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PlayStation 4 Pro Reviews

P

Pennywise

Member
Serious Sam said:
I think the biggest problem of Pro so far is that it doesn't give automatic performance boost across all of its library and instead you are at the mercy of each game developers to release a patch.

We heard the excuses and reasoning that Sony didn't want to break compatibility with 700 of titles, but have they actually tested how many games get broken? I just can't fathom that a game locked at 30fps or 60fps could break if they allowed maybe 10% more CPU power and 30% more GPU power when played original PS4 titles. This would fix FPS drops in so many games.

At least they should add a toggle for enthusiasts burred somewhere in the settings that allows to play all games in Pro mode. They could add disclaimers that "it's not guaranteed to function properly blabla", but at least we would have options.

As it is now Pro is good for 30-40 games and that's it.

Xbox One S has a slightly better specs which allows for more FPS in big majority of games, even though gains are small, still better than nothing. And how many games were broken? Exactly 0.

In any case, Sony will really have to do something about is, because when Scorpion comes out it will give massive performance boost to already released games, MS won't split its library like Sony did with Pro vs OG.
Click to expand...
A cpu that is slightly better and one that has vastly more power.

How can you even remotely think that's a good comparsion ?

And how exactly do you know that the scorpio will deliever a performance boost to the entire library ?
You can't.
 
A

AALLx

Member
Serious Sam said:
I think the biggest problem of Pro so far is that it doesn't give automatic performance boost across all of its library and instead you are at the mercy of each game developers to release a patch.

We heard the excuses and reasoning that Sony didn't want to break compatibility with 700 of titles, but have they actually tested how many games get broken? I just can't fathom that a game locked at 30fps or 60fps could break if they allowed maybe 10% more CPU power and 30% more GPU power when played original PS4 titles. This would fix FPS drops in so many games.

At least they should add a toggle for enthusiasts burred somewhere in the settings that allows to play all games in Pro mode. They could add disclaimers that "it's not guaranteed to function properly blabla", but at least we would have options.

As it is now Pro is good for 30-40 games and that's it.

Xbox One S has a slightly better specs which allows for more FPS in big majority of games, even though gains are small, still better than nothing. And how many games were broken? Exactly 0.

In any case, Sony will really have to do something about is, because when Scorpion comes out it will give massive performance boost to already released games, MS won't split its library like Sony did with Pro vs OG.
Click to expand...

Some games tie logic to framerate and will encounter game breaking bugs when the framerate is increased from 30fps to 60fps. Some games also don't have a hard 30fps lock but instead implements non-adaptive vsync which locks the fps to the nearest multiple refresh rate the monitor is capable of.

Now imagine a game that has both scenarios covered running at 30fps on a regular PS4, but with an actual framerate of 40~45fps. If you run that at a PS4 Pro without downgrading the specs, it'll suddenly start hitting 60fps, and any game logic tied to the framerate will suddenly break.

It isn't an issue on the XBox One S because the framerate gains are very miniscule (around the range of 0~3fps) and hitting the scenario described above is highly unlikely. Scorpio is still a year away and any speculation that we have will be just that, mere speculation.
 
C

Conduit

Banned
Serious Sam said:
Xbox One S has a slightly better specs which allows for more FPS in big majority of games,
Click to expand...


Jumeira said:
That's incorrect. No selection takes place, games that make use of certain fps implementation will receive a slight bump. It's not like patching is needed.
Click to expand...

Big majority? Highly unlikely. It is in just few games. Not in every game. Not in big majority of games. Ask dark10x. Watch the videos if you want.
 
S

Serious Sam

Member
AALLx said:
Some games tie logic to framerate and will encounter game breaking bugs when the framerate is increased from 30fps to 60fps. Some games also don't have a hard 30fps lock but instead implements non-adaptive vsync which locks the fps to the nearest multiple refresh rate the monitor is capable of.

Now imagine a game that has both scenarios covered running at 30fps on a regular PS4, but with an actual framerate of 40~45fps. If you run that at a PS4 Pro without downgrading the specs, it'll suddenly start hitting 60fps, and any game logic tied to the framerate will suddenly break.

It isn't an issue on the XBox One S because the framerate gains are very miniscule (around the range of 0~3fps) and hitting the scenario described above is highly unlikely. Scorpio is still a year away and any speculation that we have will be just that, mere speculation.
Click to expand...
You missed my point. I wasn't saying Sony should remove or alter FPS limits in games, they probably can't even do that nor should they. I am saying, if you play a game that has let's say 60FPS cap, and it has FPS drops to 40s on OG PS4, when you play the same game on PS4 Pro it shouldn't have these same FPS drops.

This is what FPS limit is for in the first place. If we were allowed to play patchless games in Pro mode FPS limit is what would prevent games from breaking, in theory at least.
 
S

Serious Sam

Member
OKK said:
Source.
Click to expand...

Source is common sense and first glimpse of that is the Xbox One S. Many games already run faster on it even thought only marginally. Xbox games are built with sociability in mind, especially now with Play Anywhere initiative and UWP platform. Anyway, here's your source:

"Halo 5 implements something called dynamic scaling, so as scenes get more complex, in order to maintain 60fps they will actually change the resolution that you're running at," he told GiantBomb (via Videogamer). "And they're not the only game that does this. So then if you run that game on Project Scorpio you're actually going to be at the max frame-rate of that game more often.
Click to expand...
 
O

OKK

Member
Serious Sam said:
Source is common sense and first glimpse of that is the Xbox One S. Many games already run faster on it even thought only marginally. Xbox games are built with sociability in mind, especially now with Play Anywhere initiative and UWP platform. Anyway, here's your source:
Click to expand...
Just to be clear. Are you talking about the whole library of already released X1 games or specific titles that will have performance boost?
 
Pakoe

Pakoe

Member
Sold my PS4 months ago, but don't see myself coming back with the PS4 Pro.
I still have a full HD TV and no HDR, so no real benefits for me. My PC will stay my main gaming platform for now, maybe by the time the Xbox Scorpio releases, i'll get one of the two.
 
F

Futaba

Member
Serious Sam said:
Source is common sense and first glimpse of that is the Xbox One S. Many games already run faster on it even thought only marginally. Xbox games are built with sociability in mind, especially now with Play Anywhere initiative and UWP platform. Anyway, here's your source:
Click to expand...
You are comparing a slightly overclocked version of the same configuration with a completely different configuration that as of yet nobody even has solid info on, if they do any major changes to cpu/gpu/memory it could very well introduce incompatibilities.

May be just fine for UWP titles, but that isn't the case for all existing xbox one games.

Also I agree with previous posts, we really need a PS4P OT, theres several threads for ps4pro now
 
S

Serious Sam

Member
OKK said:
Just to be clear. Are you talking about the whole library of already released X1 games or specific titles that will have performance boost?
Click to expand...

Well based on Phil Spencer interview, he said that games will suffer from less FPS drops and have more consistent performance when ran on Project Scorpio. If the game was 30FPS locked it will continue to be 30FPS locked, it will just have fewer/no FPS drops. This is the correct approach to mid gen console refresh, the way Sony does it is really awkward honestly.

In Digital Foundry where they show F1 2016 have same FPS drops on Pro as it does on OG PS4, what exactly is the reason for FPS to drop on Pro, would game really break if it didn't have these FPS drops? No, it would not.
 
H

Hasney

Member
Pakoe said:
Sold my PS4 months ago, but don't see myself coming back with the PS4 Pro.
I still have a full HD TV and no HDR, so no real benefits for me. My PC will stay my main gaming platform for now, maybe by the time the Xbox Scorpio releases, i'll get one of the two.
Click to expand...

If you have a decent PC, I can't see the point in getting a Scorpio. With the PS4/PS4 Pro, at least there will be some exclusives there, but PC V Scorpio is a slam dunk for the former.

Serious Sam said:
Well based on Phil Spencer interview, he said that games will suffer from less FPS drops and have more consistent performance when ran on Project Scorpio. If the game was 30FPS locked it will continue to be 30FPS locked, it will just have fewer/no FPS drops. This is the correct approach to mid gen console refresh, the way Sony does it is really awkward honestly.

In Digital Foundry where they show F1 2016 have same FPS drops on Pro as it does on OG PS4, what exactly is the reason for FPS to drop on Pro, would game really break if it didn't have these FPS drops? No, it would not.
Click to expand...

But would it break if they coded the game using hacks and workaround for specific timings? Yes it could.
 
O

OKK

Member
Serious Sam said:
Well based on Phil Spencer interview, he said that games will suffer from less FPS drops and have more consistent performance when ran on Project Scorpio. If the game was 30FPS locked it will continue to be 30FPS locked, it will just have fewer/no FPS drops. This is the correct approach to mid gen console refresh, the way Sony does it is really awkward honestly.
Click to expand...

I have yet to see or hear this comment from Phil Spencer. The comment that I remember (which is from the GB interview) is that some games will (to quote Spencer) "run a little better" if the game is using dynamic scaling. In these cases the games (for example Halo 5) will be running max resolution more often. Is this considered a "massive performance boost"? Opinions and all, but for me, it's not.
 
S

Serious Sam

Member
Hasney said:
But would it break if they coded the game using hacks and workaround for specific timings? Yes it could.
Click to expand...

Again, that's what FPS limits are for in the first place. It's very rare nowadays for game to be coded to specific timings, and even if it does, it's either locked to 30fps or 60fps.

Perfect example of this would be Street Fighter, especially on PC. What happens if you get FPS drops below 60 in that game? You get slow mo effect. So having a stable 60FPS is highly desirable. Which actually gives more weight to my point that even in games where logic is tied to FPS having fewer/no FPS is better.

So if we were to believe Sony the only reason we can't run all games in Pro mode is because it MIGHT break a handful of games out of 700 library? I just don't really believe it.
 
Quote

Quote

Member
Serious Sam said:
Again, that's what FPS limits are for in the first place. It's very rare nowadays for game to be coded to specific timings, and even if it does, it's either locked to 30fps or 60fps.

Perfect example of this would be Street Fighter, especially on PC. What happens if you get FPS drops below 60 in that game? You get slow mo effect. So having a stable 60FPS is highly desirable. Which actually gives more weight to my point that even in games where logic is tied to FPS having fewer/no FPS is better.

So if we were to believe Sony the only reason we can't run all games in Pro mode is because it MIGHT break a handful of games out of 700 library? I just don't really believe it.
Click to expand...
So why do you think they wont do it? Do you think there's even a 1% it isn't a technical reason?
 
G

GinoFelino

Member
Serious Sam said:
Again, that's what FPS limits are for in the first place. It's very rare nowadays for game to be coded to specific timings, and even if it does, it's either locked to 30fps or 60fps.

So if we were to believe Sony the only reason we can't run all games in Pro mode is because it MIGHT break a handful of games out of 700 library? I just don't really believe it.
Click to expand...

You're totally right.

Anyone can see it's totally in Sony's advantage not to have all games automatically improved for Pro.

That way, they can charge for Pro upgrades! And possibly dissuade people from buying it so they'll buy the Slim instead!

1453268635365368_animate.gif
 
U

User123456

Member
The way I see it, they should bury a setting for advanced users only where you allow the Pro to run at full speed in all games but you can't log into PSN (to prevent any possible bug from affecting online MP).
 
J

Jacksinthe

Banned
Serious Sam said:
Again, that's what FPS limits are for in the first place. It's very rare nowadays for game to be coded to specific timings, and even if it does, it's either locked to 30fps or 60fps.

Perfect example of this would be Street Fighter, especially on PC. What happens if you get FPS drops below 60 in that game? You get slow mo effect. So having a stable 60FPS is highly desirable. Which actually gives more weight to my point that even in games where logic is tied to FPS having fewer/no FPS is better.

So if we were to believe Sony the only reason we can't run all games in Pro mode is because it MIGHT break a handful of games out of 700 library? I just don't really believe it.
Click to expand...
More access to hardware.

If you don't understand what this does for development - stop posting.

No, no. Seriously. Stop bullshitting what you don't understand. You don't personally have to believe it - but don't spout your BS like you know what you are taking about because you don't. It's that simple.

When you give developers low level access to hardware, you don't start mucking around because there's no check box we must tick when sending our games to cert that says "yep, we are using low-level APIs". To sort out every fucking game at this point would be bananas. The best thing to do is keep it 1:1 to ensure compatability and not brick a console.
 
D

DBT85

Member
Checkerboard Render said:
I don't think that's the argument here exactly, I think it's more that as Pro sales go and devs start to target it more aggressively, the regular PS4 will receive less effort at optimization.

You'll have the pro with 1080p or checkerboard 4k, then have the PS4 version at...900p, sub 30fps with tearing, etc. Complaints will be met with "Well get a Pro what did you expect the PS4 is way weaker".

That's at least the more cynical take.
Click to expand...

I'm glad the argument has now swapped over. A week or so ago some people were concerned that the Pro just wouldn't get any support. Now that its shown to be getting support, people are worried deveopers will ignore the 50 million Base PS4 owners.

Even if Pro was the ONLY model on sale for the next 3 years, it likely STILL won't eclipse what PS4 has sold because of the price.
 
I

iRAWRasaurus

Banned
Serious Sam said:
Source is common sense and first glimpse of that is the Xbox One S. Many games already run faster on it even thought only marginally. Xbox games are built with sociability in mind, especially now with Play Anywhere initiative and UWP platform. Anyway, here's your source:
Click to expand...
smh
 
martino

martino

Member
DBT85 said:
I'm glad the argument has now swapped over. A week or so ago some people were concerned that the Pro just wouldn't get any support. Now that its shown to be getting support, people are worried deveopers will ignore the 50 million Base PS4 owners.

Even if Pro was the ONLY model on sale for the next 3 years, it likely STILL won't eclipse what PS4 has sold because of the price.
Click to expand...

it will matter because thoses spending the more will move to it.
 
Caayn

Caayn

Member
GinoFelino said:
Playstation 4 Pro [OT] The Pro stands for Professional
Click to expand...
What's professional about the PS4 Pro?
Jacksinthe said:
More access to hardware.

If you don't understand what this does for development - stop posting.

No, no. Seriously. Stop bullshitting what you don't understand. You don't personally have to believe it - but don't spout your BS like you know what you are taking about because you don't. It's that simple.

When you give developers low level access to hardware, you don't start mucking around because there's no check box we must tick when sending our games to cert that says "yep, we are using low-level APIs". To sort out every fucking game at this point would be bananas. The best thing to do is keep it 1:1 to ensure compatability and not brick a console.
Click to expand...
Strange, not too long ago you posted that games should benefit from PS4 Pro hardware. Now you're championing the lock to PS4 level hardware.
Jacksinthe said:
PS4 games should function and run slightly better, provided they aren't locked to a framerate, as clock speeds increase. You game won't take advantage of extra CUs or extra cores - but clock speeds are available.

But don't take my word for it, rumors have mentioned this, as well.

You're forgetting much of the hardware is the same. Taking advantage of new hardware requires an update. Using what is there at faster speeds does not.
Click to expand...
 
D

DBT85

Member
martino said:
it will matter because thoses spending the more will move to it.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I don't understand.

If we assume that the future sales are split 50:50, (I'm sure they won't be) then by next christmas, there will be 10m Pros and 60m PS4s. The year after that, 70m PS4s and 20m pros.

You don't fuck that many people over. I mean, Xbone still gets optimisations.
 
I

Imp the Dimp

Member
How does the PS4 Pro behave with 1440p monitors? Wonder if I should hook the Pro up to my 1080p monitor or to my 1440p Dell U2515H?
 
Caayn

Caayn

Member
Imp the Dimp said:
How does the PS4 Pro behave with 1440p monitors? Wonder if I should hook the Pro up to my 1080p monitor or to my 1440p Dell U2515H?
Click to expand...
You can't select 1440p output. Only 720p, 1080i, 1080p or 2160p.

So your 144p0 monitor will either upscale from 1080p or downscale from 2160p if your monitor supports that.
 
J

Jacksinthe

Banned
Caayn said:
What's professional about the PS4 Pro?
Strange, not too long ago you posted that games should benefit from PS4 Pro hardware. Now you're championing the lock to PS4 level hardware.
Click to expand...
Before we had kits in hand, knew the specs, etc.

No shit? No shit!

Btw, lots of us devs didn't know the changes until just recently. Not just hardware changes, but APIs for the new hardware.

Please, son.
 
I

Imp the Dimp

Member
Caayn said:
You can't select 1440p output. Only 720p, 1080i, 1080p or 2160p.

So your 144p0 monitor will either upscale from 1080p or downscale from 2160p if your monitor supports that.
Click to expand...

Thank you. Downscaling from 2160p sounds nice. How can I find out if the monitor does support it?
 
Caayn

Caayn

Member
Jacksinthe said:
Before we had kits in hand, knew the specs, etc.

No shit? No shit!

Btw, lots of us devs didn't know the changes until just recently. Not just hardware changes, but APIs for the new hardware.

Please, son.
Click to expand...
No. You posted that it should be able to take advantage of clock speeds regardless of API, which implies that there's no risk to compatibility. Now you're posting that taking advantages of unknown clock speeds can break compatibility. I find it silly that you're now telling people that they don't understand how programming works when you yourself said close to the same thing a few months ago. That's what I'm talking about.

Don't act all high and mighty just because you're a console dev.
GinoFelino said:
It's a joke referencing the Xbox One S 'The S is for Sexy' OT.
Click to expand...
Ah gotcha, thanks.
Imp the Dimp said:
Thank you. Downscaling from 2160p sounds nice. How can I find out if the monitor does support it?
Click to expand...
Most manufacturers deliver a table with supported resolution. You can check that. Alternatively you can simply feed it a 2160p signal and see what it does.
 
H

Hasney

Member
Serious Sam said:
So if we were to believe Sony the only reason we can't run all games in Pro mode is because it MIGHT break a handful of games out of 700 library? I just don't really believe it.
Click to expand...

How do you know without taking the time to test every game though? That's resource intensive and it's clear that they want this to be 100% compatible with PS4 software.

That's why I'm sure that Scorpio is going to do something similar, but maybe not for first party games. With such a bump, it's more likely to break something than the small S bump. Either that or they accept that even 5 games are just broken and require patching, either having a compatability mode in the console making things more complex for users, or once identified, make the console itself recognize this is on a blacklist of games that need the console to clock down for those games.
 
ZehDon

ZehDon

Member
PlayStation 4 Pro OT | Actually, THIS is for the players.

I just hope the boost to PSVR titles is primarily super sampling - cleaning up the image should be priority number one Imo.
 
S

spwolf

Member
Serious Sam said:
Source is common sense and first glimpse of that is the Xbox One S. Many games already run faster on it even thought only marginally. Xbox games are built with sociability in mind, especially now with Play Anywhere initiative and UWP platform. Anyway, here's your source:
Click to expand...

UWP games mostly run like shit and there are only few of them. The whole initiative has been a disaster. If "they" (unnamed sources from MS) are pointing out how UWP games will run automatically better, it means that others wont... so 10 games will be auto optimized and 800 wont.

You are always at mercy of developers, this is why you vote with your wallet and why they spend millions on making their games look better.

One S got marginal upgrade and is considerably less powerfull than PS4 OG, let alone Pro. I dont see why you are championing it in this thread as how should things be done. Microsoft "Please wait for..." (everything) PR is really fun.
 
K

kiguel182

Member
Serious Sam said:
I think the biggest problem of Pro so far is that it doesn't give automatic performance boost across all of its library and instead you are at the mercy of each game developers to release a patch.

We heard the excuses and reasoning that Sony didn't want to break compatibility with 700 of titles, but have they actually tested how many games get broken? I just can't fathom that a game locked at 30fps or 60fps could break if they allowed maybe 10% more CPU power and 30% more GPU power when played original PS4 titles. This would fix FPS drops in so many games.

At least they should add a toggle for enthusiasts burred somewhere in the settings that allows to play all games in Pro mode. They could add disclaimers that "it's not guaranteed to function properly blabla", but at least we would have options.

As it is now Pro is good for 30-40 games and that's it.

Xbox One S has a slightly better specs which allows for more FPS in big majority of games, even though gains are small, still better than nothing. And how many games were broken? Exactly 0.

In any case, Sony will really have to do something about is, because when Scorpion comes out it will give massive performance boost to already released games, MS won't split its library like Sony did with Pro vs OG.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Spending 400 bucks on something and then be at mercy of developers implementing a patch is a bummer.

Games that drop bellow 30fps could use the boost and be locked. I mean, they say they want to compete with the PC but when you upgrade your PC you see increased performance across all titles, not just ones with dev support.
 
A

AALLx

Member
Serious Sam said:
You missed my point. I wasn't saying Sony should remove or alter FPS limits in games, they probably can't even do that nor should they. I am saying, if you play a game that has let's say 60FPS cap, and it has FPS drops to 40s on OG PS4, when you play the same game on PS4 Pro it shouldn't have these same FPS drops.

This is what FPS limit is for in the first place. If we were allowed to play patchless games in Pro mode FPS limit is what would prevent games from breaking, in theory at least.
Click to expand...
Setting a hard limit by code isn't the only way to limit framerate. The beauty of fixed hardware for developers is that you can do hack-ish stuff that will only work for that specific hardware, and you can 100% guarantee that it'll work for that hardware. Based on your other responses, I do feel that you are not technically equipped enough to grasp the implications of these, so I will leave it at that.

To join in on the OT naming, here's mine:
PS4 Pro |OT| PS5 Prototype
 
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