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GamesRadar: Its time for Nintendo to admit defeat and make a true next-gen console
- Thread starter Poetic.Injustice
- Start date
For people who say power alone would not solve their third party relations, I would agree with them. But I do not agree that it would be meaningless. Providing a reasonably powerful console would go a very long way to mend relations. It wouldn't be some panacea, but no one will support Nintendo moving forward if they do not provide a system that can run modern engines easily.
IrishNinja
Member
again, you're thinking of Rare. you could stretch Metroid Prime under Retro as "western" but sadly that series didn't set the world on fire either, sales-wise.
not playing to your very specifically put-together design teams =/= "stubborn." i for one constantly write letters to Codemasters to have them finally give me the rhythm game i want, yet still they refuse!
Am I living in some alternate reality where Sony and Microsoft stop trying?
It's all well and good to have a platform with equal footing, but let's be honest, Sony and MS also throw 3rd-parties a LOT of marketing dollars to brand certain games with their console logo all over them, and unless Nintendo is going to do a LOT of marketing subsidizing to counter-act that, people are still going to buy on Sony and MS platforms.
You also will have to undo 10+ years of Nintendo games not getting 3rd-party games out of a consumer's head, when that has become the expectation since the Gamecube era, when they were still competing on equal footing.
There's really no easy way around it, one platform of equal power capability doesn't make this problem magically vanish, it just lessens the severity of it. The ROI isn't worth it until Nintendo has one less competitor to fend off and isn't seen as a 3rd wheel, no matter if the reason would remained justified or not when on equal footing. When MS gets its new CEO and they kill the Xbox brand like nearly every investor prays they will, THEN Nintendo might have a fighting chance at making a dent with JUST a parity in horsepower.
Nintendo have been in just about every hardware phase possible, in just their previous 3 generations alone, having had:
- The most powerful hardware(N64)
- The most competitive hardware(GCN)
- The least powerful hardware, by far(Wii).
In each case, it is proven that there are a LOT more factors involve in the 'success' of a console, than how powerful it is alone. Hardware is the least of Nintendo's/Wii U's problems right now(or ever), so it's time to lay up off the naive obsession/argument.
- The most powerful hardware(N64)
- The most competitive hardware(GCN)
- The least powerful hardware, by far(Wii).
In each case, it is proven that there are a LOT more factors involve in the 'success' of a console, than how powerful it is alone. Hardware is the least of Nintendo's/Wii U's problems right now(or ever), so it's time to lay up off the naive obsession/argument.
Rare? Oh you mean the guys Nintendo owned 49% of and were second party and made games exclusive for Nintendo? That Rare?
They didn't need to sell it
They could have continued fostering western studios
Again, the reason why Nintendo does not create games compelling to the western market is because
They just don't fucking feel like it.
Bucket-o-roadkill
Member
I thought that. A pretty baffling statement in conjunction with the facts we all know. But hey, it must be strong coolaid.
The next Nintendo console should be:
1.) £99/$99. Maybe £129/$129 as a ceiling
2.) Traditional controller, but with legacy support for GC and Wii controllers
3.) Similar in power to Wii U. Maybe a slight bump. 500GB HDD.
4.) Small, quiet, functional hardware design
5.) Strong emphasis on digital, the eShop and Virtual Console. Greatly increased rollout of Virtual Console content spanning the whole Nintendo history, including GameCube and Wii games available digitally.
6.) Pikmin 3, Wonderful 101, SM3DW, Wind Waker HD and Mario Kart 8 rebranded and available at launch. After this, rebrand all future HD projects to the new system and not Wii U.
I feel like price and place of market are more important to Nintendo than power. Nintendo's existence in the home console market is now almost entirely as a secondary console to another system for those who need their Mario and Zelda fix. It has to be affordable and it has to be in impulse buy territory.
They should also play up to their superb history and back catalogue as much as anything else. Vastly expanded digital library, which should be a selling point of the system. A $99-$129 box that could play everybody's old favourite Nintendo games with newer HD stuff in one convenient box, would sell very well I believe and sit alongside many a PS4, Xbox or PC.
1.) £99/$99. Maybe £129/$129 as a ceiling
2.) Traditional controller, but with legacy support for GC and Wii controllers
3.) Similar in power to Wii U. Maybe a slight bump. 500GB HDD.
4.) Small, quiet, functional hardware design
5.) Strong emphasis on digital, the eShop and Virtual Console. Greatly increased rollout of Virtual Console content spanning the whole Nintendo history, including GameCube and Wii games available digitally.
6.) Pikmin 3, Wonderful 101, SM3DW, Wind Waker HD and Mario Kart 8 rebranded and available at launch. After this, rebrand all future HD projects to the new system and not Wii U.
I feel like price and place of market are more important to Nintendo than power. Nintendo's existence in the home console market is now almost entirely as a secondary console to another system for those who need their Mario and Zelda fix. It has to be affordable and it has to be in impulse buy territory.
They should also play up to their superb history and back catalogue as much as anything else. Vastly expanded digital library, which should be a selling point of the system. A $99-$129 box that could play everybody's old favourite Nintendo games with newer HD stuff in one convenient box, would sell very well I believe and sit alongside many a PS4, Xbox or PC.
The Maverick
Member
I've yet to hear any argument against a hybrid console that made me believe that there is a better alternative for Nintendo. If you have one, I'd love to hear it.
I have checked their profit sheets. The game has changed. One game costs more than it ever has before. Nintendo themselves have even underestimated how much it takes to make an HD game. The reason those past profits are misleading is because Nintendo started on this path while they were taking in the cash.
Did they make any effort to recruit third parties with the 64?
Why did they choose smaller disks than the rest of the industry with the GCN?
When the Wii was booming, did they plan for the transistion to HD development?
People's problem with Nintendo stems from the fact that they have been due this awakening for a long time. And instead of making any sort of long term plan, Nintendo just operates in its own box. There was a time where the company could get away with that and still succeed. That time has passed.
I hope I addressed your comment above.
IrishNinja
Member
you're vastly oversimplifying the Rare situation, where they didn't "sell it" so much as not buy it when the brothers wanted a high amount - and from several claims ive read, no gaurantee of retaining teams/talent. it's unfortunate (moreso for Rare than anyone i'd wager) that they didn't stay into the GC era but that's how ti went.
and sure, they could have, but again i don't think you understand the teams you're speaking on - nintendo is very careful about such acquisitions (Shikimaru has many excellent posts on this) and making sure they fit their specific design philosophy: Rare very clearly did (Conker, Banjo, and Diddy Racing were up there with first party quality for some, the other stuff like Blast Corps, PD/007, Gemini etc filled a void). Look how Eternal Darkness came out under their guidance, where SK wasn't able to reach that level of quality again, showing they would've been a poor choice.
no doubt they'd very much love to have another Rare this gen, but again, you're being reductive here, illustrated by:
ah, you're taking the piss again. do you likewise think Sony's not giving its fans a platformer on par with SMB3DW because they "don't fucking feel like it"?
AyaisMUsikWhore
Member
I think of the Wii U the same way I did when it first debuted. It's a tablet console. It's not innovative nor is it new. Tablets are everywhere especially considering the iPad is the top product. A parent is not going to stop in gamestops or any brick mortar shop to buy their tablet wanting kid a Wii U. I knew from the get that the tablet thing wasn't going to work because it's not exactly where the market it going. We have them but their usages are being coupled with other Secondary pieces like smart watches and glass technology. Tablets are being treated like full blown portable PCs and I was hoping Nintendo would see that. Dedicating and entire tablet, one per console without other functionality and not being able to move a certain distance without it is what killed them.
All games aside, the business decision to make a tablet based console was the biggest offense that is costing them. But then again, maybe the Nintendo magic is wearing off slowly as the year goes by as our interest mature to other things. This has nothing with Nintendo looking and feeling like a kids brand but mostly the fact that the cutting edge is now more desirable in a family setting than cheap and family friendly. All of those bases have been covered by other hardware manufacturer and Nintendo software is the only thing they have left.
All games aside, the business decision to make a tablet based console was the biggest offense that is costing them. But then again, maybe the Nintendo magic is wearing off slowly as the year goes by as our interest mature to other things. This has nothing with Nintendo looking and feeling like a kids brand but mostly the fact that the cutting edge is now more desirable in a family setting than cheap and family friendly. All of those bases have been covered by other hardware manufacturer and Nintendo software is the only thing they have left.
Nobody wants a platformer on par with SMB3DW, or have you not been paying attention to Wii U sales?
Whitechocolatekrispies
Banned
I think you'll find GR are looking at sales figures, opinion polls and general company performances and attitudes.
Nintendo is in the shit house.
Shit sales.
Shit support.
Shit hardware.
Shit games.
Shit hype.
Shit future.
Sony and Microsoft, even in their darkest days still had more support than Nintendo has in this generation.
All the fans of Nintendos core games (Mario etc) are getting older and less interested. The new younger generation are growing up in an age of Playstations and Xboxs, Mario and co are getting trampled under the likes of COD and GTA. Soon Nintendos core fans will move on and they'll die off.
You almost had me there
BurnOutBrighter
Banned
Even if they did, it wouldn't solve the problem of its abysmal third party support, and 1990s online service.
Yeah I'd call it a day, start from scratch admit your mistake and design something for the current gen. They have the 3ds to keep them going, Wii u is fecked. Before you ask yes I have one, zelda special edition but damn it's just doomed. My ps4 arrival has meant its moved into nephews room and abandoned by me I will not sit by and have one game every few months which is where it's heading sadly. Ah well for when I'm not playing my ps4 or pc I have my new zelda on 3ds to give me my Nintendo high 
.
.
IrishNinja
Member
yes i imagine i would make a post like this if i didn't want to actually discuss things, too
Not everyone gets 13 each birthday.
Sony has felt no need to create AAA platformers, unless we count Little Big Planet? There is an audience of western male gamers out there who are more concerned about other genres. There is nothing preventing a company of the caliber of Nintendo, with billions in cash, with a history of creating games which appeal to this demographic during the N64 days, from creating them today apart from just not wanting to. They do not have to focus solely on family fare. We do not need to create apologist rationales for their stubborness.
Pancakes R Us
Member
This is a joke, right? Nintendo is barely getting used to HD development with Wii U, but they should release a a true next gen console? The rate at which Nintendo would release games for that potential console would be even slower than now. And that would be worse because third parties still wouldn't be interested because the audience for their games on XBOX/PS no longer exists on Nintendo systems and isn't likely to come back.
IrishNinja
Member
bolded bit: the demographic that plays/supports Mario, Zelda, Fire Emblem and the many franchises still currently supported?
this isn't "apologist rationale", this is literally you not seeming to know what EAD teams, IS etc have made for many years now & continue to make. anyone giving a cursory search to your thread history - NIntendo GTA, AAA FPS (not recognizing that the Rare that brought these is over a decade gone), "MATURE" zelda game etc - realizes this, and yet you continued asking & ignoring answers until ducky thankfully shut it down. there's definitely some stubbornness here, but it's not nintendo, man.
The N64 games you're refering to were still whimsical in nature and had stylized art. That's why I liked them.
There is no modern day equivalent of Perfect Dark. Timesplitters was the last of its kind. Shit doesn't fly anymore, hence Nintendo abandoned that genre. There is absolutely no way Nintendo should even contemplate developing a bland military shooter, a Forza killer or something along the lines of Uncharted. Never.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Being a third party publisher they would get a MUCH smaller cut of sales and unless you expect all their games to sell that much more to offset that, it would mean that Nintendo would need to be even more risk adverse and conservative which is not a good thing.
bolded bit: the demographic that plays/supports Mario, Zelda, Fire Emblem and the many franchises still currently supported?
this isn't "apologist rationale", this is literally you not seeming to know what EAD teams, IS etc have made for many years now & continue to make. anyone giving a cursory search to your thread history - NIntendo GTA, AAA FPS (not recognizing that the Rare that brought these is over a decade gone), "MATURE" zelda game etc - realizes this, and yet you continued asking & ignoring answers until ducky thankfully shut it down. there's definitely some stubbornness here, but it's not nintendo, man.
Knack isn't AAA and it isn't a platformer.
Monty Mole
Member
I'm not sure that's the best example of a Sony 'AAA platformer'. It's had a far from AAA critical reception, was made with a low budget by a small new team and most importantly, isn't much of a platformer at all.
What it is, is a game aimed at a male 11-14 demographic. But it still has too many explosions to be a truly 'family' game.
I'd love to see Sony get behind a team like ND, Sucker Punch or SSM to make a big-budget platformer. But that's not something they seem to be willing to do anymore, even Ratchet has gone down in its budget and scope, and it took a small independent third party team to get a new Sly. Only Nintendo is putting that kind of cash and talent behind family-focused videogames these days.
IrishNinja
Member
^ it's admittedly a launch title, but it's a platformer. AAA based on critical reception is also a very new metric for me - point is, acting like SMB3DW isn't something people want because it's on a struggling platform that's well above what the market would pay for it is still pretty silly, even for logz.
exactly. logic like his got Capcom to try to "westernize" some of their key franchises, usually to poor results..and let's not even start on the outsourcing.
exactly. logic like his got Capcom to try to "westernize" some of their key franchises, usually to poor results..and let's not even start on the outsourcing.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
Surely you are not looking at this situation business wise lol
Monty Mole
Member
A new metric? It's the original metric AAA actually meant, before every publisher, developer and its dog started calling their own in-development projects AAA. Now it seems to refer more to the budget involved, but still Knack isn't up there is terms of commitment from Sony for the points I raised in my earlier post. And you really need to understand what a 'platformer' actually is.
Probably!
I just checked the Wiki which has the 3DS at 34 million but then links this article which sounds more like what you're saying.
Ah yes, the Nintendo-for-kids argument never gets old! Been hearing the same thing for decades now, clearly folk like me have forgotten to grow up.
IrishNinja
Member
setting aside the AAA bit:
i admittedly only played a few hours, but nothing about that experience wasn't a platformer. wiki agrees with me,sony too. if you really want to debate this, why not tell me what about it disqualifies it for you?
i admittedly only played a few hours, but nothing about that experience wasn't a platformer. wiki agrees with me,sony too. if you really want to debate this, why not tell me what about it disqualifies it for you?
Whitechocolatekrispies
Banned
Monty Mole
Member
Because there is very, very little actual platforming. It's more a brawler. Uncharted is more of a platformer, even Half-Life, than Knack. But it's fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but it still stands that Sony isn't investing their biggest budgets and most talented teams in to family games as they were 10 years ago, whilst Nintendo is. Microsoft is even worse, they even have a studio which was the king of 3D platformers and they fucked them over.
bolded bit: the demographic that plays/supports Mario, Zelda, Fire Emblem and the many franchises still currently supported?
this isn't "apologist rationale", this is literally you not seeming to know what EAD teams, IS etc have made for many years now & continue to make. anyone giving a cursory search to your thread history - NIntendo GTA, AAA FPS (not recognizing that the Rare that brought these is over a decade gone), "MATURE" zelda game etc - realizes this, and yet you continued asking & ignoring answers until ducky thankfully shut it down. there's definitely some stubbornness here, but it's not nintendo, man.
Nintendo is a massive company with tremendous resources. The only reason they focus on family fare exclusively is stubborness. Nothing more. Long ago Disney diversified their portfolio, creating studios that would make mature movies they did not want associated with the Disney brand but still saw a need in creating. Nintendo has not bothered themselves to do the same. They could have reained Rare and replace talent as needed. They could have created new studios to create mature games as their established talent worked on their staples.
Nintendo is short sighted and stubborn. That is why the Wii U is such a mess.
Always the same arrogant BS from self-centric "advice" givers. I haven't seen a single well thought out alternative strategy yet. Thing is all arguments come down to Nintendo should do this or that for me and I miiiiight consider getting their hardware - but most probably not. No consideration of risks involved, necessary funding, proper planning, corporate identity, human resources, market grooming - all things important for the perspective of the manufacturer.
In this particular case, the word "true" gives it all away. However, following this stupid advice would:
- piss off all existing Wii U owners
- mark Nintendo as a company that has no clue and is only testing what might work
- mark Nintendo as a company that doesn't care for their customers
- cost an immensive amount of money
- make it extremely difficult to get a proper OS and launch software in a timely fashion
- bring an extreme high risk of failing being in the middle of generations
All of this has probably already been said but I just had to vent my annoyance. There has been a proper thread about possible strategies but of course it's been the one with the least activity.
In this particular case, the word "true" gives it all away. However, following this stupid advice would:
- piss off all existing Wii U owners
- mark Nintendo as a company that has no clue and is only testing what might work
- mark Nintendo as a company that doesn't care for their customers
- cost an immensive amount of money
- make it extremely difficult to get a proper OS and launch software in a timely fashion
- bring an extreme high risk of failing being in the middle of generations
All of this has probably already been said but I just had to vent my annoyance. There has been a proper thread about possible strategies but of course it's been the one with the least activity.
IrishNinja
Member
holy crap logz you just moved the goalposts to disneyland, iwata could learn from your stubbornness~
agreed, i'd even say Sony wasn't catering to that demographic heavy/regularly 10 years back - kinda ties into what i was trying to tell poor logz about devs recognizing their lane. he seems to think if i gave Atlus an infinite amount of money, a COD-killer would happen.
really i don't mean to split molehairs with you over platformers either; what truly matters is that we both understand logz is a terrible person who wants GTA Mario to happen
agreed, i'd even say Sony wasn't catering to that demographic heavy/regularly 10 years back - kinda ties into what i was trying to tell poor logz about devs recognizing their lane. he seems to think if i gave Atlus an infinite amount of money, a COD-killer would happen.
really i don't mean to split molehairs with you over platformers either; what truly matters is that we both understand logz is a terrible person who wants GTA Mario to happen
AyaisMUsikWhore
Member
Why do people use this as a defense against Nintendo obvious audience marketing. I'm watching a 3DS commercial right now at 7:14 on Cartoon Network and who's holding it? A child. The Wii U commercial that's coming on in a little while to show off the new Wii U bundle? Children. And what are those children doing? Asking their parents to buy them showing that the parents are to buy for the kids. It doesn't show grown adults playing the system and they aren't marketing it that way.
The point is, or the FACT is, Nintendo audience is children for children by children. Their games focus on gameplay, design, etc to cater to the brains of children also, imo, as a guider... In some ways a catapult to teach problem solving skills and the next.
How ever At some point, everyone grows up. Let's be serious, if you played with barbies as a child, chances are your not when you've turned 16 but you now focus more on being one. Your not born wanting to watch the gritty dark suspenseful TV shows at a young age... You grow up doing that or being more interested in that.
Nintendo is for everyone generally but there is no denying that it is 100% possible to mature from them. It is possible to want something more mature in which the Xbox and PlayStation is geared towards. Why is this so hard to grasp?
Their games are for universal enjoyment, young and old alike. For a teen, I get why Nintendo aren't seen as cool, but it's a phase that will pass.
curlyfriski
Banned
If Nintendo wants to make games that appeal to a wider audience, they should make casual games. They'd be cheaper too. Also, Nintendo is waaaaay smaller than Disney. Money in the bank disappears pretty quickly when you're finding long term investments like new studios.
TIMtationX
Member
The WiiU is not dead....It has Wonderful 101...The greatest game ever created...lol.
A Japanese company that is putting a huge portion of its focus on the handheld market which is much bigger in Japan. When will western writers start to understand this?
Jesus.
Hang on let me think of something witty to say about how Nintendo sucks.. that way I will get retweets and a bunch of nerds on message boards to talk about my article. Yay, I'm such a good journalist!
Jesus.
Hang on let me think of something witty to say about how Nintendo sucks.. that way I will get retweets and a bunch of nerds on message boards to talk about my article. Yay, I'm such a good journalist!
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
I know there are a ton of nay sayers here, but I would be first in line to get a Nintendo console with the power of a PS4 or even Xbox One.
WiiU is the first Nintendo console ever I didn't buy. Including the Virtual Boy. In large part because it is gimped power wise, for both Nintendo games, and more so 3rd party games that are now being released on exponentially more powerful hardware.
WiiU is the first Nintendo console ever I didn't buy. Including the Virtual Boy. In large part because it is gimped power wise, for both Nintendo games, and more so 3rd party games that are now being released on exponentially more powerful hardware.
IncandescentPrecept
Banned
It's more than just how powerful the WiiU is. Nintendo doesn't have the IPs, brand or support to compete against MS or Sony.
cj_iwakura
Member
Yeah, and no one bought it.
I think the system has potential, I liked what I played of it. But numbers don't lie, people aren't buying the software, even the good ones.
Nintendo's doing something wrong, and whatever it is, they need to fix it, or this is going to become another PSP debacle. (Well, more the western version than eastern.)
Pancakes R Us
Member
I don't agree with the article at all, but I don't think Nintendo needs to follow anyone's advice to do this, it pretty much does this already. For a recent example, see Reggie's comments about Operation Rainfall. Basically, the fans don't mean squat, despite these people keeping Wii U on the life support that it is right now.
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