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Sony is officially helping with funding and development with Shenmue 3

Salsa

Member
That is fair. Out of curiousity, what are you concerned about though?

the nature of the reveal, the backing out from saying they're involved and explicitely denying it to actually say they were all along once its succesful and there's no risk, even tho it was obviously clear

the precedent it sets for future similar stuff and what it means for spotlight kickstarter projects

etc

been saying as much. I think kickstarter is a great platform for Shenmue 3. I just don't like how it went down
 

dolabla

Member
Can Sony get Capcom on stage next year so we can kickstart a Resident Evil 2 remake? I wonder how much they could raise................................
 

Erevador

Member
The people in this thread make me so depressed about the gaming community in 2015.

What is happening here is basically a gaming miracle.

The attempt among certain "concerned" individuals to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory... just astounding.

Right?
Something like this that seemed impossible years ago is finally happening and people complain.
The exhaustive criticism is becoming just that. The older I get the less I care for these types of outrages.
These keyboard warriors just work themselves into this insane E3 frenzy, and then feel this delusional sense of authority and need to "police the industry."

The worst case scenario in the SCANDALS that they are worked up about is usually... people spend money on something they want. Corporation receives that money by giving people that thing. How diabolical!

Some people here really need to get a little perspective.
 

bon

Member
Kickstarter is generally used to fund projects that can't get funding through traditional means.

Sony is a Giant Mega Dollars Corporation. If they wanted Shenmue 3, they have the money to fund it. This is a billion dollar company asking for crowd-funding handouts.

This is also the second time they've done this.

I think it's reasonable to use Kickstarter as a means of gauging interest when it comes to a rather risky game like Shenmue. How else was Sony supposed to know if there was an actual market for Shenmue 3 in 2015 before dropping millions to make it.
 

chadskin

Member
someone care to summarize the problematic aspects of this? so far I'm seeing a lot of opaque "it doesn't feel right" stuff

So far, some fail to grasp what the difference between Kickstarter and an online poll is and others fail to grasp what the difference between Kickstarter and a donation is.

It's hilarious.
 

Jotaka

Member
So kickstarters are now going to replace petitions now?

Remember SEGA's Yakuza localization requests?... Simple words for localization that didn't translate to actual sales in the west.

And let's face it... Even after the game is complete there is no guarantee that it will be profitable :p
 

Tenzan

Banned
I believe Sega still owns the franchise, they're just letting Suzuki have 3? I don't know, hopefully somebody more knowledgeable can explain it.

On their KS page in the FAQ section when you scroll down. "SEGA has officially given us the rights to use the "Shenmue" license.". Suzuki's company has the rights of the franchise.
 

Ty4on

Member
Been hearing this mantra of "Kickstarter should only be for struggling game projects" since the very beginning but it errs on naïve idealism. Gauging interest with crowdfunding has been a thing since the very beginning, not just Kickstarter but other outlets like for films.

Why aren't they upfront about it? Why not a simple "if we reach our goal Sony will help chip in"?
The average fan doesn't know how much game development costs.
 

fantomena

Member
This is my line of thinking.



I'm a Shenmue fan that feels both ways. I have both Shenmue and Shenmue II on my PAL Dreamcast, I am not "some other person" in this regard.

I think I've expressed my thoughts on the Kickstarter matter enough. I am happy the game exists; I am displeased with the way it was executed.

I understand.

But what if this was the only way though?
 

Pikma

Banned
So you disagree with kickstarter fundamentally?

Because getting funding directly from buyers A.K.A 'development discounts' is the basis of the entire system.
Nope, it's ok to fully crowdfund a game, what it's not ok is crowdfund a game that already has a publisher with enough money to fund it themselves, that's when it crosses the line.
 

nasax

Member
Jesus Christ, people will bitch and complain about anything. You're getting the game less than retail after waiting almost 15 years for it. There's nothing shady about this, you voted with your wallet which carries more weight than stupid internet polls or general interest. As much as we like to see Sony "making dreams come true" in this situation, it's a business at the end of the day. You wanted it and you got the game for less than $30 instead of retail.
 

jstripes

Banned
The exhaustive criticism is becoming just that. The older I get the less I care for these types of outrages.

That's why I only come over to the gaming side during E3 or other big announcements.

Gamers are the biggest complainers on the planet. It's been like that as long as I can remember, but it's only gotten worse in the last 10 years.
 

joecanada

Member
So donating 2 million is to gauge interest? Why not a survey, poll or market research like, you know, usually happens.

I'm not a fan of this approach, I think it's sly.

one costs a ton of money, one gets money into the project............

sigh............... next business 101 question?
 

platocplx

Member
As a backer, I wish people would stop telling me that I'm being exploited or how I should spend my money



Talk is cheap, the real litmus test is getting people to open their wallets. You don't have to like it but that's business
Exactly!! None of these.people are backers.
 
In these times where nobody is taking risks and most games are just the same old shit I think we should be happy that this game is being made.
 

Markitron

Is currently staging a hunger strike outside Gearbox HQ while trying to hate them to death
Were getting Shenmue 3, The Last Guardian and the FF7 remake, and people are finding a way to bitch about it. I even saw some guy earlier say that EA's conference was far better than Sony's.

Neogaf.GIF
 

dci260

Member
Sony's deal is probably something along the lines of "However much you raise on Kickstarter, we'll double or triple it and that's your development budget."

Exactly, based on however much the KickStarter makes the game will likely receive further funding from Sony. Let's be honest, this was the only way Shenmue III was ever going to be made, since Shenmue is known as a financial failure. However much fans choose to further donate to this KickStarter will undoubtedly influence the rest of its development, and the size and scope of the finished product.
 

FranXico

Member
This practice just rubs me the wrong way entirely - I think it's the first time a Kickstarter has been created with the developers KNOWING they have direct financial support from a multinational corporation?

Adam Boyes: "We have nothing to do with this!!!"

Shady.

Such a shame too, I love Shenmue and Yu Suzuki.

Except he didn't say that. He said that "the game is not ours, it is their own thing."

Which is implying they do not own the IP. Obviously.
 
So donating 2 million is to gauge interest? Why not a survey, poll or market research like, you know, usually happens.

I'm not a fan of this approach, I think it's sly.

No it isn't. Nobody's being had here, people throwing money at the KS page aren't being duped because they know what they're getting into.

And KS almost never covers the full cost of the project, even small indie projects. The producers always have incidental expenses that push the total budget far beyond the original KS. Almost every gaming KS from reputable developers have the devs/individuals throwing in a lot of their own personal money to get them made.

People in here gotta quit acting like this is something new. Gaming KSs have always under-valued the cost of their own projects to gauge consumer interest.
 

fantomena

Member
the nature of the reveal, the backing out from saying they're involved and explicitely denying it to actually say they were all along once its succesful and there's no risk, even tho it was obviously clear

the precedent it sets for future similar stuff and what it means for spotlight kickstarter projects

etc

been saying as much. I think kickstarter is a great platform for Shenmue 3. I just don't like how it went down

Ah okay.

But it's true though, it's not their project, it's Ys Nets project, it's not a Sony WWS project.
 

pastrami

Member
Kickstarter is generally used to fund projects that can't get funding through traditional means.

Sony is a Giant Mega Dollars Corporation. If they wanted Shenmue 3, they have the money to fund it. This is a billion dollar company asking for crowd-funding handouts.

This is also the second time they've done this.

If they published Shenmue 3, Shenmue 3 would be Sony's.

God damn, why can't people understand that this is Ys Net's project? That this is Ys Net's kickstarter. That you are giving money to Ys Net.

Just because Sony is going to provide support (likely monetary), does not mean Ys Net doesn't need your money.
 

4Tran

Member
It sounds like this kickstarters upsets everyone but the actual backers of the prject, which isn't usually how these kickstarter stories go...
The people complaining about the process are the people who seem to be unfamiliar with how Kickstarter works. While this is not unexpected, it also undercuts their arguments.

Thanks for this. Sounds to me like it's not Sony published. It's more like a Grim Fandango Remaster type arrangement.
The difference is that Grim Fandango was an inexpensive project to fund. Sony is going to have to pony up at least $10M of their own money on Shenmue, so they're going to put stricter conditions on it.

What's shitty about it isn't so much the seeming duplicitous nature of it, but rather how Sony benefits from it.

If there was no Kickstarter and Sony funded it 100%, each consumer is only going to spend whatever the retail cost of the game, say $60.

But how the pricing is tiered, there's already been 9,385 backers that paid more than retail for the game.

People were under the assumption that backing the game would go directly into the pockets of the developers who needed the funding, but were not also getting funding elsewhere. "Yu Suzuki needs money to make a masterpiece, here's $10k or $300!"

Let Sony foot the fucking bill, they are flush with cash. They could give Suzuki $50 million dollars and if it flops, no big deal.
You don't seem to get it. Backers are going for higher tiers because they want to. Some will do so because they want the swag, and others will do so because they really believe in the project and they are willing to contribute to see it happen. It's like how Notch will put in $10,000 pledges into all sorts of projects. Moreover, until the campaign ends, any backer can change their pledge or cancel it altogether. Nobody is being cheated - even the part about Shenmue 3 not seeing the light of day if the campaign fails is true. The only thing that wasn't already public was that Sony was going to contribute the balance of the funding, and even that was obvious to anyone familiar with Kickstarter.
 

Ralemont

not me
Exactly my point.

Sony has exploited the kickstarter model in order for gamers to pay well in excess for a retail copy of the game under the guise "it needs funded", when they shouldn't have to do this at all.

This doesn't hold up. I've paid $29 for my copy, and anyone who paid more can go change their pledge if they feel cheated.
 

JP

Member
Kickstarter is for games to be crowd funded that wouldn't have happened otherwise.

Shenmue III is a game that hasn't "happened" for like 15 years. Sony got on board only because KS made it possible for fans to subsidize the game. Otherwise they, like every other publisher on the industry for the past 15 years, would've passed on the project.

This is a problem how? The game wasn't going to happen otherwise, as Sony wasn't going to be footing the whole bill. I think people are just being childishly salty about this just because it happened under the Sony banner at E3.
Seems Kickstarter don't agree with you about that first point.

A lot of the things that people are saying that Kickstarter is are talking about things that they want it to be rather than what it actually is. Kickstarter is what Kickstarter is, if people don't like what it is then those people are probably better off staying away from it because they're going to be seeing a lot of things that are right for Kickstarter but not right for them.

By all means criticise what Kickstarter is if you don't like it but that isn't what's happening here.
 
No Xbox confirmed?


24scream.jpg

NOOOOOOO!!!!
 

Pejo

Member
I'm a backer, and I am upset that there was no transparency involved.

Like I said earlier and someone else mentioned, when Nintendo saved Bayonetta, did they come up with a faux kickstarter to gauge interest? No, they just made it for the fans. No shady business. We have a clear precedent here with a company handling this kind of situation the right way, and we have today with a company handling it the wrong way.

People should have known from the beginning that they were just gauging interest.

Didn't Bayonetta bomb though? It seems like they should have done a better job of gauging interest before bringing it back*. Sony has no obligation to blindly throw millions of dollars at something and hope it sells. That's how we end up with so many "safe" games that don't do anything that deviate from only the most popular demographics. Plus, I like kickstarter so much more than pre-ordering. You get to be a part of the project, you get a copy of the game at, usually, a discount or with extras, you get to shape the development, and you literally get to vote with your wallet.

*I love Bayonetta and enjoyed the game, i'm just talking from a $$ standpoint.
 

GWX

Member
This wouldn't have happened otherwise. I'm not going to find a random post you made elsewhere but the one I quoted sounded incredibly petulant. Sony wasn't willing to fund it and neither was anyone else through other means. Instead, Sony now funds it and gamers that play on PC and PS4 get to play it, exactly as stated on the Kickstarter page.

Not everyone is willing to put money if there is gauge of interest note on the kickstarter, but maybe that might have made you happy if it was written at the top of the page, people then didn't put their money where their mouths is and the game doesn't get made.

Well, I just like things being as transparent as possible. We are talking about crowd-funding here, not pre-ordering: I believe Ys Net should have disclosed the fact that Sony was involved from the start on the KS page, and I'm with Salsa at thinking that the fact that Boyes said (paraphrasing) "we didn't make this happen" is quite shady. It's misleading, to say the least.
 

RE_Player

Member
Why aren't they upfront about it? Why not a simple "if we reach our goal Sony will help chip in"?
The average fan doesn't know how much game development costs.
I would like to think an average game fan that knows what Shenmue is understands this game can't be made solely on $2 million. If not than I don't know what to tell those people.
 

hohoXD123

Member
A Kickstarter is never an investment. You are not investing money and gaining a stake in the outcome. You are donating.

Not really, you're paying money with the expectation of getting a physical product out of it at the end of the day, rather than just out of the goodness of your heart. But on the other hand you're not simply buying something either, you're putting faith in the person to deliver a usually vague product. Let's just say you're kickstarting.
 
Why aren't they upfront about it? Why not a simple "if we reach our goal Sony will help chip in"?
The average fan doesn't know how much game development costs.

I don't think the people backing are considered average.

And if they still feel had now that we know Sony is helping, they can cancel their pledge.
 

wildfire

Banned
Yup.
These "concerned" moralist can take their consumer right and ethical business/transparency and go home. Sometime corporation can act in good faith and care enough to present an option to fans instead of just saying fuck you, $$$ bitches.
We knew when we pledged $100+ for the game that it might be crappy since it was only asking for 2M.
We didn't care, we still threw our money into the wind because we'd waited for over a decade to throw money for the sequel but never got a chance to do so until now.

You said it yourself. The keyword is sometimes. Sometimes a dev project can fail. If it does fail with crowdfunding they aren't obligated to give you your money back and in America the FTC at best will only interfere if no signs of development occurred.



I continue to back games even though I understand the risks. It still is prudent to advocate for law changes in how crowdfunding works to reduce our risk.




Donating?

Your paying for the game. It's practically a pre-order.

Never ever call crowdfunding a preorder.

There are 2 big differences.


With a preorder you aren't committing your money until the game is shipped. With crowdfunding the money is theirs once the funding goal is reached.

With a preorder you can call the cops if you get scammed. With crowdfunding the government says such campaigns that try to offer profit sharing options are illegal. That's why they only offer gifts or dreams.

You aren't making a purchase. You are making a donation.

The FTC in the US is reconsidering their stance on this since they went after a campaign where the fundraiser never started work on his project but obviously big companies like Sony can start a project let it die off and never be required to refund you for a failed development project.
 
Get used to more and more people leveraging Kickstarter as a way to gauge interest in order to secure more funding from investors. Particularly with "risky" projects. I can understand not liking it and wanting more transparency, but from a business standpoint this approach makes sense. People parting with their money carries much more weight than signing a petition.

Several already-released games that started out on Kickstarter got additional funding from sources other than KS. So this is nothing new, and it's been proven to be effective. Shenmue 3 is just the highest-profile instance of this.
 
Congrats guys, really. I've never played Shenmue but am well aware the cult following behind it that rivals Earthbound. I just can't stop being amazed that Sony must be using it's money from the PS4's overwhelming success to bankroll yet another game.

I thought Street Fighter V (Yes, I know it's coming to PC) was a huge get, and Call of Duty shifting exclusivity was pretty unexpected. Yet Shenmue was something way out in left field.

This E3 is really making me feel the guilt in not choosing a PS4 over the One, mainly because I don't want to pay for two online services and only needed one newgen console to keep playing with my limited free time. Two months ago I purchased a year of Gold too so I would feel like a jackass if I were to part ways with the One.

Sony keeps doing miracles... perhaps they might be able to work another miracle... on a certain blue hedgehog...


Nah, nope forget I said that.
 
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