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JoJo13 · Jun 8, 2009

Dibbz said:
Someone has probably already mentioned it but it just hit me today what Sony could be planning on doing.

I figure they will incorporate this new tech of theirs into a traditional controller eg Dualshock 3. The reason I think this is Sony created a patent for a breakable controller right?

I'd imagine there would be essentially a Sony Wand in either part of the controller essentially giving the player 2 wands that can be combined into a traditional controller or 2 seperate devices ala Wii mote and Nunchuk.

Fake Edit:- Well I just found this patent pic which is old but new to me.

Whatever they're doing I'm really interested in it. If you could essentially have a traditional controller which could transform into another device it would be the best of both worlds.

They just need to hide those damn massive balls attached to the controllers with some plastic or something.

I seriously hope that the next controller incorporates all of the previous DS3 functionality.

I can't really stress this enough, as it is pivotal to the success and acceptance of the device.

Sony isn't a stranger to making changes to their controllers; the Playstation 1 controller didn't have analog sticks at first. They added analog sticks later. That version didn't have rumble, I believe that came later. But the core functionality was still the same -- they just added new functionality. So every previous title was backwards compatible with whatever feature they added. And then the software developers added optional support for the new features.

They need to take the same approach with motion control. The next controller should NOT be just another 'Eye Toy' side peripheral; it needs to be the next STANDARD for the Playstation controller. And that means incorporating all previous functionality with the DS3 and merely adding 1:1 motion controls.

That way, in the future it will be easier to:

a) bundle it with the console itself if it can play all previous PS3 games, eventually transitioning away from the older DS3 (just like they did away with the SixAxis once rumble came back)

b) Give incentive for developers to support the device;

c) For users to USE the device and not switch back and forth between it and the previous controller.

If it does that, then I'm going to strictly use the motion controller instead of having to toggle between multiple devices. I may not use the motion control functionality for each game, but at least it will be flexible enough to handle games that I've played now and in years past.

I think that part is absolutely *CRITICAL* to the design of the final unit and its success, and it looks like they're going in that direction, and I certainly hope they are.

AranhaHunter · Jun 8, 2009

JoJo13 said:
I seriously hope that the next controller incorporates all of the previous DS3 functionality.

I can't really stress this enough, as it is pivotal to the success and acceptance of the device.

Sony isn't a stranger to making changes to their controllers; the Playstation 1 controller didn't have analog sticks at first. They added analog sticks later. That version didn't have rumble, I believe that came later. But the core functionality was still the same -- they just added new functionality. So every previous title was backwards compatible with whatever feature they added. And then the software developers added optional support for the new features.

They need to take the same approach with motion control. The next controller should NOT be just another 'Eye Toy' side peripheral; it needs to be the next STANDARD for the Playstation controller. And that means incorporating all previous functionality with the DS3 and merely adding 1:1 motion controls.

That way, in the future it will be easier to:

a) bundle it with the console itself if it can play all previous PS3 games, eventually transitioning away from the older DS3 (just like they did away with the SixAxis once rumble came back)

b) Give incentive for developers to support the device;

c) For users to USE the device and not switch back and forth between it and the previous controller.

If it does that, then I'm going to strictly use the motion controller instead of having to toggle between multiple devices. I may not use the motion control functionality for each game, but at least it will be flexible enough to handle games that I've played now and in years past.

I think that part is absolutely *CRITICAL* to the design of the final unit and its success, and it looks like they're going in that direction, and I certainly hope they are.

I think that's what will happen and will be bundled with the slim when it comes out in 2010, hopefully the DS3s will be on clearance if/when that happens so I can buy a couple of others

Gokurakumaru · Jun 8, 2009

JoJo13 said:
I seriously hope that the next controller incorporates all of the previous DS3 functionality.

I can't really stress this enough, as it is pivotal to the success and acceptance of the device.

Sony isn't a stranger to making changes to their controllers; the Playstation 1 controller didn't have analog sticks at first. They added analog sticks later. That version didn't have rumble, I believe that came later. But the core functionality was still the same -- they just added new functionality. So every previous title was backwards compatible with whatever feature they added. And then the software developers added optional support for the new features.

They need to take the same approach with motion control. The next controller should NOT be just another 'Eye Toy' side peripheral; it needs to be the next STANDARD for the Playstation controller. And that means incorporating all previous functionality with the DS3 and merely adding 1:1 motion controls.

That way, in the future it will be easier to:

a) bundle it with the console itself if it can play all previous PS3 games, eventually transitioning away from the older DS3 (just like they did away with the SixAxis once rumble came back)

b) Give incentive for developers to support the device;

c) For users to USE the device and not switch back and forth between it and the previous controller.

If it does that, then I'm going to strictly use the motion controller instead of having to toggle between multiple devices. I may not use the motion control functionality for each game, but at least it will be flexible enough to handle games that I've played now and in years past.

I think that part is absolutely *CRITICAL* to the design of the final unit and its success, and it looks like they're going in that direction, and I certainly hope they are.

100% agree. The worst thing Nintendo did with the Wii was design a controller that was only suitable for a handful of genres. They've single handedly killed the ability to support genres like fighting games, and gimped the usefulness of Gamecube backwards compatibility and the viability of VC games by requiring add-ons to run them. The Wii is a peripheral nightmare. Sony definitely don't want to follow Nintendo's example here.

Gahiggidy · Jun 8, 2009

Is it just me, or does that giant ping-pong on the end of that thing look awfully dorky?

sykoex · Jun 8, 2009

Gahiggidy said:
Is it just me, or does that giant ping-pong on the end of that thing look awfully dorky?

Yeah it kind of does to me too, but if it works, it works. Maybe they can figure out a way to redesign it so it looks cool. Does it have to be a sphere for the tech to work right?

JoJo13 · Jun 8, 2009

AranhaHunter said:
I think that's what will happen and will be bundled with the slim when it comes out in 2010, hopefully the DS3s will be on clearance if/when that happens so I can buy a couple of others

The Slim is coming in 2009, and it will be packaged with a DS3.

However, next fall Sony needs to add the new Sony Wand + Eye with every PS3 slim.

I expect Sony to lower the price to $299 and eventually that will be the standard PS3 for a long time (about as long as it's taking to get from 399 to 299, meaning a few years -- likely 2+). So I wouldn't expect a price drop next fall in 2010.

But what they CAN do to counter the launch of Natal is to provide the new controller with every PS3 Slim.

Eventually the PS3 80 GB came packaged with a DS3, and I expect the same transition to happen with this new controller.

AranhaHunter · Jun 8, 2009

JoJo13 said:
The Slim is coming in 2009, and it will be packaged with a DS3.

However, next fall Sony needs to add the new Sony Wand + Eye with every PS3 slim.

I expect Sony to lower the price to $299 and eventually that will be the standard PS3 for a long time (about as long as it's taking to get from 399 to 299, meaning a few years -- likely 2+). So I wouldn't expect a price drop next fall in 2010.

But what they CAN do to counter the launch of Natal is to provide the new controller with every PS3 Slim.

Eventually the PS3 80 GB came packaged with a DS3, and I expect the same transition to happen with this new controller.

Initially but then it'll be like MGS4 80GB all over again, if you remember, the DS3 came out in June and there was a SKU packaging with it and MGS4 and another SKU with sixaxis until that got cleared out

teiresias · Jun 8, 2009

Gahiggidy said:
Is it just me, or does that giant ping-pong on the end of that thing look awfully dorky?

Yeah, but I'm not really sure how to fix it. The size of it could possibly shrink if they can get tolerances to work better, but the color of the ball always needs to be some kind of neon tone though, basically something that's unlikely to actually exist in anyone's real living room decor so that the camera can be guaranteed to pick it out of the scene. In the demo he always used two controllers with two different color balls at the end as well, which is probably to be required too.

Raist · Jun 8, 2009

sykoex said:
Yeah it kind of does to me too, but if it works, it works. Maybe they can figure out a way to redesign it so it looks cool. Does it have to be a sphere for the tech to work right?

Depends on a couple of factors. Like, is there an array of LEDs or just a single light? But since apparently they gave up with ultrasonic stuff, U'm not sure they can use a much smaller light source since they use its actual vs perceived size to calculate depth. It probably has to be big enough for that. We probably won't know until they finalize the controller's design.

Brofist · Jun 8, 2009

JoJo13 said:
The Slim is coming in 2009, and it will be packaged with a DS3.

However, next fall Sony needs to add the new Sony Wand + Eye with every PS3 slim.

I expect Sony to lower the price to $299 and eventually that will be the standard PS3 for a long time (about as long as it's taking to get from 399 to 299, meaning a few years -- likely 2+). So I wouldn't expect a price drop next fall in 2010.

But what they CAN do to counter the launch of Natal is to provide the new controller with every PS3 Slim.

Eventually the PS3 80 GB came packaged with a DS3, and I expect the same transition to happen with this new controller.

Problem is most games will still require a DS3, and I can't imagine both being packed in.

JoJo13 · Jun 8, 2009

AranhaHunter said:
Initially but then it'll be like MGS4 80GB all over again, if you remember, the DS3 came out in June and there was a SKU packaging with it and MGS4 and another SKU with sixaxis until that got cleared out

Agreed, and I think that will come during Fall 2010 as a move against Natal.

kpop100 said:
Problem is most games will still require a DS3, and I can't imagine both being packed in.

My point before was that the new controller would be fully backwards compatible with the DS3...no need to pack in a DS3 if that is the case!

Brofist · Jun 8, 2009

JoJo13 said:
My point before was that the new controller would be fully backwards compatible with the DS3...no need to pack in a DS3 if that is the case!

Ahh I missed where you said that. Yeah if it had full DS3 functionality it would be possible I guess. Still don't know if I'd personally want to use that solution over a DS3 though.

Gahiggidy · Jun 8, 2009

Raist said:
Depends on a couple of factors. Like, is there an array of LEDs or just a single light? But since apparently they gave up with ultrasonic stuff, U'm not sure they can use a much smaller light source since they use its actual vs perceived size to calculate depth. It probably has to be big enough for that. We probably won't know until they finalize the controller's design.

hmm... sounds like Nintendo really did lock up the infrared tracking solution with their patent. Using simple "color" to track seems pretty low tech to me.

Raist · Jun 8, 2009

Gahiggidy said:
hmm... sounds like Nintendo really did lock up the infrared tracking solution with their patent. Using simple "color" to track seems pretty low tech to me.

Infrared is a "color", just not visible, so I'm not sure why it would be higher tech. Natal uses IR as well btw. Not in the same way tho.

Wollan · Jun 8, 2009

They would need 2x Sonymote's and 1x PS Eye to replace a DS3 sku.
And this is the company who currently ships a HD console without a HD image cable...

I wouldn't hold my breath for this to be the standard pack in controls.

JoJo13 · Jun 8, 2009

Wollan said:
They would need 2x Sonymote's and 1x PS Eye to replace a DS3 sku.
And this is the company who currently ships a HD console without a HD image cable...

I wouldn't hold my breath for this to be the standard pack in controls.

2 Sonymotes + 1 PSeye shouldn't be that expensive.

If they are taking this new controller seriously, it needs to be the next standard, and hopefully it eventually does get packed in.

I think a $299 PS3 with all of this packed in (plus a motion control game to show off the tech) would do more at pushing systems than a $250 PS3 with a DS3.

Throwaway123456789 · Jun 8, 2009

Wollan said:
They would need 2x Sonymote's and 1x PS Eye to replace a DS3 sku.
And this is the company who currently ships a HD console without a HD image cable...

I wouldn't hold my breath for this to be the standard pack in controls.

This.

A breakable controller would need to have two sets of accelerometers, gyroscopes, bluetooth, batteries, rumble and buttons.

If they have a super high sensitivity gyroscope like in the M+ (and it looks like they do), then the cost would be damn high. I already think the DS3 is expensive - this would cost out the ass.

gofreak · Jun 8, 2009

Anyone else wonder if the Buzz controllers might help inform the final design of these wands?

They're a bit wider than a current 'grip' on the DS3, and they'd have to work a bit on it's grip, and obviously the glowing bit has to turn into a full sphere rather than a 'flat' raised circle, but otherwise something like that could make a good foundation for the design of the wand.

Still pondering the potential placement of square/circle/x/triangle as satellite buttons around a stick, though..although if you look at the current DS3, you could already consider two of those buttons to be 'satellites' around the right stick, and it seems to work OK at the distances involved there.

Wollan · Jun 8, 2009

There's no real grip on the Buzz controllers, you're almost supposed to hold them with your finger tips like how you would potentially handshake a queen (or you hold them like you were typing sms on an iphone, two hands).

With a motion controller you obviously need a firm grip. In some ways the prototype demonstrated reminds us a bit of the buzz controller as it is flat ontop (where the buttons are) but I guess that could just as easily be a node to the Wiimote as well.

gofreak · Jun 8, 2009

Wollan said:
There's no real grip on the Buzz controllers, you're almost supposed to hold them with your finger tips like how you would potentially handshake a queen (or you hold them like you were typing sms on an iphone, two hands).

Yeah, I was toying around with one, and as I said, the grip is something that would need to be altered.

But it's sort of a precedent for 'big bulbous-headed' controllers

sykoex · Jun 8, 2009

Has this been posted? It looks to be a super early prototype of the colored "sphere" concept working with the original Eyetoy. "You can use any bright colored object you have in your house" he says.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpNdkm9s8AY

Cruzader · Jun 8, 2009

You guys are nuts to think Sony would bundle an Eye camera w/ wand in a Slim for $299, even if it replaces the DS3(which I hope it doesnt since it would be the stupidest thing to do) :lol

Also what would you guys say about "sixasix" functionality? A failure of sorts? I wouldnt call it that but its a pretty irrelevant feature now with the motion control stuff. Few games use it and the only one that I have used extensively with it is High Velocity Bowling.

sun-drop · Jun 8, 2009

i think the idea the two dildo's will be able to combine in multiple ways is pretty logical.

i mean end to end ..you get a staff ...linked in controler'ish style ..you get a stearing wheel ... etc etc ...

cakefoo · Jun 8, 2009

Is this the scheme everyone has agreed on for FPS's? The right analog would control the turning, and the remote controls the aiming? You'd have 2 reticules: one for the analog stick, and one for the remote. Fake edit: Now that I think about it, the white reticule might be a little unnecessary. But too late, I already made the gif. In motion it would look something like this:

Also, rather than aiming at the surface of your TV screen like a lightgun (gives a cheap, old-gen vibe) your hand should instead be reaching INTO the TV and the gun should mimic your remote's orientation 1:1.

Wollan · Jun 8, 2009

Yup, that was what I was thinking cakefoo (and like you said, the stick reticule is not needed). Remote pointing is the hand/weapon while the stick controls the image frame.

Arkham · Jun 8, 2009

Dibbz said:
Someone has probably already mentioned it but it just hit me today what Sony could be planning on doing.

I figure they will incorporate this new tech of theirs into a traditional controller eg Dualshock 3. The reason I think this is Sony created a patent for a breakable controller right?

Agreed, that's what I suspect as well.

cakefoo · Jun 8, 2009

gofreak said:
Anyone else wonder if the Buzz controllers might help inform the final design of these wands?

They're a bit wider than a current 'grip' on the DS3, and they'd have to work a bit on it's grip, and obviously the glowing bit has to turn into a full sphere rather than a 'flat' raised circle, but otherwise something like that could make a good foundation for the design of the wand.

Still pondering the potential placement of square/circle/x/triangle as satellite buttons around a stick, though..although if you look at the current DS3, you could already consider two of those buttons to be 'satellites' around the right stick, and it seems to work OK at the distances involved there.

I've had a small problem curving my thumb over and around the analog sticks to reach the 3 middle buttons on the Dualshocks. A standard Dualshock stick on the remote would mean poor accessibility for the surrounding buttons.

From my perspective, it looks like they went with a shorter analog, with a concave thumb grip, and the entire thing is recessed a little. And if I'm seeing that right, I like it.

VanMardigan · Jun 8, 2009

FoxHimself said:
If they have a super high sensitivity gyroscope like in the M+ (and it looks like they do), then the cost would be damn high. I already think the DS3 is expensive - this would cost out the ass.

The WM+ is NOT an expensive technology, even Nintendo has said this. They price it at $20 with the glove, and that allows for margins for them AND retailers. The DS3 is also overpriced. I don't think the costs would be as high, especially to Sony, who would be the one absorbing them for the pack-in. Of course, to Sony, ANY additional cost is probably too much right now to absorb.

Raist · Jun 8, 2009

sykoex said:
Has this been posted? It looks to be a super early prototype of the colored "sphere" concept working with the original Eyetoy. "You can use any bright colored object you have in your house" he says.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpNdkm9s8AY

How old is that stuff?

SirFodderton · Jun 8, 2009

that demo was made available in one of the official playstation magazine demo discs

sykoex · Jun 8, 2009

Raist said:
How old is that stuff?

It's from the demo disc that came with Official PlayStation Magazine Vol. 80 in 2004. "EyeToy Tech Demos"

Koren · Jun 8, 2009

Raist said:
How old is that stuff?

I learned this as a basic course about image processing in 2000. There's nothing really new in this tech, and most students in this field have coded this kind of stuff (at least in the universities I know).

sykoex · Jun 8, 2009

Koren said:
I learned this as a basic course about image processing in 2000. There's nothing really new in this tech, and most students in this field have coded this kind of stuff (at least in the universities I know).

Maybe you can answer this then, at the beginning of the video he "registered" the size of the ball... so can it detect depth based on how large or small the ball gets depending on how close you are?

squatingyeti · Jun 8, 2009

JoJo13 said:
2 Sonymotes + 1 PSeye shouldn't be that expensive.

If they are taking this new controller seriously, it needs to be the next standard, and hopefully it eventually does get packed in.

I think a $299 PS3 with all of this packed in (plus a motion control game to show off the tech) would do more at pushing systems than a $250 PS3 with a DS3.

A) How expensive are component cables, but Sony won't include those now?
B) How long do you want Sony to lose money on the PS3?

The reality is, they wouldn't be able to afford doing this at that price anytime soon.

Throwaway123456789 · Jun 8, 2009

VanMardigan said:
The WM+ is NOT an expensive technology, even Nintendo has said this. They price it at $20 with the glove, and that allows for margins for them AND retailers. The DS3 is also overpriced. I don't think the costs would be as high, especially to Sony, who would be the one absorbing them for the pack-in. Of course, to Sony, ANY additional cost is probably too much right now to absorb.

Dude, the WM+ costs 20 dollars. Imagine a controller that would need the tech in TWO WM+ units, as well as the tech in TWO wiimotes (like a break-apart two-waggle DS3 would need). It would not be cheap.

Throwaway123456789 · Jun 8, 2009

cakefoo said:
Is this the scheme everyone has agreed on for FPS's? The right analog would control the turning, and the remote controls the aiming? You'd have 2 reticules: one for the analog stick, and one for the remote. Fake edit: Now that I think about it, the white reticule might be a little unnecessary. But too late, I already made the gif. In motion it would look something like this:

Also, rather than aiming at the surface of your TV screen like a lightgun (gives a cheap, old-gen vibe) your hand should instead be reaching INTO the TV and the gun should mimic your remote's orientation 1:1.

Doesn't Resident Evil 4 Wii do that when you're in shooting mode? It works pretty damn good.

Wollan · Jun 8, 2009

FoxHimself said:
Doesn't Resident Evil 4 Wii do that when you're in shooting mode? It works pretty damn good.

Not at the same time. He had them separate in the gif but our idea is that it is mixed.

Koren · Jun 8, 2009

sykoex said:
Maybe you can answer this then, at the beginning of the video he "registered" the size of the ball... so can it detect depth based on how large or small the ball gets depending on how close you are?

It's not precise (especially with a wide-angle lens), so you'd want to rely on accelerometers to get precise z displacements, but it can detect the beacon coming clother/going farther from the screen.

You'll get a precision around a couple of inches, but it can indeed be used. The closer you are to the camera, the more precise the system will be (but you limit the lateral motion by being too close). Larger balls is better, too, but I doubt they'll use basketballs just to increase precision.

BTW, I think the console rather register the reference position of the player rather than the size of the ball (even if it's pretty much the same).

nelsonroyale · Jun 8, 2009

Koren said:
I learned this as a basic course about image processing in 2000. There's nothing really new in this tech, and most students in this field have coded this kind of stuff (at least in the universities I know).

In terms of the tech...even the Natal stuff has been produced for quite a long time...hell one of my friends did PR for a company using haptic technology, which incorporates touch sensation...they had the first virtual handshake online

Koren · Jun 8, 2009

nelsonroyale said:
In terms of the tech...even the Natal stuff has been produced for quite a long time...

That's true, but most time of flight cameras I've seen are pretty expensive (think $1000+) and often quite low res (32x32, 64x64 and such). I'll be really impressed if Microsoft can come with a TOF camera for 30-40$. And algorithms are a bit more complex.

At least, locating color objects in an image can be done with a $5 webcam (as long as you can disable auto white balance, I nearly turned mad two month ago because of this)

ralexand · Jun 8, 2009

nelsonroyale said:
In terms of the tech...even the Natal stuff has been produced for quite a long time...hell one of my friends did PR for a company using haptic technology, which incorporates touch sensation...they had the first virtual handshake online

And that's why software and marketing will decide who wins the Motion control race and less so the actual tech.

Alot of this stuff has been demoed with the eyetoy but few devs have actually used it.

SSJ1Goku · Jun 8, 2009

cakefoo said:
From my perspective, it looks like they went with a shorter analog, with a concave thumb grip, and the entire thing is recessed a little. And if I'm seeing that right, I like it.

I just noticed that was an analog stick, I thought is was a funky looking d-pad.

Throwaway123456789 · Jun 8, 2009

Wollan said:
Not at the same time. He had them separate in the gif but our idea is that it is mixed.

No, RE4Wii does it. You hold a button to go into shooting mode, and the control stick controls the camera while the pointer aims around on the screen.

Wollan · Jun 8, 2009

FoxHimself said:
No, RE4Wii does it. You hold a button to go into shooting mode, and the control stick controls the camera while the pointer aims around on the screen.

Ah yeah. But you don't have two sticks so you're immobile.
Still, interesting though. Maybe I will pick it up to try that.

Throwaway123456789 · Jun 8, 2009

Wollan said:
Ah yeah. But you don't have two sticks so you're immobile.
Still, interesting though. Maybe I will pick it up to try that.

Yeah you can't move while in the shooting "mode". I'm not sure how that would work practically though. I guess my brain would explode from trying to do three things at once :lol

DunpealD · Jun 8, 2009

Wollan said:
Ah yeah. But you don't have two sticks so you're immobile.
Still, interesting though. Maybe I will pick it up to try that.

I think the closest one to what you mean is probably Time Crisis 4 story mode. Two Sticks to move/turn and a pointer to aim while strafing and turning. Too bad nobody utilized the G-Con 3, would have loved to see more games for it, especially FPS.

JoJo13 · Jun 9, 2009

Cruzader said:
You guys are nuts to think Sony would bundle an Eye camera w/ wand in a Slim for $299, even if it replaces the DS3(which I hope it doesnt since it would be the stupidest thing to do) :lol

Also what would you guys say about "sixasix" functionality? A failure of sorts? I wouldnt call it that but its a pretty irrelevant feature now with the motion control stuff. Few games use it and the only one that I have used extensively with it is High Velocity Bowling.

Why would it replacing the DS3 be a stupid idea?

The two wands don't have to be linked together.

cakefoo · Jun 9, 2009

FoxHimself said:
Yeah you can't move while in the shooting "mode". I'm not sure how that would work practically though. I guess my brain would explode from trying to do three things at once :lol

Imagine headtracking on top of that

gofreak · Jun 9, 2009

Arrived today in the USPTO.

These were registered a year ago, last June, so any design they're thinking about now might be significantly different. These designs also don't accomodate 'the sphere'. But they seem very similar from a buttons POV to the one shown at E3. They have in common:

A stick, 4 buttons, and 2 shoulder buttons/trigger, home button, select and start. In other words, half a DS3. The one at E3 seemed to place the stick in the middle of the four buttons, but in these it's just below.

[Nintex] · Jun 9, 2009

gofreak said:
Arrived today in the USPTO.

These were registered a year ago, last June, so any design they're thinking about now might be significantly different. These designs also don't accomodate 'the sphere'. But they seem very similar from a buttons POV to the one shown at E3. They have in common:

A stick, 4 buttons, and 2 shoulder buttons/trigger, home button, select and start. In other words, half a DS3. The one at E3 seemed to place the stick in the middle of the four buttons, but in these it's just below.

Straight from the NCL dustbins I guess?

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