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Torment: Tides of Numenera stretch goals being cut/reduced due to dev issues

Durante

Member
Is it so incredibly hard to access a situation and accept that nobody is perfect? I guess people prefer a black and white outlook to the terribly grey reality around them, but still.

inXile has never seemed to me like a terribly professional setup. How else would they have created something so beautiful, but chaotic (in every respect, really) as Wasteland 2? Even compared with other crowdfunded devs of similar size they seem less organized. Adds to their charm, but also shows how they (mis)handle certain aspect of their games. I can like them for what they can do, without having to glorify them.
Well, if I could get one wish from them, then it would be to fire their entire UI department.
Nor do I have to lash out so hard against a site with questionable culture and atmosphere, when the core of what their pointing out is true, if overblown.
Fantastic post, I agree with everything you said.

Fear, probably.
If that's the case it's stupid, and like most companies they should take Gabe Newell's advice about lying (even by omission) to your fanbase (and the internet at large) to heart. In this day and age, clumsy attempts to "control the message" often blow up.

Which stretch goal was this? Did a quick search but wasn't sure, was it henchmen becoming companions?
No it was day/night cycles.
 

dude

dude
I'm actually more worried about the actual game. The beta is very rough. The writing seems to be more concerned with volume than quality, the UI is a mess (to put it lightly), the combat is slow and kind of boring. Nothing about it hooked me.
Still hopeful, though.
 
I generally agree about trying to be respectful even of huge assholes but guys, RPG Codex is a super fucking vile place. This is a place where...

1) The community 1-star review bombed a game for having the audacity of having a trans person as an incidental NPC.
2) They had a thread devoted to expressing outrage that Tyranny had one more female companion than male companion and featured a matriarchal society.
3) When some concept art for PoE2 came out showing a variety of portraits with black facial features, at least one poster started referring to the game as "niggerland".

And so on. So when I see people defending the Codex because sometimes, amidst all the bigotry and misogyny and petty fighting and vicarious status-seeking, they actually discuss RPGs... well, I lose a little respect for them. The attitudes and worldviews that thrive there are incredibly unhealthy and they give rise to shit like gamergate. RPG Codex is not an okay place.

So yeah, I don't think it's in great taste to call them a bunch of social cripples. But I think it's worse to normalize the behavior that goes on there.

/soapbox



Oh yeah. The forums are a cesspool of the worst of humanity but gosh their interviews are amazing.

RPG Codex is basically a den of alt-righters that don't even deserve the time of day.

inXile probably should have been more transparent on some of this stuff earlier on, but things change in development. The details shared don't seem particularly massive to me if they were the best decisions for a better game (which I think is what most backers would want).

It will not shock you to learn that a bunch of prominent forum members there have pro trump icons on their profiles including at least one senior staff member.

Y'all actually want me to post the "niggers should be hanged" stuff from the Codex or are you willing to die on this hill?
Oh man, wow didn't know this about RPGCodex. Guess I shouldn't be surprised that conservative gamers more focused on older things and nostalgia turn out to be socially conservative bigots.
 

hodgy100

Member
Maybe the investors should be kept up to date with changes in content/scope, then.
Yeah people should be kept up to date but realistically what can they do with the information. Withhold their next milestone paymamet, no they already have the money? People know what they are getting into when they find a kickstarter project.
 

Durante

Member
Yeah people should be kept up to date but realistically what can they do with the information. Withhold their next milestone paymamet, no they already have the money? People know what they are getting into when they find a kickstarter project.
As someone who absolutely loves the crowdfunding approach, and has participated in 50 or so at this point, I think I do know what I am getting into. I consider it as a mutual relationship of trust with the developers, which replaces the inefficient, crusty and often misguided traditional publishing model.

I don't see, however, why that should mean that I need to be hoodwinked by used-car-salesmen tactics. And in fact, many other developers have demonstrated that it doesn't mean that, and that even cutting out features can be proactively communicated without ill effect.
 

HK-47

Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
Yeah people should be kept up to date but realistically what can they do with the information. Withhold their next milestone paymamet, no they already have the money? People know what they are getting into when they find a kickstarter project.

They might keep from turning people off to future projects they might try and fund.
 

Famassu

Member
Nor do I have to lash out so hard against a site with questionable culture and atmosphere, when the core of what their pointing out is true, if overblown.
I'm sorry, but yes, we do need to push back on the overblown, hyperbolic shit that is infesting our society, especially when they push a false narrative even when they start from a factual premise.
 

Ogimachi

Member
As the user who made the initial findings looking into the game's files, thought I'd clarify some things.

First of all, even among Codex users, the decisions were not the main concern, it was the way they handled it. InXile could've told backers about these decisions well in advance and explain the situation like Larian did, but instead they were happy to keep quiet about it until release. They only responded after Codex users posted the findings in the InXile forums and backers started to ask for answers, and it still wasn't shared with all backers. Whatever one may think of the Codex and its users, the whole point was to let more people know about this, and there's no harm in that at all. Yes, development is challenging and we all know these things happen, but a lot of people paid good money for these, and there's no reason why they couldn't let backers know in advance, specially the italian localization thing, which still hasn't been mentioned in a Kickstarter update or press release.

As for the RPG Codex itself, I'm not surprised by the cheap shots and all that, but it doesn't hurt to explain:
The Codex forum is largely unmoderated. The rules only prohibit NSFW stuff without tags, illegal stuff, spam and harassment, basically. That's why, as some people pointed out, interviews, reviews and other posts look completely different to forum posts by some users. That's not for everyone, of course, but it doesn't mean the staff or the majority of users endorse any specific view or behaviour.

Also, to say cancelled stretch goals are irrelevant and shouldn't be expected is unfair to developers who go out of their way to make them happen. Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity, which was a similar KS project, had 100% of stretch goal content at launch. Sawyer even acknowledged that the game may have suffered for it, but that fulfilling their promises was too important.
 
I'm sorry, but yes, we do need to push back on the overblown, hyperbolic shit that is infesting our society, especially when they push a false narrative even when they start from a factual premise.

Push a false narrative? You don't think inXile could have handled the situation better by, you know, communicating with their backers about stretch goals being excluded? People are raising questions and rightly so in my opinion.

edit: basically what Fairfax is saying
 

The Wart

Member
specially the italian localization thing, which still hasn't been mentioned in a Kickstarter update or press release.

Woah really? So Italian backers not following the forums might have no idea they won't be able to play the game in their native language? That's fucked up. The content stuff ultimately doesn't matter that much if the game is good, but a language is something they really should offer refunds for.
 

U-R

Member
While i think those changes are perfectly okay in a normal development cycle, this thread motivated me enough to write on KS asking for a refund for The Bard Tale IV.

Now that'a a project I feel didn't progress at all past concept sketches and a few test renders.
 

Fantastapotamus

Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
This entire thing could have been a resolved if inXile would have just informed the backers itself. Just incredibly stupid mishandling of the whole situation.
 

hidys

Member
This entire thing could have been a resolved if inXile would have just informed the backers itself. Just incredibly stupid mishandling of the whole situation.

Pretty much this. I'm not someone who thinks stretch goals are an ironclad promise and if the developers feel they have better ways of utilizing their development time then I'm all for it. But the developers should come clean about those decisions earlier rather than wait until someone picks through the game files and come clean only when they're forced to.

A whole lot of mess could have been solved earlier and right now it's hard not to blame people for being a little paranoid as to what is actually in the game.
 

Violet_0

Banned
The combat is ass though. The approach 'No Truce With the Furies' is taking would have been much, much better.

so this is a real Torment game after all

I don't know why people were so insitent on turn-based combat, which the original didn't have anyway, when a) the first one was never about combat, it was just something that was regretably part of the game, and b) Wasteland 2 didn't exactly shine in that regard either, or in any other for that matter
 
As a backer, I'd have preferred more straightforward communication I guess, but I can't say I really mind the changes (I'm a hands off backer most of the time). This seems incredibly overblown.

Also LOL RPG Codex. Fuck that cesspool.
 

Purkake4

Banned
The combat is ass though. The approach 'No Truce With the Furies' is taking would have been much, much better.
I very much agree, Wasteland 2's combat system was very rigid leading to cookie cutter builds and few options when building your characters.

Integrating combat with the rest of the game seems like the holy grail of this branch of cRPGs. (Divinity-style tactical combat being the other branch in this dicotomy).
 

Sasie

Member
As a backer, I'd have preferred more straightforward communication I guess, but I can't say I really mind the changes (I'm a hands off backer most of the time). This seems incredibly overblown.

Also LOL RPG Codex. Fuck that cesspool.

I don't deny the toxic nature of the Codex but it's still the best gathering point for CRPG news/events out there. They are also the most consistent backers when it comes to crowdfunding those games.

They wouldn't be mentioned in games like Shadowrun Hong Kong, Divinity Original Sin, DeadState or be visited by developers if they were not useful/helpful when it comes to spreading awareness of indie RPG titles.

I remember Swen from Larian Studios have said they couldn't have reached the success they did without sites like the RPGWatch/RPGCodex and he also very often take about diversity and his desire to attract new people to their games.

So really dismissing the Codex as just a horrible cesspool is a bit much. Some of them are but there is much more to it then that. Personally I just filter out the horrible parts and don't actively take part in the discussions. I still read it just as frequently as NEOGAF though.

Also on Wasteland 2. Personally my problem with it was that I wanted a spiritual successor to Fallout the way Fallout had originally been a spiritual successor to Wasteland. Instead they made a true Wasteland 2 sequel, what honestly makes sense in retrospect. Just not entirely what I personally wanted from them.
 

water_wendi

Water is not wet!
The Codex is like animal porn.. its not for everyone. i dont blame people for being turned off from them because there are a lot of motherfuckers there. They do know their rpgs though.

As a backer i dont really care about the alterations made. The title made my heart skip a beat though.
 

Agremont

Member
As a backer I can't say I'm too bothered with this. Doesn't look like there was that much changed. I have sympathy for people who are dissappointed about it though.

There are always risks involved in crowdfunding.
 

Machina

Banned
Protip: Kickstarter is not a contract. It's practically a very early preorder. Unless it's something egregiously bad like MN9, consumers need not get upset when circumstances change and developers change their vision to make their game better.

As much as I'm looking forward to it, I am very concerned about the expectations people are taking into Shenmue 3 as well. This game is not going to be the sweeping masterpiece that everyone thinks it'll be. It will be much less ambitious than 2, yet people will paint that as a failed kickstarter that "didn't deliver on its promises".
 

Lister

Banned
Oh man, wow didn't know this about RPGCodex. Guess I shouldn't be surprised that conservative gamers more focused on older things and nostalgia turn out to be socially conservative bigots.

So my curiosity was peaked (just like after I heard about PCMR reddit) and again I wasn't seeing where the vitriol is coming from.

Read through their thread on Pillars, thread son other RPG's, etc.

Didnt' see anythign about niggers being hanged or anything gross like that. The discussions could have been lifted staight from NeoGaff or any other number of gaming forums.

This is what I don't like about painting entire communities with the same brush. Unless I just got lucky and only entered the handful of non racist threads, I'm going to call bullshit on this. Same deal with PCMR reddit. Went in expectin gradeschool level threads from butthurt Pc gamers wining about consoles... 99.9% of the threads were people showing off their PC setups. .01 percent were screenshots of stupid youtube comments from clueless console gamers.


Hell it was the SAME THING when I learned about NeoGaf. I was on another forum board where people were saying how gross NeoGaf was. That the entire community here were a bunch of elitists and snobs and even mentions of sexist attitudes.

Guess what I came, I joined, and I don't see much (or any really) of that at all. And yet some idiot son another forum where claiming all sort of shit about ALL of the NeoGaf community. Usually based on some off-topic thread they once visited.
 

Halabane

Member
While i think those changes are perfectly okay in a normal development cycle, this thread motivated me enough to write on KS asking for a refund for The Bard Tale IV.

Now that'a a project I feel didn't progress at all past concept sketches and a few test renders.

"Can Kickstarter refund the money if a project is unable to fulfill?

No, Kickstarter doesn't issue refunds. Transactions are between backers and creators directly. Creators receive all funds (less fees) soon after their campaign ends."

So you're going to ask inexile for a refund? Interesting to see how that goes.

Not sure some people here completely understand how kickstarter works. You're not buying a product. You are giving funds for someone to try and build a product. May not work out. You take a risk because you really want it and there is no other way to get it. It's a risk and you are part of it because you wanted someone to try and create it. We all hope for the happy path but in this case it's not happening. It's a concern and will jeopardize them coming back for more funding in the future; unless they make figure out how to explain or make things as right as possible. I wish they would communicate more frequently and with details like Obsidian. Hopefully that is a lesson they will learn going forward. To be honest I had almost forgotten about this game its been so long.
 

Zakalwe

Banned
<Developer> We had originally aimed for 8 companions, but during development we decided to make fewer companions, but give each of them more to do

<Developer> We originally intended to have the Oasis be the second hub city and the Bloom a small area. During development, we decided to make the Bloom the second hub city and keep Oasis as a small area.

<Developer> We were originally going to put the lore encyclopedia in game but we figured that it'd work better as a website

<Fans> THIS IS AN OUTRAGE

<Developer> We made a design decision

<Website Full Of Actual Social Cripples> DEVELOPER OUT OF CONTROL, SELLING LIES TO THE PUBLIC, NO MORE WE WILL NOT STAND FOR THIS!!!!

Some of the language might be a bit strong, but you're on point in response to many of he reactions here.

Plus people more interested in a checklist being completed than getting a better overall product is shortsighted and petty.

However, if what I'm reading is true and the devs were sneaky about it and only confessed because they got caught, I get /that/ upset, but that's something else entirely.
 

Violet_0

Banned
Unless I just got lucky and only entered the handful of non racist threads, I'm going to call bullshit on this.

no, the Codex's community reputation is rather well-earned. It's not like all of them are alt-right GamerGaters or anything, but the mods there are less strict and a lot of shit that wouldn't fly here goes unquestioned over there. They like to appear edgy and talk no-nonsense, which occasionally leads to some rather, eh, not-very-pc discussions. And everything is always drenched in layers of cynicism so it's never really clear if they actually mean what they say
 

Roarer

Member
I'm glad they decided to cut or change things that didn't work out. I trust in the developers knowing what is best for the end product.

I usually don't engage much with the projects that I've backed (can't really muster up that much energy and hype around intangibles) but I can understand if people are disappointed by the lack of communication in this case.

However, people should seriously stop treating kickstarters and stretch goals as some kind of pre-order. You are backing an idea and a hope.
 
Protip: Kickstarter is not a contract. It's practically a very early preorder. Unless it's something egregiously bad like MN9, consumers need not get upset when circumstances change and developers change their vision to make their game better.

As much as I'm looking forward to it, I am very concerned about the expectations people are taking into Shenmue 3 as well. This game is not going to be the sweeping masterpiece that everyone thinks it'll be. It will be much less ambitious than 2, yet people will paint that as a failed kickstarter that "didn't deliver on its promises".

Such a great repository of legal knowledge here. I don't think Machina Law Dictionary is a thing, and if someone wanted to go to bat on a kickstarter like this it could spell some pretty serious legal problems for someone who breaches the promises created by kickstarter.
 

Vlodril

Member
opponents to crowdfunding baffle me. not only its other people's money helping make a game you can play (if you dont wish to back it yourself) but some of the best computer games in the last few years have come from crowdfunded projects (this is personal opinion obviously but last two goty lists i made half the games were crowdfunded).

As far as torment goes i really really liked what i saw in the alpha/beta. I am ok with swapping hub areas or making fewer but more signifacant companions. Designing a game with a goal to be a good game and its pacing and flow is better than trying to hit specific milestones like x companiosn or that area must be a hub etc.

The game is out soon now so i guess we ll see how it goes.
 
I only just heard about this from this thread itself, and I'm not a backer, but I find the direction of this thread pretty annoying.

Crowdfunding campaigns ask people to take on a significant risk, effectively putting down a high-risk preorder years in advance so the developers get to work on the game they want to work on. Stretch goals are specifically designed to work as incentives for fans to put down as much money as possible. In light of those facts, it hardly seems ridiculous for a backer to be a little miffed when significant content that they paid for, that was part of the promised product when they put down their consideration, is cut.

Companions are a big deal in a game like this. A really big deal. They're central to the experience. And it sounds like they've cut 25% of them with a completely unaccountable, unverifiable excuse, the old "sure we cut that content, but we, uh, made everything else better!" They say they couldn't deliver 8 companions that felt complex and satisfying enough. But people paid for 8 companions that were complex and satisfying. InXile were perfectly happy to take people's money for 8 companions that were complex and satisfying. They were perfectly happy to cajole people into pledging more money so they would get 8 companions who were complex and satisfying.

Say I placed an order with a carpenter for a table set with 8 chairs. They charge my credit card and everything. But when they deliver months later, they only deliver a table and six chairs. I call them up and ask what happened. "Oh, we had to cut two of the chairs, because we couldn't make 8 chairs that were up to standard. But don't worry, we made the other 6 chairs even better. Don't you want chairs that are beautiful and made to a high standard of quality? Why do you want us to rush and turn out 8 sub-par chairs instead of 6 well-made chairs? Can't you understand that we did what was best for your dining set?" Well, no. I seriously doubt any of you would accept that. You paid for a table and 8 good chairs. This false dichotomy of "6 good chairs or 8 questionable chairs" didn't come up until long after the carpenter already happily took your money.

People are gonna say this analogy is ridiculous, but it isn't. I refuse to have less self-respect for myself as a consumer of video games than I have for myself as a consumer of physical products. Video game publishers do not deserve to be let off the hook of actually delivering what they promised in exchange for your cash just because video game development is complex, or because they're indie, or because they're your pet devs and you reeeeeeally like them and don't want people to be mean to them. Consumer rights don't suddenly disappear because it's kickstarter. They don't get off the hook just because they say "Well, we can either deliver a great game, or we can deliver all the content we promised." I refuse to accept that dichotomy. They promised to deliver both.

And that's not even getting into the issue of tarring anyone who disagrees with you with the labels "social cripple" or "mentally ill", something that we apparently do now on NeoGAF, despite its being a small half-step at best from calling other people "retarded" as a general insult. But hey, if it's a mod's favorite kickstarter project, I guess it's okay now.

Look: I get that it isn't the biggest deal in the world. And it may not be a material enough change to legally force a refund (who the heck knows, kickstarter legal issues are murky as hell). But slamming anyone who is even a little upset about this change as a socially backwards crybaby is ridiculous, and more than a little anti-consumer.
 

Durante

Member
Protip: Kickstarter is not a contract. It's practically a very early preorder. Unless it's something egregiously bad like MN9, consumers need not get upset when circumstances change and developers change their vision to make their game better.
As an avid proponent of the crowdfunding model, I don't see myself as a "consumer", I'm a backer, and unlike a consumer, I don't expect certainty when I back something.

However, in return, I also expect to be treated like a backer of a developer rather than a consumer of a publisher. This means that I don't want any "expectation management", "marketing messaging", or plain omissions. I want to simply be informed of changes that directly impact features previously detailed in a straightforward manner.
 
That's horrible, instead of the delaying the game to make sure they incorporate all they promised (and what people paid for), they decide to cut out on the content without informing the backers and choose to release asap.

I'm sure they will add more content in a future ultimate edition patch or whatever, but that means I'm not buying it on day 1 anymore.
Their problem is that they're running out of money. Your response is pretty much "work for for free". Would you work for free if your managers overpromised on a project or mismanaged its development? I sure as hell wouldn't. My family has to eat.
 

JP

Member
I didn't back the game, simply because I tend to only back games where I can claim a copy on the platform that I use to play games on. for my reward. I have been following this game though and I did pre-order the PS4 version as soon as it went live on the PlayStation Store.

I do think that it's a shame that things have had to change but I do always understand that due to the nature of game development that it may happen to anything that's announced in games a long way from launch. That is what it is so although I'm disappointed, I'm not entirely surprised that some things have changed in this way.

I'm not quite so comfortable with the fact that this wasn't mentioned a possibility until a month before launch and that it's only come out through replies to forum posts rather than an announcement which means that people may not have found out until launch if those questions hadn't been raised.

Having pre-ordered the game, I have paid for it in advance and it wouldn't have stopped me doing that if they'd been more open about these changes I do feel that they've not handled it as well as they could have. I'm not angry in any way, just a little disappointed.

I think I'm probably more disappointed with the Voluminous Codex not appearing in the game than anything else. For me at least, it seemed a fantastic thing to have in the game, sort of Encyclopedia Galactica that would build up as you played the game. I appreciate that it'll still be available in some form outside of the game but it doesn't sound as interesting as a proper in game catalogue.

Of course, it's difficult to know exactly how the alterations will effect the overall shape of this game and I suppose these things may return in some sort of Torment: Tides of Numenera Director's Cut Apology Edition type thing down the line even though inXile do seem to have more on the go than they used to.
 

Steez

Member
Man, InExile is really bumming me out. I'm so glad I didn't back any of their games.

more like project mismanagement from inXile and Techland

I'm highly anticipating the game's release but I will still wait for reviews and especially impressions from the Codex before I dive in.

Wait for what? Codex is going to hate it, like every other game. Love you, Codex.
codex_heart.png
 

The Dude

Member
Terribly mismanaged, but things happen. I just hope the game has no other set backs as I feel it'll still be an incredible game
 

loganclaws

Plane Escape Torment
Their problem is that they're running out of money. Your response is pretty much "work for for free". Would you work for free if your managers overpromised on a project or mismanaged its development? I sure as hell wouldn't. My family has to eat.

Yes I will to get the job done.Ever heard of reputation? In the real world it's what makes or breaks businesses.
 
<Developer> We made a design decision

<Website Full Of Actual Social Cripples> DEVELOPER OUT OF CONTROL, SELLING LIES TO THE PUBLIC, NO MORE WE WILL NOT STAND FOR THIS!!!!

It's apparent you don't like/agree with rpgcodex. Calling anyone an "actual social cripple" though is well out of bounds don't you think?

Even if you don't think so, it sends the wrong message to other users of this forum. Is it ok for me or any other normal user to use this term here when referring to something we don't like/agree with? I'd hope not.
 

Budi

Member
Glad to hear this isn't a big issue for the game, but yeah with Kickstarter communication to backers is crucial.
 

Taruranto

Member
Sometimes I do wonder if stretch-goals aren't harmful to the overall development of a game.

Like, devs feel they NEED to insert stuff even though they don't have the resources for them anymore. (PoE's stronghold and second megatown also come to find)


The codex definitely got worse in recent years, a lot of /pol/tier posts even in the gaming related sections (Just check Tyranny female companions discussion). This said, it does have people who know their stuff about cRPG and it's not like the whole userbase is like that, but there is a significantly amount of... hostile stuff you'll have to bear if you browse it. Mods allow any kind of opinion, for better or worse.
 
This is akin to getting an outline for a TV show and then having to change subplots and such so the plot can work. Like how Breaking Bad's Jesse was supposed to die at the end of season 1, but plans changed

You're basically asking one to predict the finished work while they're still on the draft of the first chapter
 

Durante

Member
This is akin to getting an outline for a TV show and then having to change subplots and such so the plot can work. Like how Breaking Bad's Jesse was supposed to die at the end of season 1, but plans changed

You're basically asking one to predict the finished work while they're still on the draft of the first chapter
No, we're asking the developers to tell their backers about significant changes to things which were concretely advertised at specific levels of capital during the campaign.
 
No, we're asking the developers to tell their backers about significant changes to things which were concretely advertised at specific levels of capital during the campaign.
I wouldn't consider them significant changes though. Aside from the Bloom, it's not a change. It's a reduction in scope. No different from scenes in a trailer not making it into the film, except even less binding here because these were merely hopeful ideas and concepts

Sometimes I do wonder if stretch-goals aren't harmful to the overall development of a game.

Like, devs feel they NEED to insert stuff even though they don't have the resources for them anymore. (PoE's stronghold and second megatown also come to find)
They are, IMO. They can be cool, but they also can expand the scope of the game just to add stuff to draw in more funds during a campaign. Game dev is a fluid thing; promising specific aspects before the game is fully designed, before the scope is completely defined, and the story and tone is set in stone, places the devs between a rock and hard place. What comes first: the game as a whole, or these elements that might not fit well with the game as it is now
 
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