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Should all games be fun ?

S

Salsa

Member
Allright, question speaks for itself, but lets talk a little..

Given that most of us recognize videogames as an art form, do you think that a fun experience is one of the things it should always transmit ?

With the whole comparing videogames to movies/books thing (wich i think it shouldnt be done, but whatever), dont you think that games can expand to give players a more profund experience than just having fun ? (and rely solely in this aspects, taking away the "fun" part)

Movies/books dont need to be entertaining. I mean i dont think people watched The green mile or read Pride and Prejudice thinking "hey this is so much fun! call the kids!".

Another thing: Fun=/=Engaging/Interesting. These are completely different concepts.

A good example for this is Flower, Sun, and Rain. I really liked the game, but i didnt have any fun with it. It was frustrating, gameplay was broken, but i actually think (and this is up for debate, as some people might think its stupid) this was done in purpose. I mean there's a whole section of the game where you just run from one character to another to say what the other character wanted to say, and viceversa. This is completely unnecesary, unless its part of the point, and part of the atmosphere the game wants you to experience. I didnt have fun with the game, but it sure was engaging. I really wanted to know what the fuck was going on in Suda's mind while making this, and it was a really good experiment on this matter.

What im basically saying is, the industry is big enough, shouldnt there be more room for experimentation ? there will always be fun games, of course, and everybody loves those (me included of course), but i think it wouldnt hurt to have more games like Flower Sun and Rain (just to name an example) to try and experiment with this.
 
P

Patryn

Member
No.

Of course, the problem is that if a game isn't fun, it's difficult to entice people to keep playing.
 
V

Vinterbird

Member
I've been saying it for some time, but fuck fun. Games should focus on doing interesting thing within the media, and not focus on having fun level design, fun encounters, fun mechanics or elements like highscores, bonus rounds and crap like that.

If games want to evolve beyond being entertainment for teenage, and something no one can take serious as something else but stupid entertainment, then the arcade roots and mentality needs to die.

Braid was a step in the right direction, and hopefully more stuff goes in that direction soon.
 
S

soco

Member
it depends upon how you define 'game'.

we do many things that aren't necessarily fun every day that could easily be defined as a game.

games obviously don't need to be fun, but you shouldn't expect them to sell insanely well.
 
C

CadetMahoney

Member
I don't play games for cinematics and cutscenes, not a big fan of story either. Multiplayer all the way tbh. Which is why i'm glad I didn't purchase Heavy Rain, got it as a gift instead.
 
D

Dascu

Member
SalsaShark said:
Allright, question speaks for itself, but lets talk a little..

Given that most of us recognize videogames as an art form, do you think that a fun experience is one of the things it should always transmit ?

With the whole comparing videogames to movies/books thing (wich i think it shouldnt be done, but whatever), dont you think that games can expand to give players a more profund experience than just having fun ? (and rely solely in this aspects, taking away the "fun" part)

Movies/books dont need to be entertaining. I mean i dont think people watched The green mile or read Pride and Prejudice thinking "hey this is so much fun! call the kids!".

Another thing: Fun=/=Engaging/Interesting. These are completely different concepts.

A good example for this is Flower, Sun, and Rain. I really liked the game, but i didnt have any fun with it. It was frustrating, gameplay was broken, but i actually think (and this is up for debate, as some people might think its stupid) this was done in purpose. I mean there's a whole section of the game where you just run from one character to another to say what the other character wanted to say, and viceversa. This is completely unnecesary, unless its part of the point, and part of the atmosphere the game wants you to experience. I didnt have fun with the game, but it sure was engaging. I really wanted to know what the fuck was going on in Suda's mind while making this, and it was a really good experiment on this matter.

What im basically saying is, the industry is big enough, shouldnt there be more room for experimentation ? there will always be fun games, of course, and everybody loves those (me included of course), but i think it wouldnt hurt to have more games like Flower Sun and Rain (just to name an example) to try and experiment with this.
Click to expand...
I very much disagree with this notion. Even moving on to your example, FSR, I definitely had fun with it. The game was enjoyable, partially because the story was interesting.
 
W

Why would you do that?

Member
Games as art that aren't fun aren't games to me. They're more like "guided experiences".

Games should be fun. Art doesn't have to be fun because the enjoyment comes through its artistic means.
 
S

Speevy

Banned
Everyone has a different definition of fun.

You could say that designing your own something or other and micro-managing a baseball team aren't your typical ideas of "fun".

But then, doing a long jump with Mario may amount to tedium for someone else, so who am I to judge?

For example, I find leveling up in Morrowind to be something other than "fun", but it's still addictive and stimulating.
 
D

DaBuddaDa

Member
Lostconfused said:
If its not fun or entertaining its a bad game. If its not supposed to be fun or entertaining then its not really a game anymore.
Click to expand...
Yes, this is pretty close. The interactive qualities inherent to videogames have to be fun or there's no reason for it to be interactive in the first place.
 
S

Salsa

Member
Dascu said:
I very much disagree with this notion. Even moving on to your example, FSR, I definitely had fun with it. The game was enjoyable, partially because the story was interesting.
Click to expand...

First you said fun, then you said enjoyable. I mean my point is that the game was really enjoyable, but not by fun level design, etc.

Maybe i wasnt clear enough, im talking about the most common description that people who play games give to the word FUN.

Like when someone says "story is good, but im not having any fun, so i quit" I mean you clearly were finding something enjoyable out of the experience, you were enjoying the story, but you stopped playing because you werent having fun, probably refering to the gameplay itself.
 
S

Salsa

Member
CadetMahoney said:
I don't play games for cinematics and cutscenes, not a big fan of story either. Multiplayer all the way tbh. Which is why i'm glad I didn't purchase Heavy Rain, got it as a gift instead.
Click to expand...

Im not talking about cinematics and cutscenes at all.
 
C

Confidence Man

Member
DaBuddaDa said:
Yes, this is pretty close. The interactive qualities inherent to videogames have to be fun or there's no reason for it to be interactive in the first place.
Click to expand...

Uh, no.

Games can be engaging in a number of ways. "Fun" is only one of them.
 
W

Why would you do that?

Member
Vinterbird said:
I've been saying it for some time, but fuck fun. Games should focus on doing interesting thing within the media, and not focus on having fun level design, fun encounters, fun mechanics or elements like highscores, bonus rounds and crap like that.

If games want to evolve beyond being entertainment for teenage, and something no one can take serious as something else but stupid entertainment, then the arcade roots and mentality needs to die.

Braid was a step in the right direction, and hopefully more stuff goes in that direction soon.
Click to expand...
I completely disagree with this for various reasons. The way games have been evolving is by making them more accessible, that's how come there are so many people playing games on Facebook, the DS, Wii, etc lately.
 
D

Dascu

Member
SalsaShark said:
First you said fun, then you said enjoyable. I mean my point is that the game was really enjoyable, but not by fun level design, etc.

Maybe i wasnt clear enough, im talking about the most common description that people who play games give to the word FUN.

Like when someone says "story is good, but im not having any fun, so i quit" I mean you clearly were finding something enjoyable out of the experience, you were enjoying the story, but you stopped playing because you werent having fun, probably refering to the gameplay itself.
Click to expand...
I consider fun to be a synonym of entertaining or enjoyable. Many things can make a game fun, from the story to the graphics to the controls. Take Amnesia: The Dark Descent for instance. It's a horror game through-and-through, but I still consider it to be a fun game.


Edit: This is just a semantic issue.
 
M

MC Safety

Member
Games do not have to be fun like movies do not have to be fun.

Games and movies have to be ENGAGING.

(Like those other guys said.)
 
C

cosmicblizzard

Banned
Someone should get enjoyment out of a game just like they should out of any medium. Since people's definition of fun varies, I don't think we can fully answer this. Some people's idea of fun is complaining about something that they do not find fun.

For me, fun=enjoyment. If I'm emotionally moved by something, I consider it fun. If I am merely amused by something, I consider it fun. So for me, yes games should be fun.
 
Z

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
Trying to define the word "fun" is like trying to define the word "art".

Everybody has their own ideas about what the word means, which makes a topic like this more a semantic thing than anything else.
 
P

Prophet Steve

Member
Ok OP, define fun. I agree with this definition:

Fun is pleasure with surprises. (Jesse Schell, The Art of Game Design).
And then I would have to say yes, a game has to be fun. Although there are different ways in how it can be fun.
 
S

Salsa

Member
Dascu said:
I consider fun to be a synonym of entertaining or enjoyable. Many things can make a game fun, from the story to the graphics to the controls. Take Amnesia: The Dark Descent for instance. It's a horror game through-and-through, but I still consider it to be a fun game.
Click to expand...

Oh i agree, but i just gave you the definition of FUN wich im refering to :p

Its fairly easy to see when you take the examples i gave in OP. The green Mile was an amazing movie, really enjoyable to watch, was it an entertaining movie in the same sense than say.. Transformers is ? (or tries to be, hurr) no.

Keeping with the movie related stuff, some other examples: Under the Olive Trees, Cha no Aji, etc. These films have looong shots, with little to no action, by today standards, knowing what people are used to see, this can be boring. Even to me, watching some of these films wasnt ENTERTAINING, it was interesting, it was enjoyable, and i love both, but they werent entertaining me, nor they were trying to do so. I think games can do the same thing.

Prophet Steve said:
Ok OP, define fun. I agree with this definition:

Fun is pleasure with surprises. (Jesse Schell, The Art of Game Design).
And then I would have to say yes, a game has to be fun. Although there are different ways in how it can be fun.
Click to expand...

By reading my posts in this page (including this one) i think one could understand what type of FUN im refering to.
 
V

Vinterbird

Member
Why would you do that? said:
I completely disagree with this for various reasons. The way games have been evolving is by making them more accessible, that's how come there are so many people playing games on Facebook, the DS, Wii, etc lately.
Click to expand...

I don't think the "fuck fun" mentality should be the mainstream way of doing games. There just needs to be people doing it in the commercial space of video games. It's a topic debated a lot in the academic field these years, and it is forcing some fundamental change in the way games are discussed, analyzed and being written about it.

Looking at material written by Raph Koster, Salen & Zimmerman and Andrew & Rollings shows that the way of thinking about games is way to focused on the fun-factor, which is something that is being written some awesome stuff about these days.
 
D

darkpaladinmfc

Member
Vinterbird said:
I've been saying it for some time, but fuck fun. Games should focus on doing interesting thing within the media, and not focus on having fun level design, fun encounters, fun mechanics or elements like highscores, bonus rounds and crap like that.

If games want to evolve beyond being entertainment for teenage, and something no one can take serious as something else but stupid entertainment, then the arcade roots and mentality needs to die.

Braid was a step in the right direction, and hopefully more stuff goes in that direction soon.
Click to expand...
But some of the best thing about Braid were the fun mechanics and great level design. If the gameplay of Braid was awful then it would be slagged off as a bad game.
 
B

Bebpo

Banned
For a lot of genre, yeah. If I'm playing an action game and it's not fun that's not good. Challenge can be fun though, especially when you develop the skills to overcome it.

But say...a horror game? If you're having fun it's failing at being horror (re)
 
F

Fuu

Formerly Alaluef (not Aladuf)
jPQbD.png
 
Interfectum

Interfectum

Member
Bebpo said:
For a lot of genre, yeah. If I'm playing an action game and it's not fun that's not good. Challenge can be fun though, especially when you develop the skills to overcome it.

But say...a horror game? If you're having fun it's failing at being horror (re)
Click to expand...

People play horror games for the thrill of being scared. It's a form of fun.
 
Majmun

Majmun

Member
Interfectum said:
Yes. Next question?
Click to expand...

Should all music make any sound?

Bebpo said:
For a lot of genre, yeah. If I'm playing an action game and it's not fun that's not good. Challenge can be fun though, especially when you develop the skills to overcome it.

But say...a horror game? If you're having fun it's failing at being horror (re)
Click to expand...

Horror movies/games/book are scary, but it's still fun to watch/play/read them.

This is a really weird question. A game you like is automatically fun.
 
T

Trevelyan

Banned
Good question, and I'm not really sure how to answer. I think the answer is no. To me it's very similar to movies: Requiem for a Dream is a very difficult movie to watch, and I didn't have "fun" while watching it. However, it's an amazing piece of cinema that I still watch on occasion. I think the same can be said for games. Heavy Rain for me wasn't fun, however, it was tense and engaging, and I loved my playthrough of it despite not smiling or laughing while playing it. I hope that makes sense, haha.
 
L

Lostconfused

Member
SalsaShark said:
Even to me, watching some of these films wasnt ENTERTAINING, it was interesting, it was enjoyable, and i love both, but they werent entertaining me, nor they were trying to do so.
Click to expand...

Yeah depending on the definitions you pick for the words you are using, it can seem like you are contradicting you're self.
 
Z

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
SalsaShark said:
By reading my posts in this page (including this one) i think one could understand what type of FUN im refering to.
Click to expand...

Maybe you mean like a "joyful" fun?
 
S

Salsa

Member
Lostconfused said:
Yeah depending on the definitions you pick for the words you are using, it can seem like you are contradicting you're self.
Click to expand...

Enjoyable because of what i was experiencing while watching them, not because they were entertaining to watch.

ZealousD said:
Maybe you mean like a "joyful" fun?
Click to expand...

Mmmmmhhh you might call it that...

Im talking more of a pleasant fun.
 
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