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[Dynomutt]

Great post OP. All-Star Superman was a great series. It's awesome how a panel or just a few panels can pull you in. JLA #89 in the "Trial by Fire" arc has one of my favorite panels ever. Really cemented The Flash as one of my favorites.

Spoiler

Side Lesson: If you can help it try not to fix a temporary problem with a permanent solution. I was in a bad place and off loaded my albeit small but cherished collection for cash. Never quite bounced back. One day.

 

[Already Torn]

Broken people are far more relatable than Superman will ever be.

Not really. Batman and the Punisher are both completely unrelatable unless you have some serious problems to work out.

 

[LosDaddie]

All star superman is so great

All-Star Superman is my favorite superhero book

I thought it was a fun read, but a step below Kingdom Come and Red Son.

 

[Dash_Riprock]

Broken people are far more relatable than Superman will ever be.

Only for angsty teens, hence why optimistic heroes like Superman and Spider-Man are more popular with adults and kids.

I thought it was a fun read, but a step below Kingdom Come and Red Son.

Red Son is on a whole other level on terms of themes and ideas. Thought IMO All Star is more entertaining.

 

[tim1138]

I love All-Star Supes so much, I feel like there's a dozen or so pages you can pull out of it and just gawk at, including the page in the OP, and the very first page of the series. One of my favorites is the spread of Clark and Lois walking across the street and it looks like Clark is a clumsy oaf, bumping into people and such, and then you see he secretly saved everyone he interacted with.

 

[Geist-]

Here have a link to Garth Ennis' awesome Superman.

http://4thletter.net/2009/11/garth-ennis-may-hate-superheroes/

I love everything he writes.

Replace "our" with "My" and you have his reasoning down to a Tee. Luthor, if you remember, came from NOTHING. He worked hard for his success and he rose to the top as the most powerful man in Metropolis and one of the richest men in the world period, and Superman shows up, and no matter what Luthor does, his accomplishments will be for nothing in comparison to Superman.

I thought Lex was a terrible villain until this. Such a fantastic depiction.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Not really. Batman and the Punisher are both completely unrelatable unless you have some serious problems to work out.

I said they were more relatable than an invulnerable super being.

Only for angsty teens, hence why optimistic heroes like Superman and Spider-Man are more popular with adults and kids.

Outside of the ridiculous Batgod interpretations I like Batman more because of what he is: A man going up against impossible odds.

That's why I prefer him over Superman in the Batman vs Superman movie. To me Superman represents immense power determining what is right and wrong, but Batman rejects that and is willing to try the impossible (which is enough in of itself even if he fails) by humbling that authority figure.

I guess if you like to worship powerful figures then Superman is your go to idol. Personally, I don't and he isn't.

 

[Blues1990]

'Superman: Peace On Earth', written by Paul Dini & illustrated by Alex Ross, hits similar narrative beats, but it also dealt with the age old question of "If an all powerful being uses his abilities to fix the world, rather than dealing with fighting the cowardly & corrupted, would it be a better place?" After Superman proposes to the United Nations to help to end world hunger, through the gesture of spending a day delivering as much food as he can to countries that need it anywhere on the planet, he realizes (the hard way) that once people rely on him to fix their daily problems, they won't even be bothered to fix it for themselves. Heck, Superman's gesture of goodwill is met with hostility from some governments, and they will go and use his generosity as a weapon against their own people.

This book was one of four over-sized series of OGN’s that focused on each of the DC Icons (which also includes Batman, Wonder Woman, & Captain Marvel), and all four are worth checking out.

 

[Already Torn]

I thought it was a fun read, but a step below Kingdom Come and Red Son.

Oh man. Red Son is fine but Kingdom Come is the most I've ever regretted spending money on a comic book. It looks pretty I guess.

I said they were more relatable than an invulnerable super being.

Do you only relate to people have have the same biochemistry as you? lol Superman is like a normal guy, Batman and Punisher are these too crazies. I can relate way more to Superman, even if he can fly and I can't.

 

[Kinyou]

Remember that time J. Michael Straczynski plagiarized that part and had Superman say he would let someone kill themself?

That was great.

Is that supposed to be bad? I mean he's negotiating. Who knows what he would actually do if it had come to that.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Oh man. Red Son is fine but Kingdom Come is the most I've ever regretted spending money on a comic book. It looks pretty I guess.


Do you only relate to people have have the same biochemistry as you? lol Superman is like a normal guy, Batman and Punisher are these too crazies. I can relate way more to Superman, even if he can fly and I can't.

He's an invulnerable superbeing. Even in the All star version he's explained as being that relaxed because he's so used to being immune to the same physical frailties that plague mortal man.

I prefer characters who despite being broken (mentally and physically) keep on getting up and moving forward despite knowing that it could kill them. That to me is more admirable.

So yes, I respect Batman more (Punisher I'm not addressing as that's a completely different universe, and also a character I don't enjoy).

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Do you only relate to people have have the same biochemistry as you? lol Superman is like a normal guy, Batman and Punisher are these too crazies. I can relate way more to Superman, even if he can fly and I can't.

To expand on this: Batman, whilst he has the tragedy of losing his parents at a young age, and struggles (depending on writer) with his inner demon, is also a billionaire playboy who got training to be basically a ninja and master detective, and depending on continuity, is also a genius in just about everything.

Superman, as Clark Kent, may have his parents still alive in his bakstory, but he's someone who grew up being different in ways he didn't immediately understand, had to get an education and get a job - which also required uprooting himself from his family and friends - and then has to work at holding that job whilst, depending on continuity, actually working on developing a relationship with the target of his affections. In the versions where his parents are still alive, he keeps in touch, goes to them when he's uncertain about himself, and is honest with them in ways he wouldn't be with others.

I relate far more to the latter than I could to the former, even if one has a bunch of alien superpowers.

 

[Already Torn]

He's an invulnerable superbeing. Even in the All star version he's explained as being that relaxed because he's so used to being immune to the same physical frailties that plague mortal man.

So yes, I respect Batman more (Punisher I'm not addressing as that's a completely different universe, and also a character I don't enjoy).

I mean ignoring that respecting and relating to someone aren't the same thing at all, it's still completely baffling to me that you can only relate to people if they're physically injured by the same things as you. Clark has a normal family, grew up in a normal small town. He has a job with coworkers and a pet dog. He tries to do the right thing every day. Like all that stuff alone is stuff I can relate to, as opposed to literally anything about Batman. I'm not a billionaire that developed a personality disorder because of some trauma I experienced as a little kid, to the point where I've reached superhuman levels of paranoia and preparation with the help of my superhuman inheritance.

Like if you find out someone you feel close to isn't allergic to cats like you are, do you suddenly find them less relatable?

To expand on this: Batman, whilst he has the tragedy of losing his parents at a young age, and struggles (depending on writer) with his inner demon, is also a billionaire playboy who got training to be basically a ninja and master detective, and depending on continuity, is also a genius in just about everything.

Superman, as Clark Kent, may have his parents still alive in his bakstory, but he's someone who grew up being different in ways he didn't immediately understand, had to get an education and get a job - which also required uprooting himself from his family and friends - and then has to work at holding that job whilst, depending on continuity, actually working on developing a relationship with the target of his affections. In the versions where his parents are still alive, he keeps in touch, goes to them when he's uncertain about himself, and is honest with them in ways he wouldn't be with others.

I relate far more to the latter than I could to the former, even if one has a bunch of alien superpowers.

These are all excellent points as well. Somehow Batman ends up being written more perfect than Superman more often than not, but people brush that off because "he's human" which based on the way he's written... he really isn't at all.

 

[jph139]

I guess if you like to worship powerful figures then Superman is your go to idol. Personally, I don't and he isn't.

Honestly I agree. I think the more comfortable you are with a benevolent "Big Brother" figure, the more likely you are to enjoy Superman. Be that God or big government or, hell, determinism as a concept.

Like, I'm a socialist, so I'm pretty okay with a force with tons of power that helps and defends the weak and the poor.

 

[G-Fex]

To expand on this: Batman, whilst he has the tragedy of losing his parents at a young age, and struggles (depending on writer) with his inner demon, is also a billionaire playboy who got training to be basically a ninja and master detective, and depending on continuity, is also a genius in just about everything.

Superman, as Clark Kent, may have his parents still alive in his bakstory, but he's someone who grew up being different in ways he didn't immediately understand, had to get an education and get a job - which also required uprooting himself from his family and friends - and then has to work at holding that job whilst, depending on continuity, actually working on developing a relationship with the target of his affections. In the versions where his parents are still alive, he keeps in touch, goes to them when he's uncertain about himself, and is honest with them in ways he wouldn't be with others.

I relate far more to the latter than I could to the former, even if one has a bunch of alien superpowers.

Well said!

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

To expand on this: Batman, whilst he has the tragedy of losing his parents at a young age, and struggles (depending on writer) with his inner demon, is also a billionaire playboy who got training to be basically a ninja and master detective, and depending on continuity, is also a genius in just about everything.

Superman, as Clark Kent, may have his parents still alive in his bakstory, but he's someone who grew up being different in ways he didn't immediately understand, had to get an education and get a job - which also required uprooting himself from his family and friends - and then has to work at holding that job whilst, depending on continuity, actually working on developing a relationship with the target of his affections. In the versions where his parents are still alive, he keeps in touch, goes to them when he's uncertain about himself, and is honest with them in ways he wouldn't be with others.

I relate far more to the latter than I could to the former, even if one has a bunch of alien superpowers.

The billionaire playboy is as much as a mask as Clark Kent is to Superman. If you want to break down why Clark is so awesome then don't just simplify Bruce to make your point.

Also, you can't just say Bruce Wayne is a genius billionaire and has mastered martial arts therefore he's not relatable, then try to justify why All Star Superman (who is a genius supergod who was born with his powers) is more relatable.

But aside from the money and powers aspect I find Bruce's use of self-control and dedication in the face of emotional trauma to absolutely be more relatable and admirable.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

The billionaire playboy is as much as a mask as Clark Kent is to Superman. If you want to break down why Clark is so awesome then don't just simplify Bruce to make your point.

Also, you can't just say Bruce Wayne is a genius billionaire and has mastered martial arts therefore he's not relatable, then try to justify why All Star Superman (who is a genius supergod who was born with his powers) is more relatable.

But aside from the money and powers aspect I find Bruce's use of self-control and dedication in the face of emotional trauma to absolutely be more relatable and admirable.

Well, I don't actually view those personas as being 'masks' in the same way that so many writers and fans do, so that may feed into that.

Otherwise, you actually touch upon my point. Both of them have ludicrously fantastical elements that I cannot directly relate to, and other aspects that I do. And personally, I feel that more of it aligns with Superman.

 

[Rockandrollclown]

Replace "our" with "My" and you have his reasoning down to a Tee. Luthor, if you remember, came from NOTHING. He worked hard for his success and he rose to the top as the most powerful man in Metropolis and one of the richest men in the world period, and Superman shows up, and no matter what Luthor does, his accomplishments will be for nothing in comparison to Superman.

This is why I love Lex Luthor and it saddens me that no one seems interested in bringing this portrayal of him into the movies. Lex is one of the greatest villains of all time, and the movies just have never shown it.

 

[Already Torn]

The billionaire playboy is as much as a mask as Clark Kent is to Superman. If you want to break down why Clark is so awesome then don't just simplify Bruce to make your point.

Also, you can't just say Bruce Wayne is a genius billionaire and has mastered martial arts therefore he's not relatable, then try to justify why All Star Superman (who is a genius supergod who was born with his powers) is more relatable.

But aside from the money and powers aspect I find Bruce's use of self-control and dedication in the face of emotional trauma to absolutely be more relatable and admirable.

I don't think you're gonna get it. Clark Kent isn't a mask, he's a person. Billionaire Bruce Wayne is the mask. And Clark has emotional trauma as well, he just grew as a person as he grew up. Bruce Wayne can't possibly even remember what his parents look like any more!

 

[Kyosaiga]

And plus what I also don't get about complaints about Superman being good...

have you tried being good lately? I don't mean just "good" I mean REALLY good? Forgiving? Empathetic no matter what?

That's REALLY difficult and Superman does it day in and day out without complaint, because that's just the type of person he is, and the type of man Pa Kent expected him to be.

 

[Zero-ELEC]

The billionaire playboy is as much as a mask as Clark Kent is to Superman. If you want to break down why Clark is so awesome then don't just simplify Bruce to make your point.

Also, you can't just say Bruce Wayne is a genius billionaire and has mastered martial arts therefore he's not relatable, then try to justify why All Star Superman (who is a genius supergod who was born with his powers) is more relatable.

But aside from the money and powers aspect I find Bruce's use of self-control and dedication in the face of emotional trauma to absolutely be more relatable and admirable.

Well, there's your problem, Clark Kent isn't the mask.

 

[Dash_Riprock]

Well, there's your problem, Clark Kent isn't the mask.

This. I hate Tarantino for perpetuating that bullshit.

 

[Already Torn]

And plus what I also don't get about complaints about Superman being good...

have you tried being good lately? I don't mean just "good" I mean REALLY good? Forgiving? Empathetic no matter what?

That's REALLY difficult and Superman does it day in and day out without complaint, because that's just the type of person he is, and the type of man Pa Kent expected him to be.

Psh, but he's an alien though. No thanks. I like to earn my way in the world.

 

[Weiss]

Is that supposed to be bad? I mean he's negotiating. Who knows what he would actually do if it had come to that.

Because he was going to let a suicidal woman jump to her death if he didn't pep talk her out of it.

The sequence at the end, which is part of a greater story where JMS wrote the worst Superman stories in at least a decade, has him all but state he would have let her jump.

 

[Slayven]

Well, there's your problem, Clark Kent isn't the mask.

This. I hate Tarantino for perpetuating that bullshit.

Such bullshit. Let's you know who reads superman

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

I actually had a similar effect, since I watched it for the first time this year as well.

Certainly, of the live action adaptations, its quickly become one of my favourite, just because of how... relaxed he is, though I'm still early in. But also being open with his parents about how he feels, that he's well read and well travelled, just... a nice guy who appreciates the world.

Exactly.

So glad im seeing it for the first time as an adult, my kidself really wouldn't appreciate small stuff like Clark flying home for dinner once a week.
Its definitely making me more of a Superman fan.

 

[Already Torn]

Such bullshit. Let's you know who reads superman

Seriously haha. I guess Tarantino only watches the movies? Dude's Clark first.

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

Such bullshit. Let's you know who reads superman

Not really. Clark was way more the mask pre-crisis which is when Tarantino would have been reading Superman. The Man of Steel reboot was what made an actual effort to establish Clark Kent as a character.

I prefer the version where Clark is the character, but Tarantino is right in regards to a specific version of the character.

 

[Rooster12]

Replace "our" with "My" and you have his reasoning down to a Tee. Luthor, if you remember, came from NOTHING. He worked hard for his success and he rose to the top as the most powerful man in Metropolis and one of the richest men in the world period, and Superman shows up, and no matter what Luthor does, his accomplishments will be for nothing in comparison to Superman.

You mean cheated and murdered lol

 

[Dash_Riprock]

Not really. Clark was way more the mask pre-crisis which is when Tarantino would have been reading Superman. The Man of Steel reboot was what made an actual effort to establish Clark Kent as a character.

I prefer the version where Clark is the character, but Tarantino is right in regards to a specific version of the character.

The point is it hasn't been a relevant part of the character for decades, but Tarantino drops it in Kill Bill and suddenly every fanboy takes it as gospel.

I'm thinking Goyer had that stupid speech in mind when he wrote MoS. It would explain a lot.

No offense, but when you say it's the GOAT panel, I expected more, especially in the art and dialog department.

Then you missed the point entirely.

 

[dave is ok]

Supermansplaining

 

[Cuburt]

No offense, but when you say it's the GOAT panel, I expected more, especially in the art and writing department. I expected it to stand a little better on it's own, you know, as a single panel?

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Not really. Clark was way more the mask pre-crisis which is when Tarantino would have been reading Superman. The Man of Steel reboot was what made an actual effort to establish Clark Kent as a character.

I prefer the version where Clark is the character, but Tarantino is right in regards to a specific version of the character.

Yeah, that is a consideration one has to keep in mind, and that's why I try to remember to say things like 'versions' where necessary and as I can remember.

I mean, it works the inverse way with Batman, and you can see it even as late as Batman the Animated Series, at least in the first few seasons. The way he talks as Batman, and the way he reacts as Bruce Wayne, suggest a core persona that flows between the two, rather than one identity being created solely to facilitate the other The whole 'Batman is his real self, Bruce died at age 8' notion really came to the fore in the comics around that time, was further popularised by stuff like Batman Beyond, and has since become the staple.

Apologies if getting off track a little.

 

[What did he mean by this?]

Appreciating an awesome comic is great, but trying to say that it is the be-all and end-all of a character is obnoxious. The entire reason Superman or Batman or any other character has endured for nearly a century is their mutability over multiple generations.

Recognizing the sociocultural space that these characters inhabit of course does reveal certain key qualities expected to be adhered to, but attempting to rewrite history into showing that current norms are the only to have ever existed is irresponsible.

Morrison's super-epic Olympian tales about a dying god alien portray an obvious exaggeration of the omnipotent aspects of the character. He advanced the idea of Superman into a new realm, but that is by no means the only way to depict him.

 

[Weiss]

Yeah, that is a consideration one has to keep in mind, and that's why I try to remember to say things like 'versions' where necessary and as I can remember.

I mean, it works the inverse way with Batman, and you can see it even as late as Batman the Animated Series, at least in the first few seasons. The way he talks as Batman, and the way he reacts as Bruce Wayne, suggest a core persona that flows between the two, rather than one identity being created solely to facilitate the other The whole 'Batman is his real self, Bruce died at age 8' notion really came to the fore in the comics around that time, was further popularised by stuff like Batman Beyond, and has since become the staple.

Apologies if getting off track a little.

Bruce Wayne, as a character, really only exists so there's a reason why Batman can be a multibillionaire ninja detective. His super power is the vaguely defined Wayne fortune.

 

[Rooster12]

To expand on this: Batman, whilst he has the tragedy of losing his parents at a young age, and struggles (depending on writer) with his inner demon, is also a billionaire playboy who got training to be basically a ninja and master detective, and depending on continuity, is also a genius in just about everything.

.

Pre-Crisis Batman is definitely more relatable than Superman (and my favorite version of Batman). Those were before the Batgod/Batdick days where he actually could get beat up by your random thug down the street. Where he hasn't mastered 100 styles of martial arts. Where he wasn't the smartest asshole in the room. He just never gave up despite his physical limitations, in those days you could tell he was nowhere near the other powerful DC characters.

 

[Lionel Mandrake]

Superman was raised by the Kents as Clark. He learned to walk, speak, and fly as Clark. In most versions he didn't even know he was an alien until puberty. You don't just suddenly turn into Kal-El because you find out you're adopted.

 

[mr jones]

This is why I love Lex Luthor and it saddens me that no one seems interested in bringing this portrayal of him into the movies. Lex is one of the greatest villains of all time, and the movies just have never shown it.

Eh, but only through the last 15 years or so. Lex Luthor has been a pretty ridiculous villain until some good writers decided to give a damn.

When you write good villains, it makes the hero that much better.

 

[Green Mamba]

Superman has been around for nearly a century, there's no one "correct" Superman. Just because an interpretation is new or old or lasted a long time or anything like that doesn't make said interpretations any more or less valid.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

Superman was raised by the Kents as Clark. He learned to walk, speak, and fly as Clark. In most versions he didn't even know he was an alien until puberty. You don't just suddenly turn into Kal-El because you find out you're adopted.

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

The point is it hasn't been a relevant part of the character for decades, but Tarantino drops it in Kill Bill and suddenly every fanboy takes it as gospel.

I'm thinking Goyer had that stupid speech in mind when he wrote MoS. It would explain a lot.

Well yeah, it's the fanboys fault for taking everything he says as gospel. I don't think you can blame Quentin for not knowing the difference between pre-crisis and post-crisis Superman.

Superman was raised by the Kents as Clark. He learned to walk, speak, and fly as Clark. In most versions he didn't even know he was an alien until puberty. You don't just suddenly turn into Kal-El because you find out you're adopted.

Pre-crisis Superman learned who he was very early in life and operated as Superboy through his childhood and adolescence. He definitely played the detached alien more than he does now.

 

[Weiss]

Eh, but only through the last 15 years or so. Lex Luthor has been a pretty ridiculous villain until some good writers decided to give a damn.

When you write good villains, it makes the hero that much better.

The John Byrne Luthor is the single best version in comics, and constant resets to the cackling supervillain in green and purple armor diminish what made him so fantastic. He's just some asshole who thinks he's smart enough to kill an actual God.

Though, best version of Luthor, period, is DCAU Luthor.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

This. I hate Tarantino for perpetuating that bullshit.

Then Clark is a bullshit artist whose Superman persona is a facade, and deep down all the "you're a hero too" stuff is all crap as he doesn't believe it himself.

No, I'd rather believe Clark is an act and Superman is what he really is.

But maybe his real self is none of those things. Perhaps it's a mixture of Superman and Clark (with none of the latter's bumbling nonsense and neurosis). Perhaps that version is only known to the people closest to him.

 

[Elginer]

Yep, if you want people to know why you love Superman point them to this comic.

Pretty much. It's perhaps why I have such loathing for what Snyder is doing with Superman. The man misses the point of who Superman is entirely.

 

[Rooster12]

The John Byrne Luthor is the single best version in comics, and constant resets to the cackling supervillain in green and purple armor diminish what made him so fantastic. He's just some asshole who thinks he's smart enough to kill an actual God.

Yep, in Superman #2 he finds out that Clark Kent is Superman. But he simply refuses to believe it because there is no way that a man as powerful as Superman would work a 9-5 job in an office. One of the best Luthor moments ever.

 

[BKatastrophe]

But where's the For All Seasons love?

The only thing that ruins it is the Quitely artwork.

Sad but true

 

[Weiss]

Then Clark is a bullshit artist whose Superman persona is a facade, and deep down all the "you're a hero too" stuff is all crap as he doesn't believe it himself.

No, I'd rather believe Clark is an act and Superman is what he really is.

But maybe his real self is none of those things. Perhaps it's a mixture of Superman and Clark (with none of the latter's bumbling nonsense and neurosis). Perhaps that version is only known to the people closest to him.

Then you're looking at it wrong. Sure, Superman's an alien, but he's one of us. He was raised by humans, he thought of himself as human, and uses his powers for the benefit of everyone. John Byrne even, somewhat painfully, literalized this in his reboot, where Superman actually was born on Earth.

If Clark were just a facade then Superman, the most powerful and altruistic being on the planet, wouldn't have pursued a career in telling the truth and exposing corruption.

TLDR: Clark is who he is, Superman is what he does.

 

[George Oscar Bluth II]

But where's the For All Seasons love?

 

[King Gilga]

It would have been more impactful if it wasn't a generic looking emo goth punk looking chick.

But that totally took away anything I could could have gotten out of it.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Yeah like.... what the fuck.