thewhiterabbit
Member
WretchedTruman said:
They did that to a point. The issue was they did not control the costs of the hardware so instead of what they lost it would have been tons more.
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Can PS3 Catch Up to 360?
- Thread starter jamesb23
- Start date
They did that to a point. The issue was they did not control the costs of the hardware so instead of what they lost it would have been tons more.
jeremy1456
Junior Member
sentry65 said:
Momentum. Oh and the uncanny ability of making 'non-games' that become huge phenomenons.
Sony isn't losing because they 'lost final fantasy as one of their main killer app games,' they're losing because they basically overestimated their brand power amongst casual gamers.
Grampa Simpson
Banned
There are so many horrible misconceptions here that I will have to address them one at a time.
At some point in the development it was deemed that a hard drive was necessary, and then later it was decided that the PS3 would be a vehicle for Blu-ray.
Even later down the line Sony realized that MS was going to beat them to market, but Sony wasn't going to be ready for another two years at least. At this point they shelved their plans to use a 2nd (or 3rd or 4th) Cell as extra processing power in lieu of a GPU, and brokered a deal with NVidia. They pushed up their development by a year, but at the cost of having to release the system at $600 a pop.
This may have been within Sony's goals, but I think the development was more complicated than that. Kutaragi is a hardware geek. He likes parallel hardware and really wanted to extend the parallelism that was present in the PS2. Additionally there was a big push to make sure the entire thing was owned by Sony.sentry65 said:
At some point in the development it was deemed that a hard drive was necessary, and then later it was decided that the PS3 would be a vehicle for Blu-ray.
Even later down the line Sony realized that MS was going to beat them to market, but Sony wasn't going to be ready for another two years at least. At this point they shelved their plans to use a 2nd (or 3rd or 4th) Cell as extra processing power in lieu of a GPU, and brokered a deal with NVidia. They pushed up their development by a year, but at the cost of having to release the system at $600 a pop.
They developed a system that cost a lot of money to develop. That money didn't necessarily need to go towards CPU and GPU power. For an example, the Wii had a fairly hefty budget as well, but it was directed at creating a quiet system with low power requirements.sentry65 said:
The CPU that was developed for the 360 had stark similarities to parts of what was developed for the PS3. Those similarities are usually called PowerPC cores. That IBM shared ideas already used by them for Sony issentry65 said:
Ok. I'll agree on that one.sentry65 said:
Actually, it would have probably cost them less per unit. The 360's design problems were mostly with the design details and some of their parts providers delivering faulty parts - not the cost of materials. The bit exception being the inadequate heat sink - by the cost of about $5.sentry65 said:
But the price disparity would still be there up front and center.sentry65 said:
I have to really disagree on this one. Microsoft used expensive tactics and Nintendo used really intelligent tactics.sentry65 said:
Nintendo never really lost money on the Gamecube, and the rumors are rumors - some of them started by me. Whether they hold their own or not is something they'll have to take up with their stockholders.sentry65 said:
Doesn't matter. They're still selling double what their competition is and can't meet demand. When supply meets and beats demand, they make a small adjustment (to price, colors, or packaged software) and beat everyone into a frenzy all over again.sentry65 said:
the traditional casuals in my office (mainly IT types/part-time gamers) are starting to replace their PS2s with 360s. I think when the 360 hits £149.99 for the Pro it'll be a whitewash. They all have Wiis already but the only paraphernalia you see in the office are PS2 games being traded. Wii is the party console. Nobody even mentions the PS3, it's about as popular as Linux or Laserdisc.
This.sprocket said:
Could it surpass the 360? I wouldn't rule it out entirely but that doesn't mean "it's a sure thing just you xtards wait!".
I like to look back at the SNES/Genesis wars. Sega released two years earlier, Nintendo struggled to match them for years, and then became the market leader to the tune of 25 million more units. How did this happen? Sega lost focus, started moving on to other things and dropped the Genesis like a bad habit. The SNES stayed on store shelves at a dirt-cheap price point for years and if you think about it stalled the 32-bit generation from really even taking off until around 1997, at which point some next-gen consoles had already been on shelves for three years.
The scenario in which I see the PS3 outselling the 360 in the end involves that sort of environment. Eventually the next-generation is going to come along and if we have anything to go by it'll be MS that starts it. I see the PS3 making bank once it reaches budget/lastgen status with continued support.
jeremy1456
Junior Member
sentry65 said:
That's because Nintendo is significantly less predictable than Sony.
SimpleDesign
Member
Do you have a time line for the SNES vs Genesis sales?Zophar said:
yellowjacket
Member
No because Sony wont really even try. Its not their main focus. There is nothing to gain by making drastic cuts so you can finish a distant second place.
Private Hoffman
Banned
I think so.
Microsoft has released all of their heaviest titles already, while Sony has released mostly a lot of new IPs and not some of their biggest legacy titles.
Killzone 2, Gran Turismo 5, God of War 3....these titles haven't even shipped yet and the console is still priced at what the 360's launch price was.
Not to mention some key third party titles in Japan that will increase sales in the region (FFXIII).
Once Sony hits $299 pricing, and the above mentioned titles start to release, Sony is going to start outselling the 360 globally over the next few years. Will they catch up in the US? Not likely. Globally? Very, very likely.
Microsoft has released all of their heaviest titles already, while Sony has released mostly a lot of new IPs and not some of their biggest legacy titles.
Killzone 2, Gran Turismo 5, God of War 3....these titles haven't even shipped yet and the console is still priced at what the 360's launch price was.
Not to mention some key third party titles in Japan that will increase sales in the region (FFXIII).
Once Sony hits $299 pricing, and the above mentioned titles start to release, Sony is going to start outselling the 360 globally over the next few years. Will they catch up in the US? Not likely. Globally? Very, very likely.
bmf, thanks for the reply
I agree with pretty much everything you say. I don't think there's a lot you and I disagree on.
What I meant about maybe the 360 costing more if they had to spend more R&D on it to do more testing, was just factoring in people's salaries who do the R&D work and the costs involved with retooling and engineering updated parts etc
what I meant by "cheap tactics" was not cost related but more in their "honor" - by that I mean, they used classic "microsoft business tactics" which kind of the pirate's version of how business should be done -let others spend money and develop something, then buy or copy a cheap version of it
I agree with pretty much everything you say. I don't think there's a lot you and I disagree on.
What I meant about maybe the 360 costing more if they had to spend more R&D on it to do more testing, was just factoring in people's salaries who do the R&D work and the costs involved with retooling and engineering updated parts etc
what I meant by "cheap tactics" was not cost related but more in their "honor" - by that I mean, they used classic "microsoft business tactics" which kind of the pirate's version of how business should be done -let others spend money and develop something, then buy or copy a cheap version of it
WretchedTruman said:
They did, and they paid the 6 billion for it.
But it all comes down to the fact that the PS3 costs more money to manufacture than the 360. Forget about how much more money MS has. They will always bleed less/earn more money on hardwares for this generation than Sony.
thewhiterabbit
Member
aegies said:
And this is why neither of us are ceo's of a multi-billion dollar company. The existence of the xbox shows ms is concerned enough to be battling sony now rather than later.
jeremy1456
Junior Member
Private Hoffman said:
I think everyone can stop reading at the line I've bolded. That statement is completely false until we actually know what MS is currently making.
thewhiterabbit
Member
Private Hoffman said:
Wasn't this why 2008 was the year of the ps3?
Next Mgs4 rfom and rfom2 say hi.
Lbp and home also all have come out and not changed the fact the 360 is outselling the ps3. And did you juust play the FFXIII Japan card :lol
pseudocaesar
Member
They could easily take the Japanese and PAL markets, but whether or not they can sell enough in those territories to outpace the 360 US gap is a different story.
BLaZiN PRopHeT
Member
WretchedTruman said:
How are they bleeding money when the division is profitable? also one of the MS executives in an interview said that the division would be profitable from now on.
I think that GT is the only real system-seller they have left, but even that will have been diluted by the Prologue bundle deals. I think the majority of people who might be interested in killzone2 and god of war fans probably bought in already. Certainly killzone wasn't a system seller, and is currently just forum hype only anyway.
WretchedTruman
Member
You're taking the statement out of context. Read my previous posts.BLaZiN PRopHeT said:
Gran Turismo is the single largest property in Sony's portfolio. Even bigger than Halo, which is the biggest IP MS has control over.jeremy1456 said:
What he's getting at is that Halo is already here. Anything it could have possibly done to get people to buy 360s is over and done with. A feasible Halo 4 would sell to the existing fanbase and nothing more- the Halo fans are already there.
Unless MS has some magical God-IP in the pot there will be no more titles on the platform that will convince people without a next-gen system to hit the stores en masse. On the other hand, Sony still hasn't played it's best cards, though how effective they turn out to be remains to be seen.
Come on people lets move away from the cheerleading BS. Lets evolve the fanboy syndrome to a new level.
all this stuff has been said before for all three companies. its the same shit every year. each gen is a clean slate. as long as the platforms push software sells then they will be alright.
all this stuff has been said before for all three companies. its the same shit every year. each gen is a clean slate. as long as the platforms push software sells then they will be alright.
Private Hoffman
Banned
Guy Legend said:
I agree with this a whole lot.
Sony desperately needs to get PS2 backwards compatibility in every single system. The PS2/PS1 legacy is gigantic, and when people find that it's not there with the PS3, they think it's lost a significant amount of its "value".
I don't know how much it would cost to make PS2 backwards compatibility a reality, but I can't imagine it costing more than a title like Heavenly Sword to get decent coverage of the PS2's lineup in software emulation form. It is easily worth that cost, especially when Sony can start introducing PS2 titles to download on the PSN store.
If they aren't planning software emulation, they are simply incredibly foolish. $299 PS3 with PS2 backwards compatibility and a software lineup of KZ2, GT5, and God of War 3 would fly off the shelves.
dreamer3kx
Member
RSTEIN said:
im curious to what the hell is coming out anyway on MS's system this year, anywhere i can check?
Grampa Simpson
Banned
And you're not going to share?Jonsoncao said:I have a bunch of bookmarks of last year's threads saying the same thing as here
BLaZiN PRopHeT
Member
WretchedTruman said:
Even with the price cuts they wouldn't be bleeding money. Every price cut has come with some major hardware revision. If they cut the price this year it wont be because of sony it'll be because they got the Valhalla chips out in 09. The Valhalla chips are said to combine the GPU and CPU on 1 65NM chip. This i believe will be the biggest hardware revision that they have made and will save them the more than any other revision.
BLaZiN PRopHeT
Member
Zophar said:
I dont believe anyone 1 title is a SS anymore. it's all about price and your whole catalog of titles these days.
BenjaminBirdie said:
this is the where this scenaro is different... I wanted to start a thread on this....but I'll just post it here....or maybe start one later...
anyway..... if it is indeed true that 360 has took some of the PS2 user base.... what I expect is....is that
there will be more 360 owners who end up buying a PS3 eventually compared to PS3 owners who end up getting a 360....
I believe this because of 1st party exclusives or just exclusives...... if current 360 owners/previous PS2 owners out there see GOW on the PS3...GT5 on the PS3..... A true Socom/MAG on the PS3.... and the price is affordable... they will buy a PS3
on top of that you have Xbox user bases who love shooters....and Sony seems to have put alot of investment in Shooters this gen....so that also can attract these gamers from Xbox's base..............again, if the price is affordable
now, I only speak for myself...but 360 is dirt cheap at $199 (and MS has done an outstanding job of reaching this price)....but I am still not motivated into buying one because the exclusives games don't attract me.....
the only games that did attract me at one point were games like the Star Trek game, Ace Combat 6, and Mass Effect at one point..... but after seeing video reviews and gameplay videos....it didn't push me to pull the trigger......and now that I have a, don't laugh, a gaming laptop with HDMI out....with this I just unplug my HDMI cable from my PS3 and plug to my Laptop and play my PC games on the HDTV effortlessly.... I don't see myself getting a 360 anytime soon...
I also read about how more and more 360 owners who bought a PS3 just for Sony's Baseball game.....I'm sure for other reasons as well (BluRay)...but they state this as the primary reason
so because of its exclusives and eventual lower price... I see more gamers that are part of that 27 mil, buying a PS3...more so that more gamers that are part of that 19mil buying a 360.... and if this is indeed the case... the PS3 can catch up to the 360 as well as pass it..... with current 360 owners who were previous PS2 owners buying a lower priced PS3 when games like GOW, GT5, MAG/Socom, ICO game, and other Sony classics are available...... as well as last gen XBOX owners who are curious about all these *true* exclusive Shooters available on the PS3...................imo
edit- Damnit Hoffman... I should have just got straight to the point :lol
dreamer3kx said:
Well, you can find out all you want for any title from here to March. Other than that, no other first party game or big console exclusive has been confirmed by MS. We have leaks (Forza 3) and guesses (maybe PDZ2, other Rare projects), but we have no official confirmation or any knowledge of what will probably be their biggest selling titles for this year. I understand why they do it but I really don't like it. :lol
Narpas Sword0
Member
sentry65 said:wait you mean the PS3 was a high quality item and came with a price tag that reflected that?
when did the killzone cgi movie blow up in their face? the game actually looks better than the cgi movie. Their benchmark was achieved and then some IMO
:lol :lol
i should know better than to read past the OP on this site
******** says 4 million, which is grossly inflated by all the bundles it was in last year. I'd say about half of that was actual retail purchases, which while is still pretty great, the fact that as many people bought the GT5Prologue is testament to the strength of the series.herod said:
I thought Forza 2 was a better game than GT4 though, for what it's worth.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=348317dreamer3kx said:
It seems that you are using a different definition of "competitive pricing" than everyone else in the world. Which is, yes, odd.Opiate said:
What "competitive pricing" actually means, (here on Earth, I mean) is that a good is priced within ~10% of a competitor's "equivalent" good. If the goods aren't equivalent in the mind of the consumer, then it's highly unlikely that the "better" good will be priced competitively with the less desirable one. That would be silly. Why would BMW price its car competitively with a Pontiac? They wouldn't. Their product command's a premium. (This is what Sony hoped would happen with the PS3.)
What Pachter is saying is that consumers (on average) do see the 360 and PS3 as roughly equivalent in value. They are similar goods. And thus, to be competitive, the PS3 needs to be priced similarly to the 360.
2 Minutes Turkish
Banned
I think what amuses me the most about this thread, aside from the OP, is the responses by the SDF.
I like the way you guys assume John Q Public thinks the way you do, and has the knowledge of the industry you do.
Most people don't find out they have to pay for Live until AFTER they've bought the 360. Just so you guys know.
Most people DON'T know the perceived value of the PS3. WE do, but most don't. They see the 360, they see the PS3. They see basically the same games on the shelf for both, but THEN they see a $100-$200 difference. They then proceed to buy the 360 (Unless they were after a Wii of course).
I'd wager most people buying PS3s at this point are GAFfers who can finally afford it, Blu-ray enthusiasts who want to play games, and a small scattering of PS2 owners wanting to upgrade.
I like the way you guys assume John Q Public thinks the way you do, and has the knowledge of the industry you do.
Most people don't find out they have to pay for Live until AFTER they've bought the 360. Just so you guys know.
Most people DON'T know the perceived value of the PS3. WE do, but most don't. They see the 360, they see the PS3. They see basically the same games on the shelf for both, but THEN they see a $100-$200 difference. They then proceed to buy the 360 (Unless they were after a Wii of course).
I'd wager most people buying PS3s at this point are GAFfers who can finally afford it, Blu-ray enthusiasts who want to play games, and a small scattering of PS2 owners wanting to upgrade.
Private Hoffman
Banned
Zophar said:
Agreed, and this is mainly what I was aiming at.
Microsoft has released Halo 3, Forza 2, and Fable 2 -- sequels to many of their popular Xbox 1 franchises.
Sony has introduced mostly new IPs in the form of Uncharted, Resistance, and LittleBigPlanet....but they have yet to release their biggest PS2 exclusives -- GT5 being the key exclusive in their stable, but also God of War 3 and Killzone 2 (even if the first didn't get favorable attention, the second one is).
herod said:
People underestimate how important the GT series is for Sony. It's a very, very big deal in Europe (GT's largest market), and it is a huge title in Japan as well.
It could be argued that Forza has stolen some of its thunder in the US in recent years, but it is still a decent property in this territory (even if GT4 wasn't as big as GT3 was). Bottom line is that GT5 has potential to sell large numbers in many different territories. It is an important title, and I think it's crucial that Sony releases it next fall.
Just look at these sales for GT4:
Compare them with GT3:
Some dropoff in US/Japan, but Europe has stayed steady. Sequels can also tend to get drop off sometimes (just look at MGS3, for instance) and then receive a boost once the 'next generation' version hits (see MGS4 doing better than MGS3, in the US at least). Some gamers are simply content with what they have in the original title and don't feel the need to get the sequel unless it's on a different platform.
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