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Palmer Luckey issue statement on actions on Nimble America

Krejlooc

Banned
That's another matter of course, but having them "implode" any time soon is a quite a long stretch considering they still have pretty much unlimited capital behind them.

None of that matters if developers don't embrace their ecosystem. Plenty of entities flush with cash have failed to make a dent in their respective markets. Fact is, looking at the market objectively from a developer's perspective, outside of being coerced into supporting oculus through direct funding, it doesn't make a lot of sense to support their products explicitly, when the alternative offers their audience as well. In the battle for market share, going with Oculus cuts you off from somewhere between 40-60% of the potential PC market. Considering the small scale of the market, those lost sales matter. By contrast, their competitor not only has a greater reach alone with their storefront, their api model eats oculus' lunch as well.

I've been making the comparison for a long while now, but Oculus reminds me of 3DFX. Just because they were the early name in the industry, doesn't mean they are safe.

If they can get to a more affordable "room-VR" solution before the first Vive remodel, maybe they can hang in there, but at this point it's about how Facebook handles this situation playing out before us today.

They are fighting against the current. you don't have to wait for a second revision to beat their headset in cost analysis. OSVR offers a headset that will match CV1's specs at 2/3 the price. Oculus fights tooth and nail against the "chinese clone" because they know they can't compete at the bottom line.

They will fail because their goal is to own a segmented niche of the VR market, when a fragmented VR market isn't feasible this early in the game.

In the long run, Oculus probably won't be undone by Valve or Sony. It'll likely be Google that takes the VR crown, IMO.
 

Fennec

Member
Statement by Brendan Iribe, CEO of Oculus:

XtX0btD.png


http://venturebeat.com/2016/09/23/palmer-luckey-i-am-deeply-sorry-that-my-actions-hurt-oculus/

"Everyone is free to support the causes they want, even the racist and misogynistic ones"
 

Dryk

Member
It doesn't matter how much Oculus want to say that Palmer doesn't represent the company's views. He's the inventor of their core product, a lot of people aren't going to ignore this.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
None of that matters if developers don't embrace their ecosystem. Plenty of entities flush with cash have failed to make a dent in their respective markets. Fact is, looking at the market objectively from a developer's perspective, outside of being coerced into supporting oculus through direct funding, it doesn't make a lot of sense to support their products explicitly, when the alternative offers their audience as well. In the battle for market share, going with Oculus cuts you off from somewhere between 40-60% of the potential PC market. Considering the small scale of the market, those lost sales matter. By contrast, their competitor not only has a greater reach alone with their storefront, their api model eats oculus' lunch as well.

I've been making the comparison for a long while now, but Oculus reminds me of 3DFX. Just because they were the early name in the industry, doesn't mean they are safe.



They are fighting against the current. you don't have to wait for a second revision to beat their headset in cost analysis. OSVR offers a headset that will match CV1's specs at 2/3 the price. Oculus fights tooth and nail against the "chinese clone" because they know they can't compete at the bottom line.

They will fail because their goal is to own a segmented niche of the VR market, when a fragmented VR market isn't feasible this early in the game.

In the long run, Oculus probably won't be undone by Valve or Sony. It'll likely be Google that takes the VR crown, IMO.
Man, you're right on about 3DFX and Oculus. I can absolutely see it ending that way for Oculus.

Difference being, Glide was better than the competition and thrived for years. Oculus has not thrived as of yet.

Regarding Chinese clones - what allows them to hit such low price points?
 

Krejlooc

Banned
Regarding Chinese clones - what allows them to hit such low price points?

Lack of funding into R&D. Valve and Sony and Oculus recoup their R&D costs through the cost of the headsets. Chinese clones still have R&D costs, mind you, but it's a lot less when your goal is to emulate an already known solution, rather than creating your own.
 

Hoo-doo

Banned

That's likely going to be Facebook's response as well.

This story will probably die down relatively soon. I mean, it almost sounds like the company is on the brink of crashing down reading this thread over here, but overall I think it's going to have very little actual impact on anything.
There's plenty of people actually in support of Palmer that simply don't exist on GAF. The world is shitty like that.

Palmer will likely be named and shamed on the internet for months though.
 

Fat4all

Banned
I feel like Facebook might be hoping Nintendo is gonna announce a date for the NX reveal so gamers are distracted over speculating on that before making a statement or quietly letting Luckey go.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
I feel like Facebook might be hoping Nintendo is gonna announce a date for the NX reveal so gamers are distracted over speculating on that before making a statement or quietly letting Luckey go.

What has a better chance of distracting people is Valve unveiling their latest advances in VR in the next week and a half at Dev Days.

October is actually going to be a huge month for VR, and Oculus is in a bad spot unless they match what Valve is going to unveil.
 
Iribe is in a tough spot and that post is really all he needed to say and all he could say.

You can't fire someone for their political views y'all. It really doesn't matter what Palmer did since he didn't do it in a capacity associated with Oculus and didn't break any laws.
 

Wallach

Member
What has a better chance of distracting people is Valve unveiling their latest advances in VR in the next week and a half at Dev Days.

October is actually going to be a huge month for VR, and Oculus is in a bad spot unless they match what Valve is going to unveil.

It's crazy how Oculus' ship has gone totally haywire since launch. Now they have this latest PR mess only a couple weeks before they announce Touch price and date. Zuckerburg must be salty about all these events since it looked like they were really poised to be in a great position up until hardware actually started getting boxed.
 

kami_sama

Member
What has a better chance of distracting people is Valve unveiling their latest advances in VR in the next week and a half at Dev Days.

October is actually going to be a huge month for VR, and Oculus is in a bad spot unless they match what Valve is going to unveil.

Please, let it be foveated rendering. If so I'm jumping into the cube as soon as possible.

On topic, the ceo response is as weak as it can get.
 

Fat4all

Banned
You can't fire someone for their political views y'all. It really doesn't matter what Palmer did since he didn't do it in a capacity associated with Oculus and didn't break any laws.

no one is saying they have to fire him because of his political views, just that they already have bad press, and are about to get a lot more.
 

True Fire

Member
Iribe is in a tough spot and that post is really all he needed to say and all he could say.

You can't fire someone for their political views y'all. It really doesn't matter what Palmer did since he didn't do it in a capacity associated with Oculus and didn't break any laws.

Racism isn't a political view, it's racism. The worst thing Trump has ever done was turn legitimate white supremacy into a political talking point.
 

spwolf

Member
the way i am trading it is "i did it for lower taxes", as I original thought. Lol.

You are going to accept an idiot for a president just to save 10% of your wealth (at max).
 

Krejlooc

Banned
It's crazy how Oculus' ship has gone totally haywire since launch. Now they have this latest PR mess only a couple weeks before they announce Touch price and date. Zuckerburg must be salty about all these events since it looked like they were really poised to be in a great position up until hardware actually started getting boxed.

There's a good reason Oculus seemingly went haywire once Facebook bought them. I'll just repost my summary of the past four years of events for people wondering why the wheels fell off for Oculus:

Here's how it all went down, for those confused as to the role of Oculus, Valve, Zenimax, etc:

In the early 90's, John Carmack and Michael Abrash, in their early 20's, teamed up to make Quake. While together, they discussed the future of technology and both generally agreed that Virtual Reality would eventually become a viable medium and would be the next major paradigm shift, just like 3D acceleration was that they were working on at the time. Early VR at this time was clunky and generally did not work, so they shelved their research into VR.

Later, in the late 2000's, Palmer Luckey is an enthusiast who has worked in research VR before, who has an enormous VR headset collection. He posts on a forum called MeantToBeSeen3D, a forum for VR enthusiasts and electrical engineers. He outlines a cheap VR system that uses a phone as the primary display, dramatically reducing the cost of BOM.

John Carmack is actually a user on this forum at the time, still working at iD, posting under a pseudonym. Still a believer in VR, he's been posting on the site for years without people knowing. He sees Luckey's post and gets in contact with him. Luckey sends Carmack a prototype of his hardware, and Carmack begins modding Doom 3 to work with the hardware. The reason he does this is because it makes sense to take an existing game that already works to do rapid testing of hardware, rather than building a new game from scratch for testing. Using this build of Doom 3 to test the hardware, they tweak the design until the new VR system is stereoscopic - the previous prototype was only monoscopic. At this point, John Carmack goes to Zenimax and asks them to invest in VR game development, wanting Doom 3 to be a full VR game. Zenimax declines. Carmack asks them to research VR in any capacity, Zenimax declines.

Palmer Luckey, at this point, gets recognition because John Carmack demonstrates the prototype rift at Quakecon, where it's known as "Carmack's VR." Valve, who employs Michael Abrash, has been secretly researching VR (and AR through Jeri Ellsworth) for several years now. They begin collaborating with Palmer Luckey, who reveals his plan to kickstart the rift as a consumer VR development platform.

With help from Valve and John Carmack on the pitch video, Oculus raises several millions of dollars in kickstarter money to produce the Oculus Rift DK1. The Rift DK1 is based primarily on the original rift prototype design, using a 7" tablet screen instead of a cell phone screen. Valve demonstrates their "Valve room" prototype to Oculus and teaches them a few important concepts for VR that Oculus lacked:

-Sub-millimeter accurate positional Tracking
-Low persistence display to reduce blurring
-fresnel lenses for increased FOV

among other discoveries. Oculus begins integrating Valve's research into their product, which eventually became the DK2.

At this same time, frustrated by Zenimax's refusal to enter VR, either via game development or hardware research, John Carmack leaves the studio he founded to join Oculus as their Chief Scientist. It is around this time that Oculus enters Series A funding - Brandon Iribie is brought in as CEO. Palmer Luckey officially loses control of his company, and is relegated to "Founder" status. Venture capitalists take over Oculus.

Shortly after the series A funding, Oculus begins entertaining bids to buy the company outright, making billions for the venture capitalists. They show Mark Zuckerberg the Valve room demo during this time, and Zuckerberg is reportedly sold within a few hours of meeting Oculus. He famously decides to buy Oculus within 24 hours.

After buying Oculus, Zuckerberg tries to hire many of Valve's VR team away from the company. Michael Abrash winds up leaving valve for Oculus, but the vast majority of the team remains at Valve. Contact between Oculus and Valve ends. Valve eventually announces they will license their VR technology to hardware manufacturers to produce on their own. The first licensee is HTC, who announces the Vive. At the first tradeshow where Oculus Rift and Vive appear together, Oculus doesn't allow Valve employees to try their hardware, and vice versa.

After seeing Oculus bought for billions, Zenimax tries to sue Carmack and Oculus for "stealing" their "prototype" from zenimax (i.e. the mod of doom 3). And that basically leads us to where we are today.

Part of the reason these devices are so delayed is because Oculus wasn't ready to tackle those problems when Zuckerberg bought them. Oculus, when they were an indie company, saw themselves as cogs in a greater VR economy, where other indie companies would solve other problems. Steam would be the unifying store front for VR deployment, Oculus would be the VR headset company, and other companies like Sixense would fill the controller void.

When Zuckerberg bought Oculus, they were set up as a company that was doing VR Headset development primarily. Zuckerberg wanted to turn them into a VR system company. They would solve headset VR problems, and storefront and ecosystem vr problems, and controller input problems, all in one. Oculus has had to rapidly expand to meet the demands of this kind of development.

By contrast, valve was already set up to tackle these problems. They already had a division working on controller design. They already had headset research. They already had an ecosystem developed. Oculus was a tiny company that got a ton of cash and then had to play catch up to Valve when Valve was already knee deep in development of all these things.

On a technical level, Oculus uses an outside-in positional tracking system. This has a number of occlusion problems that Valve's very novel and honestly revolutionary lighthouse system does not, because lighthouse operates on an inside-out tracking perspective. Much of the design of Touch is dedicated to solving long standing occlusion issues that outside-in positional tracking has to the best of their abilities. Hence the constellation rings, which surround your hand. In addition to playing catch up to Valve, they also had to solve for an occlusion problem that valve's tracking system does not have.

Nice informative post, but I don't get this part. Doesn't Vive have the same occlusion tracking problems. Their sensors have to see the lighthouse just like Oculus's camera has to see the LEDs. The occlusion problem is still there.



Oculus recommends dual forward facing cameras for their optimal setup:

YgJQqVt.png


The reason they recommend a forward facing setup is because of feasibility - outside-in positional tracking needs to communicate the beacons (cameras) to the host PC, while inside-out positional tracking done by lighthouse does not need to communicate between the beacons and host PC (the lighthouse beacons are dumb). This means the cameras for Oculus Touch need to be relatively close to the PC because of USB length.

For this reason, they need the controller to be visible from both front and back. This is also how their headset is designed - the headset has sensors on the back to track it when you turn around. The Vive works by setting two lighthouse beacons at a distance pointing down to cover the entire room. You don't need to surround your hand because you're not expected to be tracked from only one perspective. The Vive doesn't have photo sensors on the back of it's headset, because when you turn around, you're expected to be tracked by the opposite camera.

Oculus' tracking solution uses dual cameras for stereoscopic cues to enhance tracking from a forward facing position over a single camera, but still have more occlusion issues than two independent and separate lighthouse beacons.
 

Dryk

Member
Fuck you Brendan. That's my personal view on Oculus, but keep digging that grave deeper. An employee is a representative of your company.
I would say that often being an employee doesn't make you a representative of your company. But in this instance Luckey is the inventor of their flagship product and him having the fortune he's using to fund Nimble America is a direct result of that invention.
 

Hoo-doo

Banned
Apparently, funding a racist, anti-semitic and misogynistic shitposting and hatespeech group is a cause Brendan Iribe considers worth supporting.

Good to know. And on that note: Fuck Oculus.

There's nuance to this.
In no way is he supporting Palmer's shit. But it's Palmers personal views, it's his money. He wasn't representing Oculus.

As much as it makes Palmer a huge dickbag in the eyes of non-Trump supporters, there really isn't much more they can say.
 

Twentieth

Member
As expected. It's crazy how much crazy has been normalized in just a year.

Although I'm surprised by how normalized hate speech (and support for it) has become, these are feelings people have had for years, decades even. Trump cleared the way for people to openly admit their thoughts on the internet and other ways.

Keeping Luckey in their company might make sense in this current political circumstances, but it's the wrong way to go forward. Legitimizing the thoughts (and fears) which have propelled Trump by not publicly rejecting them might have a terrible, long-term impact even if Trump loses the election.
 

Seventy70

Member
Iribe is in a tough spot and that post is really all he needed to say and all he could say.

You can't fire someone for their political views y'all. It really doesn't matter what Palmer did since he didn't do it in a capacity associated with Oculus and didn't break any laws.

You couldn't fire someone if they were a racist? We don't know if Lucky is a racist for sure, but if he's supporting one, then it's not too far off.

There has been a stigma though about respecting whether or not someone is a Democrat or Republican due to the size of both parties. Now that some crazy fascist is running as a Republican, people feel the same somehow applies, but the standards have been completely turned upside down, so it's not OK.
 

Hoo-doo

Banned
You couldn't fire someone if they were a racist? We don't know if Lucky is a racist for sure, but if he's supporting one, then it's not too far off.

You might as well fire everyone that openly claims to support Trump then. Because those people are all associated with supporting racist ideals.

You'd be firing 40% of the country.
 

Bedlam

Member
There's nuance to this.
In no way is he supporting Palmer's shit. But it's Palmers personal views, it's his money. He wasn't representing Oculus.

As much as it makes Palmer a huge dickbag in the eyes of non-Trump supporters, there really isn't much more they can say.
Again, they obviously can make this choice and keep Palmer. They will have to deal with the consequences, however.
 

Seventy70

Member
You might as well fire everyone that openly claims to support Trump then. Because those people are all associated with supporting racist ideals.

You'd be firing 40% of the country.

Sure, but it comes down to the employer. It depends on the values of the employer. They can keep them if they want, but it doesn't look very good. Especially when the employee is so well known.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
Please, please don't let Carmack be okay with this.

Carmack is an enormous libertarian, and was described by police as a sociopath when he was arrested in highschool. I think John Carmack probably takes a robotic stance on issues, being the logical machine he is, so I doubt he gets caught up so much on the whole "hate an entire swath of people" stuff. But then again, he created quakecon, lol, so who knows.

He used to post about government oversight when he'd talk about his rocket company, and clearly doesn't like government interference into his scientific endeavors.

Bare minimum, John Carmack is probably too busy to spend his time funding shitposting.
 

tapedeck

Do I win a prize for talking about my penis on the Internet???
You might as well fire everyone that openly claims to support Trump then. Because those people are all associated with supporting racist ideals.

You'd be firing 40% of the country.
Yep.

Like it or not it sets a really bad precedent to fire someone based on who they're voting for.
 

thumb

Banned
You might as well fire everyone that openly claims to support Trump then. Because those people are all associated with supporting racist ideals.

You'd be firing 40% of the country.

Your ability to be a public face and liaison for a company is directly impacted by the way people see you. This event materially impacts Palmer Lucky's effectiveness in that role. They can't fire him for his politics, but they can fire him for no longer being able to do his job.
 

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
Apparently, funding a racist, anti-semitic and misogynistic shitposting and hatespeech group is a cause Brendan Iribe considers worth supporting.

Good to know. And on that note: Fuck Oculus.

Can someone post (or has somebody already posted) references to examples of these memes this group/movement is making? It's the first time I hear about that. A political movement that describes itself as being based on "shitposting" sounds bizarre.
 

spekkeh

Banned
Can't say I believe him, though there's just about enough plausible deniability that he only did it for his girl that his position remains somewhat tenable.

I think the biggest win for everyone is that he chose to openly endorse another candidate and not go down like some kind of righteous martyr. That would end him, but also invigorate the Trumpists.
 

Matt

Member
Yep.

Like it or not it sets a really bad precedent to fire someone based on who they're voting for.
If he were fired, it would absolutely not be for who he is voting for.

It would be for using massively poor judgment and through which causing grievous harm to the image of Oculus and Facebook.
 

Seventy70

Member
Yep.

Like it or not it sets a really bad precedent to fire someone based on who they're voting for.

You don't think there is a point where that stops being reasonable? If the absolute scum of the earth was running and a person was voting for them, do you think that person should be off the hook socially?
 
Carmack is an enormous libertarian, and was described by police as a sociopath when he was arrested in highschool. I think John Carmack probably takes a robotic stance on issues, being the logical machine he is, so I doubt he gets caught up so much on the whole "hate an entire swath of people" stuff. But then again, he created quakecon, lol, so who knows.

He used to post about government oversight when he'd talk about his rocket company, and clearly doesn't like government interference into his scientific endeavors.

Bare minimum, John Carmack is probably too busy to spend his time funding shitposting.

I thought along those lines. My hope is he looks at it as, "Luckey's actions are dragging down the work of this company, with no positive aspect to it. There is no upside to keeping him around. He needs to go."
 
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