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SPOILERS Pokemon Sun/Moon Begins to leak on 4Chan

Gamefreak is so bad at game design and technically inept, too. At this point I wouldn't even be surprised if an eventual switch Pokemon version suffers from major lag issues while delivering underwhelming visuals.

Where this franchise could be if handled by a competent developer I dare not even dream of.

I mean how come Pokemon Reborn (an RPG maker based PC fangame) is so damn vastly superior is just about every regard? The only thing worse in that is the lack of many attack animations. Anyone interested in the franchise that hasn't given this game a try yet, I highly recommend doing so. (here's a link)
 
Gamefreak is so bad at game design and technically inept, too. At this point I wouldn't even be surprised if an eventual switch Pokemon version suffers from major lag issues while delivering underwhelming visuals.

Where this franchise could be if handled by a competent developer I dare not even dream of.

I mean how come Pokemon Reborn (an RPG maker based PC fangame) is so damn vastly superior is just about every regard? The only thing worse in that is the lack of many attack animations. Anyone interested in the franchise that hasn't given this game a try yet, I highly recommend doing so. (here's a link)

because gamefreak is trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator

and you can't say it doesn;t work for them
 

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Ya'll are acting like the sky is falling when you can just use the Bank to transfer out to ORAS for leveling/EV training for most every 'mon that will be viable competitively.

It will be slower at first, but Pokepelago sounds like a step FORWARD to me.

nah, it's not a step forward when Horde Training still is more viable and faster.

Gamefreak is so bad at game design and technically inept, too. At this point I wouldn't even be surprised if an eventual switch Pokemon version suffers from major lag issues while delivering underwhelming visuals.

Where this franchise could be if handled by a competent developer I dare not even dream of.

I mean how come Pokemon Reborn (an RPG maker based PC fangame) is so damn vastly superior is just about every regard? The only thing worse in that is the lack of many attack animations. Anyone interested in the franchise that hasn't given this game a try yet, I highly recommend doing so. (here's a link)

you were going so well but then you had to show a game that swerves and goes for the extreme other side complete with really cringy dialog and art
 
nah, it's not a step forward when Horde Training still is more viable and faster.



you were going so well but then you had to show a game that swerves and goes for the extreme other side complete with really cringy dialog and art

Seriously, the edgelord character designs was a little too much. :p
 

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Seriously, the edgelord character designs was a little too much. :p

Also it has the baggage and garbage that screams fan-game, like they can't resist putting custom shinies.

While I stand by the complaints on GF's questionable stuff, at the same time I don't want the same shit fans like to spew out when they're given the stick (like that Pokemon MMO).
 
I mean if the writing were bad I might agree with you but it is so vastly superior to any Pokemon title by gamefreak and has actual an actual story and characters to get interested in that, eh, who gives a fuck about 'edgelord' designs.

Also it has the baggage and garbage that screams fan-game, like they can't resist putting custom shinies.

While I stand by the complaints on GF's questionable stuff, at the same time I don't want the same shit fans like to spew out when they're given the stick (like that Pokemon MMO).

Ah yes, custom shinies, truly the worst.
 

Weebos

Banned
Gamefreak is so bad at game design and technically inept, too. At this point I wouldn't even be surprised if an eventual switch Pokemon version suffers from major lag issues while delivering underwhelming visuals.

Where this franchise could be if handled by a competent developer I dare not even dream of.

I mean how come Pokemon Reborn (an RPG maker based PC fangame) is so damn vastly superior is just about every regard? The only thing worse in that is the lack of many attack animations. Anyone interested in the franchise that hasn't given this game a try yet, I highly recommend doing so. (here's a link)

Oh god, Reborn is god awful.

I've tried a lot of fangames and none of them are good.
 
Is there any gallery of screenshots from Moon on citra with the no lines hack? The Pokemon models are gorgeous except for the really pixelly textures on faces and such.
 
Gamefreak is so bad at game design and technically inept, too. At this point I wouldn't even be surprised if an eventual switch Pokemon version suffers from major lag issues while delivering underwhelming visuals.

Where this franchise could be if handled by a competent developer I dare not even dream of.

I mean how come Pokemon Reborn (an RPG maker based PC fangame) is so damn vastly superior is just about every regard? The only thing worse in that is the lack of many attack animations. Anyone interested in the franchise that hasn't given this game a try yet, I highly recommend doing so. (here's a link)
Because we're still buying it so they could care less. Sucks seeing ome of favorite franchises not even trying.
 

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Well it's not like Gamefreak is an exception to that. Just look at the night form of rock dog pokemon.

truly edgy

tumblr_inline_oej5lhkiIp1rfizd8_540.png


(I think the joke is that he looks edgy but actually acts more like a hotblooded if a bit cantankerous one, which is the opposite of edgy)

I mean if the writing were bad I might agree with you but it is so vastly superior to any Pokemon title by gamefreak and has actual an actual story and characters to get interested in that, eh, who gives a fuck about 'edgelord' designs.

Ah yes, custom shinies, truly the worst.

Actually if you notice, the games really suck if they do any attempt at story that they might as well focus their efforts on the gameplay mechanics, which is what the whole issue is about anyway. And Reborn doesn't really have that part snatched outside of a few which mostly is early gen oriented.

Also, nice way of ignoring the main point.

Since you're going out of your way I'll have to give another example - shit like changing types of existing pokemon is another garbage fans can't seem to help but do. Adding all starters because why not, or even adding all regions.

Reborn falls into the pit many fangames go to. If you want actual good fangame/mod, those that merely focus on difficulty are good examples.
 
Actually if you notice, the games really suck if they do any attempt at story that they might as well focus their efforts on the gameplay mechanics, which is what the whole issue is about anyway. And Reborn doesn't really have that part snatched outside of a few which mostly is early gen oriented.

Also, nice way of ignoring the main point.

Since you're going out of your way I'll have to give another example - shit like changing types of existing pokemon is another garbage fans can't seem to help but do. Adding all starters because why not, or even adding all regions.

Reborn falls into the pit many fangames go to. If you want actual good fangame/mod, those that merely focus on difficulty are good examples.

Okay but Pokemon Reborn isn't changing types of existing Pokemon. It does allow you to choose from all starters at the beginning but although that is a common occurrence in fan games, I don't see how that's much of a negative? I mean it's common because people appreciate just that.

And it's not the story and stuff I like about Reborn primarily. No, it's the actual game design. Difficulty curve, overworld map design, the in depth 'terrain' system that really, really grew on me, itemization (when you acquire items, good change to potions as hyper potions aren't so quickly available and instead you get the intermediate 'ultra potions' before [hey, with Sun/Moon even GF finally recognized that 200hp regenerating potions were stupidly strong for being relatively early available]) and more.

edit: Oh I definitely need to mention the puzzles which are actually nicely challenging. That is something that we're apparently never going to get in official Pokemon versions because GF wants to appeal to the lowest common denominator at all times.

That there's actually a nice story and characters that have actual character is just a nice addition on top. So is the fantastic OST.

Can I ask how far you actually got into Reborn?
 
Where can I find a summary of all (or most of the important bits) of information in this thread. I don't want to read through all theset pages skimming for info.

Thanks.
 

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Okay but Pokemon Reborn isn't changing types of existing Pokemon. It does allow you to choose from all starters at the beginning but although that is a common occurrence in fan games, I don't see how that's much of a negative? I mean it's common because people appreciate just that.

And it's not the story and stuff I like about Reborn primarily. No, it's the actual game design. Difficulty curve, overworld map design, the in depth 'terrain' system that really, really grew on me, itemization (when you acquire items, good change to potions as hyper potions aren't so quickly available and instead you get the intermediate 'ultra potions' before [hey, with Sun/Moon even GF finally recognized that 200hp regenerating potions were stupidly strong for being relatively early available]) and more.

That there's actually a nice story and characters that have actual character is just a nice addition on top. So is the fantastic OST.

Can I ask how far you actually got into Reborn?

The terrain system is something I don't like primarily because it's "fangame baggage" rather than just simply modding a game to make it harder with QoL. But this thread isn't the one for it so I suggest simply making a thread for pokemon fangames.
 

Azuran

Banned
so no hordes, no super training, no triples, no rotations, no national dex, no new megas, no dex nav, no move tutors

but hey, there's no hms anymore, and uh some op pokemon got nerfed, and they brought back trainer customisation, and trainers show up in the battle screen now, and it's a fully 3D environment, and it's apparently more challenging now with totems and exp scaling

This is killing my hype for the game. This is honestly ridiculous no matter how you slice it and the saddest part is all the people I'm seeing actually defending Game Freak's stupid ass decisions.

Why can't they go ONE single game without removing useful features? God, why is Pokemon stuck with such a backward developer?
 

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Ironically that one gen that didn't really cut (at least, didn't cut superfluous features) was Gen VI

Like I said I'd rather have no trainer models if we wouldn't sacrifice stuff like triple battle and horde.
 
Ironically that one gen that didn't really cut (at least, didn't cut superfluous features) was Gen VI

Like I said I'd rather have no trainer models if we wouldn't sacrifice stuff like triple battle and horde.

did Gen V cut anything other than cross gen evolutions?

B2W2 have some of the biggest improvements of the series imo
 

Delio

Member
Ironically that one gen that didn't really cut (at least, didn't cut superfluous features) was Gen VI

Like I said I'd rather have no trainer models if we wouldn't sacrifice stuff like triple battle and horde.

I do agree with this. I'd take away Trainer models for horde battles again.
 
The terrain system is something I don't like primarily because it's "fangame baggage" rather than just simply modding a game to make it harder with QoL. But this thread isn't the one for it so I suggest simply making a thread for pokemon fangames.

Yeh I don't have much to say anymore anyways when I see you decrying very well done systems as 'fangame baggage' because you have a very narrow vision of the ideal fan game. Sounds to me more like you want very simple, barebone mods which affect almost exclusively the difficulty. Those rom hacks and whatnot do exist but since I was originally talking about actual game design I wouldn't bring those up.

This is killing my hype for the game. This is honestly ridiculous no matter how you slice it and the saddest part is all the people I'm seeing actually defending Game Freak's stupid ass decisions.

Why can't they go ONE single game without removing useful features? God, why is Pokemon stuck with such a backward developer?

Wish I knew. After being tired out by their games Pokemon Uranium (which was mediocre) got me curious in checking out more fan games and Pokemon Reborn managed to far surpass any expectations. So then my flame was sorta lit again and I figured my 3DS that's been collecting dust might be in need of a new game anyways. So I considered getting Sun/Moon perhaps. But now all interest is vanished yet again.

The mere technical side is continuously frustrating to follow. Just alone the screenshots of a ludicrously off-scale Wailord next to their trainers is so...lame. Like, isn't that something that the Pokemon Stadium games already got right? I just took a look and apparently Nintendo EAD were the developer of that. Just a tad more competent than GF... a tad.
 

Sandfox

Member
Ignoring any issue with how insulting the term "lowest common denominator" is, I don't see the problem with a franchise like Pokemon focusing more on the casual players when they make up the majority of the audience.
 
Pokemon Reborn is friggin' brilliant. From a purely gameplay standpoint it's leaps and bounds ahead of the main series and I've had a blast both times I've played through it.

The writing I can take or leave, but I've never played a Pokemon game for the writing so it's really no big deal in the long run. The music is incredible as well; the dev chose a great selection of fan remixes and original songs to give the game's soundtrack a very distinct "flavour."
 

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Gen IV -> V removed a bunch of Poketch functionality (usually there's an NPC that mimics the functionality) and berry growing. Yeah I don't consider pokemon follower important.

Yeh I don't have much to say anymore anyways when I see you decrying very well done systems as 'fangame baggage' because you have a very narrow vision of the ideal fan game. Sounds to me more like you want very simple, barebone mods which affect almost exclusively the difficulty. Those rom hacks and whatnot do exist but since I was originally talking about actual game design I wouldn't bring those up.

I don't mind mods that give QoL stuff, but not stuff that add nonsense like additional mechanics.
 
Gen IV -> V removed a bunch of Poketch functionality (usually there's an NPC that mimics the functionality) and berry growing.



I don't mind mods that give QoL stuff, but not stuff that add nonsense like additional mechanics.

oh yeah i forgot about the poketch

there was some neat stuff on there, i liked the daycare app thing
 
Pokemon Reborn is friggin' brilliant. From a purely gameplay standpoint it's leaps and bounds ahead of the main series and I've had a blast both times I've played through it.

The writing I can take or leave, but I've never played a Pokemon game for the writing so it's really no big deal in the long run. The music is incredible as well; the dev chose a great selection of fan remixes and original songs to give the game's soundtrack a very distinct "flavour."

As someone that usually isn't big on nostalgia I also really have to commend the awesomeness that's the glitchy computer world you get into before fighting Terra. Red's and Blue's appearance has nothing on something like that.
 
As someone that usually isn't big on nostalgia I also really have to commend the awesomeness that's the glitchy computer world you get into before fighting Terra. Red's and Blue's appearance has nothing on something like that.

Yeah, the in-game justification for that was bullcrap but it was such a cool area that I ended up not even caring. Changing her battle theme to the RBY Champion theme was awesome too.
 

Carl7

Member
I'm pretty sure horde battles were popular among casuals. The removal is even more painful because they actually traded it for a graphical gimmick.
 

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
heh

OCwDDoA.png


I'm pretty sure horde battles were popular among casuals. The removal is even more painful because they actually traded it for a graphical gimmick.

trainer models themselves make scaling pokemon terrible, so it actually caused more problems
 

Seil

Member
Let's say we wanted to ev that Azumarill in sun and moon:

Azumarill
EVs: 164 HP / 252 Atk / 92 Spe

I would give it 10 hp ups, 10 proteins and 9 carbos. Faint 2 pokemon in the wild for 2 speed evs, probably the regional bird. Can we get 64 in the plaza store and deposit in the pokepelago until it reaches 252 in atk?

Gotta test the berries as well.

So I've taken it upon myself to do some testing now with EV related stuff, yay!

First off, let's break down Poke Pelago:

---------- Isle Evelup ----------

This is the name of the island in the Poke Pelago that lets you train EVs. It also allows you to gain experience, but that's not the point of this and I didn't test it. First I'll explain how it works.

At level 1, you can have one "group" train. A group is 1-6 Pokemon from your boxes. You place some Pokemon into the group then select a drink/training regimen. The options are exp and the six stats. Then you select an amount of "play sessions" which each take 30 minutes. By using Poke Beans, you can speed things up. Things move at double speed while Poke Beans are in effect, meaning while using Poke Beans you can shorten sessions to 15 minutes each.

At level 2 you unlock a second group, at level 3 you'll unlock a third group. This means that at level 3, you can have three different types of training sessions going on at once with up to 6 Pokemon in each. A Pokemon can only be in one group, so you can't train one in three different ways at the same time.

"But what about the EV rate?" you ask? Well, at level 1 you'll receive 1 EV in the stat per "play session" so every 15/30 minutes you'll earn 1 EV. At level 2 this changes to 2 EVs and, while I haven't checked this because I don't have the beans to reach level 3 yet, I'm assuming level 3 will be 3 EVs.

With the doubled speed provided by using poke beans, that means you'd get 4, 8 or 12 EVs per hour depending on the level of your island. Without the speed boost, you'll get 2, 4 or 6 per hour. So... yeah...

Moving on!

---------- Festival Plaza ----------

So I checked two types of stalls here. One was a 1* Bouncy House, the other was a 1* Food Stall that serves EV related meals. You can only use a given option from these stalls once per day. So, I could train both Sp Def and Def in the bouncy house today, but only once each.

The Bouncy House cost me 5 FC to do a session and earned 4 EVs in the stat. The food stall cost me 20 FC per meal for 10 EVs per stat. If we assume these numbers double for a 2* stall, then the bouncy house would be 8 EVs and the food stall would be 20 EVs. And again possibly 12 and 30 at 3*? This is speculation as I can't test what I don't have.

So that's that...

---------- EV Berries ----------

These still reduce EVs by 10 each.

---------- Vitamins ----------

These still increase EVs by 10 each, up to a max of 100 in the stat.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So what about the example quoted above?


Vitamins used to get to 100 in each HP and Attack, and 90 in Speed. This'll total 290k as they're 10k a pop. Alternatively, it'll cost 58 BP, as they're 2 BP each.

You could get 64 HP via the plaza, but it would likely require multiple stalls and would be a one-off for the day.

Then that 152 Attack via Isle Evelup is gonna take 152 play sessions at level 1,76 sessions at level 2 or 51 sessions at level 3 (under the assumption that level 3 is 3 EVs per "session"). That's gonna take 38 or 76 hours at level 1, 19 or38 hours at level 2, and 12.75 or 25.5 hours at level 3.
 
That Hyper Training stupidity finally confirms that GF has no idea how to properly design a game. It's so simple to overhaul the [crappy] current HP and IV system for the better and yet they won't do it.

Removing Super Training and Hordes (even if it's for performance issues...which still doesn't explain why we have the PokeSnap crap if it's making the game run at MS Powerpoint levels) also hurts both the casual and hardcore audiences for obvious reasons. I'm done trying to understand their moves, it's clear as day that they are 10 steps behind and refuse to move forward.
 

Sandfox

Member
That Hyper Training stupidity finally confirms that GF has no idea how to properly design a game. It's so simple to overhaul the [crappy] current HP and IV system for the better and yet they won't do it.

Removing Super Training and Hordes (even if it's for performance issues...which still doesn't explain why we have the PokeSnap crap if it's making the game run at MS Powerpoint levels) also hurts both the casual and hardcore audiences for obvious reasons. I'm done trying to understand their moves, it's clear as day that they are 10 steps behind and refuse to move forward.

What's wrong with Hyper Training?
 

Busaiku

Member
Does Burn Orb burn every turn, or just the firs turn?
If the latter, with the Burn nerf/Guts buff, Sparkling Aria could actually be pretty good.
 

Delio

Member
So I've taken it upon myself to do some testing now with EV related stuff, yay!

First off, let's break down Poke Pelago:

---------- Isle Evelup ----------

This is the name of the island in the Poke Pelago that lets you train EVs. It also allows you to gain experience, but that's not the point of this and I didn't test it. First I'll explain how it works.

At level 1, you can have one "group" train. A group is 1-6 Pokemon from your boxes. You place some Pokemon into the group then select a drink/training regimen. The options are exp and the six stats. Then you select an amount of "play sessions" which each take 30 minutes. By using Poke Beans, you can speed things up. Things move at double speed while Poke Beans are in effect, meaning while using Poke Beans you can shorten sessions to 15 minutes each.

At level 2 you unlock a second group, at level 3 you'll unlock a third group. This means that at level 3, you can have three different types of training sessions going on at once with up to 6 Pokemon in each. A Pokemon can only be in one group, so you can't train one in three different ways at the same time.

"But what about the EV rate?" you ask? Well, at level 1 you'll receive 1 EV in the stat per "play session" so every 15/30 minutes you'll earn 1 EV. At level 2 this changes to 2 EVs and, while I haven't checked this because I don't have the beans to reach level 3 yet, I'm assuming level 3 will be 3 EVs.

With the doubled speed provided by using poke beans, that means you'd get 4, 8 or 12 EVs per hour depending on the level of your island. Without the speed boost, you'll get 2, 4 or 6 per hour. So... yeah...

Moving on!

---------- Festival Plaza ----------

So I checked two types of stalls here. One was a 1* Bouncy House, the other was a 1* Food Stall that serves EV related meals. You can only use a given option from these stalls once per day. So, I could train both Sp Def and Def in the bouncy house today, but only once each.

The Bouncy House cost me 5 FC to do a session and earned 4 EVs in the stat. The food stall cost me 20 FC per meal for 10 EVs per stat. If we assume these numbers double for a 2* stall, then the bouncy house would be 8 EVs and the food stall would be 20 EVs. And again possibly 12 and 30 at 3*? This is speculation as I can't test what I don't have.

So that's that...

---------- EV Berries ----------

These still reduce EVs by 10 each.

---------- Vitamins ----------

These still increase EVs by 10 each, up to a max of 100 in the stat.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So what about the example quoted above?


Vitamins used to get to 100 in each HP and Attack, and 90 in Speed. This'll total 290k as they're 10k a pop. Alternatively, it'll cost 58 BP, as they're 2 BP each.

You could get 64 HP via the plaza, but it would likely require multiple stalls and would be a one-off for the day.

Then that 152 Attack via Isle Evelup is gonna take 152 play sessions at level 1,76 sessions at level 2 or 51 sessions at level 3 (under the assumption that level 3 is 3 EVs per "session"). That's gonna take 38 or 76 hours at level 1, 19 or38 hours at level 2, and 12.75 or 25.5 hours at level 3.

Wow this sounds really dumb lol. Like why bother with any of that and just hack legit stuff or get someone to do it for you and move on. Way to kill me ev training Gamefreak :/
 

Noobcraft

Member
Oh god, Reborn is god awful.

I've tried a lot of fangames and none of them are good.
Every single fanmade Pokémon game I've seen takes itself way too seriously. People dying, wars, super dark storylines/teams. All of them I've seen have tried way too hard.
 
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