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Future Foundation · May 1, 2015

So, there's an article that's been floating in and out of my timeline regarding an e-mail Ike Perlmutter sent to Michael Lynton of Sony:

Such as one from the 7th August 2014, with Marvel CEO Ike Perlmutter talking to Sonys Michael Lynton, in an e-mail titled Female Heroes. We dont know the conversation on the phone, but the e-mail gives us some indication of how Perlmutter was thinking.

Michael,

As we discussed on the phone, below are just a few examples. There are more.

Thanks,

Ike

1. Electra (Marvel) Very bad idea and the end result was very, very bad. http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=elektra.htm

2. Catwoman (WB/DC) Catwoman was one of the most important female character within the Batmanfranchise. This film was a disaster. http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=catwoman.htm

3. Supergirl (DC) Supergirl was one of the most important female super hero in Superman franchise. This Movie came out in 1984 and did $14 million total domestic with opening weekend of $5.5 million. Again, another disaster.
Best,
Ike

Of course, we did get the greenlight for Captain Marvel over at Marvel Studios, but this does reveal very strong fears about, say, a Spider-Woman or Spider-Girl movie.

One important fact about these Wikileaks, we often get incomplete conversations. Worth bearing in mind.

The article itself is a bit old (April 17th), but it's picked up a bit of steam today because someone sent it to director Lexi Alexander, who's been talking/going off about it for a while now. I figured since we have a very...lively group of fans/observers, and the topic of female heroes comes up a lot, that I'd share. I bolded the thing about incomplete conversations because it is important to keep context in mind.

PhoncipleBone · May 1, 2015

Future Foundation said:
So, there's an article that's been floating in and out of my timeline regarding an e-mail Ike Perlmutter sent to Michael Lynton of Sony:

The article itself is a bit old (April 17th), but it's picked up a bit of steam today because someone sent it to director Lexi Alexander, who's been talking/going off about it for a while now. I figured since we have a very...lively group of fans/observers, and the topic of female heroes comes up a lot, that I'd share. I bolded the thing about incomplete conversations because it is important to keep context in mind.

Well, he is correct in that all the films listed were bad.

George Oscar Bluth II · May 1, 2015

The films are bad, though.

If he really is against having a female lead superhero film, then he'll have his fears proven wrong once Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman are hopefully good and successful.

DeathyBoy · May 1, 2015

I still say not doing a Black Widow film was idiotic.

I mean even if the context for those e-mails is 'female superhero films don't sell', they could do a Black Widow film relatively cheaply. And it's not like it wouldn't make a tidy profit AFTER The Avengers set up how vital BW is to The Avengers.

But no...

Van Owen · May 1, 2015

Posting this private stuff is pretty scummy. I'm not even sure why this forum allows private correspondence that was illegally stolen to be posted considering it's pretty anal about everything else. These emails aren't exposing some government evil that the public deserves to know about.

Oppo · May 1, 2015

Guys. These three absolutely terrible films did poorly. WHAT NOW.

davepoobond · May 1, 2015

They greenlit agent carter and it was good, but didnt it have terrible ratings?

Neoxon · May 1, 2015

If I recall, each of those examples were bad movies.

Watch Captain Marvel be good & buck the trend. Hell, Agent Carter was awesome.

AkuMifune · May 1, 2015

Better not do a Captain America film either, those didn't perform well.

Razgriz-Specter · May 1, 2015

DeathyBoy said:
I still say not doing a Black Widow film was idiotic.

Eh, Winter Soldier kinda stole her niche.

razgriz417 · May 1, 2015

bad movies do bad at the box office? who knew?

That being said I swear to god if they fuck up Captain Marvel...

wenis · May 1, 2015

Whoa, this stuff won't get taken out of context at all. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail, but I doubt it.

davepoobond said:
They greenlit agent carter and it was good, but didnt it have terrible ratings?

I believe it started strong but then viewership drop off was quick. It didn't bode well for female hero led productions. Who knows tho.

DeathyBoy · May 1, 2015

Razgriz-Specter said:
Eh, Winter Soldier kinda stole her niche.

Winter Soldier was amazing. But they could've done a Black Widow film post Avengers and pulled it off.

Penguin · May 1, 2015

Bad movies

do terrible at the box office should be the lesson.

Not that female heroes are risky.

Kaiterra · May 1, 2015

AkuMifune said:
Better not do a Captain America film either, those didn't perform well.

Boom, nailed it.

I like using Elektra and Catwoman as examples because those are not just bad movies but terrible portrayals of the characters to begin with. Especially Catwoman holy crap.

kirblar · May 1, 2015

Based on what Ivysaur's said, I'm worried about the quality on Jessica Jones, actually. Hopefully it turns out well.

Neoxon · May 1, 2015

DeathyBoy said:
I still say not doing a Black Widow film was idiotic.

I mean even if the context for those e-mails is 'female superhero films don't sell', they could do a Black Widow film relatively cheaply. And it's not like it wouldn't make a tidy profit AFTER The Avengers set up how vital BW is to The Avengers.

But no...

Marvel likely wanted to make a bigger splash with their first female lead.

Spider from Mars · May 1, 2015

AkuMifune said:
Better not do a Captain America film either, those didn't perform well.

Best scene in any superhero film

El Topo · May 1, 2015

I don't think I need to comment on some part taken out of context, but would anyone be shocked about this given the movie industry?

kirblar said:
Based on what Ivysaur's said, I'm worried about the quality on Jessica Jones, actually. Hopefully it turns out well.

Wait, what? Where?

Kuroyume · May 1, 2015

davepoobond said:
They greenlit agent carter and it was good, but didnt it have terrible ratings?

Yes, very lousy ratings.

AkuMifune said:
Better not do a Captain America film either, those didn't perform well.

That doesn't even make any sense.

DeathyBoy · May 1, 2015

Neoxon said:
Marvel likely wanted to make a bigger splash with their first female lead.

Maybe. But a Black Widow film post Avengers? That's doing 500 million, at the very least. Pretty big splash.

anaron · May 1, 2015

from what I've gathered from all the news in the last month is Marvel wants to do female superheroes and Disney doesn't.

so, fuck Disney.

Toa TAK · May 1, 2015

Those movies were awful no doubt, but I think getting the material to the right people is what'll help. Shit, look at Ben Affleck's Daredevil, that character just became the best damn media in the MCU. So while I get the concern, it shouldn't be a problem if the movie is marketed well, and it actually a decent flick (right?)

davepoobond said:
They greenlit agent carter and it was good, but didnt it have terrible ratings?

Don't remind me.

anaron said:
from what I've gathered from all the news in the last month is Marvel wants to do female superheroes and Disney doesn't.

so, fuck Disney.

They probably just want more princesses.

Razgriz-Specter · May 1, 2015

DeathyBoy said:
Winter Soldier was amazing. But they could've done a Black Widow film post Avengers and pulled it off.

Definitely but if they had WS layout for a good while they made a decent choice letting that type on movie be carried by Cap with Widow as a co-star.

Widow movie would have been best pre-Avengers.
Depends what they are aiming for with Civil War, Widow couldn't be too close to WS or CW yet MCU is going to really be shaken up afterwards though.

StalkerUKCG · May 1, 2015

Penguin said:
Bad movies

do terrible at the box office should be the lesson.

Not that female heroes are risky.

Obviously, However selling people on a female superhero isn't easy when history shows how bad they CAN be.

Wonder Woman has real potential to carry a movie on the strength and public mindshare of her character alone.

Captain Marvel is arguably the riskiest move Marvel can make.

Bobby Roberts · May 1, 2015

Van Owen said:
Posting this private stuff is pretty scummy.

If they didn't want their private emails posted on NeoGAF they'd have placed them in a print gaming publication, ensuring nobody could ever link to an image scan of their sacred words.

BigDes · May 1, 2015

Considering how it has taken off I am not sure that a Spider-Gwen movie would be a huge risk

anaron · May 1, 2015

StalkerUKCG said:
Obviously, However selling people on a female superhero isn't easy when history shows how bad they CAN be.

Wonder Woman has real potential to carry a movie on the strength and public mindshare of her character alone.

Captain Marvel is arguably the riskiest move Marvel can make.

it's really not.

PhoncipleBone · May 1, 2015

Spider from Mars said:
Best scene in any superhero film

LOL. What the hell? I still have never brought myself to watch that film.

DeathyBoy · May 1, 2015

anaron said:
from what I've gathered from all the news in the last month is Marvel wants to do female superheroes and Disney doesn't.

so, fuck Disney.

So you're saying Disney, post Frozen, doesn't want to do a film about a female with superpowers?

I'm sorry, that is absurd. Frozen is pretty much a Marvel film in all but studio. And made an absolute fortune while tapping into the female market in a way that is still staggering. Disney would jump all over that shit from Marvel, if Marvel would get the ball rolling a bit quicker than 2018.

kirblar · May 1, 2015

El Topo said:
Wait, what? Where?

Threads a while back when the people were being assigned. ABC had a deal with the showrunner that still had X shows/years left on it and they put her on the series. He hadn't been a fan of her previous work.

anaron · May 1, 2015

Toa TAK said:
Those movies were awful no doubt, but I think getting the material to the right people is what'll help. Shit, look at Ben Affleck's Daredevil, that character just became the best damn media in the MCU. So while I get the concern, it shouldn't be a problem if the movie is marketed well, and it actually a decent flick (right?)

Don't remind me.

They probably just want more princesses.

That's actually what's been confirmed.

Anonymous Marvel insiders have said as much, that their princess line is for the girls money and that marvel is the reach out to boys.

Idiots.

OctoMan · May 1, 2015

Unless I'm reading incorrectly it just sounds like he's analyzing past films with female superhero leads. I don't get what's newsworthy here. Do people not expect them to do any market research when discussing ideas? Seems like very basic thoughts here and not even any outright rejection to ideas or sexist or anything like that.

Neoxon · May 1, 2015

DeathyBoy said:
Maybe. But a Black Widow film post Avengers? That's doing 500 million, at the very least. Pretty big splash.

Apparently Marvel sees Black Widow has a character who works better as a significant side character (much like how they see Hulk). And honestly, who would make a bigger splash. A spy who was previously brainwashed or an Air Force soldier who gains Kree DNA & becomes one of the most powerful heroes in the Marvel Universe?

DeathyBoy · May 1, 2015

Neoxon said:
Apparently Marvel sees Black Widow has a character who works better as a significant side character (much like how they see Hulk). And honestly, who would make a bigger splash. A spy who was previously brainwashed or an Air Force soldier who gains Kree DNA & becomes one of the most powerful heroes in the Marvel Universe?

Is it too much to ask for both?

Shit, have Black Widow investigate Chitauri technology with Carol's help (rookie Shield Agent) who gets superpowers via the tech or some nonsense. Two birds with one stone, and set-up for a solo Captain Marvel film.

Sephzilla · May 1, 2015

There's logic in his thought process, those three movies did not do good financially. Before you say "but those were bad movies though" let me remind you that Transformers movies make tons of coin, and are bad movies. All this being said, I'd hold off judgement on female superhero movies until we get one that gets good reviews.

Toa TAK · May 1, 2015

anaron said:
that's actually what's been confirmed.anonymous Marvel insiders have said as much, that their princess line is for the girls money and the marvel is the reach out to boys.

idiots.

Hopefully if Captain Marvel is a $uccess they'll think differently.

Anton Sugar · May 1, 2015

Still can't believe "female-led action movies can't succeed" is peddled around in Hollywood nowadays.

anaron · May 1, 2015

Neoxon said:
Apparently Marvel sees Black Widow has a character who works better as a significant side character (much like how they see Hulk). And honestly, who would make a bigger splash. A spy who was previously brainwashed or an Air Force soldier who gains Kree DNA & becomes one of the most powerful heroes in the Marvel Universe?

I think AoU illustrated how badly BW does need her own film. her screen time is limited enough and when she does get it, she has this weird Hulk romance forced in that did not feel organic

Neoxon · May 1, 2015

StalkerUKCG said:
Obviously, However selling people on a female superhero isn't easy when history shows how bad they CAN be.

Wonder Woman has real potential to carry a movie on the strength and public mindshare of her character alone.

Captain Marvel is arguably the riskiest move Marvel can make.

In a world where Guardians of the Galaxy got a movie (& delivered). Captain Marvel isn't nearly as big of a risk.

Zoolader · May 1, 2015

Spider from Mars said:
Best scene in any superhero film

Yo wtf ahaha. Can't wait to play as Captain America with mods in GTA 5.

PhoncipleBone · May 1, 2015

Anton Sugar said:
Still can't believe "female-led action movies can't succeed" is peddled around in Hollywood nowadays.

And to think, the email is from two weeks after Lucy opened in the USA, showing that a female lead action film (and an R rated one at that) could pull in money.

enzo_gt · May 1, 2015

Not looking forward to seeing this general presentation of facts spun into different narratives.

I'd like a date on this though, to see how far back Captain Marvel was green lit. Sounds like it was recent.

EDIT: Oh August. Yeah nothing new there then.

Kill3r7 · May 1, 2015

CEOs being risk averse is nothing new in any field of business. Both Marvel and DC will have female leads in a couple of years. They just want the deck to be stacked in their favor.

The Silver · May 1, 2015

Neoxon said:
In a world where Guardians of the Galaxy got a movie (& delivered). Captain Marvel isn't nearly as big of a risk.

I'd say it's a bigger risk in that GOTG had good proven stories to draw from where as Captain Marvel will pretty much have to be made from scratch.

John Kowalski · May 1, 2015

all this proves is women's discerning taste

PhoncipleBone · May 1, 2015

The Silver said:
I'd say it's a bigger risk in that GOTG had good proven stories to draw from where as Captain Marvel will pretty much have to be made from scratch.

And Black Panther as well. But he will be introduced in Civil War. Carol is most likely getting a cold open.

El Topo · May 1, 2015

kirblar said:
Threads a while back when the people were being assigned. ABC had a deal with the showrunner that still had X shows/years left on it and they put her on the series. He hadn't been a fan of her previous work.

Ah, okay. I feared some actual new (bad) rumors. Thanks.

Neoxon · May 1, 2015

DeathyBoy said:
Is it too much to ask for both?

Shit, have Black Widow investigate Chitauri technology with Carol's help (rookie Shield Agent) who gets superpowers via the tech or some nonsense. Two birds with one stone, and set-up for a solo Captain Marvel film.

That....actually would have been pretty legit.

anaron said:
I think AoU illustrated how badly BW does need her own film. her screen time is limited enough and when she does get it, she has this weird Hulk romance forced in that did not feel organic

I feel like some of the cut footage from the supposed extended cut would help with that. Plus I feel like Marvel wants to position Captain Marvel as their key female hero rather than Black Widow (basically they want Carol to be their Wonder Woman).

Toa TAK said:
Hopefully if Captain Marvel is a $uccess they'll think differently.

Wouldn't be surprising since Guardians helped pave the way for the return of space operas (which Star Wars will kick the door wide open for).

number47 · May 1, 2015

Bad movies do bad. What the hell was daredevils excuse.

Give me a time machine. I'm sure people would of appreciated a Xena movie.

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