Whiskeymatt
Member
This is the way to go, just like in Team ICO games.
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Zelda Wii U announced - "Rethink the conventions of Zelda"
- Thread starter PapaJustify
- Start date
This is the way to go, just like in Team ICO games.
They pretty much already do. They use a fake language or mumbles, the just don't do it for every line. It wouldn't add much since you'd still just be reading text.
SS did try to adress faults with TP, but I be damned if it came up with a good answer. When people say that the world was empty, the solution shouldn't be to remove it altogether. Thats not what people are asking for. Rather, expand on the world, and fill it with noteworthy content. The world should be there, and it should be more than just a place to get from a to b. Don't forget that TP was also about as linear as Zelda games get without completely removing a world.
As for items, I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to have spread-out item usage and non-linearity. Non-linearity doesn't imply that you have to be able to get to the final dungeon once you start the game. However, I do think it would be neat if Nintendo made it so that dunegons could be beaten in more than one way, depending on which items you have. If you have a certain item you could progress through a dungeon differently. That would be a million times more interesting than simply having another linear dungeon, and would probably feel more like a proper dungeon.
The problem with TP was that there was no adventure, i.e. no wonder-inducing exploration. The mechanical part you're alluding to above is only a small part of that. More importantly, you visited all the same spots as in OoT, only less coherently designed and in a less well thought-out order. The only new thing was the Twilight realm (not counting a similar approach in LttP and even OoT), but that was mostly the same world only darker and quite restrictive.
The reason Wind Waker worked, was because it reimagined Zelda as a breezy (pun intended) sunday morning cartoon. That made the wonder fresh. Not the mechanics per se.
In Skyward Sword they took precisely the wrong direction imo. By focusing on mechanics they threw away the exploration completely and turned it into a Mario lite. The artstyle was nice though and there were occasional moments of wonder.
Bjoern the Smexy
Member
Suggestion from a previous thread:
"Just get rid of the puzzles please. Or make a puzzle zelda spinoff for puzzle fans and a action/rpg zelda for older Zelda fans."
I hope they don't read GAF too much
They should add MORE puzzles, just to tick him off.
Bjoern the Smexy
Member
They should at least do that for every character like how they did it with Fi and Midna.
EDIT: Excuse the double post
Poltergust
Member
So... would this be like a 3D Four Swords game? Because that would be totally awesome.
I wouldn't mind having fewer main dungeons/temples (let's say, 6) as long as those dungeons are each and every one of them are a masterpiece in dungeon design, huge, and the bolded is included. the overworld would have to be alive and full of secrets, though.
Suggestion from a previous thread:
"Just get rid of the puzzles please. Or make a puzzle zelda spinoff for puzzle fans and a action/rpg zelda for older Zelda fans."
I hope they don't read GAF too much
who dared to say that?
we need to hunt him down
KeeSomething
Banned
Yes! Now this is great news! After TP, PH, ST, and SS... I didn't think I could look forward to a Zelda game ever again, then Aonuma answers my prayers! Going back to the basics is what I've been saying the series should do since Twilight Princess. Take inspiration from the original NES game, and build up a new game from there--focus on exploration again!
No one from Nintendo ever claimed anything in SS was going to be non-linear; though, Nintendo did say they were going back to the basics with that game. To be fair, SS is the biggest change the in gameplay engine we've seen since Ocarina of Time.
Mankind is not prepared for so great a game.
TheCongressman1
Member
If you could progress through a dungeon with several items this would encourage exploration and give replay value. Don't tell or force the player to complete it in a certain way. Make it more open. This does not mean take out all the great puzzles, it just means don't force the players from room to room.
It would also help if the items could function in several ways. Don't make the clawshot only usable on a little grapple plate. Have it hook onto lots of stuff. Let the player swing from it rather than just being pulled toward the object. Things like that let the player try new things rather than being stuck to doing one thing.
It would also help if the items could function in several ways. Don't make the clawshot only usable on a little grapple plate. Have it hook onto lots of stuff. Let the player swing from it rather than just being pulled toward the object. Things like that let the player try new things rather than being stuck to doing one thing.
Twilight Princess
Member
i know most of us will end up disappointed and it'll be the same old shit just like every console zelda after alttp (except mm).
Well, people thought Skyward Sword was the same old shit, so at this point I'm beginning to think Zelda could be made a first person space marine shooter and as long as Link wears a green tunic and collects rupees people will think it's the same old shit.
Always-honest
Banned
Good to hear they are rethinking it. Especially now with more power. Can't wait ( but will probably have to till christmas 2014)
If the game is shorter then they intended then so be it. Don't put in any extra padding, especially padding that is timed based. I hated the tear collections in Skyward Sword. So much so that I gave up trying to do it myself and watched how to do it on YouTube and repeated what was shown. That was something in the past when I was younger would have caused me to stop playing the game and just walk away from it never to look back. It almost happen with Skyward Sword until I realized I was on the last one and just push myself through it. Forget Fi, forget repeating of items upon pick up, etc. That tear crap is something I really hated.
This stuff was in past games but I think Skyward Sword was my breaking point with it. Give me another dungeon. Give me more boss battles. Make me revisit past locations to get things if they insist on making the game longer. I'm fine with that as I know what a worse alternative could be now. Just no more timed based collecting. It's why I will never replay The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword even though I loved everything else about it. I'm in the last dungeon now as I needed a break getting to it. So once I'm finally done it's going on the shelf to sadly never be played again.
If they address that and understand that not everyone playing Zelda will be playing for the first time so there should be an option that accounts for that I'll might be okay or even happy with whatever they do. I have faith they can change things up. I just hope nothing like they talked about above happens.
This stuff was in past games but I think Skyward Sword was my breaking point with it. Give me another dungeon. Give me more boss battles. Make me revisit past locations to get things if they insist on making the game longer. I'm fine with that as I know what a worse alternative could be now. Just no more timed based collecting. It's why I will never replay The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword even though I loved everything else about it. I'm in the last dungeon now as I needed a break getting to it. So once I'm finally done it's going on the shelf to sadly never be played again.
If they address that and understand that not everyone playing Zelda will be playing for the first time so there should be an option that accounts for that I'll might be okay or even happy with whatever they do. I have faith they can change things up. I just hope nothing like they talked about above happens.
For me, there was. I was surprised how much I missed.
I don't see how the handheld zeldas differ. If the console zeldas are the same, then the handheld ones are even moreso.
Hand held Zeldas were amazing when they stuck to the ALttP formula. LA, OoS and OoA are some of the best Zelda games. But Handheld Zelda doesn't really follow that formula anymore. Excluding Minish Cap, the others are Four Swords, which is a level-based multiplayer, and the two DS ones, which are out in left field. And strictly speaking, the DS ones are closer to Minish Cap, I guess, since all 3 do the "Four Elemental dungeons and a final" thing, but Minish Cap doesn't have a central dungeon to which you repeatedly return.
Twilight Princess
Member
I only mentioned console because I've played them, my last handheld zelda was minish cap. Maybe they are better maybe they're worse, but I just don't know.
I keep hearing nintendo's going to "change the formula" with zelda, but it never actually happened, how am I to believe that this time is different? oot, ww, tp, ss, they're all essentially the same stuff, and the worst thing is they cut down exploration, in alttp I used to fool around the map and discover really cool items, and I can't remember instances like that in recent zeldas. as much as I love the franchise, I can only take so much before the repetitiveness becomes completely stale.
If the game is shorter then they intended then so be it. Don't put in any extra padding, especially padding that is timed based. I hated the tear collections in Skyward Sword. So much so that I gave up trying to do it myself and watched how to do it on YouTube and repeated what was shown. That was something in the past when I was younger would have caused me to stop playing the game and just walk away from it never to look back. It almost happen with Skyward Sword until I realized I was on the last one and just push myself through it. Forget Fi, forget repeating of items upon pick up, etc. That tear crap is something I really hated.
This stuff was in past games but I think Skyward Sword was my breaking point with it. Give me another dungeon. Give me more boss battles. Make me revisit past locations to get things if they insist on making the game longer. I'm fine with that as I know what a worse alternative could be now. Just no more timed based collecting. It's why I will never replay The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword even though I loved everything else about it. I'm in the last dungeon now as I needed a break getting to it. So once I'm finally done it's going on the shelf to sadly never be played again.
If they address that and understand that not everyone playing Zelda will be playing for the first time so there should be an option that accounts for that I'll might be okay or even happy with whatever they do. I have faith they can change things up. I just hope nothing like they talked about above happens.
What? Tear collection was great intense fun!
I wish there was more of that sort of stuff.
In general I feel like Zelda fans themselves complain way too much about the Zelda games. They expect reinventing the experience of playing TOOT for the first time each time and it isn't possible.
Maybe its just me but TP was great and SS was even better. Were there flaws or annoying things? Yeah they aren't perfect games but extremely enjoyable experiences.
My only wish for future Zelda games is more NPC interaction which I don't think they ever recaptured since MM. Give me more of that, side quests and story lines, make it a little less linear, and it will be quite possibly my favorite game of all timez.
TheCongressman1
Member
Of course not, it's still going to have to be well designed. I just think it's a better fit to have this kind of freedom in an adventure game like Zelda.
It's not about how amazing they are, it's about that they are basically the same. People are always mentioning console games when saying that the Zelda series is stale, but seem to forgive the handheld games despite being also as stale as the console ones. Just having a central dungeon you always return to doesn't shake up the formula considerably.
Sis Focaccia
Member
Skyward Sword was actually refreshing in that it wasn't the same old shit, but it was definitely shit.
As long as the same team is working on it, I have no faith.
Honestly, I didn't really love the overworld/dungeon blend in SS.
The distinction between the two gave previous 3D Zeldas some breathing room and moments of exploration/quiet reflection, instead of constant puzzling. The combination sort of damaged that feeling of awe or fear when you entered a dungeon, because the entire game had turned into one.
Not to mention, it really killed the immersiveness of the world, by making it all very... video-gamey.
(I still liked SS though.)
Man legend of zelda is a tough game to make because there is no pleasing the fan base, and in my opinion the standards are set way too high. I would just like Nintendo to juat make what they want to make. Like i said, regardless of what comes out there is going to be angry fans anyways.
In terms of modernizing the series, i think that is fine so long as it still has that distinct feel to it. If i want to play skyrim, ill play skyrim. Implementing smalll ideas from other games is fine.
Never was fond of playing multiplayer (i guess because i have so many multiplayer games and experience both locally and online) but as long as it has nothing drastic to do with the main game im fine.
Ultimately i don't have too high standards, i enjoyed skyward sword and every other zelda for what it was, so i just want nintendo to keep doing what they do.
sorry in advance for spelling/grammar on phone
In terms of modernizing the series, i think that is fine so long as it still has that distinct feel to it. If i want to play skyrim, ill play skyrim. Implementing smalll ideas from other games is fine.
Never was fond of playing multiplayer (i guess because i have so many multiplayer games and experience both locally and online) but as long as it has nothing drastic to do with the main game im fine.
Ultimately i don't have too high standards, i enjoyed skyward sword and every other zelda for what it was, so i just want nintendo to keep doing what they do.
sorry in advance for spelling/grammar on phone
Obviously they could have done better. I think the only area they really dropped the ball on was the forest since it was mostly fetch quests in a big open area. The volcano area had a great design to it (they fit a lot into such a relatively small area) and the desert was amazing.
I still play the original Zelda from time to time. Its still as good as it was back then. Just walking around exploring, finding secrets and dungeons is something I am missing in many of the modern Zelda's. If they go back to that kind of gameplay, this will be the best Zelda ever made.
Duane Cunningham
Member
Suggestion from a previous thread:
"Just get rid of the puzzles please. Or make a puzzle zelda spinoff for puzzle fans and a action/rpg zelda for older Zelda fans."
I hope they don't read GAF too much
Well... I guess that IS kind how the Oracle games were split up.
Duane Cunningham
Member
Yeah, I agree. I've really liked the series all the way through, but there's something about the "anything can happen" feeling in that old gold cartridge that they've never quite replicated.
See, people say things like this and I feel like they have no definition of "the formula" because the DS games were different from the Ocarina of Time 3 dungeons, then event, then more dungeons route. They're 4 dungeons then final dungeon, but go back to home after every dungeon.
Usually when I hear "the formula" people are referring to that, to the Ocarina of Time model with Z targeting, the 3-then-more set up and the conventions introduced in Ocarina. Like it or not, the DS games dropped many of the established Zelda conventions, which, as far as I'm concerned, means that people who bitch about Zelda going "stale" are out of their fucking minds. Because the hand held games that stuck to the ALttP/LA formula and used all those "stale" conventions are better, and better received, than the DS games, which radically altered the control schemes, the means of traveling between dungeons, the quest lay out, and hell, didn't even have you racing to stop Ganon.
If, on the other hand, people are saying that the idea of "enter dungeon, get keys, get item, use item to progress in game," is the stale Zelda formula, they are well and truly out of their fucking minds, because that's how a Zelda game IS. In Mario you will run, jump, collect coins and power ups and bop guys on the head. In Pokemon you will fight gym leaders and collect Pokemon. If these were to change, then the mainline games would not be mainline games. In a Zelda game, you go in a dungeon, grab keys and shiny new gear, fight a boss, and use that item to advance the game. Even Adventure of Link insists upon this self-same formula.
Did Skyward Sword contain elements that were detrimental? Absoltuely. Skyworld was more empty than the Great Sea and Twilight Princess' Hyrule field combined. Returning to it to reach a different part of the lowerworld was unnecessary and painful. The harp required no effort to play. Rupees remained useless. Sure, I agree.
Was there a noted lack of extra stuff? Yes, I'll warrant that. They treated earrings as a legitimate upgrade, had no extra tunics, swords, only one extra shield, and made for a rather bare inventory.
But some things here are getting blown out of proportion. Take sequence breaking. The last Zelda that really let you do that was Majora's Mask. Even then, as far back as the first game in the series required you at least enter a dungeon and claim its item before you could access other areas. Without the raft, there's no going to the island level, etc.
I'm not saying there aren't things that cannot be improved upon, and that there aren't elements that need changing. But saying "the stale formula" is horseshit when, 1)nobody has a set definition for what this formula IS and 2)some of the things suggested sound more like people should just find something other than Zelda to play.
Did you see the post where the guy said there should be no puzzles in Zelda? How can it even be Zelda without puzzles?
Do it Aonuma! I'm glad they've finally decided to listen to the (important) fans. Break a bunch of conventions of 3D zelda, I don't care. Hopefully they will deliver on Openworld Zelda.
The visual style is important too. Do something groundbreaking like WW but don't copy WW. I liked the old Zelda concept art from another thread where Link was shaded with one color, the enemy was shaded one color, and the background was shaded one color but they were realistically proportioned while still having cartoon stylizations. That coupled with dynamic color changes depending on the area would be fantastic.
The visual style is important too. Do something groundbreaking like WW but don't copy WW. I liked the old Zelda concept art from another thread where Link was shaded with one color, the enemy was shaded one color, and the background was shaded one color but they were realistically proportioned while still having cartoon stylizations. That coupled with dynamic color changes depending on the area would be fantastic.
Or if the fans won't be pleased no matter what, they should take a break from Zelda completely. It isn't their top selling franchise and if at this point they feel obligated to put one out, though I doubt that is the case, then they should take a break and maybe create a new IP in the same mold/genre.
Personally the Zelda games to me are the pinnacle of game-play, pacing, and design overall. I love them to death. Enjoy them more than any other Nintendo ip/genre/AAA game. Just edged out the 3D Mario games for me. We already wait 5-6 years between proper console sequels and they do try to change it up as much as they can but I believe what fans want isn't possible.
The transition from 2D to 3D was so monumental, enjoyable, and amazing and it can't be recaptured again by changing a few mechanics here and there. The Galaxy games for Mario soft of delivered that feeling of "new" and "amazing" that Mario 64 did but only because you have so much more freedom with what you can do in a Mario game.
If anything I think Nintendo needs to take the Zelda series more in the direction of MM. Maybe a quest that has nothing to do with the main story line. Or something that incorporates more NPC interactions.
And with all that said, even if they just release another Zelda game that is similar to the last 2-3 I'll be ecstatic because I enjoyed them so much.