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Digital Foundry VS Bethesda: PS3 Skyrim is still shit

MrPliskin

Banned
People aren't getting it. This isn't an engine problem. It is a design problem. Bethesda refuses to make concessions on the PS3 to deliver an ultimately better product. Frankly, the way data is handled and loaded into memory from save files is the problem, and that is 100% correctable in the design stage.

This is not a case of Gamebryo being a shitty engine (which it is). It is a case of Bethesda wanting to do something on PS3 hardware that stretches it to its absolute limits due to the way PS3's memory is split. If Bethesda makes the conscious choice to only include data for NPC's and Quests, as opposed to every item in the game, then the problem would almost certainly disappear, and save file sizes would be drastically reduced. So what if someone drops and item and it is forever lost when they go back? I'd much rather lose an item (one that I will almost certainly get a better version of later) than I would sit through a fucking slide show every time I boot up the game.
 

danmaku

Member
Should have brought in external help then, this bullshit is being swept under a rug and unsuspecting customers get screwed.

Even if this was a solution (and I'm not sure it would've been), this help would've costed money that their execs didn't want to spend. In the end, it's a managing problem, not a programming one. I agree on the customers getting screwed. They are handling the problem in a terrible way.
 

Hanmik

Member
are there any dates for the DLC out there..? maybe that would be a good indicator for the arrival of the patch.. because if the game isn´t patched before the DLC arrives, and Skyrim behaves like Fallout 3 with DLC on PS3, then I can see this coming...

shitstorm.jpg
 

Gustav

Banned
People aren't getting it. This isn't an engine problem. It is a design problem. Bethesda refuses to make concessions on the PS3 to deliver an ultimately better product. Frankly, the way data is handled and loaded into memory from save files is the problem, and that is 100% correctable in the design stage.

This is not a case of Gamebryo being a shitty engine (which it is). It is a case of Bethesda wanting to do something on PS3 hardware that stretches it to its absolute limits due to the way PS3's memory is split. If Bethesda makes the conscious choice to only include data for NPC's and Quests, as opposed to every item in the game, then the problem would almost certainly disappear, and save file sizes would be drastically reduced. So what if someone drops and item and it is forever lost when they go back? I'd much rather lose an item (one that I will almost certainly get a better version of later) than I would sit through a fucking slide show every time I boot up the game.

And this is why it never will be fixed without fundamentally changing the game.
 

MrPliskin

Banned
And this is why it never will be fixed without fundamentally changing the game.

I don't think it would fundamentally change much about the game at all. I don't believe for a second that persistent items are even a tiny part of what makes these games what they are. No one cares, or notices.

There isn't a lot of benefit to doing this (persistent items) outside of technical wow factor. Someone needs to tell Bethesda that it's okay to "be a game" sometimes, and not everything has to be a living breathing world with real world rules.
 

frequency

Member
I don't think it would fundamentally change much about the game at all. I don't believe for a second that persistent items are even a tiny part of what makes these games what they are. No one cares, or notices.

There isn't a lot of benefit to doing this (persistent items) outside of technical wow factor. Someone needs to tell Bethesda that it's okay to "be a game" sometimes, and not everything has to be a living breathing world with real world rules.

If some jerk knocked over my pot, I'd put the pot back. Or if s/he dropped a potato at my doorstep, I'd throw it out. I wouldn't leave it lying there for months.
 

heringer

Member
People aren't getting it. This isn't an engine problem. It is a design problem. Bethesda refuses to make concessions on the PS3 to deliver an ultimately better product. Frankly, the way data is handled and loaded into memory from save files is the problem, and that is 100% correctable in the design stage.

This is not a case of Gamebryo being a shitty engine (which it is). It is a case of Bethesda wanting to do something on PS3 hardware that stretches it to its absolute limits due to the way PS3's memory is split. If Bethesda makes the conscious choice to only include data for NPC's and Quests, as opposed to every item in the game, then the problem would almost certainly disappear, and save file sizes would be drastically reduced. So what if someone drops and item and it is forever lost when they go back? I'd much rather lose an item (one that I will almost certainly get a better version of later) than I would sit through a fucking slide show every time I boot up the game.

If that would indeed solve the problem, it's a concession I would be willing to make.
 

MrPliskin

Banned
If some jerk knocked over my pot, I'd put the pot back. Or if s/he dropped a potato at my doorstep, I'd throw it out. I wouldn't leave it lying there for months.

Haha, fair enough. You get the point though, Bethesda's idea is that "nothing ever disappears" (at least not for quite some time). Keeping track of all that data is just too much, IMO. They should have gone with a more conventional system, as the benefit of this is marginal, if that, and the trade off's are quite significant.
 
Actually I took frequency's comment to be in agreement with you: by "real world rules" a knocked over pot wouldn't sit on the floor for six months like it does in these games.

A good half-way house would be to store (say) the last thousand moved items, and when you move another one the oldest drops off the queue. That way you still get a reasonable amount of persistence - and in fact with the pot example it is actually more realistic.
 
Skyrim patch by the end of the month says Eurogamer

"We've been reaching out to a number of those users to collect save games, so we can take a look at their specific issues," read a BethesdaBlog post.
"Right now we know it's not one thing, but a combination of smaller ones that some folks are seeing, but others are not. Some seem to be the PS3 autosaving in the background (you can turn that off), some may be SPU AI updates, and some may relate to dynamic system memory allocation."

We'll see...
 

sloppyjoe_gamer

Gold Member


Key from the article...

"A new patch for The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim due before the end of January will tackle the lag problems currently blighting many Playstation 3 gamers, Bethesda has announced.

We're addressing that in the 1.4 update planned for this month, read a post on the developer's twitter feed in response to a query as to when the notorious Rimlag issue would be fixed."
 
Key from the article...

"A new patch for The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim due before the end of January will tackle the lag problems currently blighting many Playstation 3 gamers, Bethesda has announced.

We're addressing that in the 1.4 update planned for this month, read a post on the developer's twitter feed in response to a query as to when the notorious Rimlag issue would be fixed."

0340_f9q7.gif


if it actually fixes it
 

sloppyjoe_gamer

Gold Member
Only have a PS3 and Wii so im REALLY hoping this 1.4 patch takes care of the PS3 issues. If it does, ill be there the next day to pick up my copy.
 

Yoritomo

Member
Haha, fair enough. You get the point though, Bethesda's idea is that "nothing ever disappears" (at least not for quite some time). Keeping track of all that data is just too much, IMO. They should have gone with a more conventional system, as the benefit of this is marginal, if that, and the trade off's are quite significant.

No. Only on PS3 maybe but on the platforms that can actually handle that data, no.
 

Galactic Fork

A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
Wow, they finally owned up to the issue and admit it's affecting many PS3 users instead of it being occasional, or affecting a few. Improvement!

Wait, no, that was just from the article. Oh well.
 
A good half-way house would be to store (say) the last thousand moved items, and when you move another one the oldest drops off the queue. That way you still get a reasonable amount of persistence - and in fact with the pot example it is actually more realistic.
I thought the initial 'fix' did something like this already? (which is why the save files got smaller?)
 

Seik

Banned
Glad to see there's a patch coming. Maybe I'll wait for the GOTY version on PS3 when it'll come out before buying...if all those problems are fixed. I have something against buying a game that's basically broken, even if its patched. We'll see...
 

Demon Ice

Banned
Here's hoping the patches for the PS3 version are better than the shit they put out for the PC. Latest patch has my game crashing daily.
 
If Bethesda makes the conscious choice to only include data for NPC's and Quests, as opposed to every item in the game, then the problem would almost certainly disappear, and save file sizes would be drastically reduced. So what if someone drops and item and it is forever lost when they go back? I'd much rather lose an item (one that I will almost certainly get a better version of later) than I would sit through a fucking slide show every time I boot up the game.

It seems like NPCs and quests are a pretty huge part of the problem though. Lots of people report issues after finishing the main quest, which doesn't really add many items to the world, but it does involve a lot of NPCs. I would guess most players are doing a lot more exploring/questing vs. tossing junk items around. Reducing the number of junk items couldn't hurt, but I think all the persistent NPCs and quest items have a larger impact.
 

Jharp

Member
This fiasco has made me almost grateful for my YLOD. I'd have gotten the game on PS3 if it hadn't been for that happening two weeks before the release. Ended up getting the 360 instead, and dodged a bullet.

Of course, I should have just gone with the PC in the first place >_>
 

Simo

Member
This is the US cover of the January issue. They reviewed Skyrim and gave it a perfect 10 and also bestowed upon it the prestigious Gold Award. It's hard to believe they actually played the game for any length of time because you would think they would have mentioned the numerous performance problems the PS3 version is riddled with. Ignorance must truly be bliss to not have noticed any performance problems.

What upsets me most about the review is how extremely positive and enthusiastic it is. It's the type of review that makes you order the game right after reading it. I thought I was reading an ad from Bethesda at times. The copy could have come directly from them considering how lavishly the reviewer praised the game.

Reviews are supposed to help your customers make purchasing decisions. Clearly, this spineless magazine was serving a different customer.

64bd6354b0237cc11f5fe03dcb0662d7.jpg


Figured I'd post this for those interested but I finally managed to get that new issue of OPM UK and the cover mention is due to their well written 3 page review where they scored it a 7 out of 10. Here's the closing comment:
So far I'm having an incredible time. I don't want it to end, but it could do so at any point. The patch seems to only be a temporary fix, and what hope is there for those of you without online access? I love the game - I really do - but I can't give it a higher score in its current state. That would be unfair to anyone forking out 40 pounds for something that might work.

The most amazing game of the year is in here somewhere. I really hope Bethesda eventually gets it out.

For the record OPM UK gave Oblivion a perfect 10.

EDIT: Actually rereading the magazine and they do have a special article about the PS3 issues.
 

Hanmik

Member
any ETA for the patch..? still waiting for comfirmation that I can play Skyrim on my ps3 without LAG..

ha ha.. just read this on the EU Playstation forums..

Hello,

About four weeks ago, Skyrim was working fine, other than the lag issue, then the game wouldn't load my saves, then the saves corrupted, and now it's effected my whole system, and my £350 Playstation Slim is dead. Every save, gone. And I've been playing for 4 years on this console after transferring the hard drive from my old 'Fat' model to my 'slim' (That I did 2 year's ago and it worked fine).

I am infuriated by this, and have decided to no longer buy Bethesda games, even though they were one of my favourite developers before this incident.

So, Please, trust me and don't play Skyrim until the due update. Don't take the risk.

Thankyou.

-Connor McKay

I'm on my Slim model. Wich has been fine, then the game stopped during play and the system powered itself off, and now won't turn on because of 'Corrupted Files'

And every other game can save fine, I've been playing UC3, ACR, LBP2 and Rayman Origins recently

And even if it didn't kill my PS3, wich I'm certain it did. I have still lost 300+ Hours of gameplay
.

I don't play my PS3 for long peroids of time, there's a miniscule chance that it overheated, At the longest I'll play it for 3 hours, and I have a colling fan under my console.
.

http://community.eu.playstation.com...DO-NOT-PLAY-SKYRIM-UNTIL-UPDATE/td-p/14835485

I love when people connect the dots the wrong way..
 

GenericUser

Member
any ETA for the patch..?
nothing official. if we're lucky, the patch is already at sony for certification.
I personally think it will hit monday/tuesday next week.

still waiting for comfirmation that I can play Skyrim on my ps3 without LAG..
most likely not going to happen, as sad as it makes me to tell you this.
the part of the patch notes that tackles the ps3 problem says nothing about fixing, only optimizing:

bethblog said:
Long term play optimizations for memory and performance (PS3)

http://www.bethblog.com/2012/01/19/news-on-the-creation-kit-and-game-updates/#more-17547

As many people in this thread already said, the problem is nothing new on the ps3. The fallout games are affected as well. It seems that bethesda is unable to really fix the problem.
 

Anteater

Member
nothing official. if we're lucky, the patch is already at sony for certification.
I personally think it will hit monday/tuesday next week.


most likely not going to happen, as sad as it makes me to tell you this.
the part of the patch notes that tackles the ps3 problem says nothing about fixing, only optimizing:



http://www.bethblog.com/2012/01/19/news-on-the-creation-kit-and-game-updates/#more-17547

As many people in this thread already said, the problem is nothing new on the ps3. The fallout games are affected as well. It seems that bethesda is unable to really fix the problem.

If the past few patches were anything to go by, the certification takes a bit over a week, and usually Bethesda update on their forum and blog when they're submitted for certification, so I wouldn't count on it hitting that early, but of course I could be wrong and they could be quicker this time.
 
any ETA for the patch..? still waiting for comfirmation that I can play Skyrim on my ps3 without LAG..

ha ha.. just read this on the EU Playstation forums..

Well, they just updated their blog and said it's still in development and they're currently beta testing the patch with PC users

What does beta mean? This patch is still in development. Apply the update at your own risk and only if you are affected by issues listed in the fix notes.

http://www.bethblog.com/2012/01/23/now-on-steam-beta-update-for-skyrim/

That's one hell of a gamble to take.
 

Hanmik

Member
Just read this..

Bethesda have released the beta version of patch 1.4 via Steam for owners of the PC version of the game. In its reference notes are many quest and bug fixes, but also this interesting line:

Optimized bookshelf script in player-owned houses that would occasionally cause active scripts to lag and also cause an increase to saved games filesize (PS3)

Making explicit reference to the PS3 within the patch notes, it seems that Bethesda have isolated that lag and file save issue. It was those pesky bookshelves! And, while it wont be a major patch point for PC gamers, when that update eventually lands on the PS3, it'll likely prove a massive help for fans of the game.

The only question that remains now is, when will it hit the PS3?

http://www.techdigest.tv/2012/01/ps3_skyrim_lag.html

I really hope this is right..
 

Anteater

Member
So January is ending today..

Bethesda : "o brother PATCH where art thou ?" ..

iuy7wsbjcwr7fovc2t.gif

I think they said they're submitting the patch this week (so it hasn't been submitted yet)

http://www.bethblog.com/2012/01/30/now-on-steam-beta-update-for-skyrim/#comments

(in one of the comments)

So probably will take a week or two the earliest...


gstaff said on Monday, January 30, 2012 at 9:15 pm:
update should be here soon. We’re releasing the update on PC and submitting to consoles this week.
 

zugzug

Member
As rohlfinator pointed out, this isn't a new problem for Bethesda on the PS3. It's not one of those bugs that just comes out of nowhere after a game is released. This same issue is in Fallout 3 and New Vegas. Both of those are still broken. They've had more than enough time to address this issue, but instead of doing that they just continue to release games that have the same exact problem.

Then dosen't this become a Playstation Quality issue with the Playstation people not bringing the clamps down on Bethesda.

We keep hearing about Microsoft denying patches because of quality issues.
 
Then dosen't this become a Playstation Quality issue with the Playstation people not bringing the clamps down on Bethesda.

We keep hearing about Microsoft denying patches because of quality issues.

This would've been different than denying patches. Sony would've had to block the game entirely. I don't think MS, Sony or Nintendo would be willing to do something like that for a big multiplatform game.
 

zugzug

Member
so is the game unplayable or how did i see a guy on the PS3 with a platnium for skyrim. I get that it seems to build up into longer hour game saves. I saw a youtube of a guy saying his 120hour save file got corrupted and simply would not load up Whiterun.

I'm confuzzled.How a guy could platnium game yet everyone else's view is never ever buy it for PS3 and Bestheda is completely scamming everyone.
 

LiquidMetal14

hide your water-based mammals
I think this is slightly blown over a little. That patch is coming though. Console players are missing out on Beth's new beta patches like we've had on Steam. I believe these are fed directly by them so we see them a lot more often. We've had 3 beta patches this month alone.

I hope the PS3 issues are ironed out for the most part with the coming patch.
 
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