabled because of HBM2 acting like Esram.

 

[Samurai G0SU]

What if at next years e3 phil makes an announment like this;

"We heard you wanted more power, and we listened. I'm proud to announce that the Team Xbox engineers were able to get Project Scorpio up to 9Teraflops." *waits for applause*

 

[rokkerkory]

What if at next years e3 phil makes an announment like this;

"We heard you wanted more power, and we listened. I'm proud to announce that the Team Xbox engineers were able to get Project Scorpio up to 9Teraflops." *waits for applause*

6TF is prob not locked in stone. They may have room to nudge it a tad upward. Prob wanted to come out with 6TF to see response from Sony.

 

[Proelite]

What if at next years e3 phil makes an announment like this;

"We heard you wanted more power, and we listened. I'm proud to announce that the Team Xbox engineers were able to get Project Scorpio up to 9Teraflops." *waits for applause*

Thats a new generation. Bigger increase than any Microsoft had before. A machine like than can do 4k 60fps of Battlefield one.

No reason to go that high even if technically and financially possible.

Should save some headroom for post Scorpio launches.

 

[Samurai G0SU]

6TF is prob not locked in stone. They may have room to nudge it a tad upward. Prob wanted to come out with 6TF to see response from Sony.

Thats a new generation. Bigger increase than any Microsoft had before. A machine like than can do 4k 60fps of Battlefield one.

No reason to go that high even if technically and financially possible.

Should save some headroom for post Scorpio launches.

Hehe, yeah. Just throwing a bone out there

 

[Tonky]

I honestly consider 6TF a new generation. I think we will be surprised at what developers can accomplish with this.

 

[AP90]

6TF is prob not locked in stone. They may have room to nudge it a tad upward. Prob wanted to come out with 6TF to see response from Sony.

In Panos and Phil I believe.. =D

 

[Proelite]

I honestly consider 6TF a new generation. I think we will be surprised at what developers can accomplish with this.

6T would be a new generation if not for the massive resolution jump from 1080p to 4k. Thats 4 times where as previous resolution jumps where between 2.25 and 2.5.

You need 8 times the flops for a proper next generation jump on both resolution and per pixel quality. 12 teraflops.

 

[naitosan]

What if at next years e3 phil makes an announment like this;

"We heard you wanted more power, and we listened. I'm proud to announce that the Team Xbox engineers were able to get Project Scorpio up to 9Teraflops." *waits for applause*

I'd be quite surprised but in a good way. I'd be grinning from ear to ear, so hard.

Even with 6flops, I could see games doing 4k/60fps like Superhot, Tearaway, etc. If you want to see Rise of Tomb Raider, Quantum Break, The Order 1886 in 4k/60fps. It's highly unlikely will happen. It's actually a good thing for me because I have no plan to upgrade to 4k TV anytime soon. 1080p/30fps with super image quality (Toy Story quality?) is my sweet spot.

 

[Tonky]

6T would be a new generation if not for the massive resolution jump from 1080p to 4k. Thats 4 times where as previous resolution jumps where between 2.25 and 2.5.

You need 8 times the flops for a proper next generation jump on both resolution and per pixel quality. 12 teraflops.

Yeah but Phil already stated that they're not forcing developers to use 4K, they can use the power however they'd like. This machine will be a beast at 1080p/30fps. Expect Samaritan/Infiltrator level graphics.

 

[SlickShoesRUCrazy]

What if at next years e3 phil makes an announment like this;

"We heard you wanted more power, and we listened. I'm proud to announce that the Team Xbox engineers were able to get Project Scorpio up to 9Teraflops." *waits for applause*

I would start throwing money and my credit cards at the screen

 

[Quotient]

You and me both. It'll be nice to be playing on the most powerful console of all time.

You can already do that, it is called a PS4.

 

[Tonky]

You can already do that, it is called a PS4.

For about the next year or so.

 

[Proelite]

I would start throwing money and my credit cards at the screen

$699.

 

[thuway]

Yeah but Phil already stated that they're not forcing developers to use 4K, they can use the power however they'd like. This machine will be a beast at 1080p/30fps. Expect Samaritan/Infiltrator level graphics.

That title would run in 480p with massive compromises on shadows, AA, lighting, and virtually every effect on Xbox One - than and only than would have a no compromise designed from the ground up Scorpio title. Oh and the additional VRAM on Scorpio would so make it impossible to port every single animation, texture, geometric scene.

Don't expect this from the ground up experience for Scorpio to happen any time soon.