shinobi602
Member
This has gotten way out of hand lol.
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Ryse crunching team served 11,500 dinners by ship date #rysefacts
- Thread starter Wario64
- Start date
AlphaTwo00
Member
Well the ballparking of schedule has always been a black art to me, and for the longest time I was trying to understand how it works, or ask my peers/managers to get a good sense of how they arrived at such numbers. Sadly, it's either "winging it" or "by previous attempts", both are problematic because it may not be enough to account for development of new ideas and new technology, nor does it account for technical/mechanical hurdles.
With that in mind though, realistically a good project should be able to not just anticipate such issues, but have a proper resolution to deal with it, be it a)more external manpower onboard, b)cut features or c)extend the project.
You may notice that the 3 solutions are basically the points of the Iron Triangle. Crunch time is an attempt to break the triangle and lie to everyone involved that quality is still kept.
For a while I did too, it was the rite of passage story that you tell everyone, it's the story that makes you "in" it. Now I just look back and laugh at all the shit I missed out on.
More importantly, people in games can talk about crunch because it's a fact (so it's not a big deal), but it's pretty much the only way they can allude to potentially problematic issues within their company without outright saying. You definitely don't want to be the guy publicly saying "our management sucks at scheduling", cause that might as well be your last day in the industry.
So I think I get the gist of it now. Correct me if I'm wrong GAF.
It's the "gloating" about it that people don't like. Would I be correct in assuming that you will happily purchase and play a game that was built under the same conditions, so long as you don't hear about the crunch.
In which case it's analogous to the electronics we all continue to buy provided we are ignorant of how they are made.
Fair summary?
It's the "gloating" about it that people don't like. Would I be correct in assuming that you will happily purchase and play a game that was built under the same conditions, so long as you don't hear about the crunch.
In which case it's analogous to the electronics we all continue to buy provided we are ignorant of how they are made.
Fair summary?
silver.tongue
Member
Just seen this.
Tweet backfire anyone? lol
The internet takes the fun out of everything. =(
Tweet backfire anyone? lol
The internet takes the fun out of everything. =(
You're trying to make this rhetorical and clever but it's not working, because what you said is sort of silly.
Bad shit happens in game development (& any industry) but the idea that you gloat about it is an indicator that the people in charge don't take it seriously and are almost wearing it as a badge of honor. Every time we crunched when I was at a big studio the good producers would take it as a sign of failure, and do a lot of introspective thinking about how they could improve things to avoid the same thing occurring on the next project. The bad ones saw it as a 'reality' of game development that 'happens on every project' and never pushed to improve their practices, which meant things either stayed the same or got worse in the future.
Can you understand why it's important that the people in charge don't treat things like crunch lightly? Essentially their workers are sacrificing their personal lives to bail out the company, like a government bail out, the least the company can do is accept that this isn't a desired scenario and do what they can to avoid ending up here again in the future.
Crunch is a sign of failure, yes it's considered common in our industry but no it shouldn't be considered normal. The best studios are all working towards eliminating crunch where they can because in the long run you make better games and you make them faster if you can retain talented staff and keep a balance. It is not hypocritical to both perform crunch and also see crunch as a failure that needs to be rectified in the future, they are not mutually exclusive actions.
uncledonnie
Banned
True, but if the development team is not burnt out, is emotionally invested in the project, and doesn't feel taken advantage of, then it can be a point of pride even for the developers. And I say that speaking from experience.
No doubt there have been plenty of bad instances of this in the games industry, especially with EA, but I don't think you can assume just from the tweet that that's the case here. Would be good to hear from someone actually on the development team before making assumptions.
Anyone who is looking forward to eating a crappy (often lukewarm) dinner at work instead of going home and eating a real dinner is a figure worthy of some tiny amount of pity; especially because said dinner will often be quickly consumed at that person's desk between compiles/builds/etc...
AlphaTwo00
Member
You have to remember that this is an industry where everyone wants in, where people are willing to work well below the average for their actual job skill level (especially for programmers), just to make games. It's a type of indoctrination that happens because if you don't do it, the company knows that you're just as replaceable as the next kid that thinks they're a hot shit and can do what you're doing for less and won't complain about the hours.
To be fair, there is an argument that it's a mark of passion the coders have for their product, and there's certainly some truth to that.
Of course, as it mounts up, it burns away at that passion until it runs out, and then you're left with an embittered husk of a person with little to no motivation.
QUOTE=AlphaTwo00;86254345]For a while I did too, it was the rite of passage story that you tell everyone, it's the story that makes you "in" it. Now I just look back and laugh at all the shit I missed out on.[/quote]
My PB was an 7AM finish, in again by about 1PM the same day.
To be fair, that *was* a one-off. Why, for the rest of that week, I think I was safely home by 4AM!
This was the approach Team Bondi took, they also had a love of ludicrous amounts of unpaid overtime that was well catered. Companies that employ these tactics are ultimately unsustainable due to the horrendous morale & technical problems they create.
Friends told me stories about key programmers leaving that team and entire game systems had to be abandoned & then re-designed & re-programmed because the original designer had also left months earlier and nobody else knew how the system worked. Exploitation in such a creative and high tech industry is never going to be a sustainable approach.
SniperHunter
Banned
hahaha awesomeEven better one:
PetriP-TNT
Member
I dun get it, why is it better?
More Fun To Compute
Member
I love how the game industry employs inexperienced 20 somethings to take advantage of the fact that they are so eager to overwork themselves until they burn out. It's such a cool thing that marketing should push it harder.
dragonelite
Member
Rice > potatoes?
If you believe that the industry is not only doing good for their workers but also for their future with this shit happening, you really are short-sighted. This burns people at work, burns people at home and for sure this ends not only in crunchtime, not paid hours and shitty diet. It also tends to low morale, low attachment to the place of work and of course bad results.
Anybody who thinks that this shit is something to make fun of or not to consider it almost like abuse, is just crazy.
I see that @Paz already explained it to you, and showed how this usually ends with Team Bondy. Another example could be simply that article of the wifes from workers in Rockstar.
Everybody crunches in tech. Most crunches last only a week or so but the game industry is different due to importance in making dates. I'd never take an engineering job in gaming if I'm expected to crunch all the time, plus work 12 hour days at non-crunch for less pay than being an engineer at a tech company like Google or Amazon.
AlphaTwo00
Member
I'm not saying I'm justifying it, I'm pointing out how it's happening. Been there, done that, seen a fair share of peers get burned out, thought about getting out when the worst of it was happening to me (see my much earlier post about my own crunch experiences: yes, I even brought a sleeping bag in), listened to management thinking it'd get better next project (hint: didn't, downsized because project wasn't successful, so no next project), hung around banging on doors to see if I can still be in the industry, but deep down inside, I really wasn't sure if I was up for more of the insane hours and crunch.
It is abuse, it's crazy, but it funny to see how either their PR or management doesn't get any of it.
Damn near what happened to me. Eventually I came to the conclusion that I was just turning 30 at that point, perhaps it was better to look outside. And I'm perfectly content in my new employment, safely outside the industry looking in.
I want to buy a nap pod so bad.....but i have no room to put it lol
uncledonnie
Banned
It's not just the games industry that has ridiculous dates. I have been involved in extended crunches in software development projects related to everything from AIDS research to mortgage banking. Unfortunately many projects start with a release date and plan backwards from that.
It can definitely be bad if it's abused, but it isn't always a bad thing. That's why I don't think the backlash is necessarily justified without hearing from the development team.
Ryce.
Messofanego
Banned
Prime crotch
Banned
fuck crunch times and whoever think it should be normalised
40 hours week lol I wish I worked that weekly
40 hours week lol I wish I worked that weekly
That argument would onlywork if crunch time wasn't an "institution." If you're expected (or required) by the management to work past normal hours it's not a sign of passion.
Prime crotch
Banned
I can attest to this. Consultancy IT is basically a place where people expect you to at least put an extra hour of work, just because, and it suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks
Well it mostly depends on how long the crunch lasts. We have them in the animation industry as well, but they are pretty rare, and usually last a week, or we have to come in and work on a week-end (and we get a bonus). In these cases, the investment of the team is a reality.
But crunching regularly for long periods of time = stupid. All of my friends who work for various video games studios (Ubi, Eidos, Warner, EA, etc.) have to crunch for weeks before each milestone.
What makes me shake my head is that crunch periods are planned in the overall budget and organisation of the projects they're working on.
uncledonnie
Banned
Yeah planning ahead for it is pretty ridiculous.
I have a friend that used to work for Epic, and they did extended crunches but the bonuses they got for it were unreal (no pun intended). If I remember right it was like 1.5 times yearly salary when Gears 3 shipped for example. Sign me up for a crunch like that any time.
Dance Inferno
Unconfirmed Member
I used to work in a field where "crunch" was my regular way of life. We also got unreal bonuses, but the trade-off wasn't worth it to me. Yes you got paid a lot, but you didn't have any time to spend with friends or do the things that make you happy. Your bank account grew, but you didn't have the time to spend it on anything.
If crunch only comes along every now and then and you're compensated for it, then I guess I can see that being OK. Schedules don't always go to plan and if you need to pull your socks up for a few weeks before the release of a game then that's part of the job. If the crunch lasts months upon months, then that's where it starts to turn into a soul-crushing aspect of the job that could have adverse effects on your well-being.
Prime crotch
Banned
You do get to develop a taste for refined alchool.
Aussie Legend
Banned
AAA development getting out of hand? You don't say...
It doesnt help that crytek has a history of overworking employees
Depends where they live. In a major city in california is pretty high -- programmer could make $75,000 starting. In the midwest it'd be closer to $50,000.
Designers and artists make significantly less.
The Cartographer
Member
What's crunch?
DeviantBoi
Member
Dunno if this was posted:
klei ‏@klei
By the time #DontStarve ships for #PS4, our team will have had over 700 dinners at home with their families. #DontStarveFacts #RyseFacts
klei ‏@klei
By the time #DontStarve ships for #PS4, our team will have had over 700 dinners at home with their families. #DontStarveFacts #RyseFacts
'crunch' is the term used for the overtime and extra work / crazy cramming of features at art usually at the end of a project to meet the deadline, traditionally this was in the last month of development, but has now slipped to up to 6 months, and then at crucial development times, ie. 2 months before e3, or a demo is released, or the reveal, or milestones like greenlight, alpha and beta. Often full time employees get no overtime pay for this
I saw a comment somewhere and the person had done the maths and worked out that with a team of 200 they probably did around 58 days of crunch being served meals. In my experience you only get served meals when its big time crunch, not normal crunch, so they could have been working alot of extra before this, or that meals were only served at the weekend etc. Unsure of pay laws in mainland Europe so can't comment on compensation for it,,, would expect not.
I saw a comment somewhere and the person had done the maths and worked out that with a team of 200 they probably did around 58 days of crunch being served meals. In my experience you only get served meals when its big time crunch, not normal crunch, so they could have been working alot of extra before this, or that meals were only served at the weekend etc. Unsure of pay laws in mainland Europe so can't comment on compensation for it,,, would expect not.
paolo11
Member
So like $30 an hour estimately? That's not bad.
But the stress is intense so it's a trade off.
What happens if the project is over? Do you get paid while waiting for a project or is it more of a contract based project job?
Harlock
Member
In small companies crunch is less bad, because everyone knows what need be made and are helping one other. But in big teams what can happen is create the culture of everyone need to be until later hours or will be seeing as a bum. So, if I need stay until later hours anyway, I will not work at full force by the morning. And this become an evil cycle. Happen a lot in internet companies and ad agencies.
The Cartographer
Member
Thank you for your explanation.
dragonelite
Member
Isn't that a port job and is it a launch title?
Its a completely different scope if im not mistaken.
Of course there is, from those who know nothing about what it's like to go through it.
What a stupid tweet.