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The Shameful Media Coverage of Shenmue III
- Thread starter Danlord
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No thanks. This is a story that has been written since 1993.
Mass_Pincup
Banned
What do you not understand?
walltowall
Member
OK, so when he says that "obviously we're providing some funding" he meant that they are NOT providing funding?
Do you think publishing duties are free?
Sumio Mondo
Member
Publishing and marketing the game isn't providing funding?
sechsterangriff
Member
Dude, funding can be translated to to many things. From actual money exchanging hands to assuming expenses from another party. Expenses like publishing a game and marketing, for example.
They are "funding" it the same way they "funded" Hotline Miami. Nothing to do with development , but publishing and marketting.
sechsterangriff
Member
Precisely. Which makes me think that at least these reporters won't be that happy about it if it turns out to be good...
It's like when Sony sent people out to Blizzard to help optimize Diablo III for the PS4.
That took time, manpower, and funding... but it was just for the PS4 build of the game and, without it, the game was still going to be made and released on the PS4 and other platforms.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
I said earlier today that the insurance MGSV thread was the most childish thread I've seen on gaf.
I take that back.
I take that back.
walltowall
Member
What?? The man flat out says that they are providing funding and then says they will also get in on the marketing. But you two are saying that Sony is not???
Oh boy......
Care to elaborate, please?
Somebody let developers know publishing is now free.
Laevateinn
Member
You could inject that sentence directly into peoples brains with a needle and they still won't get the difference between assuming publishing duties for the PS4 version and funding the entire game and fleecing fans to build Yu Suzuki a mega-Ferrari.
letmetrythisname
Member
Yu Suzuki isn't indie-darling enough for journalists not to write sensationalist bullshit about. I feel so bad for him, since I've been wanting Shenmue III for over a decade and now that he's finally announced it people are giving him shit.
walltowall
Member
He never mentions publishing in the interview. He was asked how is Sony helping and if they were providing money. He answered with the quote and also mentioned marketing as well. To say that Sony is not providing funding is inaccurate.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
Nah. I'll leave it up to interpretation.
If Sony is publishing the game, and by virtue marketing it too, they are obviously providing funding. Just not with the development side of things.
He mentions in this one, that was recorded (or at least published) 2 days later.
He even explains why the kickstarter model was chosen, give it a watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dL198n2d0o
Thanks for you contribution
Sumio Mondo
Member
Nah, what's inaccurate is believing that Sony are helping with dev costs at all. Why do you think Yu Suzuki is still looking for additional funding providers? For fun?
Pft, everyone loves Suzuki. A few negative articles doesn't change that. The hyperbole in this thread is out of this world good.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
When the timed exclusivity ends, and the game finally goes multiplat, I wonder if all these weary writers linked to in the OP will still stay as "concerned." Cause surely this couldn't all be stemming from paid bias and general salt.
protomouse
Member
It really doesn't matter if not a single Sony cent goes to the Shenmue treasury. Sony has been able to extract good will off the back of a crowdfunding campaign, which unavoidably leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I think people have rightfully been skeptical towards this.
You can argue semantics until your face turns blue, but the moment Shenmue was announced on Sony's stage, Sony got involved as far as public perception is concerned. Whether they clarified the funding aspect or not ultimately makes little difference. I'd like to think that Shenmue could have been equally (if not more) successful without Sony's involvement. It would at the very least not have suffered through all the negative reactions that way.
You can argue semantics until your face turns blue, but the moment Shenmue was announced on Sony's stage, Sony got involved as far as public perception is concerned. Whether they clarified the funding aspect or not ultimately makes little difference. I'd like to think that Shenmue could have been equally (if not more) successful without Sony's involvement. It would at the very least not have suffered through all the negative reactions that way.
PeregrinSe7en
Member
Dragon Puncher
Member
I don't really have any horse in the Shenmue race, but gaming "jounalism" is without a doubt in a terrible state. 90% of sites don't check sources or just write articles with sensational headlines, based on other nearly articles on other sites. Is basically the Gawker method, but spread out across most of the writting on a single medium. Getting rid of most of that bullshit is one of the reasons I like GAF.
It's stemming from the uncertain funding avenues for Shenmue III, nothing more and nothing less.
This stuff doesn't even phase me any more. In spite of the passive aggressive press coverage, Shenmue III was the most successful Kickstarter game ever. They can't take that away from us now.
Still, it's surprising that people really expect Sony to come out and say, "we gave them $500k." or $1 million. Companies never do that.
Still, it's surprising that people really expect Sony to come out and say, "we gave them $500k." or $1 million. Companies never do that.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
Yup. What a freaking shill.
The comparison was meant to show how different exactly the same behaviour would be received purely on basis of goodwill (or a lack thereof). Because of the flack Ubisoft tends to get on Gaf, i decided to use that as an example, money didn't really play a part at all. Should have made that clear. The comparison could also have been to Phil Fish or Adam Orth or anyone people don't seem to like that much.
I also understand that Suzuki developed quite a few great titles. The thing is:
He released his las big game 14 years ago under the umbrella of a big publisher with quite a few ressources. I can't see how his qualifications say too much about his competence in handling a part self-, part crowd-, part sony-founded project with VERY limited ressources in a media landscape that is completely different from how it was 14 years ago.
Again: I'm also not saying he won't be able to deal with it. But he shouldn't get a blank check from the media - fans can and probably should give him exactly that, that's fine, but it gets problematic when they ask, or rather demand, the same from everyone else, including the media.
Concerning the headline of the Eurogamer article:
It's a good headline. The responsible editor would have been crazy not to use it. I'll explain why:
The headline for an interview has to pull in the reader with a short, easy to understand quote that works without giving it further context. It has to be able to stand on it's own and make as many people interested in the interview as possible.
When the creator of a kickstarted campaign that was, from start to finish, accompanied by confusion and mixed messaging regarding the financing (especially regarding the actualy minimal costs and actual ideal budget), answers "Can you make the game you want to make" with "We could do with more money" then he gives you that headline on a silver platter. You would be a terrible editor if you wouldn't use it on your headline and you would lose thousands of readers. Because this quote manages to stay on it's own without being deceiving (He actually did say EXACTLY that without any pushing or deceiving questioning) and manages to generate a lot of interest for that interview, which, again, is your job. Is it helpful for Suzuki? Probably not. But that absolutely can't matter in editorial decisions because then you might as well delete that quote from the article itself, too.
The quote is noteworthy in the context of Shenmue 3s history, it's not deceiving (I realize many people in this thread think otherwise but I disagree for the reasons I already stated) and as an editor you would be terrible at your job if you didn't use it.
We don't even know if Shenmue III would have existed without Sony's involvement. What difference does the latter make?
The problem is that companies had also (up to that point) not used Kickstarter so blatantly as a gauge of public interest and marketing campaign.
I mean, of course it'd happened in the past (Penny Arcade, famously), but the mortgaging of our collective nostalgia has soured a lot of journalists to the entire idea of crowdfunding.
Then why does everyone always talk about Sony and not the company that is providing more money than Sony is?
They announced the campaign on Sony's stage? Seems like a good reason to approach Sony about it.
Moon_frogger
Member
so....do certain people in this thread need an explanation of the difference between 'funding' 'publishing' and 'developing'?
Also, I understand the media's skepticism. I'm skeptical too and jaded as hell about most things gaming related, let alone the hit or miss history of kickstarter. Still, it was highly sensationalized for sure.
Also, I understand the media's skepticism. I'm skeptical too and jaded as hell about most things gaming related, let alone the hit or miss history of kickstarter. Still, it was highly sensationalized for sure.
Having a problem with sony donating a few bucks to a kickstarter is stupid.
Sorry, Im just not going to beat around the bush on that. They arent a huge contributor from that quote, just another company that threw some money into the pot along with a ton of other individuals, some also from companies.
That is a really completely random and stupid reason to dislike a kickstarter.
Mass_Pincup
Banned
What are you talking about? How did Shenmue's kickstarter "blatantly gauge public interest" ?
And Bloodstained actually did it.
I'm not sure it's shameful to hold a kickstarter to account.
They asked for a shitload of money, but not big-budget-game money. It makes sense to be skeptical about their finances and it makes sense to check if the project is going according to plan after they profited off of a lot of people's goodwill.
You're sipping the kool-aid a little bit, I think. There is no "us" here. You're a consumer of a product that has yet to be made.
Honestly shocking that people are getting upset about this sort of reporting after the numerous high profile Kickstarter flops. We've just seen Mighty No. 9 delayed yet again and we're seeing what a messy develop process it's had.
They asked for a shitload of money, but not big-budget-game money. It makes sense to be skeptical about their finances and it makes sense to check if the project is going according to plan after they profited off of a lot of people's goodwill.
You're sipping the kool-aid a little bit, I think. There is no "us" here. You're a consumer of a product that has yet to be made.
Honestly shocking that people are getting upset about this sort of reporting after the numerous high profile Kickstarter flops. We've just seen Mighty No. 9 delayed yet again and we're seeing what a messy develop process it's had.
Elfforkusu
Member
The only reason "uncertain funding avenues" is an issue is if you think Yu Suzuki is a con-man.
That is why I nodded in agreement as a read the thread title. I'm not a Shenmue fan (though I'm working on it with a glacially slow playthrough of II), but I am a fan of almost every other game AM2 did under Yu Suzuki. He's a legend, and he's been out of the game for a decade. Now he's trying to get back in, and we've got videogame journalists running thinly veiled hit pieces on him for clicks.
Disgusting, infuriating. And also very instructive. Pretty easy to see which outlets have integrity, and it's not very many.
alexandros
Banned
I think that some scepticism was warranted in this particular case.
I see this Shenmue media coverage and i remember the infamous RPS article/interview with Peter Molyneux.
In my opinion both are topics that are/were interesting to be tackled, but were approached in a flawed manner. In the RPS feature people criticized the journalist for his combative and someway aggressive stance against Molyneux, even if we was making good questions that need answers. (And that critic was amplified when Eurogamer published a much more thoughtful article days later)
In the Shenmue case, i agree that the hole KS campaign was misconducted (surpassed only by Inafune crazy rides) and some clarification is needed. But as happens every time, the way journalists approached the topics are the most sensationalist possible, using clickbait headlines, taking quotes out of the context and just beating a dead horse.
In my opinion both are topics that are/were interesting to be tackled, but were approached in a flawed manner. In the RPS feature people criticized the journalist for his combative and someway aggressive stance against Molyneux, even if we was making good questions that need answers. (And that critic was amplified when Eurogamer published a much more thoughtful article days later)
In the Shenmue case, i agree that the hole KS campaign was misconducted (surpassed only by Inafune crazy rides) and some clarification is needed. But as happens every time, the way journalists approached the topics are the most sensationalist possible, using clickbait headlines, taking quotes out of the context and just beating a dead horse.
The net effect of Sony's actions (contributing money, giving Suzuki stage time for the announcement) is that Shenmue III will be a better game. For some of us, that's where this begins and ends. Sony acted pragmatically to do all they could to make their most requested game a reality.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
Why is any of this an inherently bad thing though? In the case of Shenmue, it's a beloved but niche franchise. Does a big company have the money to make the game? Probably, but the return on the investment is uncertain. Why and how is it in any way shady for a company to enable the game's development, by gauging fan response with hard dollars first? After all, you're entitled to a refund if you're not furnished with the promised product right?
If Kickstarter can be an avenue for big and established companies to take risks with new products they wouldn't have otherwise, I'd say that's a good thing.
How did it not? Boye's admitted it in the interview with Gerstmann and Suzuki said as much in his update on June 24th.
Also, while Bloodstained was also being used as a gauge of public interest for further funding, it wasn't announced on during the Sony E3 press conference. As I said in my post, that kind of shady crowdfunding campaign had been done previously, but not so blatantly.
Sumio Mondo
Member
It's actually not unheard of for Kickstarter projects to get picked up for publishing and funding later after the Kickstarter has already ended. Happened with Bloodstained. It happened with Mighty No. 9. It even happened with Red Ash despite being a failure of a Kickstarter. So...what's your point? Without the initial funding, the games wouldn't be a reality in the first place, it's pretty simple. You want games like such and such made, then you fund them. That's it. See? That wasn't so hard.
bishopcruz
Member
Ok, I'm just using this as an example, but THIS is why articles like the ones quoted in the OP were shameful. And to be fair, worse was probably done in podcasts, videos, and off the cuff remarks. Essentially, the narrative became that Sony was funding the game after the $2 million proved interest, and there was no reason to really fund it, in fact funding it would be like throwing your money way because Sony had the big bucks.
That just simply wasn't true. During the press conference Boyes specified that it was very much a YsNet project. It got funded more or less immediately, and around that time the grumblings of Sony secretly funding the game in order to defraud people on Kickstarter had begun. Within a couple of days information was out there clarifying Sony's position, it looked to be something similar to what they did with pubfund for other games. But that wasn't enough. The narrative was set. Sony was providing the bulk of funding in many people's minds, and that was that.
Thing is, that was just ONE of the fun bits of misinformation. We also had ones like "$10 million or the game will suck!", "The game can't be made for so cheap! Shenmue 1 cost $70 MILLION!!!!" and "Is it a scam?" all of those easily debunked headlines added to the view of the Shenmue kickstarter being shadier than the norm, even when it wasn't.
That's not to say that the kickstarter itself was run all that well. YsNet left money on the table bigtime by how Awesome Japan ran the whole thing, but it sure as shit wasn't helped by the misinformation running around the games journalism/blogosphere at that time.
Nothing though, beats the attacks on opening up funding for Paypal. First off, that is incredibly common in kickstarting games especially. Many allow you to be a slacker backer up until close to release. Secondly, it is something that people had been asking for for MONTHS. The fans WANTED Paypal, because some of them couldn't donate any other way. Finally, in the most transparent, and non-shady thing I have seen, YsNet is limiting the time that paypal will be open so that he can budget and scope the game correctly. Scandalous, I know.
"Us", as in Shenmue fans. I really don't understand what you're getting at here.
If Shenmue didnt break that $2m in a day record. You can bet the press would have been more positive. If the game was struggling to reach $2m , nobody would have cared. Heck on the last day you would have Kotaku posting " Support Shenmue and give like a retrospective on it"
But instead of broke all expectations and suddenly every thought "This was obviously going to happen"
When most gaffers were laughing at the fact that Shenmue would raise $2m before the campaign.
But instead of broke all expectations and suddenly every thought "This was obviously going to happen"
When most gaffers were laughing at the fact that Shenmue would raise $2m before the campaign.
Completely agree with OP.
Even Destructoid (one of my favorite sites) publishes crap like this:
http://www.destructoid.com/-6m-isn-t-enough-to-make-shenmue-3-gorgeous-visually--313944.phtml
Totally ignores the rest of the article which again, is really good.
I don't understand...its Yu Suzuki, he gave us OutRun and Virtua Fighter...cut the man some slack.
Even Destructoid (one of my favorite sites) publishes crap like this:
http://www.destructoid.com/-6m-isn-t-enough-to-make-shenmue-3-gorgeous-visually--313944.phtml
Totally ignores the rest of the article which again, is really good.
I don't understand...its Yu Suzuki, he gave us OutRun and Virtua Fighter...cut the man some slack.
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