Zoe Quinn #meToo / Alec Holowka suicide -- Update: Article questions ZQ's account of events (link in OP)

Miku Miku

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I'm wondering if Anita Sarkeesian is actually try to get away from Zoe Quinn right now, as everything start to actually go against them
Anita will do pretty much anything for attention. Her channel is a ghost town. She will even trash CDProjekt Red, and then ask for consulting work in the very next tweet.
 

GorillaChilla

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This is why “always believe the victim” is horrible. I’m not saying women are evil liars but humans will lie. Telling lies is something that we as a species do. These lies have led to the death of an innocent man. But the people that outright believed those lies and treated them as truth without any evidence are just as guilty as the liar herself.
 

the Guynecologist

Formerly 'theguynecologist'
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Kiwifarms appears to be experiencing serious errors. It's worth noting that Zoe's thread there was the source of the twitter screenshots from the Post-Millennial's article. Whether or not this is connected or an unrelated fuck-up is yet to be established.
 

Doomtrain

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This is why “always believe the victim” is horrible. I’m not saying women are evil liars but humans will lie. Telling lies is something that we as a species do. These lies have led to the death of an innocent man. But the people that outright believed those lies and treated them as truth without any evidence are just as guilty as the liar herself.
Definitely. "Believe the victim" is circular logic. It pretends that we know who the victim is to begin with. It could be that the person who came forward is the victim, or it could be that they're lying, in which case the accused is now a victim of malicious slander. The truth is, most of us don't directly know the people involved in these cases, and most of us don't have the intimate details needed to make an informed decision about what's true and what isn't. Anybody who claims to know who the true victim is, but doesn't have those details, is a liar.

Should accusations be taken seriously? Personally, I think they should be. There's a kernel of truth to all of this, which is that it often IS hard to provide evidence even in cases where genuine abuse happened. That sucks, and I think it's worth trying to fix. But "taking something seriously" doesn't mean "make snap judgements based on the genitalia of the people involved". "Taking something seriously" involves putting in the time and effort to properly investigate. Proponents of "listen and believe" don't take accusations of sexual misconduct seriously. They treat them flippantly.
 

Halo is Dead

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This is why “always believe the victim” is horrible. I’m not saying women are evil liars but humans will lie. Telling lies is something that we as a species do. These lies have led to the death of an innocent man. But the people that outright believed those lies and treated them as truth without any evidence are just as guilty as the liar herself.
Shitty women give a bad name to the actual victims of abuse. These evil women took advantage of #metoo for their own personal gain/revenge
 

Arun1910

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So, given that the Post Millenial article is a good source of debunking claims, we can sort of set up a timeline from sources.
Luckily, I'm one of those nerds that likes data, structures and tables.

ROUGH DATEZOE'S CLAIMSPOST MILLENNIAL FINDINGSCONCLUSION
PRE-MARCH 2012 (Zoe goes on to say this she meets Alec "one month after the assault", so we can place this around about February-ish)Abuse from an Unnamed Assailant [zoe notes: paragraph 2 & 3]No comment in the PM article on thisNo conclusion - zoe doesn't name this abuser, and quickly mentions that "this isn't about him. I've forgiven him." We can ignore this claim, for now for the purpose of this Alec case. PM doesn't mention it.
START OF MARCH 2012Give that Zoe's notes gives us a rough date of the previous abuse at Feburary, she meets Alec "one month later", placing that around march. We can conclude that they start chatting around here.PM found multiple snippets from a podcast in which Zoe goes on to explain how she met alec, via DMs on twatter.
MARCH 2012Zoe doesn't specify when she gears up to go to Winnpeg to live with Alec in the zoe notes source.PM found, from archived tweets, that Zoe was preparing to go to Winnipeg around MarchWe can conclude that Zoe prepared to leave Toronto for Winnipeg in March
MARCH END / APRIL START 2012As above, zoe doesn't specify when she moves to WinnipegUsing dozens of archived tweets from Zoe's twitter, PM very reliably places the move date around this timeWe can conclude that Zoe moves from Toronto to Winnipeg around the start of April (if not the end of March)
APRIL START TO MID APRIL 2012During this period, zoe claims a bulk of things done by Alec in the zoe notes [paragraph 7] Part of Zoe's claims during this period is that Alec isolated her and locked her away from the 3 unnamed friends during this period.Around this time, Zoe and Alec appear together on a Podcast, explaining how they met on twitter, their relationship, and their project Not Ok Cupid (never released). Obviously, no mention of abuse happens on the podcast. Alec mentions that he spent some time on OK Cupid before meeting zoe. Hence the project. There are dozens and dozens of tweets detailing their time through-out april in Winnipeg. Including arranging a meet-up, shopping, and so on.We can conclude that Alec probably did not shut Zoe away and isolate her, at least for the most part, because they often tweeted about their movements. Assuming the tweets are true, for now.

NOTE: There's alot of say-so about Alec's mental instability (including gossip of his own posted in 2016). We can assume that he wasn't very stable. We can probably assume that the relationship wasn't all that easy, either.
MID APRIL 2012This is around the time (2 weeks later) that zoe would of moved back to Winnipeg after staying with Alec, as they supposedly agreed, according to the zoe notes source [zoe notes: paragraph 3] Zoe would by the ticket there, Alec would by her the ticket back. They were supposed to live in an "indie house" with 3 others (unnamed) this was what they agreed pre-zoe's-departure. She would claim to stay for a full monthThere's no real mention of the 2 week plan in the PM article.We can conclude that she definitely stayed longer than two weeks. What's debatable here is: was that the original plan? Was the "two week" plan a lie?
END OF APRIL/ MAY START 2012This is probably around where Zoe claims to have come back (one month later) using air miles provided to her by a friend, since Alec refused to buy her a flight back as they previously agreed. She claims to have flown back with no mention of other travels. As if escaping.The PM article has screencaps of a tweet dated May 2nd, that details a going to a Winnipeg meet up, then going to Montreal and Toronto (she heads to Toronto on the 4th)By Zoe's tweet, we can conclude that she did travel back to Toronto around a month later. She PROBABLY didn't use a friend's air miles to escape Winnipeg, as she obviously travelled to Montreal as well.
MAY 10th 2012-Is the last known tweet between Alec and Zoe, as detailed in the PM articleI can't conclude much here, apart from they stopped communicating. Could be because of the "amiable break up email" Zoe claimed to have sent after arriving back in Toronto
POST MAY 10th 2012In the zoe notes, she claims that here Alec "banned her from an indie gaming community he ran, banned himself, asked other industry leaders to help him commit suicide"None of this is detailed in the PM Article. But it does mention Alec's mental instability, and other people agreeing that he was suicidal.We can conclude that Alec is capable of lashing out like this given a history of instability.
We can perhaps conclude that the "community" in question is the indie meetup they arranged together called Windiepeg.
GAMERGATE START (earliest account, August 2014 ish, but we don't know what Zoe regards as the start of GG)Zoe claims that multiple people came forward with claims of Alec's abusive behaviour.No mention of this in PM.We can conclude here that, using evidence of Alec's instability, that perhaps some people did contact Zoe about his behaviour. The 3 unnamed friends or one of the ~38 devs attending Windiepeg would be viable candidates
August 28th 2019 (now)Zoe's statement about Alec's alleged abuse. Multiple people back her up in variable degrees, such as Laurie Pennie, and the other devs of Night in the Woods, to a very small degree Alec's sister alsoDuring this phase, Zoe deletes her twitter account only to reactivate it days later as "protected", someone archives lots of tweets and feeds them to PM, as part of the article. The article mentions that many tweets around the period specified in this timeline was DELETED, but managed to get screencapped in a video, sent to PM as part of the article.Alec commits suicide some time after. The vast majority of games news outlets just mention "died"; being unusually respectful. Zoe goes into twitter damage control, deleting tweets from the period with Alec, but she's too slow. The two other devs also delete their accounts, perhaps for the same reason. Though now their accounts are back online [1] [2]

CONCLUDING...
Given the timeline above: I think Quinn moved to Winnipeg to be with Alec and work on Not OK Cupid. I dont think they planned on it just being a 2 week period. I think they had a rough relationship while there, due to Zoe being a megalomaniac and Alec being quite unstable. I think Zoe's claims are inflated, as she is a serial liar. But I don't think it was a very nice relationship. I think Zoe scrounging air miles from a friend to escape is a lie, she returned as part of broader travel. Not OK Cupid was not finished, probably due to Zoe's breaking up with Alec due to email, which he did not take well (as expected). Why did Zoe inflate her claims? Apart from the usual filter of exaggeration and lies that comes with her, I don't think there was a profit motivation. It was more than likely because she wanted to be a part of a bigger, more dramatic narrative of her time in Winnipeg. I think she has a deep issue with trying to see more rough-n-tough than she actually is. I don't think she specifically knew Alec would kill himself and it was a huge shock (as it should be.)

She is actually asshole-to-elbow deep in lies she can't spin quick enough. Like trying to lay down track as she's speeding along.

P.s.
If you're journalist reading this table don't use it, make your own timeline using the same sources plus more, then compared the accounts. This took me a little under an hour... It's your day job. At least until your supervisor has to axe you because the public don't want to read about opinions from 30k-a-year-self-loathing-spin-doctor who's never set foot in an actual work-force.

P.s.s
If there are issues with the timeline, feel free to copypasta it with adjustments! If I have missed someone, or a date is wrong etc, then fix it. It's open to investigation.
Thanks for this. Couldn't keep up with 59 pages.
 

Whitecrow

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Zoe Quinn is the embodiment of shame for every women in the world, equality is deserved when you want it for everyone, she doesn't want that kind of equality.
or at least when what you want is equality and not money...
 

Barakov

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Anita will do pretty much anything for attention. Her channel is a ghost town. She will even trash CDProjekt Red, and then ask for consulting work in the very next tweet.
Yeah, her concern trolling at this point has no effect on anybody because pretty much the entire internet is wise to her bullshit.
 

mcjmetroid

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"It's OK when WE do it, becuse we're the Good guys", see doxxing, Twitter Mobs, Review Bombing etc.
Seems strange like these guys are obviously very smart individuals to take down a website like that yet... They can't seem to think for themselves on any number of issues.

They're a fascinating bunch. Fancy words and labels but at the end of the day it's Monkey-See Monkey-Do.
 
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Hypereides

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Kiwifarms appears to be experiencing serious errors. It's worth noting that Zoe's thread there was the source of the twitter screenshots from the Post-Millennial's article. Whether or not this is connected or an unrelated fuck-up is yet to be established.
Kiwifarms is controversial, But I doubt this is a coincidence.

People should really start archiving every piece of relevant material.
 
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the Guynecologist

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Coincidence? My gut says no on this one. Keep a look out EviLore EviLore
Kiwifarms is controversial, But I doubt this is a coincidence.

People should really start archiving every piece of relevant material.
In fairness KF has pissed off a lot of people over the years (including the entire country of New Zealand at one point) so it could be anyone. Still the timing is suspicious.
 

Scopa

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Kiwifarms appears to be experiencing serious errors. It's worth noting that Zoe's thread there was the source of the twitter screenshots from the Post-Millennial's article. Whether or not this is connected or an unrelated fuck-up is yet to be established.
Not sure if it’s legit, but I read on Reddit that apparently Kiwifarms was hacked somehow and they stole user data and private chat data. The owner took the site down until he figures out what happened.

Chances of this being Zoe Quinn related pretty high in my estimate. If Candace Owens story is true also, Zoe Quinn seems to have an army of willing hackz0rs at her fingertips (Probably a 13 year old boy using his mum’s computer trading hacks for nudes).
 

Saruhashi

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I just don't understand how, or why, she has so much clout in the videogame industry and it's surrounding communities?

We are talking about a developer with just a single notable game to their name. Even then, the quality and validity of "Depression Quest" as a game is arguable. We're not talking an indie smash like Super Meat Boy or Shovel Knight etc here. Her last, and only, notable contribution to gaming was an obscure game, 5 years ago.

In terms of the relationship between publicity and clout to volume of actual videogame output it just seems weird that this is a person who is out there as some kind of "pop star" game developer.

Fair enough if she loves the spotlight and many indie devs don't like to put themselves out there but even then I just don't see how she gets the time of day when she hasn't really done anything of note.

I don't feel like if there was some big scandal involving a higher up at Ubisoft or Bethesda etc then it would be covered up so eagerly by people within the community. Even though those would be the people you'd expect to have the ability to wield serious power.

Is it just because the industry wants to be seen as welcoming to female developers etc and so this open and over the top display of white knighting is actually serving some "greater good" in their minds?

Maybe, to some extent, we are responsible too by having a 59 page thread on the subject?
 

Arimer

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I just don't understand how, or why, she has so much clout in the videogame industry and it's surrounding communities?

We are talking about a developer with just a single notable game to their name. Even then, the quality and validity of "Depression Quest" as a game is arguable. We're not talking an indie smash like Super Meat Boy or Shovel Knight etc here. Her last, and only, notable contribution to gaming was an obscure game, 5 years ago.

In terms of the relationship between publicity and clout to volume of actual videogame output it just seems weird that this is a person who is out there as some kind of "pop star" game developer.

Fair enough if she loves the spotlight and many indie devs don't like to put themselves out there but even then I just don't see how she gets the time of day when she hasn't really done anything of note.

I don't feel like if there was some big scandal involving a higher up at Ubisoft or Bethesda etc then it would be covered up so eagerly by people within the community. Even though those would be the people you'd expect to have the ability to wield serious power.

Is it just because the industry wants to be seen as welcoming to female developers etc and so this open and over the top display of white knighting is actually serving some "greater good" in their minds?

Maybe, to some extent, we are responsible too by having a 59 page thread on the subject?
Easy, She connected with the right people. The journalists. They believe what she does and they also do that women are powerful but must be protected at all costs believe women stuff. Now she's got the middle man in her pocket that controls info and most people will naturally protect their friends. Now those that know her are using the backroom channels to tell others don't believe what you hear, trust me, how long have we been in this industry together? And couple that with the implied threat of any business that decides to step into this will be bad mouthed forever by us. Basically connections upon connections. Remember what really started it was all the other sites shutting down discussion of it. You don't think the reddit mods of games have any interest in getting into journalism? You don't think they were contacted? What about the old shitty mods here at neogaf?

Remember, she also had eron shut down with a gag order under a pending lawsuit so there goes any counter info.

When you can get into the group that disseminates information both ways then you can easily take more power than you could by yourself.
 
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AV

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May 31, 2018
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I'm just here to post recent pertinent Tool lyrics.

Heat lighting flash, but don't blink
Misleading
Tranquility ruse
You're gonna happen again
That's what I think
Follow the evidence
Look it dead in the eye
You are darkness
Trying to lull us in, before the havoc begins
Into a dubious state of serenity
Acting all surprised when you're caught in the lie

We know better
It's not unlike you
We know your nature

Blame it all on the bastards when you're blowing out
Shame on you, shame on you, now
No amount of wind could to begin to cover up your petulant stench and demeanor
Calm as cookies and cream, so it seems
We're not buying your dubious state of serenity
Acting all surprised when you're caught in the lie

We know better
It's not unlike you
We know your nature

Calm before the torrent comes
Calm before the tempest comes to reign all over
Disputing intentions invites devastation
A tempest must be true to its nature

Control, your delusion
Insane and striking at random
Victim of your certainty
And therefore your doubt's not an option
Blameless, the tempest must will be just that
So try as you may, feeble, your attempt to atone
Your words to erase all the damage cannot

A tempest must be just that
A tempest must be just that
A tempest must be just that
A tempest must be just that
 
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TheContact

Formerly 'TesUsa'
Jan 22, 2016
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Not sure if it’s legit, but I read on Reddit that apparently Kiwifarms was hacked somehow and they stole user data and private chat data. The owner took the site down until he figures out what happened.

Chances of this being Zoe Quinn related pretty high in my estimate. If Candace Owens story is true also, Zoe Quinn seems to have an army of willing hackz0rs at her fingertips (Probably a 13 year old boy using his mum’s computer trading hacks for nudes).
Another pathological liar. I wouldn't trust anything this shill has to say and we definitely don't need her testimony to know that Zoe has serious mental health issues with wanting to be abused based on how many people have "attempted to rape her"
 

Scopa

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Another pathological liar. I wouldn't trust anything this shill has to say and we definitely don't need her testimony to know that Zoe has serious mental health issues with wanting to be abused based on how many people have "attempted to rape her"
I haven’t kept up on Candace. What has she lied about?
 

infinitys_7th

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Coincidence? My gut says no on this one. Keep a look out EviLore EviLore
Both the Vic Mignogna stuff and the Chelsea Van Valkenburg aka "Zoe" "Tiberius" "Quinn" have blown up over the past couple weeks. I could see it being a KickViccer, mad over all the damage done to the Sabat clique, who wanted to find and leak evidence that Vic was somehow using KF to attack wamyns. Of course, Chelsea has a reason to hide things as well, or to get dirt on people to try to blackmail them.
 

infinitys_7th

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Easy, She connected with the right people. The journalists. They believe what she does and they also do that women are powerful but must be protected at all costs believe women stuff.
I am starting to question just how many of them are sincere we know that Zoe has probably banged half of these people, and that she exaggerates and lies about interactions with people for sympathy.

What if she has been going around and asking these men to be rough with her (slap her, degrade her, etc ) and then uses that to blackmail them?
 
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Halo is Dead

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Another pathological liar. I wouldn't trust anything this shill has to say and we definitely don't need her testimony to know that Zoe has serious mental health issues with wanting to be abused based on how many people have "attempted to rape her"
She dose not want the abuse she just wants the attention, validation, and sympathy
 

Halo is Dead

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I am starting to question just how many of them are sincere we know that Zoe has probably banged half of these people, and that she exaggerates and lies about interactions with people for sympathy.

What if she has been going around and asking these men to be rough with her (slap her, degrade her, etc ) and then uses that to blackmail them?
My guess is she uses it for leverage and as we saw with Alec she can weaponize it later. Mabye that’s why they are so submissive of her idk🤷🏻‍♂️
 
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Hypereides

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Easy, She connected with the right people. The journalists. They believe what she does and they also do that women are powerful but must be protected at all costs believe women stuff. Now she's got the middle man in her pocket that controls info and most people will naturally protect their friends. Now those that know her are using the backroom channels to tell others don't believe what you hear, trust me, how long have we been in this industry together? And couple that with the implied threat of any business that decides to step into this will be bad mouthed forever by us. Basically connections upon connections. Remember what really started it was all the other sites shutting down discussion of it. You don't think the reddit mods of games have any interest in getting into journalism? You don't think they were contacted? What about the old shitty mods here at neogaf?

Remember, she also had eron shut down with a gag order under a pending lawsuit so there goes any counter info.

When you can get into the group that disseminates information both ways then you can easily take more power than you could by yourself.
There definitely seems to be some kind of mutual relationship in the middle of this. However, I speculate that she's also being used as figurative shield to deflect any criticism directed at the gaming media. All these actions to protect her reputation at every cost seem so surreal.
 
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cormack12

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To touch on the KF stuff, the journalist who originally dropped the contrary account and questionable timeline was posting there at the time which lends more weight to the raised eyebrow of the timing.
 

Xenon

Member
Except one is playing the victim while the other pushing politics. One is a leech the other a soldier.
 

Enjay

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Feb 18, 2009
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I just don't understand how, or why, she has so much clout in the videogame industry and it's surrounding communities?

We are talking about a developer with just a single notable game to their name. Even then, the quality and validity of "Depression Quest" as a game is arguable. We're not talking an indie smash like Super Meat Boy or Shovel Knight etc here. Her last, and only, notable contribution to gaming was an obscure game, 5 years ago.

In terms of the relationship between publicity and clout to volume of actual videogame output it just seems weird that this is a person who is out there as some kind of "pop star" game developer.

Fair enough if she loves the spotlight and many indie devs don't like to put themselves out there but even then I just don't see how she gets the time of day when she hasn't really done anything of note.

I don't feel like if there was some big scandal involving a higher up at Ubisoft or Bethesda etc then it would be covered up so eagerly by people within the community. Even though those would be the people you'd expect to have the ability to wield serious power.

Is it just because the industry wants to be seen as welcoming to female developers etc and so this open and over the top display of white knighting is actually serving some "greater good" in their minds?

Maybe, to some extent, we are responsible too by having a 59 page thread on the subject?
She took a lot of virginities in this industry.
 

Knivess

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First post here, been reading the thread here for awhile though, seems to be one of the few places online where you can have a reasonable discussion on the subject.

Obliviousness on reee is beyond belief, hell they just had a cancel culture thread debating whether it even existed, seemed beyond them that there might be any irony in what they were all saying. Even had the audacity to bring up Etika as though his death was nothing to do with them.
 

RokkanStoned

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How Salem circa 1692 would have dealt with ZQ.

There were no witches, at best in a few cases some white magic users, people practicing traditional healing "magic" (which in Northern Norway lead to a lot of male Sami people being killed because of their spiritual beliefs), but not witches per se.. But there were disgruntled people that casted suspicions on their neighbours, especially people they didn't like, or who were different (I imagine some with mental disabilities were hit by it as well). Once someone got accused, they got tortured until they admitted it and until they named new "witches", leading to more processes. So ZQ would be more like the accusers driving the witch hunts. Though she might've ended like that, as I believe some fervent accusers also ended up getting burned.
 
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infinitys_7th

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So Kiwi Farms is back up, and according to Null the hack was very "shallow" and targeted cached, relatively recent data from user accounts.

From my own timeline, it seems to have happened hours after The Post Millenial author of the piece on Chelsea responded to an "@" call out in Chelsea's thread. Definitely makes it seem more likely to be some Chelsea orbiter trying to dox her enemies.

Hopefully the author was using a VPN and a throwaway email.
 
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Knivess

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So Kiwi Farms is back up, and according to Null the hack was very "shallow" and targeted cached, relatively recent data from user accounts.

From my own timeline, it seems to have happened hours after The Post Millenial author of the piece on Chelsea responded to an "@" call out in Chelsea's thread. Definitely makes it seem more likely to be some Chelsea orbiter trying to dox her enemies.

Hopefully the author was using a VPN and a throwaway email.
For sure, even given the amount of people KF has pissed off, the timing in relation to that Post Millenial author is too much of a coincidence for me. Also seems like the author of that piece was a user at KF.
 

infinitys_7th

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For sure, even given the amount of people KF has pissed off, the timing in relation to that Post Millenial author is too much of a coincidence for me. Also seems like the author of that piece was a user at KF.
That's what I was talking about. I don't know forum systems, but I think KF has the same base as GAF does - similar format, users can respond with different custom reactions, etc., and KF users can call other users with " U username " just like here.

Someone @'d the author yesterday, and she logged in and responded. A few hours later the attack happened. Because the attack targets cached data which is (presumably) deleted at regular intervals, they only had a certain window to attack to get the author's data.

It seems like this was planned by someone who had already scoped out KF's vulnerability and had a goal in mind, as the data targeted is relatively specific. My guess is they wanted to get the author's IP to figure out where she lives.