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[Schrödinger's cat]

Prove it.

Allegations without proof?
Accusations without evidence?

Just another normal day.

 

[Yoshi]

Here in Germany, raping your wife was legal only 50 years ago.

22 years ago it was legal and we still have conservative members of parliament who voted against it, among them the current secretary of interior, Seehofer.

 

[the Guynecologist]

Sorry theguynecologist but when I woke up and looked on here there was 6 new pages of shit and I just skipped everything lmao.

It's on page 6. Before Alec died.

Well, jesus... alright. Simple summary: Female game developer who created the twine game Depression Quest. Later was involved in a bonkers controversy around her personal life that metastasised into Gamergate in 2014. Now works as a comic book writer. That's about as much as you can say that everyone agrees on.

Divisive figure, very very divisive. In many ways the Gamergate... thing divided the online gaming community in ways that are still going on today. You could argue it lead to the split that happened on this site in late 2017 but by then Gamergate was over. Basically to a large portion of the gaming community she's almost a martyr, harassed by a misogynistic hate mob organised by her jilted ex-boyfriend for crimes she didn't commit, this is the view that the people on ResetEra by and large have. To another large group she's a professional victim, grifter extraordinaire and a compulsive liar to boot. As you may be able to tell the users of this site have more the latter opinion and honestly I somewhat agree with them.

Let me explain my view. By the way hi, this is my second post on here. I finally decided to make an account just to reply to this question. Hopefully this post falls under the rules but if any moderators or admins have a problem with it please tell me and I will edit this post accordingly. Also sorry for the novel-length post, I figured if I was going to do this I should be thorough. And before I start: this is not a defence of gamergate. I could write an entire novel about where it went wrong and the problems it had from day one. This is specifically about Quinn because... well, you asked.

Anyway I was never a Gamergator, I was around at the time it happened but missed most of the early drama on 4chan and Reddit so was totally out of the loop when one day multiple sites posted articles decrying the 'Death/End of Gamers'. It was confusing and bizarre that all these sites were running essentially the same story. But I didn't get involved in any way, by that point the gamergate controversy had already become too confusing to get a handle on. Besides more than a few women were apparently being harassed in really vile ways and no one in their right mind wants to be associated with that. Plus I had a life.

Later in 2016 my life fell apart around me for several months and I became unintentionally immersed in the bizarre drama that was raging all over the internet, many of the faces involved (Sargon, Milo Yiannopolous) having been faces in the gamergate controversy that had now basically ended. I learnt a lot more about what gamergate actually was then but the origin was still a mystery to me the more I looked into it.

Basically a pro-gamergator will tell you that the whole thing started when it was revealed that an indie dev (Zoe) had slept with a games journalist and shortly afterwards her game had received a good review from said writer. Only that's completely untrue, says someone else (let's call them anti-gamergate), there was no review for Depression Quest. What actually happened was that said indie dev's 'jilted' ex-boyfriend (Eron Gjoni) wrote a nearly 10,000 word, misogynistic, 'sexual manifesto' detailing his ex's many sexual slights against him and then posted it to 4chan in order to get various anonymous trolls to 'harass her into therapy'. This is where the claim that Zoe Quinn had slept with a games journalist and then got a good review came from and the whole thing was quickly revealed to be a load of lies.

Neither version of the story is exactly true but that's about as far as I dived into it back then, I never read through the 'Zoe Post' to really confirm what was and wasn't true (that thing is goddamn long for a start and by that point gamergate itself was by and large over so it almost didn't matter anymore.) About a year later the internet drama had subsided, Milo Yiannopolous was disgraced. Sargon was increasingly becoming a joke/losing his mind and the whole thing was completely and utterly over.

So one day, late 2017, I was curious about what the hell had happened. I learnt Zoe Quinn had written a book about her experiences, Crash Override: How Gamergate (Nearly) Destroyed My Life. I was curious what her perspective on the whole thing was and considered giving it a read. First I looked at the Amazon page for it though, reviews were about what I expected: about half of them were 5 star reviews calling it a masterpiece and the other half were one star reviews calling Zoe Quinn a liar and a whore, with a small percentage of them being 2-4 star reviews by people who seemed to have actually read the book.

But then one review caught my eye. It was on the first page, one paragraph, 4 stars. The title drew my attention, just saying "..." so I read it and was utterly confused. Here it is. This archive was taken slightly before the title change though so it still has its original title. Just in case the link doesn't work for you here it is in full:

"Removed my houseguest and her review since it was on my account, and had a chance to read the book. Yes, my daughter did take some liberties with her childhood history, but, that is what writers do, a normal childhood is boring reading, the point of her book is well met with good intent and written well. I hope it helps women in the gaming industry as it is meant to.Small minded people can do with this what they may. "

Now I found myself reading and re-reading that over and over and still being absolutely bewildered. So I clicked on the title and found out that Amazon reviews actually have comments sections (I didn't know up until that point) and discovered that the 15 or so people who still gave a rat's arse about gamergate in 2017 (the number is even smaller now) had commented, mocking Quinn mostly. One commenter had something interesting to say though: a link to the original version of that review that had been left a few days prior. The title: "I initially bought this book optimistic that a brilliant child I watched grow up had prospered and surmounted almost..." The rating: two stars. Here it is in full. But again in case the link doesn't work for you:

"I initially bought this book optimistic that a brilliant child I watched grow up had prospered and surmounted almost impossible negativity but was profoundly shocked from the onset. The first chapters contained multiple falsehoods regarding her childhood and I just quit reading. Her Mother is a close friend of many years, our daughters grew up together. Nobody deserves the horrors endured at the hands of misogyny rampant in the gaming industry as described, certainly not Chelsea (Zoe) who tried to help those experiencing depression, but ironically in her own words, had little sympathy for her own Mother with depression other than perceiving herself as a victim. Zoe is a talented writer, wish it was more factual because it does cast doubts on the accuracy of the rest of the tale. Also wish she was more appreciative of the small town, morally sound, traditionally rich childhood that she actually had. "

Now I was somehow even more confused but the pieces were starting to fall into place. If you've read some of the previous comments you might have noticed some people joking about how her mother's died twice now. Well, here's her mothers view of her daughters' story. I mean that's assuming that this isn't a house-guest, who logged into her amazon account. And even in the edited version she still claims her daughter lied about her childhood. I don't know am I being an asshole? The answer's probably yes but I saw this with my own two eyes, this was public (at least as far as the internet goes) for a while anyway. Don't try looking for this review, it's been deleted for years now hence why I provided archive links as proof that this was real.

So I dug a little deeper. Before I go on I need to point out to any moderators or administrators reading this: I have made sure that all links I have provided do not contain any information that can lead to possible doxxing of either Zoe's mother or Zoe herself. It's against the rules but I just don't want it to happen regardless. Clicking on the account name on either review archive brings you to an 'error' page as Amazon's account pages do not let you archive them and the account is now long deleted. If it didn't I would not have posted it. I've read through the rules and I think what I've posted is okay but if you have a problem I will change this post accordingly.

Anyway I dug a little deeper and discovered a rather nasty troll-forum which had been a part of gamergate from the start. I'm not going to name it for obvious reasons but I'll just give you the gist. Basically Quinn's mother had been doxxed years ago, although that might sound bad I need to stress that the only thing the trolls discovered was her name... which then lead to her Facebook account which is quite invasive but I digress, I never said that these were good people on this forum. It turned out shortly after the first version of the review (the 'houseguest' version) someone had trawled through the user's account and had discovered Zoe's mother's name on one of the wishlists. This account and the wishlist itself were several years old, predating the events of 2014. Obviously I cannot post links or proof of this, I am afraid you're going to have to trust me on this one. About 4 days later (on 9/11 as well just to add to the surreal humour of all this) the review was re-edited into the 4 star version I posted, her account was made private and her Facebook suddenly locked. Later I went back to check I hadn't dreamt this all up and found everything had been deleted, the review, her account, everything.

But now my curiosity was peaked. How did Zoe's mother find out that a fairly obscure site had found out that her review, wherein she posed as a family friend, had actually been left by her. I strongly doubt that she had discovered this troll-forum for herself, or that they contacted her in any way (it's just not their MO even though it is possible.) A new theory started emerging in front of me. Did Zoe Quinn keep tabs on the people who were gossiping about her? Did she force her own mother to change her review of her book once she found out about it? This is something of a conspiracy theory, but the more I learnt about the actual origins of the gamergate controversy the more it started to be the most plausible explanation. Plus in both cases her mother said that the opening chapters about her childhood are nothing but lies.

So, I started researching, reading through the entire history of the initial Zoe Quinn scandal and the subsequent Gamergate controversy that spawned from it. I now had a weird issue though, I was now mildly obsessed with long-dead internet drama from 3 years ago (5 years now). This story had taken the internet by storm in 2014 and was divisive as hell right from the start, splitting the internet gaming community in two and it still hasn't fully recovered from it. Plus many of the people involved in the pro-gamergate side are now embarrassed as all hell about their involvement. Many have deleted or made private any and all of their public posts/videos about it mostly leaving only the voices of people who are still obsessed with it, some of whom have gone absolutely bonkers in the subsequent years.

However I discovered what I think really happened with the controversy around Zoe Quinn. I could go into details if you want in another post but that's besides the point. What I'd seen on the Amazon review page was basically the exact behaviour that started the whole gamergate thing in the first place. Someone from Zoe's real life calling her out for being a liar in a very public way. It's honestly possible to feel some sympathy for Zoe as it is someone airing dirty laundry out in public. But then something weird happens, in this case it got censored and then later deleted. In other cases it gets memory-holed, articles about it might get pulled from sites and then excluded from Wayback Machine archives, any and all discussion on other forums is immediately deleted including 4chan's /pol/ board, etc. With gamergate they believed that this was some kind of a conspiracy but I disagree (one of my many, many problems with the gamergate movement.) I think, and I believe I'm right about this, that it's Zoe Quinn herself doing damage control in the most obvious and suspect way possible. In the case of what happened after her ex-boyfriend posted his long-ass helldump about her this damage control triggered a massive backlash on several forums and chan boards. However her version of the story was picked up by the media (to be clear here, we're mostly talking about feminist blogs here, not mainstream news sources or even gaming websites... at first. This later changed when it turned into gamergate where both gaming and mainstream sources picked up on the story and found themselves citing those blogs which were in turn citing Zoe's own version of events. ) I would argue her attempts at damage control were what actually set off the internet and caused the massive shitstorm that lead to gamergate.

More than that though, both her mother's review and the 'Zoe Post' written by her ex-boyfriend tell the same story. She lies about everything. That's the actual gist of the Zoe Post. Not only that but Eron Gjoni never claims in it that Zoe Quinn had sex for a good review. In fact the word 'review' never appears once in the text. He did claim that Zoe had slept with RPS/Kotaku writer Nathan Grayson, a game journalist who had in the past written articles about her, and that claim did turn out to be true. However it turned out soon afterwards that he'd never reviewed Depression Quest and all articles written about Quinn were from before they slept together (which is another criticism I could level at the gamergate movement.) However that's not what the Zoe Post is really about, it's about dated someone who turns out to be a compulsive liar, experiencing emotional abuse and discovering everything you thought you knew about your girlfriend was an elaborate lie. I don't like defending Gjoni by the way, I understand why he wrote the Zoe Post but I wouldn't have ever published it anywhere on the internet. Also, one of the big problems is that he decided to write it in a semi-funny relatable way. A sort of Gallows-humour which actually makes the thing quite readable despite its length. Unfortunately it caused many to not take it seriously and also unintentionally appealed to 4chan who turned his joke about how he started calling his ex 'Five Guys: Burgers and Fries' after finding out his girlfriend had been lying and gaslighting him and had actually been cheating on him with five different people, into a meme. Also he didn't post it to 4chan, 4chan found it on its own. Nor is it misogynistic or a sexual manifesto. Even calling him 'jilted' is wrong, he dumped her.

But I'm getting off-topic again. The thing to understand about Zoe Quinn is that anything that she says or writes is likely a lie. Zoe Quinn isn't even her real name, as her mother said, it's Chelsea (I know her last name too but I'll refrain from saying it here lest harassment or doxxing might occur). I'll put it like this: here's her Wikipedia page. Date of birth: 1987. You might be wondering why it doesn't have a month or day on it. Well, Zoe celebrates her birthday on August 13th. However some legal documents were filed when she took Eron Gjoni to court which showed that isn't real birthday. It's in September. I'd post proof but I'm unsure of whether or not that would be allowed under the rules here, so I won't take chances.

I could go on. There's a lot to say about Zoe Quinn.... well, Chelsea. Basically because everything she says is likely a lie it's quite possible that her claims of sexual harassment are bollocks. This is a fine line to walk on though, it could be true for all we know. But time and time again Zoe Quinn has been shown to be a massive liar. That's the thing that struck me about discovering that review for myself. By the time her book came out Gamergate was long over. Yet there was still this drama surrounding her despite all of harassers having long since moved on. Increasingly I learnt that there is still a drama around Zoe Quinn because there has always been a drama around Zoe Quinn because Zoe Quinn is the drama. Is that to say she didn't get harassed in really nasty, vile ways? No, she did (although one particular famous incident - the hacking and doxxing of her tumblr - does have a lot of asterisks attached to it but I will not go into that here) because the internet is awful and cruel. But as far as I can tell, it always stems from her own lies. And when people call her out about it things can get very, very weird.

Christ, I'll end this here. I could keep going on but I'll stop for now. Hopefully the links I've posted are allowed, sorry if they aren't. I think they're within the rules but if not my apologies.

TL;DR: Zoe Quinn is a divisive figure, many consider a innocent victim of a lot of bad stuff while many think she's a serial liar. I believe the latter more as I think I have seen proof of it for myself, as did many people on 4chan and Reddit about 5 years ago which inadvertently started the gamergate flame-war. As a result I would take her accusations of sexual assault with a huge grain of salt. It might be true for all we know but time and time again Zoe Quinn has shown a very loose grip on the truth and reality thus any statement made by her should be dealt with the utmost scrutiny.

Sorry for the novella.

You should've read my goddamn novel. Here's the proof of her real name and birthday too:

Oh fuck it. Well, Quinn's allegations seem to be blowing up in the media, again.Already the kind of shit-talking we're doing here is being framed as baseless misogyny at least according to Salon. I tried to write that last post in as charitable a way as I possibly could but it will never work. Anyway it turns out this board is a lot more anything goes than I initially thought so here's a police document Zoe Quinn filed against her ex-boyfriend. I mentioned it above:

Of course all pertinent contact information has been censored and it's legal to post. If any moderators have a problem with this I'll delete it. I just wanted to post it to show two things: 1. That's Zoe Quinn's real name. It's actually Chelsea Van Valkenburg and 2: Her birthday: September 4th, 1987.

Why do I bring this up? Zoe Quinn says her birthday is on August 13, 1987. She even celebrates this on twitter even up to August 13 this year... Everything Chelsea has ever said is likely a lie. Really, every single thing. This woman has a history of lying about everything in her entire existence. Zoe Quinn isn't even real, Chelsea's entire Zoe persona is a a fiction.

I think I'm more addressing this to anyone who might be reading this from outside Gaf, maybe even someone from ResetEra. Please listen, do not trust this person. This is (well for me anyway) not about claims of sexual abuse nor is this about the other allegations against Jeremy Soule - I don't know anything about the accuser and for all I know it could well be true. This is not about gamergate - that whole thing is long dead and needs to be buried. This is specifically about the fact that you people are believing the word of someone who is not trust-worthy, whose every word be it written or spoken is likely an outright lie.

It's clear that the hive-mind of this board has some views on #MeToo, sexual assault and twitter allegations which you might vehemently disagree with and that's entirely your right if you disagree. I'm not arguing with that. But the reason why everyone is treating this with such derision is because we've been here before. We've witnessed the same song and dance over and over and over again since she first became a hot-topic issue in late 2014.

I'm not saying that Zoe.... fuck it, Chelsea wasn't sexually abused by Alec Holowka at some point. But all you guys are going on is her word. And as someone who's watched this whole charade for a while now, I wouldn't believe a single thing she says. Please, if anyone's lurking from ResetEra, please listen. Don't trust this person. It doesn't matter what politics you have or if you're a feminist or have been sexually harassed/abused or anything else. Just don't trust Chelsea whatever you do.

 

[Scopa]

Such vitriol, so unbecoming of your average GAFer...and a new account with only 7 posts, all of them in this thread. Now if I were a betting man...

They do it every time. Accuse us of being alt-right, violent evil people and then they send one of their brainwashed idiots over here with a burner account to sow the seed and false evidence.

It’s pathetic.

 

[Flintty]

Hello NeoGaf! I just self nuked my account on ResetEra, I could no longer take the mob mentality and group think social justice types that would not bend on an honest to God rational opinion that was different than theirs. The suicide of Alec pushed me over the edge. I was more of a lurker here than anything, but I figured now would be the time to make my presence known.

Welcome! Any half decent person on that site should be questioning their ongoing presence there. It’s not a healthy site to participate in conversation.

This bitch just removed how much money she gets from Patreon or how many patreon she has. Guess she doesnt want the world to know its shrinking.

I put some grabs up earlier in this thread. A 67% drop in income from when at its peak. Who knows where it goes from here.

 

[DeepEnigma]

It's also massively hypocritical for the Conservatives here to pretend they are somehow less bad than the left in terms of online harassment. Places like 4chan/8chan, Stormfront, T_D and Kiwifarms have massive kill counts that dwarf shitlib twitter, brag and laugh about how they've gotten mentally ill people to kill themselves and the right just as often, if not more engage in mobbing and "kill yourself" abuse against mentally vulnerable people. It's where the "join the 40%" right wing meme comes from. (The high number of Transgender suicides).

It's a bit rich watching the pearl clutching from Conservatives over this, especially when just days ago as well people on the right were throwing Alec under the bus because he was a "SJW Dev" as well.

The issue is absolutely online mob/vigilante culture, but people on both sides are desperate to turn this political.

Also political compass is full of shit, doesn't understand that politics is philosophy and that specific basic one puts pretty much everyone in the bottom left corner when boards like T_D and /Pol/ did it they were all in the bottom left when they should be high/blue. It's because it improperly weights very basic moral questions into the bottom left.

Receipts please.

And clever way to open with your first sentence in attempt at grouping this place, with your accusations of those others places.

A place in which you too yourself, are a member of and randomly partake in.

So provide the receipts that this place has earned the alignment you are attempting to paint.

 

[Naru]

According to google checks, she was born female as Chelsea Van Valkenburg in 1987, so technically a female. But wants to be called a "they"

Why would you change your name from "van Valkenburg" to Zoë Quinn?! I guess because van Valkenburg sounds kinda majestic which she certainly is not.

 

[brap]

It's on page 6. Before Alec died.

LMAO THAT LONG ASS FUCKING NOVEL I SURE AS HELL WASN'T GONNA READ THAT
Sorry.

 

[the Guynecologist]

It's okay I went a little overboard. Still, I told ya I wasn't defending Chelsea.

 

[Halo is Back]

Lol these comments are a fun read.

Zach Kaplan in particular is just dying for a crumb of pussy.

Edit: Wait a minute, brap is that you? You sneaky sumbitch.

Woooooooow she took the money and fucking ran

 

[DeepEnigma]

Woooooooow she took the money and fucking ran

 

[Halo is Back]

It's also massively hypocritical for the Conservatives here to pretend they are somehow less bad than the left in terms of online harassment. Places like 4chan/8chan, Stormfront, T_D and Kiwifarms have massive kill counts that dwarf shitlib twitter, brag and laugh about how they've gotten mentally ill people to kill themselves and the right just as often, if not more engage in mobbing and "kill yourself" abuse against mentally vulnerable people. It's where the "join the 40%" right wing meme comes from. (The high number of Transgender suicides).

It's a bit rich watching the pearl clutching from Conservatives over this, especially when just days ago as well people on the right were throwing Alec under the bus because he was a "SJW Dev" as well.

The issue is absolutely online mob/vigilante culture, but people on both sides are desperate to turn this political.

Also political compass is full of shit, doesn't understand that politics is philosophy and that specific basic one puts pretty much everyone in the bottom left corner when boards like T_D and /Pol/ did it they were all in the bottom left when they should be high/blue. It's because it improperly weights very basic moral questions into the bottom left.

I have never nor will I ever condone cyber bullying. The people that do it are cowards regardless of the platform they use. I would not even justify if anyone on here harassed Zoe because that solves nothing. As far as I can tell no one on this thread has encouraged harassment

 

[Halo is Back]

The lesson here is kids, don’t give people money on Kickstarter.

 

[LMJ]

Yet another life snuffed out well before its prime...

The social media rage machine continues to chug along fueled with anger and bitterness at the world and lashing out at anyone they can, any surprise millenials are considered to be the loneliest and most identity driven generation ever?

Sad kids confused and looking for an outlet, any outlet for their woes, and sadly this is a huge part of the outrage culture, but the disheartening thing is the media is what is driving it...

People like Zoe (my bad) Chelsea are schiesters, but the so called "game journalists" feeding this bullshit are just as much to blame!

The truly sad part is that the alledged sexual assault isn't nor should have ever been game news, at most it should have been between Chelsea and Alec the authorities and maybe friends/co-workers...

We treat every day folks and people in our selected circles of interest like the paparazzi do celebrities and politicians and quite frankly its disgusting and stupid...

Whether he was guilty of the alledged crimes or not Alec didnt deserve this, my heart goes out to his family and friends.

 

[Hostile_18]

So Resetera piled on Alec and look what happened.

Now *some* users in this thread are doing the same to Zoe and making us look bad in the process.

Still no facts are known at this point. Jumping to conclusions either way about guilt or innocence isn't helping anyone.

We are better than this <3

 

[llien]

Thanks, man. I don't loathe you as well.


Also, I have finally figured out the cardinal directions of the political spectrum with this handy guide:

Shut up.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Shut up.

I’m in the green too, but the funny part is,
I recognize that real estate is the lowest risk investment gamble that one can make on average.

 

[captainraincoat]

So Resetera piled on Alec and look what happened.

Now *some* users in this thread are doing the same to Zoe and making us look bad in the process.

Still no facts are known at this point. Jumping to conclusions either way about guilt or innocence isn't helping anyone.

We are better than this <3

I don't think people have been attacking her....simply discussing that there are definitely some skeletons in her closet...The difference here is that people are not starting up lynch mobs and trying to dox...harass people...we are simply discussing which is allowed here

If people are coming here from ree trying to discuss and defend their viewpoint ask yourself....why have all threads on ree been locked and you are not allowed to discuss??

Edit
Not a dig at you but I agree with your point....we are better than certain hate filled places

 

[llien]

Western women have been treated horribly by men as a whole in the past.

Could you be more specific about it please. Which time period is to be regarded as such.
E.g. does World War I times count. World War II?
Time when neither men nor women had voting rights and 97% of population lived in misery, with infants mortality rate above 50%?
Who was ruling British Empire and Russian Empire for decades, when they waged wars left and right?

I don't challenge the oppression in the past part, but it almost never was as one sided as people normally paint it and was dictated as those in power solving their problems at hand, never a male conspiracy.

22 years ago it was legal and we still have conservative members of parliament who voted against it, among them the current secretary of interior, Seehofer.

It was legal both ways, although, of course we know which gender wants to have more sex typically.

 

[nush]

The scary part is how freaking organised that side of the movement is by some figureheads: the ones with blu ticked Twitter accounts repeating “Remember, DO NOT ENGAGE with GG, no reply’s, no mute’s, do not give them access to our followers... just block them and let’s build a block list” almost verbatim.

I could even almost understand that if lately being alt-right or GG meant more than just disagreeing with such figureheads on anything.

Here's what I don't understand as someone who didn't follow Gamergate originally or give a shit because it was some bullshit internet drama.

Is there a Gamergate.com or base of operations? It seems anyone can be accused and dismissed as being "Gamergate" because of what forums you post on or just by disagreeing with another perspective? If there was organized hate campaigns, wouldnt someone infultrate this group screencap and write an expose?? in 2019 it just feels like the GG corpse has been dug up to be paraded around as a boogieman.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Here's what I don't understand as someone who didn't follow Gamergate originally or give a shit because it was some bullshit internet drama.

Is there a Gamergate.com or base of operations? It seems anyone can be accused and dismissed as being "Gamergate" because of what forums you post on or just by disagreeing with another perspective? If there was organized hate campaigns, wouldnt someone infultrate this group screencap and write an expose?? in 2019 it just feels like the GG corpse has been dug up to be paraded around as a boogieman.

The list of GG’ers seems maintained by the self professed GG-spotters I was mentioning before... yeah I know... fucked up...

 

[joe_zazen]

Could you be more specific about it please. Which time period is to be regarded as such.
E.g. does World War I times count. World War II?
Time when neither men nor women had voting rights and 97% of population lived in misery, with infants mortality rate above 50%?
Who was ruling British Empire and Russian Empire for decades, when they waged wars left and right?

I don't challenge the oppression in the past part, but it almost never was as one sided as people normally paint it and was dictated as those in power solving their problems at hand, never a male conspiracy.

Most dont have a grasp on history, or the abject misery most people lived in once civilisation became a thing. I had one professor explain how he loved egyptology so much as a youth and was so disillusioned in his first physical archeology uni class where the prof went over what the bone remains told us about the lives and health of 99% of ancient Egyptians (men, women, children) and how they were treated by the powers that were, he almost changed areas. It is genuinely horrific. Pop history of his youth did not prepare him for that.

Anyone that thinks men had it any better than women except for the one percent of the one percent don't know shit. Civilisation was a mistake.

 

[the Guynecologist]

So Resetera piled on Alec and look what happened.

Now *some* users in this thread are doing the same to Zoe and making us look bad in the process.

Still no facts are known at this point. Jumping to conclusions either way about guilt or innocence isn't helping anyone.

We are better than this <3

I have to disagree. I know where you're coming from but I think this is an entirely different ball game. Alec Holowka got fired from his job, abandoned by his friends and pretty much un-personed from the industry before he killed himself. Zoe Quinn has deleted her twitter account and while there is a lot of shit being flung at her, her job writing comics is probably secure and no respected game journalist is going to cover this in any way that lays the blame for Alec's death at Chelsea's hands. Plus the twitter mob is by and large on her side, still... somehow.

And yes, I have been posting here for the last few days and in those posts (most of which were made before Alec's death) I outlined with proof, evidence as to Zoe Quinn's character and why I didn't necessarily believe her. You could argue I was rifling through the skeletons in her closet but at least 1 key detail: the review of her autobiography left by her mother, was something I saw happen in real time with my own eyes.

Also, a guy just fucking died over allegations that (at least in my personal opinion) are reasonably likely to be false or greatly exaggerated due to the person making those allegations. I had a low opinion of Zoe/Chelsea/Locke/whatever other name she comes up with before any of this happened. Now I am absolutely livid.

You are right that few facts have been properly established at this point but as someone who has watched Quinn's career and the borderline pathological lying, media circus and drama that goes with it, I have every reason to believe that at least part, if not all, of Zoe's statement is false. And without that statement Alec Holowka would probably still be alive today. I am not condoning harassment, I abhor harassment. I am however fucking livid and I think I have the right to speak my mind on an internet forum.

 

[RokkanStoned]

It's also massively hypocritical for the Conservatives here to pretend they are somehow less bad than the left in terms of online harassment. Places like 4chan/8chan, Stormfront, T_D and Kiwifarms have massive kill counts that dwarf shitlib twitter, brag and laugh about how they've gotten mentally ill people to kill themselves and the right just as often, if not more engage in mobbing and "kill yourself" abuse against mentally vulnerable people. It's where the "join the 40%" right wing meme comes from. (The high number of Transgender suicides).

4chan/8chan/kiwifarms conservative? Lol.
Stormfront representative of Conservatives? Lol. Are eco terrorists supposed to be representative of "Liberals"?
T_D? I'm pretty sure they haven't a "kill count", when I browsed it for the memes and keeping tabs on the various movements in 2016 it was mostly just shitposting and memes and not targeted attacks to cancel someone and ruin their lives. Unless you count CNN or Hillary Clinton.

Needing to appeal to generally fringe sites doesn't really put up a good showing compared to something as mainstream as twitter. When those fringe sites tend to have something happen there, even if they weren't responsible and the general user base wasn't responsible, they'll face public scrutiny and often attacks on their ability to maintain their site.

That said, I have no doubt that there are a lot of conservatives that also do online harassment (I don't think anyone has claimed otherwise), but they don't come from a comparable acceptable side. I doubt you would find many people in the Conservative party who'd like 4chan/8chan/kiwifarms, as they generally stand for more socially conservative views of society and etiquette, which the chans definitely aren't. When it comes to conservatives I'd imagine radio shows and irl harassment would be far more relevant. Only social media I could imagine would be facebook, which I could see conservatives use for such.

I do agree with the poster you quoted that it's not about "left vs right", though I would say it's proportionally more towards the left, due to its mainstream prominence. It's the growing Cancel culture, mostly being weaponized because of growing polarization, but most of all made possible due to the cultural zeitgeist being obsessed about the online world. Social media especially has made Cancel culture grow strong and hasty, ready to bring anyone down for anything that's not mainstream acceptable dogma. That and social media has made "movements" a big thing in terms of social capital and people are always vying for attention and brownie points online, and mobs can quickly form and fall in line with a narrative. Really, it's just a display of the dark parts of humanity when faced with virtual globalization and it has no "left" or "right" to it, as if right-wing was mainstream, then you'd have the same thing just right-wing. What would otherwise be personal drama gets elevated to the highest stage. What would otherwise be a case for police to investigate or rumor spreading in a social circle, gets elevated to the highest stage of attention.
People need a way to escape, they need hope for a future, otherwise they might get pushed over the edge. With the ever present and ever looming behemoth of social media, that respite is gone. Whenever something happens we should remain level headed and do things the right way, instead of vying for attention and clout in social media. Both being given the benefit of doubt in lacking further corroboration and being given a path towards redemption is important. That's how it is with people accused of a crime, that's how it is with how ex-felons are supposed to be treated.

 

[Hostile_18]

I don't think people have been attacking her....simply discussing that there are definitely some skeletons in her closet...The difference here is that people are not starting up lynch mobs and trying to dox...harass people...we are simply discussing which is allowed here

If people are coming here from ree trying to discuss and defend their viewpoint ask yourself....why have all threads on ree been locked and you are not allowed to discuss??

Edit
Not a dig at you but I agree with your point....we are better than certain hate filled places

Yeah I get what your saying. I guess it's just a fine line between questioning aspects and out right presuming guilt. I wouldn't like to think anyone outside of this forum takes action because of what they read here from our more "enthusiastic" members.

But just to be clear those are very, very few and it's easy to lose perspective in these emotional threads like Resetera clearly has in the opposite direction.

 

[Hostile_18]

I have to disagree. I know where you're coming from but I think this is an entirely different ball game. Alec Holowka got fired from his job, abandoned by his friends and pretty much un-personed from the industry before he killed himself. Zoe Quinn has deleted her twitter account and while there is a lot of shit being flung at her, her job writing comics is probably secure and no respected game journalist is going to cover this in any way that lays the blame for Alec's death at Chelsea's hands. Plus the twitter mob is by and large on her side, still... somehow.

And yes, I have been posting here for the last few days and in those posts (most of which were made before Alec's death) I outlined with proof, evidence as to Zoe Quinn's character and why I didn't necessarily believe her. You could argue I was rifling through the skeletons in her closet but at least 1 key detail: the review of her autobiography left by her mother, was something I saw happen in real time with my own eyes.

Also, a guy just fucking died over allegations that (at least in my personal opinion) are reasonably likely to be false or greatly exaggerated due to the person making those allegations. I had a low opinion of Zoe/Chelsea/Locke/whatever other name she comes up with before any of this happened. Now I am absolutely livid.

You are right that few facts have been properly established at this point but as someone who has watched Quinn's career and the borderline pathological lying, media circus and drama that goes with it, I have every reason to believe that at least part, if not all, of Zoe's statement is false. And without that statement Alec Holowka would probably still be alive today. I am not condoning harassment, I abhor harassment. I am however fucking livid and I think I have the right to speak my mind on an internet forum.

I agree with with your post detailing questioning her allegations etc and you offer very valid reasons why and explained it well. It's just too early to say 100% that she's lying or vice versa either way and nothing has been confirmed in a legal sense.

I especially agree with your sentiments on reactionary culture and its treatment of Alec in what was the very early stages of an accusation but let's not take that anger out on her at this point (it's far to early). Let the police take over and justice be served to whoever it needs to be served to.

 

[petran79]

Why would you change your name from "van Valkenburg" to Zoë Quinn?! I guess because van Valkenburg sounds kinda majestic which she certainly is not.

It sounds like an aristocratic anime villain and it would enstrange their supporters

 

[Kagey K]

It sounds like an aristocratic anime villain and it would enstrange their supporters

So I’m going to ask, because I can’t be bothered to actually google. But did Zoe Quinn actually have anything to do with any games being published under Zoe Mode?

 

[RokkanStoned]

Yeah I get what your saying. I guess it's just a fine line between questioning aspects and out right presuming guilt. I wouldn't like to think anyone outside of this forum takes action because of what they read here from our more "enthusiastic" members.

But just to be clear those are very, very few and it's easy to lose perspective in these emotional threads like Resetera clearly has in the opposite direction.

There are people that definitely presume guilt here as well and who hate Zoe Quinn a bit much (especially focusing a bit too much on her appearances, which I just think is a bit lazy and detracts from their point), but generally we have voices that try to balance that out. Just look at the Zoe Quinn kickstarter thread, whereupon some felt like calling it a scam right out the gate, while I tried to argue for a more cautioned approach (and that it might be, or it might not), and we had even one on the other side just outright defending her.
I think your careful approach is a good one and speaking against the masses/power is a good thing. Always be skeptical and make sure that one doesn't just perpetuate what you yourself found egregious. If you look into the abyss... well, you know the quote.

I do think most people are just showing their frustration with Zoe Quinn, mostly because there's a lot of dubious things about her. Nothing to "cancel" her over, she should be able to live happily and work, but enough to take a critical view of her and her behavior. It's not like she killed or forced Alec to commit suicide, but her reckless disregard for the consequences of using social media and her power to accuse him, without even taking any actions in regards to criminality, that was pretty shitty. It's not Zoe Quinn herself though that's the problem, it's the mob that forms and the companies/industries that'll throw you out to the wolves.

 

[Rien]

Why would you change your name from "van Valkenburg" to Zoë Quinn?! I guess because van Valkenburg sounds kinda majestic which she certainly is not.

Majestic? Its the most common sounding name I ever heared here in the Netherlands

 

[the Guynecologist]

I agree with with your post detailing questioning her allegations etc and you offer very valid reasons why and explained it well. It's just too early to say 100% that she's lying or vice versa either way and nothing has been confirmed in a legal sense.

I especially agree with your sentiments on reactionary culture and its treatment of Alec in what was the very early stages of an accusation but let's not take that anger out on her at this point (it's far to early). Let the police take over and justice be served to whoever it needs to be served to.

Well, the guy's dead now and his sister's statement seemed to be on Zoe's side moreso than that of her late brothers. I highly doubt whether any legal action will take place in the future. I agree with you on mob justice and the rest but I still disagree with your initial assessment. I don't think anyone here has gone over the line in the same way ResetEra, the twitter 'woke mafia' or Alec Holowka's friends, business associates and employers have done.

 

[llien]

There are people that definitely presume guilt here as well and who hate Zoe Quinn a bit much (especially focusing a bit too much on her appearances, which I just think is a bit lazy and detracts from their point), but generally we have voices that try to balance that out. Just look at the Zoe Quinn kickstarter thread, whereupon some felt like calling it a scam right out the gate, while I tried to argue for a more cautioned approach (and that it might be, or it might not), and we had even one on the other side just outright defending her they.
I think your careful approach is a good one and speaking against the masses/power is a good thing. Always be skeptical and make sure that one doesn't just perpetuate what you yourself found egregious. If you look into the abyss... well, you know the quote.

I do think most people are just showing their frustration with Zoe Quinn, mostly because there's a lot of dubious things about her they. Nothing to "cancel" her they over, she they should be able to live happily and work, but enough to take a critical view of her they and her them behavior. It's not like she they killed or forced Alec to commit suicide, but her them reckless disregard for the consequences of using social media and her them power to accuse him, without even taking any actions in regards to criminality, that was pretty shitty. It's not Zoe Quinn herself though that's the problem, it's the mob that forms and the companies/industries that'll throw you out to the wolves.

FTFY

 

[Hypereides]

Man, this entire situation has unearthed some things I never knew about Quinn. The photoshoot back in 00's, how she framed 4chan for hacking her tumblr, harassing a Kickstarter project about cyberbullying to shut it down, how she manipulated Wizardchan, to altering her mother's Amazon review... she sure has been busy.

As well as Alec suggesting how manipulative she is.

 

[JimmyRustler]

One major thing I get from all this is....

Western game development (and journalism) was a mistake, it is nothing but trash.

For the foreseeable future I will only buy used games from Western devs. Just cancel my MedEvil preorder. It was my only ongoing one from Western devs. From now on only Nintendo and Japanese devs get my $$$ directly.

For all I care Western game development can go up in falmes. What a shitshow.

 

[Deleted member 713885]

One major thing I get from all this is....

Western game development (and journalism) was a mistake, it is nothing but trash.

For the foreseeable future I will only buy used games from Western devs. Just cancel my MedEvil preorder. It was my only ongoing one from Western devs. From now on only Nintendo and Japanese devs get my $$$ directly.

For all I care Western game development can go up in falmes. What a shitshow.

Honestly, I've felt the same for quite some time.

I understand that gane dev's. dont like me (us). They dislike gamers, men, white men, straight white men.

 

[angelic]

Just as a massive generalisation, I find western indie devs to be utter prima donnas, with occasional exceptions like Thomas Happ. They want to be stars, not make games.

 

[cormack12]

I think the abilty to block people has been misused by a lot of these people. As well as 'don't @ me' and all the other shite. Online harassment is a real thing, but most of these frgaile progressives now equate 'questions' and 'critique' as harsssment. You'd have to be blind to not see it developing.

And all these empty alt-right statements - jesus christ. Politcally and emotionally stunted inviduals. The emergence of the safe spaces that allow everyone to converge around certain 'universal truths' and accept the discussion of more right aligned viewpoints only in terms of condemnation passes as 'free speeech' to them. There's a simple acid test, next time anyone says this, ask them to provide the name of a platform that they think offers fair and reasonable rpresentation to both ends of the spectrum and then laugh as they stutter and scrabble round frantically. It's not credible to paint everything as wrong without objective examples of what is 'right/acceptable'.

That tweet earlier about 4ch, GAF and KF as alt-right has been produced via indoctrination and built from social media tweets from other people. Labels applied with no personal responsibility or validation. Just passing the parcel to send up a flare they are 'for the cause!'

 

[the Guynecologist]

Man, this entire situation has unearthed some things I never knew about Quinn. The photoshoot back in 00's, how she framed 4chan for hacking her tumblr, harassing a Kickstarter project about cyberbullying to shut it down, how she manipulated Wizardchan (reference incoming), to altering her mother's Amazon review... she sure has been busy.

As well as Alec suggesting how manipulative she is.

For the WizardChan incident I would recommend reading through this old Gaf thread from 2013. I want to make a couple of things clear though about the incident:
1. The thread was deleted as soon as Zoe went live with her claims. There is no archive to prove their innocence
2. She then claimed that they had doxxed her and left threatening voice messages - wizardchan denied this as no phone number or contact information had been posted on the thread but again, the thread was deleted so no proof

But just read through the thread. Get through a few pages and you'll see what I mean. Even back then there was doubt about certain claims she made. Here's my favourite quote though, it's on page 3:

Later on the road when we learn that she made all those posts herself to boost her spotlight inducing users to buy her game for pity

And this one: whatatwist


But here's the response from Wizardchan. It's worth noting that some of the information is dubious - especially when it goes into conspiracy territory near the end, blaming Kiwifarms (then called the CWCki - which they misspelled as the CWCwiki) of being the real masterminds behind this. They likely weren't. Also this set of images was going around the internet for a good amount of time before the Zoe Post dropped. No one took it seriously however until they read the Zoe Post.

 

[Stiflers Mom]

Yes, let us be better than those shitheads on era.
Also, I'd consider my self leftist. But in no way I can understand what's going on with cancel culture and that SJW nonsense.

So that probably makes me "alt-right" as well..

 

[Schrödinger's cat]

Just as a massive generalisation, I find western indie devs to be utter prima donnas, with occasional exceptions like Thomas Happ. They want to be stars, not make games.

This too is a generalisation.

I think the question to be asked is "Did you become a game developer to make games, or to express a message?"

I have no issue with games used as allegories (Papers Please) or that can be morally ambiguous (Shadow of the Colossus).
I believe games are uniquely positioned, due to their interactivity, to make a stronger impression on the player than a non-interactive medium.

But if it's all about the message and the game itself is secondary to that - and you, as a developer, position yourself in the same way - then I would question if you are making games for others, or just for yourself.

 

[Teslerum]

Most dont have a grasp on history, or the abject misery most people lived in once civilisation became a thing. I had one professor explain how he loved egyptology so much as a youth and was so disillusioned in his first physical archeology uni class where the prof went over what the bone remains told us about the lives and health of 99% of ancient Egyptians (men, women, children) and how they were treated by the powers that were, he almost changed areas. It is genuinely horrific. Pop history of his youth did not prepare him for that.

Anyone that thinks men had it any better than women except for the one percent of the one percent don't know shit. Civilisation was a mistake.

.....

That's.... if you view everything under the lens of the 21st century. The problem is that's insulting in itself. If you talk about old egypt, if you talk about the 1900's, if you talk about.... whatever time period you're talking about you have to do so by taking a step back and not judge by your own preconceptions of how life should be.

That's not fair to history as its not fair to humanity. We don't live in a perfect world, we don't live in a magical land where you snap your fingers and everythings ok. Society has to go through changes. It's not like EVERYTHING was bad in those times either. And we tend to overlook that by making sweeping general statements, A vast maority of Men didn't go around constantly raping their wives a hunderd years ago either. Nor didn't women have zero power without voting rights. History is complex by our very nature.

 

[Halo is Back]

This too is a generalisation.

I think the question to be asked is "Did you become a game developer to make games, or to express a message?"

I have no issue with games used as allegories (Papers Please) or that can be morally ambiguous (Shadow of the Colossus).
I believe games are uniquely positioned, due to their interactivity, to make a stronger impression on the player than a non-interactive medium.

But if it's all about the message and the game itself is secondary to that - and you, as a developer, position yourself in the same way - then I would question if you are making games for others, or just for yourself.

I think most indie deva just want to makes cool games. However there will always be shit heads like Phill Phish

 

[Hypereides]

For the WizardChan incident I would recommend reading through this old Gaf thread from 2013. I want to make a couple of things clear though about the incident:
1. The thread was deleted as soon as Zoe went live with her claims. There is no archive to prove their innocence

(...)

That's partially true. I've noticed an image circulating around that seems to corroborate the validity of the incident. That said, it is unfortunate there doesn't exist an archive.

 

[hariseldon]

Don't forget Eastern Europe - lots of good stuff coming from them (Witcher 3 and Kingdom Come Deliverance being prime examples).

 

[the Guynecologist]

That's partially true. I've noticed an image circulating around that seems to corroborate the validity of the incident. That said, it is unfortunate there doesn't exist an archive.

Yes but it's worth noting that the only proof of Wizardchan harassing Zoe were two screenshots taken by Zoe herself. No proof of anyone calling her or of her phone number being leaked anywhere. Most people however didn't think anything of it at the time. The few who accused her of doing it to herself (as seen in the thread I posted) were mostly shot down because, well, her game is free.

 

[Halo is Back]

Found this interesting interview from just searching people talking about her.

Ironic for someone who fights online harassment. in the end she uses a social media platform with thousands of fans to defame someone who already apologized to her years ago.

 

[ExpandKong]

Found this interesting interview from just searching people talking about her.

Ironic for someone who fights online harassment. in the end she uses a social media platform with thousands of fans to defame someone who already apologized to her years ago.

She looks exactly like the type of woman you’d expect to drive a guy to suicide and then make it about her.

 

[the Guynecologist]

That's partially true. I've noticed an image circulating around that seems to corroborate the validity of the incident. That said, it is unfortunate there doesn't exist an archive.

Actually since you seem to want an archive of some of this stuff I'm going to give it you: here's the thread where Zoe Quinn allegedly got hacked by 4chan. I've gone through it and there doesn't seem to be any doxx information - that was all on her tumblr. NSFW obviously because 4chan. This thread was also up at the same time however the first link contains the infamous I HAVE HACKED ZOE QUINN post. It's a bit of a long read but enjoy. This took a very long time to find.

 

[Robot Carnival]

had not been paying attention on this whole thing and didn't find out about the whole drama until just a little while ago. first of all, it's really unfortunate that the guy killed himself for this. second of all, and I'm sorry if I offend anyone on this, but I will never call someone "they" just because of some sort of self identity thing. if you don't like being refer to as he or she, make up something else then. it's a language thing and that's not debatable. and finally, I feel that all this can be avoided if the young lady only contacted the parties involve private and directly. the guy, the company he work with etc. take care of this privately, since I feel this is a very private matter. condolences to the deceased and his family. may he rest in peace.

 

[Shmunter]

Slightly to of to the side, but relevant...Andy Signore’s Cancel cancel culture...