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The Holocaust, and the industrialization of genocide

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G

gumshoe

Banned
Before I start, and before people start jumping to conclusions (gaffers LOVE to do that) I want to say that I am not talking about the actual genocide. I am talking about the Holocaust Industry, which is definitely worth billions of dollars. People are making money off of this tragedy now more than ever and there is no sign of slowing down. The survivors and dead are being used as mere puppets to generate profit and serve particular agendas.

What happened to jews, gypsies and homosexuals was terrible and should never happen again to anyone. But, I am simply sick and tired of people shoving The Holocaust down my throat, as if it was some kind of commodity or a franchise with a catchy slogan "NEVER FORGET".

Every week, people are reminded one way or another of the Holocaust. You should NEVER EVER FORGET it and if you do, then we will remind you again or we will just call you an anti-semite, even though millions of non jews died in the Holocaust.

Millions of people die in Africa from civil war and diseases, but no one cares!! Millions of civilians in WWII were also killed by the Nazis and others, but they are never remembered. Why??

It has been more than 70 years and Germans are still reminded of what their ancestors did and that they should feel guilty. (why???)

Why can't we just reflect on this tragedy and move on?? Do we really need to keep spending money on new museums and memorials in every city in America, while ignoring other genocides and tragedies?? ! Dead U.S. civilians and soldiers don't even get the same treatment!! I am fine

This really has to stop.,Israel and other agencies are keeping this industry alive because it works well for them and it fits their agenda. It gives them a green card to do what they please in the Middle East and at the same time make Israelis and the rest of the world feel guilty about what happened 70 years ago.

Never Forget™
 
E

EmCeeGramr

Member
This is actually a very interesting issue.

Unfortunately, even in the "intellectual" world it always gets bogged down in name-throwing and hyperbole, so I'm not seeing good things in store for this thread! At all!
 
F

Frank the Great

Banned
Considering the massive amount of serious problems in the world, complaining about society's obsession with not forgetting the systematic murder of millions of people is damn petty.
 
Monocle

Monocle

Member
How dare people commemorate one of the worst atrocities in history! We could make new malls or theme parks or blockbuster films with all that cash being wasted on monuments to honor the dead. I mean, they're not even alive anymore—they won't mind if we stop sobbing over their graves. And besides, I didn't know them personally, so why should I care? Hell, the Holocaust happened in a completely different country!

With that resolved, we can move on to the next issue on the agenda. Slavery: what the fuck are all those black people complaining about?
 
G

gumshoe

Banned
Frank the Great said:
Considering the massive amount of serious problems in the world, complaining about society's obsession with not forgetting the systematic murder of millions of people is damn petty.
Click to expand...

I am not trying to tell people to forget about the holocaust. I am just questioning the motives behind the use of this tragedy now.
 
F

Frank the Great

Banned
gumshoe said:
I am not trying to tell people to forget about the holocaust. I am just questioning the motives behind the use of this tragedy now.
Click to expand...

I know, my point still stands. I think it's petty to question their motives.
 
G

gumshoe

Banned
and as I thought, people are already ignoring what I am trying to say and just focusing on one or two statements...
 
Monocle

Monocle

Member
gumshoe said:
and I as I thought, people are already ignoring what I am trying to say and just focusing on one or two statements...
Click to expand...
Maybe because those statements are ludicrous and insensitive enough to warrant a reaction?
 
G

gumshoe

Banned
Salmonax said:
What circles do you travel in that people are harassing you about the holocaust on a weekly basis?
Click to expand...
:lol :lol (I am not laughing at you. I just thought the comment was funny)

It is pretty hard to not open the TV, read the newspaper, go online without seeing something about the Holocaust.
 
A

Apath

Member
I do agree with you in part, but just want to point out the ancestors is a little misleading when it did happen 70 years ago. People are still alive who were involved, survivors and perpetrators.
 
E

EmCeeGramr

Member
Monocle said:
How dare people commemorate one of the worst atrocities in history! We could make new malls or theme parks or blockbuster films with all that cash being wasted on monuments to honor the dead. I mean, they're not even alive anymore—they won't mind if we stop sobbing over their graves. And besides, I didn't know them personally, so why should I care? Hell, the Holocaust happened in a completely different country!

With that resolved, we can move on to the next issue on the agenda. Slavery: what the fuck are all those black people complaining about?
Click to expand...

Well, one argument is that while the Holocaust was the worst example of genocide in history, the commemoration and films and books and histories about it have placed it in a special league of its own that ends up overshadowing other acts of genocide by "virtue" (ugh, I tried to think of a more appropriate term, I swear) of its scale.

The Holocaust and Hitler and the Nazis are transformed from real historical events and people into larger-than-life buzzwords and rhetoric that only cheapens what happened. They become catchphrases for "the worst thing ever!" without any kind of meaning anymore.
 
M

Mandark

Small balls, big fun!
gumshoe said:
It has been more than 70 years and Germans are still reminded of what their ancestors did and that they should feel guilty. (why???)
Click to expand...

Dude, slavery was even longer ago, and white Americans have to keep hearing about that! It's bullshit!



There's a serious case to be made that the memory of the Holocaust is sometimes used cynically or counterproductively (Tom Friedman said that Israel was becoming "Yad Vashem with an army").

Unfortunately your vague, rambling, hyperbolic post is not that case.
 
G

gumshoe

Banned
Kenak said:
I do agree with you in part, but just want to point out the ancestors is a little misleading when it did happen 70 years ago. People are still alive who were involved, survivors and perpetrators.
Click to expand...

yeah, I actually was hesitated when I wrote that part, but I wrote it anyways, because it has been more than 3 generations.
 
K

Korey

Member
gumshoe said:
:lol :lol (I am not laughing at you. I just thought the comment was funny)

It is pretty hard to not open the TV, read the newspaper, go online without seeing something about the Holocaust.
Click to expand...
Actually, I haven't thought about the Holocaust for at least a month or more before encountering this thread
 
S

Shurs

Member
Some people will always exploit a tragedy to further their own agenda. This happens all of the time. 9/11, and the Bush administration's actions in Iraq come to mind immediately. I understand your frustration, but at the same time, that doesn't mean that people should forget about it. I know it's an elementary lesson, but there is truth to the saying 'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it'.
 
LQX

LQX

Member
gumshoe said:
Before I start, and before people start jumping to conclusions (gaffers LOVE to do that) I want to say that I am not talking about the actual genocide. I am talking about the Holocaust Industry, which is definitely worth billions of dollars. People are making money off of this tragedy now more than ever and there is no sign of slowing down. The survivors and dead are being used as mere puppets to generate profit and serve particular agendas.

What happened to jews, gypsies and homosexuals was terrible and should never happen again to anyone. But, I am simply sick and tired of people shoving The Holocaust down my throat, as if it was some kind of commodity or a franchise with a catchy slogan "NEVER FORGET".

Every week, people are reminded one way or another of the Holocaust. You should NEVER EVER FORGET it and if you do, then we will remind you again or we will just call you an anti-semite, even though millions of non jews died in the Holocaust.

Millions of people die in Africa from civil war and diseases, but no one cares!! Millions of civilians in WWII were also killed by the Nazis and others, but they are never remembered. Why??

It has been more than 70 years and Germans are still reminded of what their ancestors did and that they should feel guilty. (why???)

Why can't we just reflect on this tragedy and move on?? Do we really need to keep spending money on new museums and memorials in every city in America?? This isn't Starbucks, you know. Hell, the Holocaust DIDN'T even happen in the U.S.!! Dead U.S. civilians and soldiers don't even get the same treatment!!

This really has to stop.,Israel and other agencies are keeping this industry alive because it works well for them and it fits their agenda. It gives them a green card to do what they please in the Middle East and at the same time make Israelis and the rest of the world feel guilty about what happened 70 years ago.


Holocaust Memorial

Coming soon to a down town near you!!

Never Forget™
Click to expand...

Ridiculous. GAF is a lot or pro things but I notice Israel and religion get a lot of shit around here with no fallout even with antisemitic crap like this. Yes that's what it is. If this was a thread with the same tone on gays or blacks telling them to move on from some issue this guy would be gone.

And you really want people to move on from something like that? There people still living that escaped the Holocaust. And you mentioning whats going on in Africa is precisely why we should not move on from informing people about what happened. Moreover Israel is one of the most vocal countries on the genocides that have taken place in Africa.
 
Nameless

Nameless

Member
Not up to speed on banned memes but this thread is a one of those things the Wiley Coyote could never quite land the Road Runner in, if I've ever seen one.
 
C

CabbageRed

Member
What? I virtually never think about the Holocaust and if it is mentioned weekly to me, well then it is clearly sailing right past me without registering.

gumshoe said:
and as I thought, people are already ignoring what I am trying to say and just focusing on one or two statements...
Click to expand...

You're not supposed to play that card until you are certain that you've already been thrown into the brier patch, silly rabbit.
 
S

Servizio

I don't really need a tag, but I figured I'd get one to make people jealous. Is it working?
You know, I watched Schindler's List for the first time the other night. I'm trying to check off a few movies from the various best-of, most acclaimed, etc lists. It's a lot more exhausting than you'd think, considering how many 'great' movies are three hours long and emotionally draining. Great movie, but tiring.

I don't think this thread is going to end as well as Schindler's List did. Pass the popcorn.
 
C

ClovingWestbrook

Banned
OP, as someone who lost quite a few relatives to the Holocaust, I would like you to answer me this: how long is an acceptable amount of time to continually bring up the Holocaust for you? One generation? Two generations? When is it not acceptable any longer? I am married to a black woman and although slavery ended quite some time ago in this country she mentions it quite a bit. Why? Because racism is still rampant. Would you like to know why the Holocaust is mentioned as often as it is? Antisemitism is still rampant in many parts of the world.

When I was attending Hebrew school as a child, I had the opportunity to meet a survivor of the Holocaust and hear her stories, not to mention see the tattoo that is an eternal memory for her of what she and millions of others had to endure. Is it time for her to stop telling the story? Should she and the rest of the survivors just shut up because as you say "its been 3 generations"?
 
G

gumshoe

Banned
Servizio said:
You know, I watched Schindler's List for the first time the other night. I'm trying to check off a few movies from the various best-of, most acclaimed, etc lists. It's a lot more exhausting than you'd think, considering how many 'great' movies are three hours long and emotionally draining. Great movie, but tiring.

I don't think this thread is going to end as well as Schindler's List did. Pass the popcorn.
Click to expand...

I have never seen it. Is it tiring just because of the length?
 
K

Korey

Member
LQX said:
Ridiculous. GAF is a lot or pro things but I notice Israel and religion get a lot of shit around here with no fallout even with antisemitic crap like this. Yes that's what it is. If this was a thread with the same tone on gays or blacks telling them to move on from some issue this guy would be gone.
Click to expand...
I agree, there's more to this story than the OP is letting on. Who gets "harassed" about the Holocaust on a regular basis?
 
G

GillianSeed79

Member
gumshoe said:
and as I thought, people are already ignoring what I am trying to say and just focusing on one or two statements...
Click to expand...


It's not like they are selling Schindlers List action figures if the point you are trying to make is the holocaust becoming commercialized. The fact I played against a kid on Live with the gamer tag Aushwitz makes me want them to open museums in every state. If you are mad about the all Germans=Nazis stereotype grow up. I'm 30, white and live in America. Not a day goes by that I'm not reminded that my ancestors enslaved an entire race or just killed or relocated them as was the case with native americans. Did I have anything to do with that? No. Did I have slaves? No. Do I hand out blankets with TB to anyone with a feather on his head? No. Does it make it less shitty this stuff actually hapened? No.
 
G

gumshoe

Banned
LovingSteam said:
OP, as someone who lost quite a few relatives to the Holocaust, I would like you to answer me this: how long is an acceptable amount of time to continually bring up the Holocaust for you? One generation? Two generations? When is it not acceptable any longer? I am married to a black woman and although slavery ended quite some time ago in this country she mentions it quite a bit. Why? Because racism is still rampant. Would you like to know why the Holocaust is mentioned as often as it is? Antisemitism is still rampant in many parts of the world.

When I was attending Hebrew school as a child, I had the opportunity to meet a survivor of the Holocaust and hear her stories, not to mention see the tattoo that is an eternal memory for her of what she and millions of others had to endure. Is it time for her to stop telling the story? Should she and the rest of the survivors just shut up because as you say "its been 3 generations"?
Click to expand...

Please don't get me wrong!! I am talking about the industrialization of the Holocaust. I don't want people to forget about it. I am simply fed up with the way some people are using it and profiting from it.

I probably didn't make this clear in the OP, but this what I wanted the thread to be about. (look at the title) I wanted to discuss how this tragedy is now losing the faces of the victims and is turned into an industry.
 
T

ToxicAdam

Member
Millions of people die in Africa from civil war and diseases, but no one cares!! Millions of civilians in WWII were also killed by the Nazis and others, but they are never remembered. Why??
Click to expand...


The amount of aid sent to africa in the past 50 years : 2.3 trillion dollars

197 million dollars was raised for the WWII memorial in D.C. - 4.4 million people visit per year. That is just one memorial, thousands of such displays are all around the world and are visited and honored by millions of millions more people each year.
 
C

ClovingWestbrook

Banned
gumshoe said:
Please don't get me wrong!! I am talking about the industrialization of the Holocaust. I don't want people to forget about it. I am simply fed up with the way some people are using it and profiting from it.
Click to expand...

When you say profit from it, what do you mean? For instance, do you find it objectionable that there are a few museums dedicated to the Holocaust? Is your aim purely at lets say the country of Israel who uses the Holocaust during diplomatic conversations with other countries? I suppose I am not too sure by what you mean profit from.
 
T

ToxicAdam

Member
Shurs said:
Some could argue that willful ignorance is what allowed the Holocaust to happen in the first place.
Click to expand...


It's a nice thought, but you need to be more direct ... willful ignorance from whom? Who was in a position to stop it?
 
G

GillianSeed79

Member
Also, I think you are making a jump to conclusions. The Holocaust was horrible. Does that mean I agree with Israel's treatment of Palestinians or foreign policy? No.
 
D

Dead Man

Member
Good luck with this thread, the anti semitism card has already been thrown. For what it's worth, I don't think the OP was trying to downplay the Holocaust, so much as wonder why it gets raised so often by people who were not directly involved (see crazy crying student thread a while ago) and why other atrocities that are more recent or occurred around the same time don't get mentioned.

Edit:
ChubbyHuggs said:
This thread reminded me of this thread, "Professor + Lecture Hall + Students + The holocaust = Confrontation + Tears."
Because of this video: Jewish girl tries to criticise Dr. Norman Finkelstein
Click to expand...
That's the incident I was thinking of. Thanks!
 
S

Shurs

Member
ToxicAdam said:
It's a nice thought, but you need to be more direct ... willful ignorance from whom? Who was in a position to stop it?
Click to expand...

The people who allowed their neighbors to be treated like sub-humans.
 
F

Forearms

Member
There are times I feel this way, but then I realize that it may be the first time that someone has read an article, seen a documentary, or been to a WWII/Holocaust museum.

If you look at it that way you will appreciate it. Without this type of event being remembered ("shoved down your throat"), someone else wouldn't be exposed to it and history would have a greater chance of repeating itself.

Knowledge is power...
 
T

ToxicAdam

Member
Shurs said:
The people who allowed their neighbors to be treated like sub-humans.
Click to expand...


Who are "the people"? The other citizens who would meet a similar fate if they spoke out? Or the European countries that were no match for the German war machine?
 
G

Gallbaro

Banned
In this country, all you need to do is look at the amount of Holocaust memorials and their funding in direct comparison to the amount of Native American memorials and their funding.

It does not take much to see their is a problem somewhere in the memorial representation of this country.
 
P

Particle Physicist

between a quark and a baryon
Should we get rid of all war museums then?

I don't see how apart from the creation of museums (most of which are non-profit), how exactly people have been profiting off the holocaust.
 
G

gumshoe

Banned
LovingSteam said:
When you say profit from it, what do you mean? For instance, do you find it objectionable that there are a few museums dedicated to the Holocaust? Is your aim purely at lets say the country of Israel who uses the Holocaust during diplomatic conversations with other countries? I suppose I am not too sure by what you mean profit from.
Click to expand...

I am not against holocaust museums, now that I think about, I am not sure why I wrote that in my op. Maybe because of the costs of maintaining such museums??

This is what I am talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9lNkXiCP0I&feature=related
 
G

gutter_trash

Banned
many bad things have happened in the last century that have been totally forgotten.
Cambodia, Armenia.

And many recent genocides that have had little action from the West to stop them such as Darfour and Rwanda

I do agree with you OP, the Holocaust does get its "marketing" attention more so than any other major genocidal atrocity of the last century

it is interesting how the other genocides get completely forgotten in comparison
 
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