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XSX/PS5 Pro?

dotnotbot

Member
Can we all agree on one thing?

OPTICAL DISK DRIVES ARE ARCHAIC
T65anAQ.jpg


The data transfer rate from my understanding is: 92Mb/s-144 Mb/s

Meanwhile you have SD cards that can go up to 1 TB+ with read and write speeds (SD Express 8.0 specifications with PCIE 4.0) up to 4GB/Sec, if they are going to make SD Express 9.0 specifications, i am going to assume double that.

If we want cartridge like experience, then the storage medium HAS to change.

If you want to stick to digital distribution, then the amount storage has to increase also. PS5Pro/PS6 and XsXPro/XsX2 games will be 100GB+ if its gonna be the start of 8K, the current storage capacity despite fast SSD speeds is pathetic.

I don't care how cheap it is to manufacture optical disks, there has to be another solution.

It's cheap and 92Mb/s-144 Mb/s is still considered as good speed for internet connection. So downloading the same game from Sony servers isn't (much) faster than installing from the disk anyway.
 

rofif

Can’t Git Gud
Can we all agree on one thing?

OPTICAL DISK DRIVES ARE ARCHAIC
T65anAQ.jpg


The data transfer rate from my understanding is: 92Mb/s-144 Mb/s

Meanwhile you have SD cards that can go up to 1 TB+ with read and write speeds (SD Express 8.0 specifications with PCIE 4.0) up to 4GB/Sec, if they are going to make SD Express 9.0 specifications, i am going to assume double that.

If we want cartridge like experience, then the storage medium HAS to change.

If you want to stick to digital distribution, then the amount storage has to increase also. PS5Pro/PS6 and XsXPro/XsX2 games will be 100GB+ if its gonna be the start of 8K, the current storage capacity despite fast SSD speeds is pathetic.

I don't care how cheap it is to manufacture optical disks, there has to be another solution.
It might be archaic but it is THE ONLY way to "almost own" games. I can have my v1.00 game on a disc and nobody will take that away.
Unless there will be a way to FULLY backup digital purchases, then disc is the only way. But digital purchases require online check.
besides. PSN caps out at about 250mbit for me... and steam at almost 700mbit. psn sucks ass
 
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rofif

Can’t Git Gud
Most of the games these days won't work without some download of a patch or update.
I don't think that's true.. is it ? I know Halo requires a download but most ps5 games don't.
That said - there absolutely should be a way to backup patches.
 
Funny thing with Blu-Ray speeds, that they are rated in Megabits, not Megabytes, so that 144 Mbit/s is actually 18 MB/s which is way slower than even some of the cheapest, slowest microSD cards available.

Even if another gen of Blu-Ray doubles the rate, it's really a dead-end for physical media IMHO. Cartridge-style microSDs are going to be the way forward, especially when combined with decompression I/O hardware.
 

rofif

Can’t Git Gud
Funny thing with Blu-Ray speeds, that they are rated in Megabits, not Megabytes, so that 144 Mbit/s is actually 18 MB/s which is way slower than even some of the cheapest, slowest microSD cards available.

Even if another gen of Blu-Ray doubles the rate, it's really a dead-end for physical media IMHO. Cartridge-style microSDs are going to be the way forward, especially when combined with decompression I/O hardware.
Oh absolutely. I would be 100% happy to own physical "cartridges". For now bluray discs are fine. ps4 had about 27mb/s read speed is what google says
 
i'm waiting for slim/pro revisions.

1. they will be cheaper (for slim models)
2. more games will be out (looking at you PS5)
3. should hopefully be easier to get hold of one
4. i really hate the PS5 design. that thing needs put on a diet.

i'll take a Series X Pro and a PS5 Slim.

I am with you on that.
PS5 is just too big to be appealing to me. Also hard to get one currently.

Series X Pro and PS5 slim. 👍🏻 😎
 
Oh absolutely. I would be 100% happy to own physical "cartridges". For now bluray discs are fine. ps4 had about 27mb/s read speed is what google says

27 MB/s....that's not too bad for a drive in 2013 going into consoles tbh.

You'd need a 16x drive to match what a microSD-based cartridge could bring (on the lower end) as a storage medium next-gen though, and you still lack the benefits of data decompression. Even if a next-generation Blu-Ray doubles the top speeds and you get 144 MB/s, I doubt either next-gen console will want to throw in a ROM drive at that spec due to costs, plus you still lose out on capacity and effective bandwidth (when decompression I/O is taken into account) compared to a microSD-style cartridge with even half of that raw bandwidth.
 

rofif

Can’t Git Gud
27 MB/s....that's not too bad for a drive in 2013 going into consoles tbh.

You'd need a 16x drive to match what a microSD-based cartridge could bring (on the lower end) as a storage medium next-gen though, and you still lack the benefits of data decompression. Even if a next-generation Blu-Ray doubles the top speeds and you get 144 MB/s, I doubt either next-gen console will want to throw in a ROM drive at that spec due to costs, plus you still lose out on capacity and effective bandwidth (when decompression I/O is taken into account) compared to a microSD-style cartridge with even half of that raw bandwidth.
the problem with sd cards is price. And You still need to copy the data to internal storage. But overall I think sd cards are more "solid" storage device even speed aside.
But bluray discs are not getting a lot of use now too. Only used once when installing a game. So hardly any scratches or heat
 
the problem with sd cards is price. And You still need to copy the data to internal storage. But overall I think sd cards are more "solid" storage device even speed aside.
But bluray discs are not getting a lot of use now too. Only used once when installing a game. So hardly any scratches or heat
Pricing-wise it does kind of depend on the type of microSD you're looking for. There are some 128 GB, 100 GB/s cards from manufacturers like Kingson selling new for $10 - $12, and those are being sold for profit, at volumes less than you'd get for millions for dozens of AAA and AA retail games per year (assuming Sony and Microsoft handle the manufacturing; not sure if Nintendo does this with their Switch carts).

For most retail releases, especially considering a lot of 3P pubs are pushing $70 now, accounting for the costs of microSD as a delivery medium will be almost trivial. By 10th-gen that same type of microSD I mention above will probably retail new for $4.99, and that's at profit and comparatively low volumes. Costs in large volumes for a AAA game release will probably push that near $1 if not lower, then you have a couple extra dollars for packaging material, casing and the such. Probably something like $2 - $2.50 in all.

It's true that you wouldn't be playing games off the cards, but the point is to have them serve as a form of offline archival storage, and act as a point of delivery in markets where internet speeds are too slow, and data caps too harsh. Plus, it still helps facilitate a used game market, and dramatically beefs up what would effectively be the "weakest" link in the system pipeline when it comes to the full path of data transfer (microSD < SSD < RAM < CPU/GPU caches), since it'd effectively offer 3x - 4x if not more bandwidth over the best Blu-Ray drive spec available today (and likely to be available for the next several years).
 

rofif

Can’t Git Gud
Pricing-wise it does kind of depend on the type of microSD you're looking for. There are some 128 GB, 100 GB/s cards from manufacturers like Kingson selling new for $10 - $12, and those are being sold for profit, at volumes less than you'd get for millions for dozens of AAA and AA retail games per year (assuming Sony and Microsoft handle the manufacturing; not sure if Nintendo does this with their Switch carts).

For most retail releases, especially considering a lot of 3P pubs are pushing $70 now, accounting for the costs of microSD as a delivery medium will be almost trivial. By 10th-gen that same type of microSD I mention above will probably retail new for $4.99, and that's at profit and comparatively low volumes. Costs in large volumes for a AAA game release will probably push that near $1 if not lower, then you have a couple extra dollars for packaging material, casing and the such. Probably something like $2 - $2.50 in all.

It's true that you wouldn't be playing games off the cards, but the point is to have them serve as a form of offline archival storage, and act as a point of delivery in markets where internet speeds are too slow, and data caps too harsh. Plus, it still helps facilitate a used game market, and dramatically beefs up what would effectively be the "weakest" link in the system pipeline when it comes to the full path of data transfer (microSD < SSD < RAM < CPU/GPU caches), since it'd effectively offer 3x - 4x if not more bandwidth over the best Blu-Ray drive spec available today (and likely to be available for the next several years).
Love this idea but I doubt next consoles will have any physical media support. Sony selling digital ps5 is a test probably
 

ZywyPL

Banned
Love this idea but I doubt next consoles will have any physical media support. Sony selling digital ps5 is a test probably

That's what pretty much every publisher would want, an all-digital market with no distribution costs and store fees, more money for the same games, what's not to like, but I think even when PS6 launches it'll be still too early for that. I think we need the digital sales to reach something like 85-90% of the overall sales first for Sony and MS to finally pull out the plug for physical distribution, but with 60-70% we're seeing nowadays there's still a massive audience to fight for (about 50M people).
 
Yeah it's not a surprise at all that they are working on upgrades, the PCs are getting better so quick that consoles are already kind of outdated when they are released, the only exemption was perhaps the SSD in the PS5.

But yeah I am sticking to consoles and my PC is only for business purposes. Mainly due to the ease of use and not the need to play around with too many settings. Also I have a great 4k Sony TV and that tv is doing a great job with it's up-scaling, so a 1080p picture looks also fantastic and I don't feel the need to have a full 4k picture.

Also although my PC is 8 years old I am using it sometimes to play games, which were released only on XBOX and I am surprised how good of these games still run on this old system. I currently enjoy Ori and the blind forest and I heard that the second part has higher minimum requirements than my system, but I already bought and started the second game to check if its unplayabale and to my surprise it looks and play really great mostly at 60fps. I guess the developer brought out some patches since it's original release to improve performance, but they should lower the mininum spec description, since some people may miss out on it, if they have only a weaker old PC.
 
Love this idea but I doubt next consoles will have any physical media support. Sony selling digital ps5 is a test probably
If it's a test it's the most limited-run test ever; they are barely producing any PS5 Digital units. I think with global markets into account and the fact they can't count on everyone having fast, non data-capped internet by the latter half of the decade, the 10th-gen systems will need some physical media out of necessity.

The only question is if it's still Blu-Ray disc or not and IMO it won't be that, but a microSD-based cartridge type of solution. Basically what Nintendo does now for Switch, but a lot better.
 

Kenpachii

Member
PS6 will have a blu-ray drive for sure. Maybe MS will move away from it and nintendo will stay around cartridges.

Anyway

2023 and early 2024 sounds about right, when games are coming out for next gen only and performance on the current consoles will tank those console refreshes will instantly have a market.
GPU tech is also far enough at that point to make apu's a lot more powerful.
 
PS6 will have a blu-ray drive for sure. Maybe MS will move away from it and nintendo will stay around cartridges.

But why? Legitimate question. Optical media is a dead-end, even for purposes of storage. Storage-wise it might make sense as a cold storage solution going forward, but as a feature in the console memory hierarchy? All of its use-cases can be better served 10th-gen by cheap, readily available microSD. We aren't even talking peak microSD cards, but even an 80 MB/s card effectively performs much faster than that (and therefore any Blu-Ray spec within the next decade) once you factor in decompression I/O.

A microSD card slot is also much cheaper than a Blu-Ray drive (especially a more performant one), and has less moving parts. Uses less power, generates less heat therefore less needed for cooling. It'll be superior to optical media as a point of physical media delivery and non-SSD storage/preservation in every single way, while (IMO) ending up as cheap in large bulk volumes as UHD Blu-Ray discs are today, or very close to those.

There's no sense for Sony to stick with Blu-Ray next gen, same goes for Microsoft. And we know Nintendo'll never bother with it; I'm willing to bet this is the last generation where optical drives and disc are natively built-in or supported by a games console.
 

Kenpachii

Member
But why? Legitimate question. Optical media is a dead-end, even for purposes of storage. Storage-wise it might make sense as a cold storage solution going forward, but as a feature in the console memory hierarchy? All of its use-cases can be better served 10th-gen by cheap, readily available microSD. We aren't even talking peak microSD cards, but even an 80 MB/s card effectively performs much faster than that (and therefore any Blu-Ray spec within the next decade) once you factor in decompression I/O.

A microSD card slot is also much cheaper than a Blu-Ray drive (especially a more performant one), and has less moving parts. Uses less power, generates less heat therefore less needed for cooling. It'll be superior to optical media as a point of physical media delivery and non-SSD storage/preservation in every single way, while (IMO) ending up as cheap in large bulk volumes as UHD Blu-Ray discs are today, or very close to those.

There's no sense for Sony to stick with Blu-Ray next gen, same goes for Microsoft. And we know Nintendo'll never bother with it; I'm willing to bet this is the last generation where optical drives and disc are natively built-in or supported by a games console.

That's why i think microsoft will move off it for there next console. However i don't see sony moving off it because its tech from themselves they want to push forwards and keep relevant for some reason even while blu-ray was already dead on arrival when it was announced. It's very much sony that wants to keep the dream alive.

I also doubt that microsd is cheaper for devs and for sony then a simple disc.
 

K' Dash

Member
we've had a couple true next gen games and they're already working on a Pro version lol, these consoles have barely been tested...
 
That's why i think microsoft will move off it for there next console. However i don't see sony moving off it because its tech from themselves they want to push forwards and keep relevant for some reason even while blu-ray was already dead on arrival when it was announced. It's very much sony that wants to keep the dream alive.

I also doubt that microsd is cheaper for devs and for sony then a simple disc.

But what's the point of sticking with a dead-end that will hurt more than help? Just because Sony have the capacity to make and supply Blu-Ray drives themselves, but if Microsoft moves onward to a microSD-based cartridge style physical delivery (I somewhat feel the CF Express-based storage expansions for Series are an early test of such an idea) and Nintendo finally builds a next-gen system with decompression I/O...

By the time of 10th gen, with prices for microSD being a lot cheaper (especially for the type Microsoft would use in this hypothetical scenario), they make Sony sticking with Blu-Ray look absolutely archaic by comparison. Sony'd be spending more money on BOM per system, for worst performance. And it's not like the whole CD/cartridge situation of the '90s between PS1 and N64; by time of 10th-gen Blu-Ray would offer zero advantages over a cheap microSD-based cartridge medium outside of maybe being a few cents cheaper.

For those reasons alone there's no reason for them to stick with Blu-Ray, at least built into the system. They can maybe support externally-connected Blu-Ray ROM drives if needed, but at least that removes the costs of the Blu-Ray drive in the BOM on their end. Besides it's not like Sony haven't abandoned physical media formats they've invested tons in before: Betamax, MiniDisc etc. When supporting Blu-Ray just doesn't make sense anymore economically or mass-market tech-wise, they'll drop including it by default in at least future PlayStation consoles.
 

Kenpachii

Member
But what's the point of sticking with a dead-end that will hurt more than help? Just because Sony have the capacity to make and supply Blu-Ray drives themselves, but if Microsoft moves onward to a microSD-based cartridge style physical delivery (I somewhat feel the CF Express-based storage expansions for Series are an early test of such an idea) and Nintendo finally builds a next-gen system with decompression I/O...

By the time of 10th gen, with prices for microSD being a lot cheaper (especially for the type Microsoft would use in this hypothetical scenario), they make Sony sticking with Blu-Ray look absolutely archaic by comparison. Sony'd be spending more money on BOM per system, for worst performance. And it's not like the whole CD/cartridge situation of the '90s between PS1 and N64; by time of 10th-gen Blu-Ray would offer zero advantages over a cheap microSD-based cartridge medium outside of maybe being a few cents cheaper.

For those reasons alone there's no reason for them to stick with Blu-Ray, at least built into the system. They can maybe support externally-connected Blu-Ray ROM drives if needed, but at least that removes the costs of the Blu-Ray drive in the BOM on their end. Besides it's not like Sony haven't abandoned physical media formats they've invested tons in before: Betamax, MiniDisc etc. When supporting Blu-Ray just doesn't make sense anymore economically or mass-market tech-wise, they'll drop including it by default in at least future PlayStation consoles.

Pretty sure sony and microsoft already deploy with current blu-ray drives a smart install solution, where the game gets installed along the way of playing it. So honestly the speed is probably not that important as the game will be completely ran of the SSD anyway. both microsd and blu-ray only carry installers anyway.

The question really is, do people still watch blu-ray/dvd on those boxes, we don't know sony does, and does 20 bucks or something for a blu-ray player really become a issue? will devs care for higher costs microsd cards solutions over cheaper blu-ray discs or will sony have to eat the cost as result or will blu-ray discs get more expensive then microsd cards in the future, and will a disc based bc solution be something to target for.

Also how the world look like in 5 years from now, will games balloon to 300-400gb solutions or will they stay small rather around the 100gb or will we see huge reductions in the future on assets that basically get generated through ai code that builds them on the spot which takes no space at all.

It all depends on how the market is going to move forwards and what demands people will have.

I am curious how much of a progression we will be seeing in the AI space, this could influence gaming far more drastically in the upcoming years.

So we will see tho.
 
Pretty sure sony and microsoft already deploy with current blu-ray drives a smart install solution, where the game gets installed along the way of playing it. So honestly the speed is probably not that important as the game will be completely ran of the SSD anyway. both microsd and blu-ray only carry installers anyway.

Yes I'm aware current systems already do this with Blu-Ray discs. However, in terms of data delivery in the memory hierarchy the disc is still the slowest point; even half-gigabit internet will be faster for certain users in just downloading and transferring/installing data. The overall QoL experience is still limited somewhat by the slowest point in the memory hierarchy chain, which would be the Blu-Ray disc.

The question really is, do people still watch blu-ray/dvd on those boxes, we don't know sony does, and does 20 bucks or something for a blu-ray player really become a issue? will devs care for higher costs microsd cards solutions over cheaper blu-ray discs or will sony have to eat the cost as result or will blu-ray discs get more expensive then microsd cards in the future, and will a disc based bc solution be something to target for.

Right now a decent 80 MB/s, 128 GB microSD costs more in pure manufacturing costs than a UHD Blu-Ray disc, this is true. But we're talking by 10th-gen time here, and IMO 10th-gen won't come until sometime in 2028. By then, manufacturing costs on that type of microSD will have come down significantly, and they likely will not cost much more than a UHD Blu-Ray ROM disc does currently.

So Sony, Microsoft etc. won't have to 'eat the costs' because the costs will be a lot lower especially if they assume control over card manufacture process and get millions upon millions of them in bulk to allocate towards 1P and 3P retail releases. And the card reader would be both a lot cheaper and use less power, than a Blu-Ray drive ever could.

Ubiquity of media formats like microSD and the continued diminishing presence of Blu-Ray in customer market as people move towards streaming and digital delivery systems, will favor increasing price reductions for flash memories including microSD ones, and stagnate or even increase production costs for Blu-Ray discs and drives as their totality in mainstream consumer markets diminishes.

Also how the world look like in 5 years from now, will games balloon to 300-400gb solutions or will they stay small rather around the 100gb or will we see huge reductions in the future on assets that basically get generated through ai code that builds them on the spot which takes no space at all.

That's an interesting question; best to say for now that it'll probably be a mixture of all three. Even so, it doesn't leave a favorable position for Blu-Ray or other optical media to be included as a default in next-generation gaming consoles; microSD will benefit from reduction in flash memory prices and increased market saturation of flash memory technologies. Blu-Ray won't have those benefits, and any future optical media (glass-based optical media for example), if they ever go mainstream, won't be able to provide the data bandwidth advantages of flash memories.

Where, if we're talking about game file sizes potentially not increasing THAT much, negates the only other potential benefit of future optical media: capacity of storage. Which technically can be negated somewhat through microSD via data decompression I/O. Optical media or technologies that utilize optical like platter-based HDDs will have purpose as massive archival cold storage solutions, but you won't need that for a games console, so why take on those costs?

It all depends on how the market is going to move forwards and what demands people will have.

I am curious how much of a progression we will be seeing in the AI space, this could influence gaming far more drastically in the upcoming years.

So we will see tho.

Yeah AI will have a big impact on games. However, if it's a question about whether trends will influence 10th-gen consoles to go with Blu-Ray or another optical media included by default, I don't think there's a single trend benefiting that outcome as happening. Everything is moving towards integrating the memory hierarchies closer to each other WRT bandwidth and latency. That means, among other things, relegating any data delivery systems relying on seek times, further into cold storage territory.

With flash NAND memory costs becoming cheaper, and card interfaces for microSD already very cheap (especially compared to a decent Blu-Ray drive), I can't see any future where using Blu-Ray or other optical media built into a 10th-gen console by default, makes any sense compared to replacing that link in the data pipeline with microSD. You'll get roughly the same costs in terms of the media format itself, cheaper costs in terms of the drive/device to read/write the data, higher peak bandwidth transfers with decompression I/O, no moving parts, less power requirements, less heat output, and a smaller footprint on the motherboard.

It's a decisive win-win all around to make that change, and I think that's what Sony and Microsoft are going to do, 100%.
 

Dream-Knife

Banned
A refresh is going to happen, you can bank on it. I think it will happen later than 2023, though.

There's ALWAYS a need. We already have games that have to compromise either resolution or framerate. That's only going to get worse moving forward. In 3-4 years these consoles will be very underpowered, too.
Everything becomes underpowered with time, as tech continuously advances.

The problem is if they adopt the PC model and come out with new hardware every 2 years or so while still being a closed console, they will likely loose their entire hardcore fanbases to PC.
Well I think MS and Sony did indirectly or directly say they are already working on next gen consoles. They may not be called "Pro" they might as well call them PS6 and XsX2 or something. Im just speculating 🤷‍♂️


I love his flowery language in his British accent:

"I heard from my sources that Zen 4 is going to be BONKERS" "RDNA 3 is going to be ridiculous" "My sources said this, and my sources that and he has been right"

His technical analysis on explaining things is just awful. I was hoping to get clarification on what geometry engine is and Variable Rate Shading so i can differentiate between the 2, and i still couldn't understand. I dont take him too seriously, but i posted his video because somehow my instincts were telling me that RDNA 3 was going to be faster than RDNA 2 in terms of frequency, because if Sony managed to reach 2.2Ghz, then i inferred that RDNA 3 would most likely reach close to 3 Ghz and I guess it was just confirmation bias with his speculation video lol

2020,2021 were transition years, but 2022 will be the year of amazing product line ups for:

8K UHDTV's with HMDI 2.1
Android Smartphones and Tablets
Apple Smartphones and Tablets
NVIDIA, AMD, Intel GPUS
AMD, Intel CPUs

6700xt and 6600xt can boost to 2800mhz.
 
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