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Why are Dungeon RPGs (EO, Wizardry) not very popular? How can it be evolved?

Sinatar

Official GAF Bottom Feeder
Probably my favorite genre.

First off, we're basically in the midst of a DRPG Renaissance, maybe at the tail end of it. Legend of Grimrock 1+2, Might and Magic Legacy X, Bard's Tale 4, tons of mobile ones [The Quest, 7 Mages, etc], tons of lesser known steam ones, Star Crawlers...

The reason the sub-genre isn't as popular as popular as some is because, well, it's intentionally niche. Much of the enjoyment is based on resource management, mapmaking, problem solving, and risk management. These aren't things most people like.

That's not a bad thing.

We -should- have genres that not everyone likes... because not everyone is the same. I'm extremely happy some genres exist that tailor to what I like in a game, even though I know they'll never be super popular. I don't want those genres to change to become 'more inclusive', because then they wouldn't appeal to me in the first place.

People complain a drpg is 'always in a dungeon'... I mean, what do you think the D stands for? That's the point! Complex dungeons with complex traps. Lose your situational awareness, get lost, get party wiped. Go to deep without enough supplies? Party wipe. This is a good thing.

Keep in mind most of the discussion here is around japanese DRPG's (Elminage, Etrian Odyssey, Stranger in the Sword City etc) which are all still stuck in the Wizardry 1 rut.

Western dungeon RPG's evolved past that decades ago and are still trucking along just fine.
 

Daeoc

Member
Combat itself is often similar to any other turn based party combat system, so I'm not sure how it's any more boring than most jrpgs.

As for 'story'... yes, there's often less story in dRPGs. Thankfully. That's a huge plus in my book

I play games for their combat systems, and pretty much never care about their stories.Most jrpgs leave me feeling like I'm just pushing forward, easily killling things w/o any real danger.

Not surprisingly, my favorite jrpgs are the ones that have the closest similarities to dRPGs, games like Nocturne and Digital Devil Saga 1/2.

Since combat is often similar to any other turn based party combat system, I much rather play those other turn based games that has more to them. Like you said though, you want less(at least it is less for me), so they are perfect for you. You only want combat, I want more.

For you, jrpgs leave you feeling like you are just pushing forward, but for me, that is how drpgs feel. DDS1/2 and Nocturne are leagues ahead of the drpgss I've tried to get into, but I can see how they are more like a drpg when compared to other jrpgs.

Keep in mind most of the discussion here is around japanese DRPG's (Elminage, Etrian Odyssey, Stranger in the Sword City etc) which are all still stuck in the Wizardry 1 rut.

Western dungeon RPG's evolved past that decades ago and are still trucking along just fine.

Yeah, Legend of Grimrock sits at the top out of the ones I've tried.
 

orborborb

Member
the best evolution of dungeon crawlers is my view were the original Doom, Descent, Hexen, and Marathon games, System Shock, and Dark Souls. They retained the level design complexity and gameplay relevant secrets and traps and spatial puzzles and long term risk management while sucessfully adding action and storytelling

party management is better done by wrpgs when it comes to role playing and jrpgs when it comes to battle systems
 

laxu

Member
The dungeon setting for me is always a minus. I remember playing games like Legacy Realm of Terror and liking it because the setting was at least initially something more tangible, a labyrinthine house.
 
Give 'em a bigger budget & high quality production values.
Change from 1st person perspective to a 3rd person perspective.
Add more story.

So basically if you want to see how a dungeon crawler RPG can be evolved into something with more popularity, you can look at Persona 3-5.
 

Dark_castle

Junior Member
Give 'em a bigger budget & high quality production values.
Change from 1st person perspective to a 3rd person perspective.
Add more story.

So basically if you want to see how a dungeon crawler RPG can be evolved into something with more popularity, you can look at Persona 3-5.
Was hoping Deep Down to be that game. It looked really promising, but alas it's stuck in development hell.
 

MLH

Member
*shrugs* I love the genre. Etrian Odyssey in particular is my favorite, the music, environments, survival element design are all lovely. I love that I can pick a party of characters and make them my own; planning a party and creating a group who's skills I decide, success depends on my decisions and planning.
I love that I'm not forced to listen to hours of constant back-and-forth dialogue between characters discussing concepts I fully understand *cough* Persona * cough*. Story is light, there are no crazy cut-scenes or forced everything happens in front of me as usually text based. It's very refreshing.

For fellow fans of Dungeon Crawlers, I highly recommend The Dark Spire on Nintendo DS, it's really old school design, has many elements of classic dungeon and dragon style games: Classes, alignments, rolled stats, Armor Class, text-based narrated story. It's a really engrossing game, also hard as balls. Catchy music too!

Legend of Grimrock 1 & 2 are also excellent, modern design and easy to get into.

Also played Demon Gaze but found it bland and a chore to get through. Also gave Stranger of Sword city a go since the art style looked cool, but felt just the same as Demon Gaze. I don't think Experience Inc.s Dungeon crawlers are any good ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I love all types of games really and can see the appeal of many genres, my least favorite being competitive shooters (but I'm playing Splatoon 2 and enjoying it!) People ought to be more open minded, so many good games out there.
 

redcrayon

Member
Give 'em a bigger budget & high quality production values.
Change from 1st person perspective to a 3rd person perspective.
Add more story.

So basically if you want to see how a dungeon crawler RPG can be evolved into something with more popularity, you can look at Persona 3-5.
Having played Persona 4, wouldn't that mean popular dungeon crawlers with poor dungeons? Unless you mean vast increase in production values and more downtime between dungeon runs, in which case I agree.
 
I'll say it again!

The pedo and ugly art style is holding EO back. Lots of people give it a pass because of how it looks.

I don't think it'd make a huge difference, but I do wish they'd fix that. Don't even need to scrap the whole art style (some of it is fine), just the uguu moe faces and the occasional 8 year old with her tits out.
 

redcrayon

Member
I will not go into this so aggressively,given I don't really mind the art, but I guess that if you're not into anime-y look, you might lose interest..

Frankly, they should update the archaic mechanics of EO ..
The genre in itself has done little to improve the original formula..
Party malamente feels awkward..
Meaning that yes you can change classes, but it's always relaying on an holy trinity system..
Tank, healer, dps..
And inbetween support or hybrid of the core roles..

I want ability chaining to increase damage//create added effect (status effect maybe?)..
I want the possibility to infuse gear to have elemental resistance in the gear and added via enhancement with a proper enhancement system..
I want a more shelled out crafting.. meaning you delegate someone in your guild//base to do a crafter and have a dynamic tree, so you unlock new tier // variation for each crafting skills based on your previous craft..
also a research ability that influence both craft availability, ability units learning tree..
I want also a city that feels alive, and not a clusterfuck that is there with 3-4 location with menu driven interaction..
And while we're at it, branching class specialization, dual classing, tutoring system (master pass some skills of the original class to pupil, clearly some limitations apply)..

Also I would appreciate a "lead" character and not just random joe..
And why not, properly detailed party member... you randomize aspect and class and gender.. based on that the game generate a side-story detailing their recruitment process..

And a lot of other stuff can be added, or even completely different stuff from what I listed can be added..
The point is, the genre is ripe for improvement, but no one is willing to take the chance..

I've bolded the stuff that already exists in one or more of the EO games, in particular ability chaining is in several through various 'chase x elemental/bind' moves, particularly with various archer and debuffer classes. Nice list of suggestions otherwise, I agree they could offer a lot more options in town.
 

Boney

Banned
I don't think it'd make a huge difference, but I do wish they'd fix that. Don't even need to scrap the whole art style (some of it is fine), just the uguu moe faces and the occasional 8 year old with her tits out.
Considering you make your own characters and half are males, you don't have to see any moe if you don't want to.
 
Considering you make your own characters and half are males, you don't have to see any moe if you don't want to.

I'm a woman and I like playing with female characters and teams if the game allows it. Restricting my own choices goes against the whole "create your own character" nature of these games.

Plus the pedo designs are disgusting whether I choose to ignore them or not.
 
The great wheel keeps on spinning eh?

The Answer, aside from the obvious of not sacrificing presentation/QoL/QA/etc, is just to GO BACK TO P&P ROOTS. Same as with all the jrpg hand wringing cycles that keep popping up as bouts with nostalgia flounder.

You don't even necessarily have to go back to the exact same late 70's/80's/90's P&P either---Japan has a fair homegrown crop unto itself as does the rest of the world running all sorts of variety in mechanics, backdrop, world building, and so forth.

"DRPG" if folks have to be wed to terms like the damned Roguelike Wars, is an Expression---as such, you first need to consider Foundation else whatever you are trying to communicate is just going to get muddled and warped under the weight of however shiny the surface.
 
Do they have to be first person to be considered "Dungeon RPGs"? Like, would games such as Vagrant Story, some SMT games (mainly the old ones) and Xanadu Next qualify here?
 

DxD

Banned
Because the presentation is awful.

You use a skill: It is some red slash or some special magic affect. Vice versa for the enemy against you. Zero impact due to no animation interaction between characters.
You will never see your character awesome sprite, just their avatar portrait on a screen.
You have to pretend you are on an awesome quest with as an invisible Player Avatar+team.
And usually, your Player Avatar is also a mute. And if the story isn't good, a mute avatar means zero emotion connection with the avatar and the player.

Basically, you can't see the action, the character full sprite and movement, and zero connection due to "invisible" characters.

All you see is a 4x4 square box, inching along a background of random wallpaper you see at your grandma's house.
That is my take on DRPG.
 

autoduelist

Member
Keep in mind most of the discussion here is around japanese DRPG's (Elminage, Etrian Odyssey, Stranger in the Sword City etc) which are all still stuck in the Wizardry 1 rut.

Western dungeon RPG's evolved past that decades ago and are still trucking along just fine.

I'm talking about those too. I've plat'd most drpgs on vita [Stranger in Sword City, Dungeon Traveler's 2, Op Abyss, Demon Gaze, even Mind Zero] though still have a few to get to.

I don't see the issue with any of them... they're what I want them to be, give or take. DT2 has fantastic dungeons all things considered. Stranger in Sword City attempted some interesting ideas regarding running multiple parties, though I don't think succeeded at that [despite being a great little game anyway]. I like the old school spell system of Op Abyss. Demon Gaze is easily accessible, and I love the way they handled lewt discovery.

I wish they'd stop with the anime characters/plots - I greatly prefer blank slate fantasy characters over high school drama in bikinis.

Ultimately, most of the stuff people seem to be complaining about in here [just dungeons! no story! all combat! focus on mechanics! mapping takes too long!] are exactly the things people into dRPGs like about dRPGs.

Another big issue is that some 'modern conveniences' like auto-mapping seriously hurt some of dRPG fundamentals. For example, what good is a teleport or spinner trap if you have automap? The whole point is those traps should disorient and confuse the player, but instead, it's a minor inconvenience at most.

Since combat is often similar to any other turn based party combat system, I much rather play those other turn based games that has more to them. Like you said though, you want less(at least it is less for me), so they are perfect for you. You only want combat, I want more.

For you, jrpgs leave you feeling like you are just pushing forward, but for me, that is how drpgs feel. DDS1/2 and Nocturne are leagues ahead of the drpgss I've tried to get into, but I can see how they are more like a drpg when compared to other jrpgs.

Yeah, Legend of Grimrock sits at the top out of the ones I've tried.

I'd want 'more' if I found jrpg stories interesting at all, but unfortunately, that's yet to happen with only a few exceptions. I don't care much about the story behind saving the world if the combat and exploration isn't engaging. And while some here think mapping a dungeon is boring, I'd argue that's deep puzzle solving and good dungeon design is very engaging. Making your way through a field of easy enemies that you can't possibly get lost in on to the next town, rinse and repeat, may be 'more' story... but is far less engaging to me.
 

Nocturno999

Member
No idea. Maybe you had to play the original games back in the 80's to truly appreciate them.
Maybe marketing have failed to attract the younger generations of players.

I love the constant sense of fear of the unknown and immersion. The Dark Spire is a 3DS hidden gem. Legend of Grimrock series are a must also.
 
Diablo is a modern evolution of the traditional roguelike, not dRPG.

Also, more of a click/lootfest. Which, while not bad, is even more repetitious IMO. DRPGs, at least the best of them at least require varied tactics in their encounters.

And that some of these people who bring up story are quite possibly the same people who enjoy Kingdom Hearts for that reason kind of shoots their credibility.
 

gforguava

Member
And that some of these people who bring up story are quite possibly the same people who enjoy Kingdom Hearts for that reason kind of shoots their credibility.
What the heck is this nonsense? What does Kingdom Hearts have to do with anything?

This thread has convinced me to reinstall Legend of Grimrock and to give it another go. Not sure how far I'll make it but I definitely want to try to see it for what it is and to avoid harping on it for what I feel it is lacking.
 

cj_iwakura

Member
What the heck is this nonsense? What does Kingdom Hearts have to do with anything?

This thread has convinced me to reinstall Legend of Grimrock and to give it another go. Not sure how far I'll make it but I definitely want to try to see it for what it is and to avoid harping on it for what I feel it is lacking.

It's a fantastic experience. Very, VERY masochistic, but there's really no DC quite like it.
 

jimboton

Member
I love the constant sense of fear of the unknown and immersion. The Dark Spire is a 3DS hidden gem. Legend of Grimrock series are a must also.
Truth. The Dark Spire is an underrated gem, the truest heir to Wizardry I've ever played. Can also be played in a plain old Nintendo DS.

It's a fantastic experience. Very, VERY masochistic, but there's really no DC quite like it.
Really don't get where that's coming from? It even has difficulty settings. It's quite accessible for a DRPG imo.
 

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Wizardry 8 and 7 I think aren't traditional. 8 even has no "dungeons" and you don't move in a grid. Real time too.
 

Sulik2

Member
This thread should just be a psa to everyone to go play Might and Magic X, it's awesome and sratches the drpg itch.
 

cj_iwakura

Member
Truth. The Dark Spire is an underrated gem, the truest heir to Wizardry I've ever played. Can also be played in a plain old Nintendo DS.


Really don't get where that's coming from? It even has difficulty settings. It's quite accessible for a DRPG imo.

The dungeon layouts, ease of encountering an instant death monster, etc. It has a pretty steep curve, but I'm talking about playing on standard difficulty.
 
EO does everything right save for its appalling character and monster design.

ZrvSgGL.png


Don't be talkin' mess about EO's monster designs.

I am routinely put off by their presentation. The games just make it so hard to become engaged with them, so not only are they light on story but, as jiggle mentioned above, the 'portraits as characters' makes it hard to even care about your party.
Why combat is still uniformly presented as some variation of 'first person but your party doesn't really exist' is beyond me.


So you end up with a long, hard game(usually) that doesn't really give me a reason to want to come back to it. I used to love these games in the past, I love the original Lands of Lore, and I think a large part of the reason why was that they were more immersive than your average game. It was you and your party making your way through an elaborate game-space fighting a variety of monsters and dangers. But now the pendulum has swung the other way and they might be some of the least immersive games around.

These are games that are the MOST immersive...provided one fills the spaces the game provides with imagination.

It's like buying a ready made deck and having it installed while you do something else cuz you're busy and a woodworker making that deck themselves. This is a Woodworking Genre.


"What the fuck is that? I DUNNO!!!"

swL1hah.jpg


Small, subtle touches to the level design weave a story, with moments of designated narrative having monumental attention that it's harder to do with more theatrical or cinematic takes. It also avoids having that start-stop-start-stop danger to the pacing of the gameplay.

So I don't doubt that by design it's exceedingly difficult to serve both the genre and those with no love for it.

Personally, I want them to be more "modernized." Not in that they follow popular trends so much as going "hey, we can do THIS with technology now!", namely not being bound to a grid and QOL improvements. Wizardry 8 seemed an example of this, and Bard's Tale 3 sounds like it too albeit with optional grid play. I'd like to be able to play a phase based first person RPG that had cities you could explore freely too. As is you'd have to go to Elder Scrolls and you'd get janky real time combat instead.

We at least got the QOL improvements with the other games that came out in modern times though.

Wizardry 8 was that...in 2001.

Goes to show how many evolutionary trends died in the early Aughts for PC, how these experiments were already up and running two decades ago, and how little the genre has in common with the standard evolutionary trends alive now. It's another reason why Demon's Souls is miraculous for its very existance.
 

Mozendo

Member
Do they have to be first person to be considered "Dungeon RPGs"? Like, would games such as Vagrant Story, some SMT games (mainly the old ones) and Xanadu Next qualify here?

The old SMT games are first person unless you're talking about something else?
But yeah Dungeon Crawlers/Dungeon RPGS don't need to be first person, Shiren the Wanderer is a dungeon-crawler as is Diablo, Dark Cloud, and Persona 3.
 

bati

Member
But yeah Dungeon Crawlers/Dungeon RPGS don't need to be first person, Shiren the Wanderer is a dungeon-crawler as is Diablo, Dark Cloud, and Persona 3.

In that case UnderRail might be one of the best dungeon crawlers available right now. It's excellent, I really recommend people check it out.
 

vocab

Member
I personally think the bare bones wizardry formula of this is a guild here and you can register characters here and heres the quest board shit is just boring. A lot of them are too samey. Theres no hook to them, at least for me. Hell, the only reason I got 20 hours out of EO4 was the airship stuff kinda drew me on, but then the game comes to a halt quick.


I personally want more free movement style games like kings field, w8, mm6, etc. I think they are more atmospheric and mysterious than a lot of the grid based shit. They are minimalistic and have hooks to keep you going.
 

luka

Loves Robotech S1
i think it's telling that a lot of the proposed improvements to the genre have been implemented in various games over the years and either led to the proliferation of entirely new genres or have simply died without ever having been succeeded... yet the classic drpg genre still persists today. maybe it's just a cynical appeal to nostalgia and developers less willing to experiement, but i think there is still a lot of merit to the classic formula - creating a party and pushing into the unknown, where each step you take brings you closer to a potential wipe, stretching your team's skills and resources as far as you can while always in the back of your mind thinking about whether it's time to turn back and if you'll be able to survive the return trip with what you have left. its a test of your long-term planning in building a team for maximum survivability and on-the-spot decision making and resource management, and it's such a compelling design ethos that people love the games despite them generally lacking in visual, narrative, and design flourishes.

i'd love to see them try to shake things up more often with elements like explorable towns (shining the holy ark/dinosaur/etc), overworlds (eo3/4), expansive narratives - but the more you try to expand upon and deviate from the original formula, the more you tend to dilute that razor focus that makes traditional drpgs so unique which is why i feel it's important for classic ("boring") wizardry 1-6 style experiences to continue to exist even if there isn't a huge market for them. even eo5 ended up abandoning its overworlds to refocus on a classic one-dungeon type of experience and double down on more expansive character creation options instead.
 
I'll say it again!

The pedo and ugly art style is holding EO back. Lots of people give it a pass because of how it looks.
Yeah, it's true for me. EO sounds very much like a game I enjoy, but I just can't bring myself to give it a try because of the art. I'm generally pretty tolerant of anime art style, but EO crosses the line.
 

Shizuka

Member
Not every genre will or should be popular. I'm happy as it is, I'm a huge fan of the genre and always buy every single new release. I can't wait for Demon Gaze II and Etrian Odyssey V.
 

cj_iwakura

Member
Yeah, it's true for me. EO sounds very much like a game I enjoy, but I just can't bring myself to give it a try because of the art. I'm generally pretty tolerant of anime art style, but EO crosses the line.

I personally think EO is tame compared to the likes of Neptunia. Only a handful of characters ever have provocative outfits, and it usually fits their job class. It goes less for sexualization like Idea Factory and just 'cute'.
 
I personally think EO is tame compared to the likes of Neptunia. Only a handful of characters ever have provocative outfits, and it usually fits their job class. It goes less for sexualization like Idea Factory and just 'cute'.

It IS tamer. EO panders on a very minimal basis just to stay in the Japanese public eye it seems, but still manages some decent character designs. Neptunia is all about the moe/loli factor (or at least the console anthropomorphic side thereof).
 

Kent

Member
I want to see the characters actually fight in my Jrpgs.

Literally the only reason.

Have you played (or seen/watched) Shining the Holy Ark?

It's more like a hybrid between a more traditional JRPG with DRPG styled dungeon exploration.

Presentation-wise, it makes a very important distinction for itself: Your perspective is specifically that of the main character, Arthur. In combat, your perspectives moves up to enemies and shows the special effects of you attacking, or casting spells, or whatever - but if another party member does something, you specifically see them go out and do their thing.

Additionally, in a bit of mechanics enabling presentation, random encounters require that certain directions of approach are available for specific enemy types to be encountered; some will only appear coming around corners, others from pits or pools of water nearby, some come charging down long hallways at you, etc.

t8IX899.gif


Similarly, this type of presentation carries over into towns as well; your perspective only very rarely ever leaves that of Arthur's viewpoint. Characters turn and talk to you when they address you, or to each other or your other party members. This isn't particularly noteworthy on its own, but the fact that the game treats your characters as characters that actually exist, rather than simply extensions of the player, makes for some significantly nicer presentation than your average DRPG.

uVaM4cC.png
XhVf1LE.png


That said, unlike most DRPGs, it doesn't feature anything in the way of character creation. It's really more like a normal JRPG, just with DRPG-styled dungeon exploration.
 
Have you played (or seen/watched) Shining the Holy Ark?

It's more like a hybrid between a more traditional JRPG with DRPG styled dungeon exploration.

Presentation-wise, it makes a very important distinction for itself: Your perspective is specifically that of the main character, Arthur. In combat, your perspectives moves up to enemies and shows the special effects of you attacking, or casting spells, or whatever - but if another party member does something, you specifically see them go out and do their thing.

Additionally, in a bit of mechanics enabling presentation, random encounters require that certain directions of approach are available for specific enemy types to be encountered; some will only appear coming around corners, others from pits or pools of water nearby, some come charging down long hallways at you, etc.

t8IX899.gif


Similarly, this type of presentation carries over into towns as well; your perspective only very rarely ever leaves that of Arthur's viewpoint. Characters turn and talk to you when they address you, or to each other or your other party members. This isn't particularly noteworthy on its own, but the fact that the game treats your characters as characters that actually exist, rather than simply extensions of the player, makes for some significantly nicer presentation than your average DRPG.

uVaM4cC.png
XhVf1LE.png


That said, unlike most DRPGs, it doesn't feature anything in the way of character creation. It's really more like a normal JRPG, just with DRPG-styled dungeon exploration.

It's pretty easy to blend distinct characters with customisation if you wanted though, just have distinct characters but enable them to change class and spend skills freely (something like FFXIII but with far less personal specialisation on each class or like FFV or FFT's story characters).
 

Keinning

Member
I personally think EO is tame compared to the likes of Neptunia. Only a handful of characters ever have provocative outfits, and it usually fits their job class. It goes less for sexualization like Idea Factory and just 'cute'.

Having something worse than it doesn't make it any less creepy to those bothered by the art. i know ive passed EO games because of the artstyle as well, and i managed to enjoy and even replay SMT Strange Journey several times so i don't think rough gameplay would have scared me.
 

SRG01

Member
It's because blob-rpgs typically result in grindfests with unsatisfying puzzle elements. Anecdotally, I had to stop playing Stranger of Sword City because I had to grind endlessly just to advance minor plot points.

Compare that with other J/WRPGS, where tangible interaction is standard.
 

PK Gaming

Member
Yeah, it's true for me. EO sounds very much like a game I enjoy, but I just can't bring myself to give it a try because of the art. I'm generally pretty tolerant of anime art style, but EO crosses the line.

EO only crosses the line if you let it

For instance... you can run:

This or this

This or this.

And so on. The games offer quite a bit of freedom when it comes to character building.

Also this particular class looks undeniably amazing.
 

Estoc

Member
Have you played (or seen/watched) Shining the Holy Ark?

It's more like a hybrid between a more traditional JRPG with DRPG styled dungeon exploration.

Presentation-wise, it makes a very important distinction for itself: Your perspective is specifically that of the main character, Arthur. In combat, your perspectives moves up to enemies and shows the special effects of you attacking, or casting spells, or whatever - but if another party member does something, you specifically see them go out and do their thing.

Additionally, in a bit of mechanics enabling presentation, random encounters require that certain directions of approach are available for specific enemy types to be encountered; some will only appear coming around corners, others from pits or pools of water nearby, some come charging down long hallways at you, etc.

t8IX899.gif


Similarly, this type of presentation carries over into towns as well; your perspective only very rarely ever leaves that of Arthur's viewpoint. Characters turn and talk to you when they address you, or to each other or your other party members. This isn't particularly noteworthy on its own, but the fact that the game treats your characters as characters that actually exist, rather than simply extensions of the player, makes for some significantly nicer presentation than your average DRPG.

uVaM4cC.png
XhVf1LE.png


That said, unlike most DRPGs, it doesn't feature anything in the way of character creation. It's really more like a normal JRPG, just with DRPG-styled dungeon exploration.

EO characters actually exist.

No, I'm not talking about the story-centric remakes, your characters exist even more so than most JRPG. In earlier games, you need characters of certain class to get through certain puzzle, which is essentially the story in this game, and in the latest, you can even level up dungeon-exploring skills to give your characters their own "personality". For example, you could have encountered a trapped bear cub, you could just save them and that's it, but if you had a medic/ranger on the team, they might offer you other options, such as treating its wounds or giving you insights of the surrounding and such.

It of course depends on your definition of character existence, for me, someone who played DnD for a while, I feel a character's existence means they(aka the player) have an agency in the story, that their existence in the party means I can get a different outcome to certain situation, rather than something like a typical JRPG where you just follow the hero/heroine's story with little interaction.

My experience with Shining the Holy Ark was brief, so I won't comment on it.
 

Kent

Member
EO characters actually exist.

No, I'm not talking about the story-centric remakes, your characters exist even more so than most JRPG. In earlier games, you need characters of certain class to get through certain puzzle, which is essentially the story in this game, and in the latest, you can even level up dungeon-exploring skills to give your characters their own "personality". For example, you could have encountered a trapped bear cub, you could just save them and that's it, but if you had a medic/ranger on the team, they might offer you other options, such as treating its wounds or giving you insights of the surrounding and such.

It of course depends on your definition of character existence, for me, someone who played DnD for a while, I feel a character's existence means they(aka the player) have an agency in the story, that their existence in the party means I can get a different outcome to certain situation, rather than something like a typical JRPG where you just follow the hero/heroine's story with little interaction.

My experience with Shining the Holy Ark was brief, so I won't comment on it.

That's a definition of character that exists outside of the game, though - rather than a character that exists inside of the game.

As you're describing the existence of a character, it relies on and exists solely in the mind of the player (which is what I'm using to refer to the User - the person playing the game - rather than an in-game character). This is the same reason why electronic RPGs don't generally have actual "role-playing" as part of them - because it's something the player chooses to do (similar in concept to metagaming), rather than something that exists internally to the game and specifically as a result of, and abiding by, its rules.

But I digress. Part of my point in describing Shining the Holy Ark is that, different from apparently most DRPGs, it establishes a cast of characters and treats them as a cast of characters, rather than treating them as simply a series of tools to use for playing the game - they do have their uses and capabilities, but they have any more in-universe depth than that, that isn't decided by the User.
 

mrmickfran

Member
I'll say it again!

The pedo and ugly art style is holding EO back. Lots of people give it a pass because of how it looks.
I'll never forget the guy who had an EO character for his avatar and continuously got shit on and never changed his avatar.

Even though he's banned, his avatar still lives on lol
 
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