Altered Juice
Member
not happy? Optimization of 2017 games got me like:
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Colin Moriarty of Kinda Funny: source says "most developers are not happy with PS4.5"
- Thread starter Chobel
- Start date
Movalpolos
Banned
Bots are better than you
Banned
Yet somehow it's dev managed to get Hyrule Warriors, a native Wii U game, unlike Xenoblade, a Wii game, running on the OG 3DS. But it runs bad, really bad.
And most importantly, that example wasn't about freaking power, it was about games, exclusive to the better hardware. Why do i even have to write this?
AcademicSaucer
Member
If you already have a PC , yes, it still lives.
From a business standpoint it's a relevant question - if it succeeds, it proves the iterative model is lucrative. That's a big thing hinging on this release!
Hey, if this ends up just being a slim model that only plays 4K blu Rays and upscales games to look acceptable on a 4K tv then I am all for this thing existing. But if it sets a divide between game graphics on ps4 and ps4k, then they went down the wrong road in my opinion.
The Xbox One can handle 1080/30 fine, but it just so happens the PS4 has become the lead platform; try to get 1080/30 on that, then get it running on the Xbox One, even if you need to dip the resolution.
Handling 1080/30 is relative. If PS4 Neo games target 1080/30, and if developers shift focus to that, then the PS4 is going to have a hard time handling 1080/30. Or, and perhaps more likely, developers maintain the PS4 as the 1080/30 platform, and the PS4 Neo just sees a resolution bump to 1440/30.
Audioboxer
Member
Well... Genuine hardware weakness for a certain genre (or when that genre requires a lot on screen versus other implementations).
As for power, think of your potential game or genre the PS4 can't handle but PS4k can? We have open world, high based physics, and crazy shit like UC4 right now. I really don't see anything coming in the next few years that cannot be scaled to an experience on PS4/XB1, that otherwise would run as shit as Hyrule Warriors.
PS4 Neo games will be a middle-man in the chain from PS4 to PC port.
But you already know it's the latter as well. There is no point in pretending this isn't going to happen to be outraged at a later date.
Because traditionally console gamers have been a bit more savvy, and are more adverse to getting less value proposition, longevity and primary focus out of their consoles. Hell we used to have consoles at launch that were more state of the art and better subsidised, this time around that never really happened, and instead of pricing dropping at a faster rate, or the console life cycle simply being shorter, instead we get this bullshit iterative nonsense that gives us even less value for money.
This is for the console enthusiast, not the mainstream market . The og ps4 is for the mainstream market. Until the next upgrade and the mainstream market can upgrade to the neo.
Shpeshal Nick
aka Collingwood
Printers cost like under $100 and are a device people rarely use anymore
How often do you upgrade your TV?
What about your car?
What about your PC?
Hell, even your phone if you buy outright (like I do)?
That's a better comparison.
Me personally? I'm fine with this. I buy a new smartphone outright annually. I can afford to upgrade my consoles every 2-3 years. Am I happy about it? Not overly, but that's probably just my old school conditioning of how this industry works.
But the printer comparison is dumb. I can see why people are lidded about this.
Bots are better than you
Banned
Like Hyrule Warriors was "scaled to an experience" on OG 3DS? Come on. Devs get a pretty good GPU upgrade, you think they won't find things to use this for? Please.
OrbitalBeard
Member
Eh, I'm not a fan of list wars but I'll bite. Not that I'm saying this is objectively a better selection of games. I've simply been more satisfied with this:
Resogun
InFAMOUS: Second Son
Driveclub
Bloodborne
Until Dawn
Tearaway Unfolded
Ratchet & Clank
Uncharted 4 (to be fair, it's not out yet....I guess it's possible I won't love it)
Over what Nintendo's offered on Wii U. The only three Wii U games I've truly loved are Tropical Freeze, Bayonetta 2, and Splatoon. In fairness though, I LOVE these three games and the system has been worth it for me because of them, despite my overall disappointment in the console.
The Baron Count
Member
I know, but I don't think I'll ever get used to it.
Absolutely not, but my argument isn't even that it's a big pain in the ass. Every dev's mileage will vary. My argument is that it IS more money and work, and that is all there is to it.
And my frustration comes from those who are stealthily doing the whole "lazy devs" thing in threads like this. I would love to see some of these people try to get the most simple program up and running, much less something involving 3D graphics. Most on this forum seem to have no understanding of how difficult AAA game development already is these days. It's a small miracle when a team ships a game and there is rarely such a thing as a little more work when it comes to programming in game development. A tiny task can very easily take up a day or more.
Nobody has the right to sit there and say how a developer should feel about this except a developer. And I'm not trying to do that. I'm simply stating common sense things. A second platform is more work, and there will certainly be plenty of devs that don't think it's worth it, as well as plenty that do. But it's more work regardless.
I'm not pushing the same "Sky is falling" narrative that some are. I'm just being realistic.
Then I personally think they are making a bad move. The PS4 is doing so well despite being underpowered compared to PCs. Why throw a wrench in it?
The ironic thing is that despite this power bump, it's still going to be underpowered compared to PCs. I just don't get why? I want Sony to give us a good reason as to why this exists.
Doctor_Thomas
Member
It wouldn't surprise me that devlopers aren't happy, especially if the NX is reasonable and viable and Microsoft are doing the same.
They went from potentially 4 platforms to deal with, to 6. Whether or not the development enivornment for the PS4K and XB1.5 are the same or not, it's different hardware which will need to be handled differently.
The ability to play the games on the two versions also means they're optimising a game for two platforms, but for the price of one game.
They went from potentially 4 platforms to deal with, to 6. Whether or not the development enivornment for the PS4K and XB1.5 are the same or not, it's different hardware which will need to be handled differently.
The ability to play the games on the two versions also means they're optimising a game for two platforms, but for the price of one game.
I was mostly talking about the development process. You raise a good point though and I hadn't considered how that works, so with that I think i'm going to stop fighting the good fight and wait to hear how this thing actually works before rearing my head.
This will delay the release of the next proper console, and is also likely to negatively affect vanilla users due to less development focus and shared priority. In that sense, whilst it may be aimed at enthusiasts, it affects everyone. The OP indirectly highlights that.
I guess you can't ignore its existence and your game at least has to come with a NEO specific profile. From Giant Bomb thread:
Nib95's posts generally reflect my sentiments exactly, although he probably does a better job of explaining things than me.
Steve Youngblood
Member
OK. I want to emphatically note that I'm neither for nor against the release of the PS4K upgrade. The word I would use to describe my feelings towards it would be "ambivalence." I think it could be a neat option for people who want more horsepower. I think it could needlessly segment the audience. I also think it could wind up being a waste of time in that it might only receive token support and never realize its potential. I honestly don't know what to expect.
But having said that, I also don't think these comparisons are very apt. You're correct. You don't need to upgrade your TV every few years. But you also don't need to upgrade here. But if you actually do feel compelled to stay at the bleeding edge of tech, then you might need to upgrade your TV every couple of years. Whether it's due to TVs getting bigger or just more whizbang features getting added every year, or perhaps lower input lag, or better contrast, or... you get the point. I'm just saying that your TV from 4 years ago probably isn't the baddest thing on the block anymore in terms of deciding where this year's super bowl party is going to be. So if you're obsessed with keeping up with the Jonses, then yeah, you probably do need to replace that old set.
But if you're sitting there thinking "I don't care about the new features of the last several years; my old set is perfectly fine," then I think that mindset also applies here.
And I'm just going to close out by trying to reiterate that I'm not one of those FryShutUpAndTakeMyMoney.jpg people that is already sold on this device. If I had to put money on it, my suspicion is that the improvements from upgrading will probably be largely underwhelming. Of course, I might just be saying that as someone who has a pretty decent gaming PC. But I'm just saying that I'm not salivating over the possibility of 4K Uncharted 4. I'm not expecting a whole hell of a lot here.
CosmicQueso
Member
Which can be seen as a good thing for devs, seeing as how costs grow significantly with each gen, while the audience for such products is not growing as quickly.
Marty Chinn
Member
We just witnessed the Vita and the PlayStation TV; why should we assume Sony is smart and always knows what they're doing? They've had plenty of missteps in the past and even in the recent past to not give them a pass on this.
Audioboxer
Member
Any comparison is dumb really, as I like others admit console owners aren't used to this. Some of the outrage is going into whacky territory though of somehow saying devs won't be able to make games run on the consoles they've been working with for 3 years for all types of genres. I mean guys, it's not that big a performance jump. Nothing like what we'll have when we still have the cross-gen PS4/PS5 games in a few years.
Finding things to use the extra power for is not the same as imaging PS4 original copies of games running at Hyrule Warriors 10FPS. They already find things to use the PCs extra power from in PC ports, and it tends to be higher detailed textures, better lighting and better physics. Doesn't mean a PS4 game can't do 1080p/30FPS scaled back from it's PC version.
P S V R
It's not like there isn't some game changing new tech being tinkered and pushed by multiple developers.
When it comes down to it, the PS4 is not well position to put Sony in the middle of what might be the next gaming revolution. It's too early for the PS5.
PS4K is absolutely a stop-gap to insure PSVR had a market share in VR. It's really the only reason it make sense to possibly alienate their current users.
Like kinect / MS before, Sony feels this is something they absolutely need to push into to be relevant in the future. Time will tell of its the right call.
Personally I don't think they're planning on up ending the console cycle. Instead, the pace of VR tech maturing forced their hand to push a half measure because they wernt expecting to need a console capable of it untill PS5 was ready to go.
nelsonroyale
Member
I am not seeing how this is that big a deal. The architecture should be pretty much the same as the current PS4...You already have a PC space where you aim for a variety of specs. I just don't see how this is a big deal. The thing is, they should make these fricking consoles upgradeable. I want seperate systems for games and work, but I want to be able to upgrade my system. I also want to play Sony games, so PC is out of the question.
No shit.
It must be so difficult and stressful anyway being a dev, now you've got another system to make games for alongside the original PS4, Xbox One and Xbox One.5, maybe NX and obviously PC.
It's going to be a lot more work for these devs, and that's going to be draining especially for smaller teams
It must be so difficult and stressful anyway being a dev, now you've got another system to make games for alongside the original PS4, Xbox One and Xbox One.5, maybe NX and obviously PC.
It's going to be a lot more work for these devs, and that's going to be draining especially for smaller teams
True, plus with both consoles on x86 both consoles should be forwards and backwards compatible now.
Not at all, because in the middle of that they're still going to have to develop for more systems. That's the whole point of the OP and developer sentiment towards this potential release.
Watching this Hyrule Warriors Legends 3DS/New3DS comparison feels like looking into the future.
The best case scenario for this seems to be PS4 Neo games sticking to a resolution boost over 1080p. A 1080/30 PS4 Neo game is going to mean a rough experience for people who haven't upgraded.
The best case scenario for this seems to be PS4 Neo games sticking to a resolution boost over 1080p. A 1080/30 PS4 Neo game is going to mean a rough experience for people who haven't upgraded.
KawabataSan
Member
.
blankempathy
Member
Lets be honest though. Not every dev is going to have the same issues to deal with. I think the ones who are going to be the most upset by this are the ones are the AAA developers who already have stupid deadlines they need to meet in order to pump out whatever favorite sequel everyone wants. Games where it'll take extensive testing because just lowering settings on one version doesn't guarantee that the framerate will be acceptable during moments of gameplay where you have 100s of enemies on screen etc and they'll have to make other tweaks here and there.
Its amazing how many people used hyrule warriors legends working on both 3ds versions as a defense to not worry about the ps4k. That video does not inspire confidence at all.
CosmicQueso
Member
Small cost increases for a mid-cycle upgrade versus very large cost increases for the next generation, particularly if native 4K is the thing at that point.
Not sure you're thinking this through.
Well, everyone would win with this if it works out.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
I see consumers and devs asking for more power all the time. Every generation.
And they are not Nintendo. People don't want us using tech (TV/Cell Phones) to compare (one of which, Sony, that makes other said tech advancing products), but want to compare Nintendo of all companies to the other two.
Audioboxer
Member
A 1080/30FPS Neo game will be 1080/30FPS because the devs put textures on high, physics on high, and lighting on high.
A 1080/30FPS original PS4 game will be 1080/30FPS because the devs put textures on medium, physics on medium and lighting on medium.
It's not rocket science. A bump like this gives you prettier graphics, it doesn't cause the PS4 to implode and be unable to run games like it has for 3 years. My brain can't even comprehend how we're comparing this to the 3DS version of Hyrule Warriors.
The Baron Count
Member
This is exactly what I think as well. I don't actually believe this would be happening right now if not for their VR push and that is the one reason I think this may be the right move.
I want VR to get traction quickly and Sony absolutely has the best chance of making that happen, but the current PS4 just isn't ready for it. They need this spec bump.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
"Please double our QC time" said no dev.
It just seems like a bum deal all round.
It just seems like a bum deal all round.
BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
Junior Member
so? I'm hyped as fuck and why can't they just ignore it.
I don't think the history of platform power differences agree with you. That's more effort than what typically happens if you compare a PS4 and Xbox One release, which usually just comes down to a resolution difference. Optimizing a game to run 1080/30 with different graphical features on a different platform is more work.
What's the point of the Hyrule Warriors comparison? That game would still run like shit on 3DS even if the New 3DS didn't exist. I don't see why Neo would make games run worse on base PS4 than they would otherwise. Unless you're in the "lazy devs" camp, then I don't know what to say.
Psychoward
Banned
Fucking thank you, finally someone realizes these problems don't exist in a vacuum.
What about all the cross gen games that released at the start of this gen? Were people concerned with all the work that needed to be done to get those games out?
ninjablade
Banned
Well there doing the samething right now. the gpu in ps4k already runs ps4 games much better on pc. I don't see how this is that much work
Clockwork5
Member
Will all existing games need a "4K patch"?
My point with the Hyrule Warriors comparison is that it exists. You can see an example where a developer creates a game that utilizes a particular piece of more powerful hardware, and due to the game also having to run on a less powerful piece of hardware you get a game that runs badly and attempts more than the hardware is capable of.
Audioboxer
Member
Yeah it is and it's what the devs may well be grumbling about. If Sony launch this though the devs will either have to adapt or simply not really take advantage of Neo specs. If they do the later it doesn't mean the original PS4 copy is somehow gimped. It runs the same as it would if Neo was simply a dream.
And going by all the evidence we have so far, the PS4 can do 1080/30 fine, or 900/60 fine. This will continue.
What is the PS4 not capable of today, that PS4 Neo is going to remedy? That is my point. We have every genre imaginable and they all either hit one of the two targets I said above.
The only thing it is genuinely going to remedy that may well need it, is the future of VR support.
bu bu but neogaf told me it was no extra work and that devs who were unhappy were lazy fatties
I don't think you're thinking this through, and completely ignoring the OP, which is about developer sentiment. If you were right, developers wouldn't be annoyed about this.
That next proper console jump is still coming, it's only going to come a year or two later now, but publishers are also going to have to worry about developing for more iterative systems in the meantime. It's extra unnecessary headache, cost, consideration and effort, which is no doubt why most developers are unhappy about it.
Also, who's to say costs will be so large moving forward to the next proper generational jump? That really is down to the studio in question, and the amount they're willing to invest. Many studios likely won't develop entirely new or bespoke engines, and others will only improve or develop ones they already have. A lot of the engines being developed this time around are more future proof than in the past, and I don't think the jump in costs will be as radical as you make out.