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llAuburnll · Sep 2, 2015

partyphone said:
I'm not saying they are all Hilters and organized harassment is exaclty the same as genocide. jesus christ.

there are people in gamergate who are self described nazis. that's it. they're white supremecists. I am not comparing them to anything. they put swastikas on everything and complain about white genocide when they're not harassing people who criticize games for not being diverse.

The comparisons were made earlier in the thread as GG'ers literally being like the Nazis, the kkk, etc. We can backtrack now and qualify what was said, but going to the extreme shuts down discussion. Which if that's not what is the intention here, then close the thread.

I mean check this other guy. Dead set on the extremes. "Worst people in the world" literally. They are literally Nazis. The same bad influences of the 1920-1970s is here again. Same thing.
How on earth is that cognizant of the issues or helping discussion at all?

To be clear, they suck. Roosh is a piece of crap. But "GG'ers Nazi! Worst in world omg etc etc etc" belongs in YouTube comments and not a discussion thread. It's not productive and sidetracks from the issues.

partyphone · Sep 2, 2015

llAuburnll said:
The comparisons were made earlier in the thread as GG'ers literally being like the Nazis, the kkk, etc. We can backtrack now and qualify what was said, but going to the extreme shuts down discussion. Which if that's not what is the intention here, then close the thread.

I mean check this other guy. Dead set on the extremes. "Worst people in the world" literally. They are literally Nazis. The same bad influences of the 1920-1970s is here again. Same thing.
How on earth is that cognizant of the issues or helping discussion at all?

shuts down discussion of what?

silvermember · Sep 2, 2015

llAuburnll said:
Are they really though? The worst people in the world? Really?

The post said "SOME" not most. This allows them to fall on the spectrum of bad people.

oni-link · Sep 2, 2015

partyphone said:
he's also an admitted rapist who sells rape manuals and actively tries to rape women all the time.

is he worse than some ISIS warlord? obviously not. but he's way up there on the list of awful people.

Wtf how is he not behind bars?

partyphone · Sep 2, 2015

oni-link said:
Wtf how is he not behind bars?

he uses pickup artist techniques to get women alone and rape laws are bad and favor men in "he said, she said" situations.

ZealousD · Sep 2, 2015

partyphone said:
he uses pickup artist techniques to get women alone and rape laws are bad and favor men in "he said, she said" situations.

Do they favor men, or do they favor the accused?

stupei · Sep 2, 2015

partyphone said:
he uses pickup artist techniques to get women alone and rape laws are bad and favor men in "he said, she said" situations.

Is he the one who wrote in detail about an encounter with a woman that he said (paraphrasing) "if it happened in America, it would have been rape"? Or was that someone else?

Jakten · Sep 2, 2015

partyphone said:
he's also an admitted rapist who sells rape manuals and actively tries to rape women all the time.

Wasn't this the case with Mike Cernovich as well. He pretty much admitted on twitter that he rapes women and he did admit that he physically abuses them. He also wrote about how to murder someone and get away with it and that he respects those who have successfully killed someone and got away with it.

Hello? This is Hailun! · Sep 2, 2015

partyphone said:
is he worse than some ISIS warlord? obviously not. but he's way up there on the list of awful people.

He wants to be able to legalize violent assault.

It's not a huge stretch of the imagination to think of what else he would be capable of given the leniency to do so.

Hello? This is Hailun! · Sep 2, 2015

silvermember said:
The post said "SOME" not most. This allows them to fall on the spectrum of bad people.

Some and, more specifically, the Public Faces.

Regardless of what your Average Joe wants Gamer Gate to represent, the moment Storm Front, MRAs, and Breitbart started calling the shots, it now represents their interests.

partyphone · Sep 2, 2015

ZealousD said:
Do they favor men, or do they favor the accused?

literally as they are written they don't favor anyone , for the most part. I'm sure you can find examples of actual awful rape laws.

I should have said the enitre criminal justice process favors men since I should have known there wee be a shitty pedantic response.

Mael · Sep 2, 2015

llAuburnll said:
I mean check this other guy. Dead set on the extremes. "Worst people in the world" literally. They are literally Nazis.

There are actual neo Nazis supporting this shit.
When asked about it most GGers from twitter or reddit usually support them so....yeah.

PaypayTR · Sep 2, 2015

So does anita sarkesiaan. Its like she just write articles to spotlight herself everytime after incident

partyphone · Sep 2, 2015

PaypayTR said:
So does anita sarkesiaan. Its like she just write articles to spotlight herself everytime after incident

I'm sorry what?

ApharmdX · Sep 2, 2015

Sarkeesian has been meeting social media and technology companies, talking to them about how they can help stop gender-based abuse in gaming. Because, ultimately, this is a problem that needs solutions from the top as well as the bottom. Where was the gaming industry in all this? she asks. GamerGate was a silver platter for them to say they dont condone the harassment of women and they didnt do it. GamerGate is the monster that the industry created.

First of all, the gaming industry stands to lose more than to gain here, as men represent the largest demographic of "core" gamers, and by far the largest demographic of "hardcore" gamers. So the industry has a commercial incentive not to act or to make statements here. Secondly, in video gaming, the creators resemble the consumer, for the most part. A fair portion of devs are sympathetic to GamerGate, I believe. Only a few have come out as such but the silence of the rest says it all.

Anita is probably not going to get traction in this way. She's right, though. I have actually grown to like her stuff. In the beginning I agreed with the usual criticisms- she wasn't a gamer, but rather someone who latched on to video gaming in order to score feminist points; and her work wasn't very insightful. But she's used the last few years to improve her work, and it's obvious that she's very passionate about her cause.

Mael · Sep 2, 2015

PaypayTR said:
So does anita sarkesiaan. Its like she just write articles to spotlight herself everytime after incident

I'm not going to miss you.

ApharmdX said:
First of all, the gaming industry stands to lose more than to gain here, as men represent the largest demographic of "core" gamers, and by far the largest demographic of "hardcore" gamers. So the industry has a commercial incentive not to act or to make statements here. Secondly, in video gaming, the creators resemble the consumer, for the most part. A fair portion of devs are sympathetic to GamerGate, I believe. Only a few have come out as such but the silence of the rest says it all.

I would quote the "Gamers are over" article here, seriously the industry doesn't have to cater to the niche of hardcore misogynists that is the center of the marketing for more than a decade now.
By pushing out the old club they can get the rest that is pushed away by how vile the stereotype looks.
Growth is not going to come from the old club anyway.

ApharmdX said:
Anita is probably not going to get traction in this way. She's right, though. I have actually grown to like her stuff. In the beginning I agreed with the usual criticisms- she wasn't a gamer, but rather someone who latched on to video gaming in order to score feminist points; and her work wasn't very insightful. But she's used the last few years to improve her work, and it's obvious that she's very passionate about her cause.

I didn't care much about her, then this shit happened and it pretty much proves her points right.

Azih · Sep 2, 2015

ApharmdX, you seem to be implying that hardcore gamers=GamersGate which isn't a very reasonable assumption.

Pro from Dover · Sep 2, 2015

Theres a boys-locker-room feel to the internet, where men feel they can show off for one another, she says. A lot of the harassment is tied to this toxic masculine culture of Look how cool I can be. Someone will send a woman a death threat and screencap it, posting it on a forum, which in turn inspires another man to do something even worse in a horrifying game of misogynist oneupmanship.

Now this I find to be true, if only because you can find the same behavior (though not at death threat level uncalledforness) in Metroid Prime: Federation Force or Devil's Third threads. It's not enough to just not like and move on, gotta one-up the nasty and make the best joke to be cool.

PtM · Sep 2, 2015

Mael said:
I would quote the "Gamers are over" article here, seriously the industry doesn't have to cater to the niche of hardcore misogynists that is the center of the marketing for more than a decade now.
By pushing out the old club they can get the rest that is pushed away by how vile the stereotype looks.
Growth is not going to come from the old club anyway.

Then again, an insider posted in here, I think, that the industry is intent on segregating the market so as to better market to it.

Pro from Dover said:
Now this I find to be true, if only because you can find the same behavior (though not at death threat level uncalledforness) in Metroid Prime: Federation Force or Devil's Third threads. It's not enough to just not like and move on, gotta one-up the nasty and make the best joke to be cool.

The R. Mika thread also comes to mind, "dat ass" and whatnot.

Hello? This is Hailun! · Sep 2, 2015

llAuburnll said:
To be clear, they suck. Roosh is a piece of crap.

Then why do you get mad when we say so? When people say things about GG, they're talking about the people, like Roosh, Milo, Shapiro, etc, that have come to represent GG.

And for some reason I am suddenly reminded the strangely perverse, Freudian, weirdly racist obsession that GG has with cuckolding as well.

Mael · Sep 2, 2015

PtM said:
Then again, an insider posted in here, I think, that the industry is intent on segregating the market so as to better market to it.

Well I guess if you don't about the quality of your product or the quality of your audience that can work too.
The thing is that what you get by cheaping out on marketing you lose on the long term.
Heck comics are squarely laser targeted to prettymuch the same demo as games and that's a big reason why they're far from being as successful as they could be.

BlastProcessing · Sep 2, 2015

PaypayTR said:
So does anita sarkesiaan. Its like she just write articles to spotlight herself everytime after incident

Jakten · Sep 2, 2015

ApharmdX said:
First of all, the gaming industry stands to lose more than to gain here, as men represent the largest demographic of "core" gamers, and by far the largest demographic of "hardcore" gamers. So the industry has a commercial incentive not to act or to make statements here. Secondly, in video gaming, the creators resemble the consumer, for the most part.

Well really "hardcore" is mostly a meaningless buzzword. Is it based on the content of the game or knowledge of the culture and industry that makes a gamer hardcore? Is it the amount of time spent playing a game or the amount of games played? Maybe it's how much money you are willing to shell out on paraphernalia and DLC? I create games for a living, my entire life is entrenched in video games despite not being able to play them much anymore, does that make me more hardcore than someone who just consumes all the new "AAA GOTY" in their free time? "Hardcore gamer" is part of this problem. It's a marketing ploy to make people feel superior or important because of their purchases just like console wars and other bullshit. It's a manufactured identity. Gamergate is the embodiment of the worst elements of those manufactured identities.

Women's gaming habits aren't that different from men's and often when they are it's because they are usually shooed out of those areas by misogyny. This includes industry jobs. In this way the creators definitely resemble the consumer. But many refuse to accept that women are just as capable of working in game development. There is tons of commercial incentive for them to change. Why would you not want to increase your audience? Their entire incentive to remain this way is rooted in misogyny. They are content with the idea that they don't know how to create for women so that must mean women don't like games. When a woman shows up and says "I can help your games appeal to women too" they say "Oh sorry, women don't like games." In the 90's that was basically a marketing tag-line.

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy used as an excuse to justify their ignorant belief or short sighted judgement.

I've heard the term feminazi way too many times and I haven't even been working in the industry that long.

ApharmdX · Sep 2, 2015

Mael said:
II would quote the "Gamers are over" article here, seriously the industry doesn't have to cater to the niche of hardcore misogynists that is the center of the marketing for more than a decade now.
By pushing out the old club they can get the rest that is pushed away by how vile the stereotype looks.
Growth is not going to come from the old club anyway.

It's far too soon to say that the boys club of gaming is over. NeoGAF is awesome but it's an echo chamber of progressive thought, tolerance, and inclusion. There are plenty of other communities on the Internet where GamerGate is widely supported.

I do agree that growth isn't going to come from the old club anyway. But it seems like AAA gaming has a long way to go before it has broad appeal among groups outside of the straight, white, male demographic?

Azih said:
ApharmdX, you seem to be implying that hardcore gamers=GamersGate which isn't a very reasonable assumption.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying, like I said above, that if you only come here, appearances can be deceiving. There are a whole lot of bros and maladjusted male misfits still gaming, and they spend a lot of money.

Jakten said:
Well really "hardcore" is mostly a meaningless buzzword. Is it based on the content of the game or knowledge of the culture and industry that makes a gamer hardcore? Is it the amount of time spent playing a game or the amount of games played? Maybe it's how much money you are willing to shell out on paraphernalia and DLC? I create games for a living, my entire life is entrenched in video games despite not being able to play them much anymore, does that make me more hardcore than someone who just consumes all the new "AAA GOTY" in their free time? "Hardcore gamer" is part of this problem. It's a marketing ploy to make people feel superior or important because of their purchases just like console wars and other bullshit. It's a manufactured identity. Gamergate is the embodiment of the worst elements of those manufactured identities.

Women's gaming habits aren't that different from men's and often when they are it's because they are usually shooed out of those areas by misogyny. This includes industry jobs. In this way the creators definitely resemble the consumer. But many refuse to accept that women are just as capable of working in game development. There is tons of commercial incentive for them to change. Why would you not want to increase your audience? Their entire incentive to remain this way is rooted in misogyny. They are content with the idea that they don't know how to create for women so that must mean women don't like games. When a woman shows up and says "I can help your games appeal to women too" they say "Oh sorry, women don't like games." In the 90's that was basically a marketing tag-line.

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy used as an excuse to justify their ignorant belief or short sighted judgement.

I've heard the term feminazi way too many times and I haven't even been working in the industry that long.

Ah, so you actually work in the industry? You make good points. It seems to me like yeah, there's a massive untapped market out there but the video game industry isn't reaching it. I hope that someone starts appealing to a broader audience and makes a boatload of money (outside of mobile where this has already happened). When that happens I think you'll see the tide start to shift.

Mael · Sep 2, 2015

ApharmdX said:
It's far too soon to say that the boys club of gaming is over. NeoGAF is awesome but it's an echo chamber of progressive thought, tolerance, and inclusion. There are plenty of other communities on the Internet where GamerGate is widely supported.

the fun part is that Neogaf not being the cesspool of shitposting that would support crap like GG is pretty much the reason Gaf is the only gaming community I'm willing to suffer.
Seriously even Miiverse is less worthy of my time.

ApharmdX said:
I do agree that growth isn't going to come from the old club anyway. But it seems like AAA gaming has a long way to go before it has broad appeal among groups outside of the straight, white, male demographic?

They don't have a choice.
The budgets are increasing anyway and the public they're fostering is not going to settle for anything but games that requires said budget inflation.
If they want to make their money in a way that doesn't end in a massive opportunity cost (at best) they need to get more than the stereotypical gamers or they need to "make" more of them.
In a way movements like GG is creating more of that braindead consumers.
There's going to be a point where they either broaden their target or it won't make sense making this type of products.
I'm equally ok with both, the upside of the 2nd option will be the unmistakable taste of the hardcore tears.

ApharmdX said:
Ah, so you actually work in the industry? You make good points. It seems to me like yeah, there's a massive untapped market out there but the video game industry isn't reaching it. I hope that someone starts appealing to a broader audience and makes a boatload of money (outside of mobile where this has already happened). When that happens I think you'll see the tide start to shift.

It happened already, it was called the Wii and the DS.
Nintendo and others made boatload of money and then they stopped caring so the market left.

Azih · Sep 2, 2015

I don't think a lot of CoD bros give a damn either way about GG and a lot of GG is being run now by people who don't give a crap about games. There is overlap sure. But I really don't think it's much of one.

Edit:Mael the casual market went to phones because that form much better serves their needs.

Mael · Sep 2, 2015

Azih said:
I don't think a lot of CoD bros give a damn either way about GG and a lot of GG is being run now by people who don't give a crap about games. There is overlap sure. But I really don't think it's much of one.

The people at the forefront of the movement are people who shat on gamers just before GG started, of course they don't give a crap about games.

Azih said:
Edit:Mael the casual market went to phones because that form much better serves their needs.

The casual market may well have gone that way I wouldn't know.
The Expanded audience or non gamers stopped caring about anything but mobile because no one else was serving their needs anyway.
By 2010, Nintendo stopped targeting outside of the core consumer of video games and as the result they stopped selling to anyone but that target demo.
3DS itself by its very design is alien to anything DS (or even Wii) tried to do.
WiiU is pretty much Nintendo repackaging the values they were pushing during the GC era, heck even the pad is something people expected the actual Wii to be.
It was unrealistic to expect anything from Expanded audience if you don't serve them for more than 3 years.

Pro from Dover · Sep 3, 2015

PtM said:
The R. Mika thread also comes to mind, "dat ass" and whatnot.

I understand.
But I want to point out that it's more than just toxic masculine culture as Anita puts it. It's a behavior that anyone can have. Replace what she does/stands for with about anything else and the toxins that are thrown it's way still harassment ("Devil's Turd" i'm looking at you). I'm thinking of that one Filter song Nice Shot "They shove it in your face and make you smell what they consider wrong", but I may be off point...
Yeah, "dat ass" for sure, total boys locker room but I'm sure man, women, anyone who has a taste for dat ass, can go there and there's nothing wrong with that taste especially if thats what the room is for. For others who do not like the locker room, remember, you don't have to stick your head in a sewer to know what's in it.

I just think strictly looking at the masculine boys room culture is mistaking the forest for the trees. Make no mistake that Anita may be right, but make no mistake that that is where it only takes place.

IchigoSharingan · Sep 3, 2015

Par Score said:
Why do you think "gaming interests are correlated with being a geek/nerd"? Do you think this happened naturally? Why only male geeks and nerds?

The current state of game culture was fostered and directed by game companies marketing executives since all the way back in the 1980s. Women were actively driven away from videogames, and computer science in general, by the industry's almost exclusive focus on the young male demographic.

The industry created GamerGate a long time ago, and it's done less than nothing to try and stop it.

UK Universities have massive problems with rape and sexual assault, largely fueld by our laddish drinking culture. We don't have the insane US Fraternity hazing rituals, instead we have "5 Jagerbombs for a fiver" nights and women getting date raped.

You do not have enough data to support your conclusions.

Par Score · Sep 3, 2015

Man, fuck Gamergate.

I guess actually it's about trying to get game developers who don't agree with you fired.

IchigoSharingan said:
You do not have enough data to support your conclusions.

Christ, dug that one out.

And of course I haven't. I don't get paid to perform detailed analysis on the composition of games target audience over time vs the demographics targeted by advertising over that period.

But guess the fuck what: Advertising works, or it wouldn't be a multi-billion dollar industry, and at a point in the 80s advertising for games took a hard swing in the adolescent male direction and has sat there ever since.

Unless you believe that women are inherently, intrinsically less interested in gaming and computer science, how would you explain the current state of the world, other than to suggest they were being actively driven away?

gblues · Sep 3, 2015

GamerGate is to the Game Industry as Donald Trump's supporters are to Fox News.

The games industry spent DECADES targeting boys. Go look at video game ads from the 90s. They've targeted their ads and their games to horny men, in the same way that Fox News has monopolized the news for the politically conservative. Also like Fox News, the games industry has been very careful to pay lip service to the "other side".

Anita is dead-on in that assessment.

Cerato · Sep 3, 2015

"GamerGate is the monster that the industry created."

I don't think this is fair, in that I don't think the industry realistically could have been expected to develop any other way than the way it did. It's not like people were making decisions like "Today, I'm going to steer video games down a SEXIST path."

I'm also not certain that men who play games are more sexist than men who don't, so I think it's tough to assign causality to the tropes Sarkisian points out in her videos, to the actions of gamer gaters.

I think her videos are rad, and she is awesome, and I think she's part of the natural evolution of our industry out of its adolescence.

BlastProcessing · Sep 3, 2015

Cerato said:
"GamerGate is the monster that the industry created."

I don't think this is fair, in that I don't think the industry realistically could have been expected to develop any other way than the way it did. It's not like people were making decisions like "Today, I'm going to steer video games down a SEXIST path."

I'm also not certain that men who play games are more sexist than men who don't, so I think it's tough to assign causality to the tropes Sarkisian points out in her videos, to the actions of gamer gaters.

I think her videos are rad, and she is awesome, and I think she's part of the natural evolution of our industry out of its adolescence.

She didn't say "Gamergate is the monster that the industry intentionally created".

Hackworth · Sep 3, 2015

Par Score said:
Man, fuck Gamergate.

I guess actually it's about trying to get game developers who don't agree with you fired.

They're also accusing random people who've spoken out against them of being pedophiles because apparently 8chan having boards to discuss child porn is a false flag by the sjws or something?

https://twitter.com/SuperSpacedad/status/639167293033971712

EDIT: also srhbutts is apparently trans, so there's some shitty anti-transexual behaviour here too.

uncredited male · Sep 3, 2015

Where do all the suicide accounts come from?

It is like there is a factory selling them somewhere.

Hello? This is Hailun! · Sep 3, 2015

IchigoSharingan said:
You do not have enough data to support your conclusions.

He/She does, actually. There is increasingly more and more evidence showing a gender bias against girls in school when it comes to math and science.

http://www.npr.org/2015/09/01/43652...s-bias-play-into-the-hands-ofgender-disparity

Vinland · Sep 3, 2015

Hello? This is Hailun! said:
He/She does, actually. There is increasingly more and more evidence showing a gender bias against girls in school when it comes to math and science.

http://www.npr.org/2015/09/01/43652...s-bias-play-into-the-hands-ofgender-disparity

Except that India and China utterly limit these research findings to western and westernized cultures. We would have to see data from India and China to see if the same gender bias is limiting the female work force there as well and to what percentage. Western workforce dollars are being spent on female IT employees many of them they aren't citizens. Enterprise software development these days relies heavily on off shore staffing and women are represented far better there than here. Those dollars and demographics will not be represented in most western media, third party research and university findings.

As for the GG thing... fucking sociopaths.

The Technomancer · Sep 3, 2015

Hackworth said:
They're also accusing random people who've spoken out against them of being pedophiles because apparently 8chan having boards to discuss child porn is a false flag by the sjws or something?

https://twitter.com/SuperSpacedad/status/639167293033971712

EDIT: also srhbutts is apparently trans, so there's some shitty anti-transexual behaviour here too.

The original "Dan Olson put that CP there! He's the pedophile!" was one of the most surreal and darkly hilarious things I've seen

PtM · Sep 3, 2015

Pro from Dover said:
I understand.
But I want to point out that it's more than just toxic masculine culture as Anita puts it. It's a behavior that anyone can have. Replace what she does/stands for with about anything else and the toxins that are thrown it's way still harassment ("Devil's Turd" i'm looking at you). I'm thinking of that one Filter song Nice Shot "They shove it in your face and make you smell what they consider wrong", but I may be off point...
Yeah, "dat ass" for sure, total boys locker room but I'm sure man, women, anyone who has a taste for dat ass, can go there and there's nothing wrong with that taste especially if thats what the room is for. For others who do not like the locker room, remember, you don't have to stick your head in a sewer to know what's in it.

I just think strictly looking at the masculine boys room culture is mistaking the forest for the trees. Make no mistake that Anita may be right, but make no mistake that that is where it only takes place.

I actually meant the thread criticizing R. Mika.

Yoshi · Sep 3, 2015

Mael said:
It happened already, it was called the Wii and the DS.
Nintendo and others made boatload of money and then they stopped caring so the market left.

For the first part, I completely agree, however, I don't think they stopped caring. Sony never cared, Nintendo, MS and Ubisoft cared to the bitter end. Nintendo even built their Wii U in parts around offering that audience an interesting follow-up. With NSMBU, Wii Fit U and Nintendo Land as (near-) launch titles it's obvious they did care and wanted to get that audience again. They failed though. Even with the 3DS, they had Kawashima and Nintendogs reappear, but here they it was quite obviously an afterthought. Microsoft bet on the new found audience, too, with the heavy investment in Kinect and media functionality that furthered the success of the 360 in its final years. Ubisoft tried, both, on Wii U and Xbone, to target the new audience with games like Rabbids Land, Just Dance (ongoing) and that Fighter gamer on the Bone.

They did care, but there were two things that prevented this from working out:
1. Misreading the market and approaching the audience with too many "follow-up" type games instead of completely new experiences. The one completely new experience for this market, Nintendo Land, just failed to catch on, maybe because it was a bit too gamey in presentation - though it is a good product.
2. The rise of free or almost free games on Facebook, as well as on phones and tablets swayed a lot of people in that segment away from traditional consoles and made the market for Nintendo's Wii-type experiences and Kinect shrink significantly.

BY2K · Sep 3, 2015

Hello? This is Hailun! said:
Roosh V literally wants to be able to legally rape women.

Yes, he's one of the worst people in the world.

He was chased out of a bar in Montreal a few weeks ago while on a "tour" to promote his views after he got too close to one of the girls there.

He then tweeted about it like it was a joke.

Mael · Sep 3, 2015

Yoshi said:
For the first part, I completely agree, however, I don't think they stopped caring. Sony never cared, Nintendo, MS and Ubisoft cared to the bitter end. Nintendo even built their Wii U in parts around offering that audience an interesting follow-up. With NSMBU, Wii Fit U and Nintendo Land as (near-) launch titles it's obvious they did care and wanted to get that audience again. They failed though. Even with the 3DS, they had Kawashima and Nintendogs reappear, but here they it was quite obviously an afterthought. Microsoft bet on the new found audience, too, with the heavy investment in Kinect and media functionality that furthered the success of the 360 in its final years. Ubisoft tried, both, on Wii U and Xbone, to target the new audience with games like Rabbids Land, Just Dance (ongoing) and that Fighter gamer on the Bone.

Ubisoft is probably the one who served that market the best actually, Just Dance is still selling and there never was any gap.
MSFT never ever cared, they stopped making software pretty early on, once it was time for the xbone they pretty much stopped their plan to cater to the expanded and tried to take people who watch tv instead for god knows what reason.
Nintendo stopped caring circa 2010, they thought that their new audience cared about their legacy IP more than they cared about the product they sold.
That's why we got Nintendo Land to celebrate their IPs after all, if you never touched any Nintendo product and got on board because of the DS or Wii's expanded audience products you're never going to anticipate something like Nintendo Land.
It took more than a year to brind about WiiFit and Sports on WiiU when the market was cold anyway.
The IPs they created on as evergreen mattered to a point, 3DS and WiiU were just to hostile to that market to make any dent.
It's pretty much why outside of licensed products most 3rd parties can't seem to sell to non gamers even there's 1 product trying to.
Also that audience got literally nothing to play between 2010 and 2012 anyway, they weren't going to wait for ever.
NoA did also a good job trying to kill Wii itself by simply refusing to release anything NoE had in the pipeline while putting all its eggs in the Zelda basket.

Yoshi said:
They did care, but there were two things that prevented this from working out:
1. Misreading the market and approaching the audience with too many "follow-up" type games instead of completely new experiences. The one completely new experience for this market, Nintendo Land, just failed to catch on, maybe because it was a bit too gamey in presentation - though it is a good product.
2. The rise of free or almost free games on Facebook, as well as on phones and tablets swayed a lot of people in that segment away from traditional consoles and made the market for Nintendo's Wii-type experiences and Kinect shrink significantly.

Unless you never played Facebook games, Wii games and Kinect games you can't exactly conflate the 3 like that.
Kinect died because there never was anything that interesting to do with it, outside of Dance games I'd argue that there was little that could survive the novelty anyway. the market wasn't going to stay there anyway (as evidenced by MSFT inability to make anything compelling for it on the xbone).
Wii type died because they stopped making them, the market sustained it for nearly 4-5 years, when they stopped making it they stopped selling.
Nintendo trying to distance itself from Wii's strategy with WiiU and its lineup meant that the audience wanting more Wii was never going to be interested in WiiU's initial proposition.
Facebook games offer similar experience to mobile games, that market moved on to mobile entirely. Outside of some DS games there's really nothing in common with mobile/facebook games and the type of software you find on dedicated machines in term of commitment, value proposition and type of experience.
I'd argue that they could survive alongside (like mobile/dedicated machine are doing or pc/console always).
If the former expanded market left the dedicated gaming systems to mobile/facebook, it has more to do with how they weren't being served by dedicated gaming system more than mobile replacing it.

Azih · Sep 3, 2015

Disagreed. The consumer migration to mobile was in full force before 2010.

Traditional game companies were offering simple games on dedicated game machines for 10+ dollars. How could they compete with simple games on a device casual gamers would own anyway for a price of 0 - 2.99?

Farmville, Words With Friends, Angry Birds etc all came out in 2009.

The market abandoned the traditional game companies, not the other way around.

Mael · Sep 3, 2015

Offtopic I'm preparing a new thread.

FlyinJ · Sep 3, 2015

A lot of people aren't using the term "toxic masculinity" correctly in here.

It doesn't mean that a subject or object is made toxic because of it's masculine content.

Toxic masculinity is when someone feels compelled to act in a "manly" way to conform with society's ideals of what masculinity is supposed to mean. Such as beating someone up because they spilled a drink on them, catcalling women because that's what being a man is, etc.

It's the "toxic" aspect of what "masculinity" has become.

Mael · Sep 3, 2015

FlyinJ said:
No one is using the term "toxic masculinity" correctly.

It doesn't mean that a subject or object is made toxic because of it's masculine content.

Toxic masculinity is when someone feels compelled to act in a "manly" way to conform with society's ideals of what masculinity is supposed to mean. Such as beating someone up because they spilled a drink on them, catcalling women because that's what being a man is, etc.

It's the "toxic" aspect of what "masculinity" has become.

I think that the misunderstanding is that some people don't see any difference between your example and pretty much any masculine content.
I guess you would have to explain why beating someone up because they spilled a drink on them or catcalling women is negative.

partyphone · Sep 3, 2015

yeah masculinity is in a fucked up place. feminism is doing more to help men then MRAs ever will. which isn't saying much.

a fun game to play is to get someone describe what makes a man manly and then explain why those descriptions can't apply to women.

Nudull · Sep 3, 2015

Agree with everything she said. The industry and the gaming community put themselves in this hole, and we need to start growing up if we ever want the slightest chance of digging back up.

Hello? This is Hailun! · Sep 3, 2015

BY2K said:
He was chased out of a bar in Montreal a few weeks ago while on a "tour" to promote his views after he got too close to one of the girls there.

He then tweeted about it like it was a joke.

CENSORSHIP!

purpleblastoise · Jul 13, 2017

This article which came out today says that Erik Wolpaw and Chet Faliszek who worked for Valve created a toxic website that laid the framework for GG.

https://m.mic.com/articles/180888/e...te-harassment-abuse-gaming-culture#.XEaRO6828

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