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Torment: Tides of Numenera stretch goals being cut/reduced due to dev issues
- Thread starter Krakn3Dfx
- Start date
StereoVsn
Member
I think the majority of folks here want the same thing. Hopefully we are not all wrong. Wasteland 2 soured me enough that I didn't even think about backing Wasteland 3.
Aw man I was totally looking forward to getting into my first internet fight.
I don't think BG2 was that great at that stuff either but it's hard to tell because it's so busy blasting your face off. That game is the Spinal Tap of cRPGs.
I mean, shit happens. And as far as not meeting expectations go, this is actually fairly manageable.
The only concern I have is that this should really have been disseminated much earlier. The game releases next month. This is not a recent realization.
I realize that they feared the irrational reactions of fans, but this approach is not a good look.
The only concern I have is that this should really have been disseminated much earlier. The game releases next month. This is not a recent realization.
I realize that they feared the irrational reactions of fans, but this approach is not a good look.
Ivory Samoan
Gold Member
It's in the OP, it's some of the companions and some area content: but they're working on it as free DLC for backers anyway...I don't see a problem with this in the slightest personally.
It seems like a legit professional way to deal with a complicated issue, with Obsidian's branching dialogue making it harder to just shoehorn in characters no doubt (which I for one, love them for).
I think that's one of the issues with this particular kickstarter - not that they aren't transparent (they have been from what I've seen) but there are still areas that raise questions that they then haven't gone into. I suppose the other thing is that this is one of the few kickstarters that has added things afterwards that hasn't sat well with certain groups of the original backers, eg console ports (some say they didn't pay for it and it wasn't part of the pitch ergo it shouldn't happen), the deal with techland for collectors editions that are apparently "better" than what those guys got and they feel left out of the loop, cut content not being talked about enough or clearly etc etc.
I guess this is more of a thing where the bits that most concern those people, are the least transparent areas and the ones inxile haven't mentioned much about in what is considered enough time
We all do.
Still tho we can't close our eyes just cause we want the project to meet expectations or we trust/like the devs.
Game can be amazing, and I really hope it ll be, but this would not make things less wrong.
The writing and design from the Beta were both fairly solid. Reactivity seemed more limited than expected, but I only played through once.
The combat is ass though. The approach 'No Truce With the Furies' is taking would have been much, much better.
Yeah, Stump should never have called them 'fans'
I generally agree about trying to be respectful even of huge assholes but guys, RPG Codex is a super fucking vile place. This is a place where...
1) The community 1-star review bombed a game for having the audacity of having a trans person as an incidental NPC.
2) They had a thread devoted to expressing outrage that Tyranny had one more female companion than male companion and featured a matriarchal society.
3) When some concept art for PoE2 came out showing a variety of portraits with black facial features, at least one poster started referring to the game as "niggerland".
And so on. So when I see people defending the Codex because sometimes, amidst all the bigotry and misogyny and petty fighting and vicarious status-seeking, they actually discuss RPGs... well, I lose a little respect for them. The attitudes and worldviews that thrive there are incredibly unhealthy and they give rise to shit like gamergate. RPG Codex is not an okay place.
So yeah, I don't think it's in great taste to call them a bunch of social cripples. But I think it's worse to normalize the behavior that goes on there.
/soapbox
Oh yeah. The forums are a cesspool of the worst of humanity but gosh their interviews are amazing.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
RPG Codex is basically a den of alt-righters that don't even deserve the time of day.
inXile probably should have been more transparent on some of this stuff earlier on, but things change in development. The details shared don't seem particularly massive to me if they were the best decisions for a better game (which I think is what most backers would want).
inXile probably should have been more transparent on some of this stuff earlier on, but things change in development. The details shared don't seem particularly massive to me if they were the best decisions for a better game (which I think is what most backers would want).
It would certainly be unfair to those with real mental illness.
Its an apt description if you have read RPGCodex's forums. If you are just looking at their interviews and reviews it might paint a different picture.
freenudemacusers
Member
Social cripples is the deplorables of 2017
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
It will not shock you to learn that a bunch of prominent forum members there have pro trump icons on their profiles including at least one senior staff member.
freenudemacusers
Member
What about anime avatars
In a recent nier threads people with anime avas were called out as: "anime boys"
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
EDIT: Missed free DLC on the content stuff. Nvm.
Coriolanus
Banned
yarp. in exactly the same boat.
Just praying real god damn hard that it be, at worst, as janky as WL2
C. Alas, inxile.they do some surprisingly in depth reviews erry once in a while.
NMA, tho...
I backed this game ages ago and I'd far rather have this game come out well even if parts had to be trimmed to fit in. Sure I can see people disappointed that certain promised features don't make it in, but that's much better in my eyes than having a game that has to be compromised in other way because of feature creep.
While I understand and am fine with development changes, they are just a victim of their own stupid stretch goals as they just chased after more money in any vague way they could come up with. Obviously it's not surprising that four years later something they came up with overnight during the campaign as an add on didn't work out.
The only company that ever did stretch goals right was the Skullgirls campaign that laid out specific costs and time frames for each addition. Of course those guys are also the only ones to do any true transparency when it comes to development costs, but instead during their Indivisible campaign people actually suggested that they should have lied about what costs they need, set an overly low initial goal, and then done stretch goals for what they really needed. That's the environment that has been created around game crowdfunding in the last five years.
The only company that ever did stretch goals right was the Skullgirls campaign that laid out specific costs and time frames for each addition. Of course those guys are also the only ones to do any true transparency when it comes to development costs, but instead during their Indivisible campaign people actually suggested that they should have lied about what costs they need, set an overly low initial goal, and then done stretch goals for what they really needed. That's the environment that has been created around game crowdfunding in the last five years.
There also the one's that put the most money up for these type of projects, more than Neogaf ever has, forgot where I saw the info where it had info from websites that funded KS projects for CRPG's, Codex was on top followed by rpgwatch website. So it's understandable why they would be the most upset with these changes/cuts.
That's pretty much what I'm saying. There's a big difference between colloquial terms like "crazy" and actual mental illness, and making sure the language stays firmly in its appropriate context is one of the ways to help prevent real mental illness from being stigmatized.
NoPiece
Member
I agree with you that the way Skullgirls did stretch goals was really good, but they got a ton of crap for it:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=516730
inXile will probably get less grief for not being transparent than Lab Zero from people who don't understand how much things cost.
They have some pretty good RPG articles.
I just don't visit the forums or read the comments.
Tinfoilhatsron
Banned
I'd give up. We aren't going to change anyone on this forum from saying stuff like this and 'retard' or whatever. (Hell, just to say I'm not free from guilt either) Just how it goes, even on 'progressive' websites. Maybe in a few generations it will be more offensive but I dunno.
Vincent Grayson
Member
Maybe I'm just tired of outrage, but I just can't get upset about this. Fewer, more detailed companions is a good decision.
Changes in game design leading to changes in which areas are hubs is not something anyone should be fretting over.
If anything, I think the problem is in the marketing. Don't market a game as having X companions or Y cities or Z different enemies. That shit doesn't matter anyway, it's just a dumb bullet point for people to get hung up on.
Make it good, and release it when it's done. *That* is what backers are owed, and I hope like hell that's the case here.
Changes in game design leading to changes in which areas are hubs is not something anyone should be fretting over.
If anything, I think the problem is in the marketing. Don't market a game as having X companions or Y cities or Z different enemies. That shit doesn't matter anyway, it's just a dumb bullet point for people to get hung up on.
Make it good, and release it when it's done. *That* is what backers are owed, and I hope like hell that's the case here.
Tinfoilhatsron
Banned
Honestly I don't have any problems with this because I feel like the devs had to compromise with what they had. Willing to let them go on this one.
This. I'm sure they are making the most reasonable choice they can given their circumstances. Most people arent evil or lazy. Making games is really really hard. Cuts like this happen in with publisher backed games routinely, we just never hear about it. Does it suck? Obviously. And I know they have an obligation to deliver on things they've promised. But if they deliver a great game that feels complete that happens to be missing a couple features, that's honestly still an achievement. I just can't stress how hard game development is and how inevitably circumstances change.
ZombieSupaStar
Member
Eh it was OK. I did like setting up ambushes, and basically firing squading the first guy. I had played Divinity OS at the same time as Wasteland 2, and that made Wasteland 2s combat just stick out more to me at the time. To be fair Divinity OS combat was just so fun and sandboxish, I can't think of many games that did it better, although xcom 2, once you starting unlocking abilities, gets awesome too.
yeah I cant think of a better site for CRPG advice, somethingawful is (was?) a good one too.
Xaero Gravity
NEXT LEVEL lame™
Have you seen Old Yeller?
As game development goes, some things get changed or have to be reduced as things may not work out. Pretty sure the final stretch goal for Divinity: OS had to be cut as well. That said, stretch goals are essentially used as marketing during kickstarter, so it's generally a good idea to do what can be done to make them. If you can't, well.....as I mentioned, they're used as marketing to try to get more money during a campaign, so just deal with the consequences of not including it whatever they may be (which may not be much of anything).
Basically, aside from death threats and the like, I don't really feel sorry for the devs about this outrage since stretch goals are used to get people or more people to spend money on a project.
Basically, aside from death threats and the like, I don't really feel sorry for the devs about this outrage since stretch goals are used to get people or more people to spend money on a project.
This is a good lesson though.
JustSomeone
Member
It isn't nice to talk like that about the people in a webside you mod
They have the best RPG reviews, and the community has the best taste in RPGs among online gaming communities. All their lists are spot on.
Unknown Soldier
Member
I backed Wasteland 2, I backed Torment 2, and I'll back whatever it is they come up with after Torment 2.
This is a tempest in a teapot. Games get cuts to content all the time, it's just that most of the time you don't even know about it because the development isn't completely open and constantly updated like these KS games are.
This is a tempest in a teapot. Games get cuts to content all the time, it's just that most of the time you don't even know about it because the development isn't completely open and constantly updated like these KS games are.
Social cripples?
Being able to mod lets you say those things huh i guess?
What a shit comment
ShadowSwordmaster
Banned
I almost forgot that Codex was still a thing.
Pinko Marx
Banned
I wonder how much stuff was most likely cut from CRPG faves like Arcanum or the original Torment.
I'd love to see this. I knew RPGCodex was a bit up their own ass, but I didn't know how deep the rabbit hole went.
I'd love to see this. I knew RPGCodex was a bit up their own ass, but I didn't know how deep the rabbit hole went.
Then attack them on those terms. No one has mentioned any racial fuckery so far, just general callousness to those with mental illness that I thought we had moved passed in this community.
I'll leave it alone. I looked back over my comment and I'm kinda derailing here, not the time or place.
Wasteland 2 wasn't as bad as ya'll are making it out to be. I mean, it wasn't fantastic, but it was a perfectly serviceable Fallout Tactics level game.
I believe Torment: ToN will be good. I don't think anything will beat the first, but we've got a lot of good developers on it developing content. Hopefully that's enough.
As a backer, I can't say that I care too much about what made it in and what didn't. I agree with earlier posters who mention that sometimes KS goals seem like a bit too much. Like, PoE would have been better without your stronhgold, because basically that ended up being a menu based borefest.
As an aside I'm actually just about done with strongholds in my CRPG's period, actually. Didn't add anything to Tyranny either, just more menu based stuff that I don't want. The more I think about it the more I actually think that strongholds haven't really added much to CRPG's since, pretty much forever. I guess the one in ToB was good, and I suppose you could argue that the one in Storm of Zehir was good. Otherwise, I could live without them.
I believe Torment: ToN will be good. I don't think anything will beat the first, but we've got a lot of good developers on it developing content. Hopefully that's enough.
As a backer, I can't say that I care too much about what made it in and what didn't. I agree with earlier posters who mention that sometimes KS goals seem like a bit too much. Like, PoE would have been better without your stronhgold, because basically that ended up being a menu based borefest.
As an aside I'm actually just about done with strongholds in my CRPG's period, actually. Didn't add anything to Tyranny either, just more menu based stuff that I don't want. The more I think about it the more I actually think that strongholds haven't really added much to CRPG's since, pretty much forever. I guess the one in ToB was good, and I suppose you could argue that the one in Storm of Zehir was good. Otherwise, I could live without them.
Pinko Marx
Banned
Maybe Obsidian just doesn't know how to do a Stronghold.
Fair point, considering the ones I listed were all Obsidian games. I can't really think of an example of a good stronghold though. Skyrim? I guess those were pretty good. Shadowrun? Don't really know if those were really strongholds since you don't upgrade them at all.
I guess the more general point is that sometimes you start putting stuff in the stretch goals and they end up not working out as you'd like. In that case it might be better to scrap them and eat the L rather than struggling to put it in instead. Strongholds are an example of this, but an extra companion and a planned hub are also examples. I guess, to use a Planescape reference, I'd rather have 50 more lines of Morte dialogue than have an extra companion that says jack shit throughout the entire campaign. Unless that's their thing I guess, and it's pulled of well. But, you know what I mean.
Turin Turambar
Member
Game development is a bit 'dodgey'. This kind of changes and cuts (in comparison with the initial plans) happens to 90% of games.