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Kotaku's 7 month investigation into Star Citizen's development

apav

Member
i got this "game" with a video card last year. I installed it and like walked around this slideshow space station deck. I then uninstalled and never looked back.

It's certainly not for everyone. But many people don't realize the game is still in its early alpha stages and there is currently very little you can do. If you played it before December, then you weren't around for the release of the Persistent Universe which is by far the biggest update to the game.

I'd say reinstall it when 3.0 goes live if you want to see what the finished game will be like. Going from walking around ArcCorp to being able to fly around an entire star system and land on planets in 3.0 is like a completely different game.
 

Zalusithix

Member
Your right, it's 66 ships for 227$ a pop.
Still ridiculous lol.
This is why developers add shit like this in game because dumb people with more expendable money than me buy them and give them reasons to continue too.

FTFY. You're trying to apply some absolute scale for what qualifies as dumb... which is dumb. $15,000 for a billionaire is a drop in the bucket. They could wipe their ass with that amount of money and not care. Them spending that amount of money is hardly dumb. Meanwhile a person saddled with tens of thousands of dollars in debt that's living paycheck to paycheck, and can hardly make rent would be dumb putting $60 into the the game. Everything is relative.
 

Eolz

Member
I'm not a fan of the headline and how the article ends, since given how long the feature is, most people will only read that (or the quotes some people nitpick), but at least it's giving people a look into AAA development from what I'm seeing in this thread.

Really wonder what would people think of their favorite GTA, MGS, etc... if they knew about how it is behind the scenes, especially during the first years where nothing is shown/told to the public.
 
It's been 4+ years. I guess that's not long if your points of reference are debacles like FFXV, The Last Guardian and Duke Nukem Forever.

They are producing impressive results, like their recent stage demo. But like the article stated, I don't see a game. I saw a tech demo. I've seen "modules." Even just narrowing it down to just Squadron 42, I've only seen cut-scenes from that.

And let's not forget that they're swelling up to near 400 employees, and with no release date in sight sooner or later the company still stop being sustainable. Exactly how long can they still go?

Well you seem to have missed huge post mode by Comandr let me put the most pertinent part of it

If you have any doubts, play it yourself. The game frequently features "Fly Free" weekends around conventions where you can download the game and play around in all the current features.


There is a playable alpha. Those on screen demos actually have release windows 2.6 for citizencon, 3.0 for end of year. It really isn't as nebulous or mysterious as you are trying to imply.

What an insane article. I've been reading for an hour and I'm still not done. Was Kotaku trying to simulate the Star Citizen backing experience? :p My props, for sure.

Problems with this game as far as I can see from what I have read so far:

-Initially: no planning/Never-ending stretch goals/Developers stretched too thin
-Terrible management
-Crytek was absolutely the wrong decision
-Chris Roberts is an egomaniac
-Horrible work environment and culture

I wonder if this game is going to be any good if it ever comes out.

None of the things you mentioned equates to the funfactor of released product. I can't speak for personal things that happen in company but it is odd you mention cryengine being a mistake. That was an opinion of one of the articles "sources" what about the other one?
But not all my sources agreed that CryEngine was a mistake. One agreed with Roberts that Unity and Unreal, the other two serious options, would have thrown up roughly the same problems. It might have made more sense for CIG to build their own engine, but at the beginning of this project, the scale was so much smaller that it would have been impractical.

They made the best choice at the time. It helps out in multiple ways, while it takes more work, people can see more progress instead of waiting years before seeing anything. Alot of things that were claimed to be impossible, would have been met with even more derision and yet there is a playable alpha with many features thought to be impossible, yet that doesn't silence some critics, they move on to another specific feature or goal. This seemingly will continue till full title is released, that the list is getting shorter with each release to base.


Most people who were invested already knew about these problems because Chris Roberts openly speaks about the problems with developing this game and how they plan to fix things.

Which speaks volumes about alot of reactions in any Star Citizen related thread. For people following game, manufactured or misinformed criticism stick out. Doesn't seem to stop a select few though.


Your right, it's 66 ships for 227$ a pop.
Still ridiculous lol.
This is why developers add shit like this in game because dumb people buy them and give them reasons to continue too.

No not every ship is valued the same. You don't have to purchase the package, all ships are earnable in game. Getting upset at an option simply for it merely existing is just as silly. No one has to buy it. I purchased a few ships myself and even if I did have 15 grand to waste.... I still wouldn't purchase that package. The least expensive package is $45 and they are shown from least expensive to most expensive. And there is no reason to purchase the package unless you MUST have almost every ship and variant in the game. And the package includes duplicates of some ships and variants. Which I am sure only appeals to very very few.
 

Zalusithix

Member
And the package includes duplicates of some ships and variants. Which I am sure only appeals to very very few.
Yep, the contents of the package are less than optimal for a number of reasons. It's purely a package for those with the means and desire to contribute large sums of money to the game's development. Nothing more. You don't even get access to the million mile high club. =P
 

Gxgear

Member
Gonna save this piece for later tonight after work, but my gut feeling says there's too much money involved for greed not to mess things up.
 

KAP151

Member
"Will it be fun to play? Not sure"

Yeah... might want to address that before taking any more orders for ships that cost a brand new car.
 

GOOCHY

Member
I'm not a fan of the headline and how the article ends, since given how long the feature is, most people will only read that (or the quotes some people nitpick), but at least it's giving people a look into AAA development from what I'm seeing in this thread.

Really wonder what would people think of their favorite GTA, MGS, etc... if they knew about how it is behind the scenes, especially during the first years where nothing is shown/told to the public.

Most AAA games are already done and on the shelf in the time it has taken Star Citizen to get to Alpha, with far, far lower budgets.
 

Zalusithix

Member
"Will it be fun to play? Not sure"

Yeah... might want to address that before taking any more orders for ships that cost a brand new car.

Good luck with your (at most) $2,500 new car...

Beyond that, anybody pledging to a crowdfunded project should do so with the knowledge that the end product is not a guarantee. Anybody that doesn't understand that should not pitch in. Anybody that doesn't want to put in the effort to understand what they're getting into should not pitch in. The worst part about crowdfunding is the people that don't understand it, and treat it purely as a preorder system.
 
It's a balance thing to keep from there being too many of them in the PU in the beginning. It's the largest capital class ship that's not persistent (as in it doesn't stay vulnerable on the server when you log off). The cap ships are all behind a large paywall for this reason.

Mind you, these are ships that can't be used by a single person. There's no point to them unless you're part of an organization large enough to man one.

How is it delusional? It's meant to illustrate that everything in the universe is connected. You don't load into another level when you get into an elevator.

Cause it s a stupid fucking waste of time that will bottleneck gameplay?

There's probably a reason nobody else came up wih 'real time' elevators.

....and if this is an example of his decision making I think it's fuckin hilariously stupid.

Explain that bottleneck

Waiting?

He had to wait in the demo and the station was empty.

I can only imagine the greifing to be had with those elevators XD
 

Disxo

Member
Cause it s a stupid fucking waste of time that will bottleneck gameplay?

There's probably a reason nobody else came up wih 'real time' elevators.

....and if this is an example of his decision making I think it's fuckin hilariously stupid.
Explain that bottleneck
 
Most AAA games are already done and on the shelf in the time it has taken Star Citizen to get to Alpha, with far, far lower budgets.

The scale of the game changed dramatically during development because of the budget they received. Also, no AAA game comes close to the scale that is StarCitizen.
 

~Cross~

Member
I want people that are heavily invested in this game to set their own timetables on when they expect to reach major mile stones and the general quality of them. Lets say for example that you keep CIGs own timetable. SQ42 and 3.0 by the end of 2016 and be fucking game changing BDSSGE or whatever. Then what you will do if they dont meet that expectation.

There comes a time where you just have to let yourself be disappointed to actually break free from those fetters. The sunk cost a lot of people are experiencing is just going to get worse if you keep dumping on it.

Its a small step, but I've seen people go full bitter on the whole project in the course of a week. And honestly, I think its better being a bitter cranky fuck when it comes to the game and be pleasently surprise if it turns out good than being on the hype train for years only to have it derail entirely at release or slowly die in irrelevance when it continues to redo content and it keeps bleeding personnel until it shutters and the only people left are the director and two of his buddies.
 
A character model. I think they are referencing the vibrancy and realisation of the world. Which is significantly easier to do in a tight focus 3rd person shooter than it is in a sprawling space opera.

Exactly, I think The Order level of details is referencing, the amount and detail of the world itself, from character to backgrounds, The Order has an incredible amount of detail, because is a very constrained and linear world.

You can't have that level of detail on a huge space opera game.
 

Steel

Banned
Exactly, I think The Order level of details is referencing, the amount and detail of the world itself, from character to backgrounds, The Order has an incredible amount of detail, because is a very constrained and linear world.

You can't have that level of detail on a huge space opera game.

You should have probably read the replies to that post that proved that they were specifically mentioning characters.
 
There is no engine that would be as flexible (or scale able) as needed for the project. If anything, in hindsight Crytek was absolutely the right pick of the bunch since due to the issues surrounding them, CGI was able to hire some of the engine developers who are reworking the engine now for SC to get it to where it needs to be for the project.

I'm trying to think of what would have been a better choice than going Crytek?

Space Flight/combat
Multiplayer
FPS Combat
Good 3rd person animation
Size...scope

I think...take Crysis 3 and slap Freespace 2 Open on top of it, then throw in aspects of SW: The Old Republic.

You've gotta make all that stuff work as one.
 

pompidu

Member
FTFY. You're trying to apply some absolute scale for what qualifies as dumb... which is dumb. $15,000 for a billionaire is a drop in the bucket. They could wipe their ass with that amount of money and not care. Them spending that amount of money is hardly dumb. Meanwhile a person saddled with tens of thousands of dollars in debt that's living paycheck to paycheck, and can hardly make rent would be dumb putting $60 into the the game. Everything is relative.

Of course this is nothing to a billionaire but not everyone is rich. these practices influence how other games are made, the freenium model has already infected AAA 60$ and the small group of people are fueling that model. I'm reality are these people dumb, no, but the purchasing habits are. They are the reason all the bullshit is in most games now. And dropping 15,000$ with zero ROI is extremely dumb practice to participate in.
 

Eolz

Member
Gonna save this piece for later tonight after work, but my gut feeling says there's too much money involved for greed not to mess things up.

That's not a greed problem, good read.

Most AAA games are already done and on the shelf in the time it has taken Star Citizen to get to Alpha, with far, far lower budgets.

I wonder what you consider AAA games. There's a lot of games in development that you don't see or hear about (even from some of the leakers here) until 1-2 years before release.
Agreed for the budget though, but it's not like SC has already used all this money. This article is the kind of stuff you hear when a game is actually released, not during development, that's unheard of.
 
Man, this article is great. It isn't really painting a good picture of Star Citizen, but it sure is fascinating to read. Props to Kotaku UK for digging into this.

In another part, I'm hoping they touch on overtime at RSI because Chris Roberts' "I don't believe in overtime" combined with his later "don't be passive aggressive and make excuses--get it done" seem kinda incompatible to me.
 

Stiler

Member
What astounds me most is the people who keep talking about this game (with the scope that it has now) should somehow have been done, finished, polished, and released by now.

I mean, do they have zero understanding of development time?

Look at games like GTA, Elder Scrolls, Witcher 3, etc. These types of games usually take 5 or more years to make.

Star Citizen didn't start full production until 2013, roughly 3 1/2 years or so.

The game is a larger and more complex game to make then any of the others I mentioned above.

So why do people keep harping on the time it's taking or acting like it should somehow magically be done?

I mean I can understand some people who wanted the single-player game first like originally planned, but some people expect the full game , the whole scope that's changed to somehow be done or nearly complete within the time frame that's even shorter then games like GTA. It just astounds me.

From reading the article it sounds to me like there was a rocky start and some trying times, with Chris having a vision and wanting to keep control of htat vision and not let other people steer him away from things. Some people work that way, some people don't like it, but they are free to leave if that's the case.

It's like making movies. You have some great directors that give actors a lot of leeway, let them ad-lib lines, take in the actors and other peoples suggestions and change the movie up.

Then you have directors that want it their way, say the line the way it's wrote, no deviation. A lot of these directors are known for being difficult and pushing the actors hard (IE Francis Ford Coppola, Cameron, Herzog, etc).
 
Wanted to buy this game.
Went to his website and saw a 14000 dollar ship.
Decided to not spend any cash at all.
Will buy it when finished in a sale.

I'm having a hard time putting it into precise words but it definitely feels shady as shit to continue selling stuff like that, it's easily in the same territory as MTX whaling.
 

Man God

Non-Canon Member
maxresdefault.jpg

I love how people act as if a 4 year development is a sign of disaster, when this game has been in development for 9 years, and yet everyone on Gaf obsesses with how great of a game it will be.
ffxv-176808.jpg

The same can be said of FFXV. 10 years of development for a singleplayer game!
But hey ho, I guess that's what you get for being a PC only title.

GetDcU7.jpg
 

ViciousDS

Banned
I don't even care at this point. Talking about the game isn't fun because it has such a rabid fan based, criticism is of limits.

I've paid so if it comes out, great , if it's shit....well lesson learned.



I pretty much equal the fan base to the likes of no man's sky and their fan base.


I believe this game will never release or it will release in a very bad state



nah, it will get released and it will be just like every other AAA game with the long development title. huge scope for the game means it will take quite a bit to make.........obviously
 

DSix

Banned
Sounds like opening 3 separate studios in the US (where there's a big lack of Cryengine knowledge) was the main mistake.
Then it was Chris trying to manage multiples studios of wildly varying levels of competence all by himself. This was a losing proposition from the start. Quantity of hires over quality is a very bad idea in this industry.

Refocusing the development effort in the UK with his brother was a first good decision. Snagging all of the Cryengine experts in Europe is a great second.

From the look of this article, at this point he probably should just close the US studios and keep it all in UK/EU. It feels like he carried a lot of dead weight over the past years (I can't fucking believe some guys said it was impossible to do third and first person, clowns).

In the end this article made me sympathize more with Chris eh.
 
maxresdefault.jpg

I love how people act as if a 4 year development is a sign of disaster, when this game has been in development for 9 years, and yet everyone on Gaf obsesses with how great of a game it will be.
ffxv-176808.jpg

The same can be said of FFXV. 10 years of development for a singleplayer game!
But hey ho, I guess that's what you get for being a PC only title.

Maybe it's not the 4 year development (though 4 years of development with still no end in sight is worrying for even the most reasonably optimistic human beings) but the GIANT article on the issues in the OP that people are taking as a sign of disaster? And if you think those games are untouchable then you've got some serious selective memory. For one, GAF isn't a hive mind, for two, both of those games definitely ARE receiving heavy criticisms (and even criticisms of criticisms) both on objective quality and ridiculous development time, and frankly I'm surprised you didn't point to No Man's Sky (though that one obviously did NOT turn out well). Don't pretend like you and Star Citizen are some special snowflake, you and others like you quit it with that petty vindictive nonsense.
 
FTFY. You're trying to apply some absolute scale for what qualifies as dumb... which is dumb. $15,000 for a billionaire is a drop in the bucket. They could wipe their ass with that amount of money and not care. Them spending that amount of money is hardly dumb. Meanwhile a person saddled with tens of thousands of dollars in debt that's living paycheck to paycheck, and can hardly make rent would be dumb putting $60 into the the game. Everything is relative.

I couldn't disagree more. Dropping 15k on something like this is dumb regardless of how you look at it. That 15k could make a life changing/altering path for someone else. That's half a year salary for the lower middle class.

But let's say your "one less minute flying my plane type" that could care less and even looks down on other people. 15k being a drop in the bucket doesn't make it a good ROI. $60 isn't a huge amount to me, but I'd be a dumb fool to drop it on an arbitrary item.
 
I couldn't disagree more. Dropping 15k on something like this is dumb regardless of how you look at it. That 15k could make a life changing/altering path for someone else. That's half a year salary for the lower middle class.

But let's say your "one less minute flying my plane type" that could care less and even looks down on other people. 15k being a drop in the bucket doesn't make it a good ROI. $60 isn't a huge amount to me, but I'd be a dumb fool to drop it on an arbitrary item.

Why are people so hung up on this? Yes, people should be using their money for more philanthropic purposes than buying ships on a video game if they have a lot of disposable income in my opinion. That being said people buy wine for thousands of dollars that they never drink also. Criticizing Star Citizen for putting a price tag on owning 60+ ships and trying to balance it isn't their fault. There is a gray market for these types of things, and plus look at rare weapon skins for some games .
 

Man God

Non-Canon Member
Is this part 1 of 5 on game development or SC's development specifically? I can't believe there are another 4 columns of dirt left on this game, though their might very well be by the time it is out or canceled.
 
Nothing wrong with selling 15k ship packages hooray for them if they have found that vein of gold to mine.

But please stop telling the world it's the greatest game, or will be, when it hasn't come together yet. Stop equating money collected with success and stop saying that its taking a long time because it's a AAA game in development when actually it's not - it's some other kind of thing, and we won't know what that actually is for another few years. It's like a modern art project or a weird new experience. What we see for the last couple of years may actuallly BE the game: endlessly putting out new promises new demos new ideas always chasing the state of the art, never stopping. At least until CR gets bored.
 

Aselith

Member
Is this part 1 of 5 on game development or SC's development specifically? I can't believe there are another 4 columns of dirt left on this game, though their might very well be by the time it is out or canceled.

It's a big project with a lot of studios and cultures. I'm sure there's tons of dirt to find.

Nothing wrong with selling 15k ship packages hooray for them if they have found that vein of gold to mine.

But please stop telling the world it's the greatest game, or will be, when it hasn't come together yet. Stop equating money collected with success and stop saying that its taking a long time because it's a AAA game in development when actually it's not - it's some other kind of thing, and we won't know what that actually is for another few years. It's like a modern art project or a weird new experience. What we see for the last couple of years may actuallly BE the game: endlessly putting out new promises new demos new ideas always chasing the state of the art, never stopping. At least until CR gets bored.

I mean they really don't. If you watch Chris Roberts talk about the game he talks about the technically aspects in fairly modest terms like "we think this is going to be really good" and stuff like that. It may be humble brag stuff since most of the stuff they show looks really good but he doesn't hype the thing to the moon the way I think a lot of people think he does.

He will occasionally mention how things are more advanced than what we've seen before but that's when he's showing things that are actually more advanced than what we've seen before.

Tbh most of his talks are pretty boring because they're mostly technical features that they're showing off and things like that. Very sausage factory stuff.
 

Zalusithix

Member
That 15k could make a life changing/altering path for someone else. That's half a year salary for the lower middle class.

That 15k is paying the salary of the developers working on the game right now... Do you think it goes into a pool of money that Chris Roberts dives in every night? There's real people developing the game with real families that need real money to survive. There's actually a heck of a lot of those people.

Or are these devs, artists, writers, etc not deserving of the money for some odd reason?
 
My problem isn't them selling ships for 15k, my problems are the people who purchase them

A dev studio the size of Star Citizen can easily burn through a couple of hundred thousand dollars every month. Do you have any idea how expensive it is to upkeep such a massive team?
Add to the fact that they spend twice as much on marketing.




No publishers would ever greenlight a project like Star Citizen. it might be the most ambitious game of all time.
 

Lautaro

Member
Just read the article and frankly I was expecting more chaos. For a game so overscoped and so much micro-management I think it could be worse, the problems they mention are normal when you are trying to push the boundaries of game development (hell, they are normal business in a lot of industries).

People are paying for an overscoped game and that's what they are getting, with all the issues that it can create. I'm among the people that try to play safe by cutting features and keeping the vision grounded but I can respect those that try to advance the industry.

Its also good that the article mentions both sides of any issue instead of going with cheap controversy, good job Kotaku!
 
So much misinformation here. I been around this since Day 1 and been following this almost attached to the hip for most of the past 4 years.

I'm not a dev but I would consider myself far more informed than virtually everyone on this forum, apart from the devs, and far ahead of everyone here.

Honestly I don't even know where to begin. It's facepalm inducing.

By no means do I know 100% of everything but AMA to clear up misconceptions, rights, wrongs you feel strongly about and I'll answer honestly.

EDIT: Here I am. Just to prove I'm not blowing smoke.
 

NoPiece

Member
I couldn't disagree more. Dropping 15k on something like this is dumb regardless of how you look at it. That 15k could make a life changing/altering path for someone else. That's half a year salary for the lower middle class.

That 15k probably went to pay some artists or programmers working on the game, so isn't that what you want? Money going to employ someone? It isn't like they take the 15k and digitize it into a ship, it is going back into the economy, probably to someone who couldn't afford a 15k digital spaceship.
 
Great article. Although it's a shame how open development leads to so much armchair dev management and hindsight arguments.

Can you folks at least wait until after Citizencon?
 

Venom Fox

Banned
So much misinformation here. I been around this since Day 1 and been following this almost attached to the hip for most of the past 4 years.

I'm not a dev but I would consider myself far more informed than virtually everyone on this forum, apart from the devs, and far ahead of everyone here.

Honestly I don't even know where to begin. It's facepalm inducing.

By no means do I know 100% of everything but AMA to clear up misconceptions, rights, wrongs you feel strongly about and I'll answer honestly.

EDIT: Here I am. Just to prove I'm not blowing smoke.
But your Bio says you club arrogant people. Should we club you? This post is the very definition of arrogance.
 
No. A lot of people here don't care to wait.

They don't care because this is something you usually see with failed projects usually some months after everyone is laid off, assets sold off and offices boarded up. That's the usual SOP.

Look what happened when CryTek almost closed its doors. You had thousands of armchair CEOs explaining how things were and how they should have innovated instead of conformed or conformed more instead of innovated to get on the console choo choo train.

It was relentless.

Plus bad news sells and it sells well.

Nobody wants to listen to positive stories all day about how wonderful other peoples lives are when their own lives are crushingly miserable. No. They want to see a full meltdown so they can feel better about themselves.

We Humans are pretty awful.
 

Aselith

Member
No. A lot of people here don't care to wait.

They don't care because this is something you usually see with failed projects usually some months after everyone is laid off, assets sold off and offices boarded up. That's the usual SOP.

Look what happened when CryTek almost closed its doors. You had thousands of armchair CEOs explaining how things were and how they should have innovated instead of conformed or conformed more instead of innovated to get on the console choo choo train.

It was relentless.

Plus bad news sells and it sells well.

Nobody wants to listen to positive stories all day about how wonderful other peoples lives are when their own lives are crushingly miserable. No. They want to see a full meltdown so they can feel better about themselves.

We Humans are pretty awful.

$10,000
 
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