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[SPOILERS] Persona 5 Spoiler Thread | Steal your heart; steel yourself
- Thread starter Nachos
- Start date
No, I wrote that poorly: My opinion has soured on a few small things OTHER than the ending. It's still my favorite.
We'll see after more time passes, but thematically it really hit stronger than 4. 3 is still real close, though.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
endings arent good unless they are making you depressed.
Beat this yesterday. Didn't realize how much it had ingrained itself in my life. I made breakfast this morning as usual, and out of habit sat down in front of my PS4 to play a little Persona 5 before work. It didn't hit me until I finished turning the console on that there was nothing else to play.
Miss them already. Although I will admit I'm glad to move on and work on some other games I've let slide into my backlog.
Ryuji is the best.
Miss them already. Although I will admit I'm glad to move on and work on some other games I've let slide into my backlog.
Ryuji is the best.
Hmmm. Persona 5 disappointed me in a lot of ways, but also surprised me as well. I'm still shocked that they could mess up the pacing so badly.
That said, there were a lot of thematic elements that I thought were handled much better than in previous games, the very end being one of them.
I definitely think I overhyped the game in my mind and the game didn't quite live up to those expectations. But I'd be lying if I said it wasn't one of the greatest games I've played in the past few years. I'll write up a review of it when more time has been able to pass, or if I give it a second go around.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
Ive been almost entirely playing multiplayer. Slowly working on my Witcher 3 save, as well as Fire Emblem Echoes. Super slow going on those though.
As much as I love P4, the ending doesn't do much for me. Or really anything.
The goodbyes feel kindve awkward considering the game still takes place in the information age, and its like Yu and his girlfriend just forget each other exists after yu goes home. Life and friendship's ending!
P5 on the other hand gets past its god shit and circles back around to the beginning of the game and brings Shido back into the fold with trying to get charges to stick. All of the people coming together and using their own strengths to try and get Joker out of jail. Regardless of having no impact on the ending, having all the confidants show up putting into motion their own ways of helping Joker was the most powerful use of the bonds message in the series, while also lacking all the awkwardness of P3 and P4's. Morgana gave me a really good laugh with his reasoning for disappearing for 2 months. Then the final day's goodbyes all talking about how the miss you and they will keep in touch and future plans that still include each other, and I loved the ending when the whole group gets together and calls off Joker taking the train home. It was clearly trying to be different than P4 there, but it was done in a way that really showed the group dynamic's final state brilliantly. I would've liked a bit more control over the final months, but from a storytelling standpoint I loved what they did.
P3 I can still only laugh at how dumb and forced it was.
Flame Lord
Member
I argue it was pointless for Mona to have disappeared at all. Shadows have been shown to be able to live in the real world, so if he's one it works. If he's supposed to be like the Velvet Room Attendants, we know they can be in the real world, so why wouldn't he? I guess you could argue though that just the Mascot form disappeared.
I also don't think the jail part is to crazy either. They needed you to be a witness for Shido's trial (I believe?), and though you didn't do anything, I imagine you wouldn't be cleared of your crimes until it was over, and until then they hold you in jail.
It does some things really well and some things not so well. I really enjoyed it, but I think it's the least impressed I've been with one of Hashino's games. There are a lot of things, particularly with the narrative and pacing, that could have been easily improved. Goro and Shido are such lame antagonists that it's unreal. Really felt like we'd stepped back to P3 era Atlus.
Even if igor created Mona i wouldn't really group him as an attendant since none of them really feel like humans to me and are basically robots who just do their job, even if the p3 attendant decide to leave after the events of the game. But as they put it in the ending that everything involving the cognition stuff and palaces are going to disappear along with their powers so it would be given that Mona would disappear too. Though, for me Mona is the worst character in all of the SMT games i have played so seeing that bastard get vaporized would have been amazing in every way.
I still think that they should have showed us at least a little bit of the aftermath and what it involved getting MC out of jail or what he did there, not just a cut in him getting out and Sae telling that it was tough and everything worked out in the end. The final bit of the ending felt rushed, probably my least favorite ending between p2-5.
Oh and you were supposed to be the scapegoat as Sae said so one would imagine that getting rid of the jail sentence would have been a thing that shouldn't have happened off screen.
Goro and shido aren't bad but the fact they had to put the whole god arc at the end it completely ate the lunch of palace 7s story.
The more days removed from the story the more I hate the way goro and shido were sidelined. It's like watching a marvel movie. In the grand scheme of things those small bumps don't matter because it's all about fighting the deity who uses only 4 of the 7 deadly sins as a weapon lol.
Dont get me started on morgana emotional moment only to pop up 2 months later like what's up yall.
The more days removed from the story the more I hate the way goro and shido were sidelined. It's like watching a marvel movie. In the grand scheme of things those small bumps don't matter because it's all about fighting the deity who uses only 4 of the 7 deadly sins as a weapon lol.
Dont get me started on morgana emotional moment only to pop up 2 months later like what's up yall.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
But he's stuck as a cat now, and will probably die in 10-14 years.
Mediking
Member
Mona should've turned into an actual Igor assistant. Like wearing the blur garb.
Akechi should've NEVER been a bad guy. Should've NEVER been Shido's son.
Shido was a worse villian than Kamoshida... and Shido was the one who "ruined" Joker's life.
The ending was typical SMT fashion.
Still best Persona game.
Akechi should've NEVER been a bad guy. Should've NEVER been Shido's son.
Shido was a worse villian than Kamoshida... and Shido was the one who "ruined" Joker's life.
The ending was typical SMT fashion.
Still best Persona game.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Wait... What do you want Skechi to be then?
Also, Mona should've been a girl.
Mediking
Member
Either a confidant link only OR stayed a good guy in the party.
Pretty much. That too. Should've turned into a girl. Or a guy. Just some different form.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Eh Skechi was built up way too much to be the villain.
Crimson will allow you to redeem him anyway through some bullshit.
Also i like mona being a cat. A cat is way cuter.
Crimson will allow you to redeem him anyway through some bullshit.
Also i like mona being a cat. A cat is way cuter.
Isaac Otherworld
Member
Ryuji should have been the traitor. There was so much foreshadowing for it.
UserDoesNotExist
Member
Completely agree. The game starts to fall apart during the seventh castle, and by the end it's trying to outdo itself in sheer stupidity. It feels like they needed to kill a god to check that entry off the Persona checklist, so they threw something together and made sure it looked awesome without bothering to make sure it was internally or thematically consistent.
I think they should have ran with the idea that the Phantom Thieves were actually making things worse by encouraging sloth in the masses. That was the one brief glimmer of hope in that entire ending that something interesting was happening. Which, of course, they immediately discarded.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
Despite understanding why people might not like the appearance of a god entity feeling it unnecessary, I can't understand how people think it was out of nowhere. It was foreshadowed from the moment Igor(?) opened his mouth.
That and trying to force the ending to be bittersweet for bittersweet's sake boggles my mind.
That and trying to force the ending to be bittersweet for bittersweet's sake boggles my mind.
ITT: People still not understanding why the last boss and the fight against a god were the most important part of the whole theme of the game.
People asking why the last part was even there didn't really understand the whole theme of the game and why it was necessary and foreshadowed since the start of the game.
Where is that good and long post that explains everything?
People asking why the last part was even there didn't really understand the whole theme of the game and why it was necessary and foreshadowed since the start of the game.
Where is that good and long post that explains everything?
StarCreator
Member
Yep. Time to listen to "Hoshi To Bokuro To" again.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Also it's persona/SMT. Having to fight a god at the end of the game shouldn't be anything surprising. 
The main message is that young people should be politically active and fight for their future. I think being optimist and showing that you can actually change society is a must here.
Somebody said that it'd have been cool if Morgana went back without being able to speak. Like, being a relatively normal cat.
It would have been amazing.
Without something like this, we can definitely confirm that Morgana is just a dick. Give Haru her tears back!
ShadowSoldier89
Member
grrrr...I know I have the screenshot of that line but it seems I never uploaded.
I should dump my whole screenshots folder somewhere. Let people see if there is any images they want since atlus wouldnt let them screenshot themselves.
Just wanted to contribute my two cents about Akechi. Personally, I loved the character and felt he was a fantastic villain. Im not really trying to argue that how other people feel about him as wrong, Im just going to share why I personally liked him so much and Ill cite a bunch of other shows/movies that have similar ideas.
First of all, I love how tragic he is. It looks like a lot of people took issue with him being Shidos son, but to me its appropriate because Akechi and Joker are very much supposed to be foils. Shido ruined both their lives, having them share that bond and both work towards a common goal for deeply personal reasons is appropriate. Beyond that though, what really elevated him to the next level for me is how bad I felt for him. To me, hes one of the most tragic characters Ive seen in any game.
One particular moment that really stood out was when Joker and his team try to tell him its not too late to change. They give him a way outa way to redeem himself and put an end to the pain, but hes too damaged to accept it. Its very reminiscent of Catwoman in Batman Returns. At the end of the movie, Bruce pulls off his mask and tells her to end it. By this point, theyve been through so much and have had to endure all this terrible pain, but Bruce still says they can put a stop to it. They can have a happy ending, but she just cant bring herself to accept it, so instead she leaves to pursue her justice by enacting vengeance on the businessman who caused her all this torment. So tragic, and in doing so, it leads to her pseudo-death. Very similar. Interestingly, like Batman and Catwoman in Batman Returns, they both lead back to a corrupt and terrible businessman, like Shido, acting as a catalyst for a lot of the stuff they go through in the movie. Obviously Max isnt Selinas father, but he did create Catwoman. Also, like Akechi, Selina tried to go through life doing things the right way. Especially Akechi, who went to school, got good grades, became respected in his field and really built a nice life for himself.
This leads to what makes this all the more painful: the fact that we got a glimpse into how things could have been. His life as an ace detective and especially when Akechi was on the team, forming bonds, having a little fun and adventuring with everyone, we saw the better path. We saw what he had, all he had to do was hold onto it. Once again, we happened to see this with Bruce and Selina during their time together when they werent in costume. They already had everything they needed. Knowing that things couldve easily been so nice hurts. Then, on subsequent playthroughs, that segment starts to feel like the end of Red Dead when things are calm and peaceful, and you just know it isnt going to last and its going to get taken away. It just made me feel terrible.
Its hard not to feel awful watching Akechi. So much of Persona 5 is about people being dealt a terrible hand by adults. Akechi was dealt a pretty terrible hand and became corrupted by his compromises.
I also look at him the way I look at Gaara, who is my favorite Naruto character, but watching Akechi is like watching a Gaara who never met Naruto, or met Naruto too late in life after he was too badly damaged. Hed have kept murdering and suffering. In these situations life was just unfair to them, as it was to all of Jokers team. Only difference is Akechi didnt have those bonds to free him.
Anyway, this is a long rambling thing, sorry for the novel, but I thought Akechi was amazing and the series best villain by far (in my opinion). I really felt for the guy, which I cant really say the same of with other villains in the series.
First of all, I love how tragic he is. It looks like a lot of people took issue with him being Shidos son, but to me its appropriate because Akechi and Joker are very much supposed to be foils. Shido ruined both their lives, having them share that bond and both work towards a common goal for deeply personal reasons is appropriate. Beyond that though, what really elevated him to the next level for me is how bad I felt for him. To me, hes one of the most tragic characters Ive seen in any game.
One particular moment that really stood out was when Joker and his team try to tell him its not too late to change. They give him a way outa way to redeem himself and put an end to the pain, but hes too damaged to accept it. Its very reminiscent of Catwoman in Batman Returns. At the end of the movie, Bruce pulls off his mask and tells her to end it. By this point, theyve been through so much and have had to endure all this terrible pain, but Bruce still says they can put a stop to it. They can have a happy ending, but she just cant bring herself to accept it, so instead she leaves to pursue her justice by enacting vengeance on the businessman who caused her all this torment. So tragic, and in doing so, it leads to her pseudo-death. Very similar. Interestingly, like Batman and Catwoman in Batman Returns, they both lead back to a corrupt and terrible businessman, like Shido, acting as a catalyst for a lot of the stuff they go through in the movie. Obviously Max isnt Selinas father, but he did create Catwoman. Also, like Akechi, Selina tried to go through life doing things the right way. Especially Akechi, who went to school, got good grades, became respected in his field and really built a nice life for himself.
This leads to what makes this all the more painful: the fact that we got a glimpse into how things could have been. His life as an ace detective and especially when Akechi was on the team, forming bonds, having a little fun and adventuring with everyone, we saw the better path. We saw what he had, all he had to do was hold onto it. Once again, we happened to see this with Bruce and Selina during their time together when they werent in costume. They already had everything they needed. Knowing that things couldve easily been so nice hurts. Then, on subsequent playthroughs, that segment starts to feel like the end of Red Dead when things are calm and peaceful, and you just know it isnt going to last and its going to get taken away. It just made me feel terrible.
Its hard not to feel awful watching Akechi. So much of Persona 5 is about people being dealt a terrible hand by adults. Akechi was dealt a pretty terrible hand and became corrupted by his compromises.
I also look at him the way I look at Gaara, who is my favorite Naruto character, but watching Akechi is like watching a Gaara who never met Naruto, or met Naruto too late in life after he was too badly damaged. Hed have kept murdering and suffering. In these situations life was just unfair to them, as it was to all of Jokers team. Only difference is Akechi didnt have those bonds to free him.
Anyway, this is a long rambling thing, sorry for the novel, but I thought Akechi was amazing and the series best villain by far (in my opinion). I really felt for the guy, which I cant really say the same of with other villains in the series.
I think somebody explained that childs in his situation (single mother, unknown father) have it quite tough when it comes down to being part of society. This whole thing could perfectly be a cultural problem that the game didn't manage to address.
I don't have a problem with him. He has been rejected during his whole life which has made him want two things:
A) Obtaining fame and power so he is accepted by society.
B) Getting revenge on the person that destroyed his life (which was Shido)
I don't think the game wants to say: oh poor Akechi he did nothing wrong it was all Shidos fault.
The game acknowledges it. The game just addresses that he's been screwed by the system like the MC. If anything, Akechi shows that Joker is an incredibly kind person.
Different characters have different reactions, but I don't think it was handled that badly tbh.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Did Skechi ever wanted fame? I thought it was mostly to screw over his dad really.
I think so. Dude just loves being praised and loved by everybody. I don't really remember if they really told it, but he always seemed to love being the center of attention.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Hmm I guess that does fit in with Skechi's characterisation, though now I can't quite recall how his revenge was supposed to work out. Was it that he'll let Shido rise to the top, use his own fame to expose him, or was Skechi just going to kill him once Shido rised to the top?
ShadowSoldier89
Member
it feels like the fame thing just kindve happened because of how his plans were working out, but its still seemed that he ended up reveling in it.
This feeling, we get it. When I finished the game I had the same problem the next morning, I just didn't know what to do within the timeframe I had allocated for it. Eventually I started working on my backlog,
before SMT HD is announced to also release on the PS4,
The former; Akechi's status as a bastard son was supposed to cause a backlash against Shido that would cause him to fold from his position. Given that Shido would remain in a political rut if Goro hadn't intervened; Goro overestimated his control of their relationship and the rest is history.
Honestly, I think his plan would've failed even if he could reveal his relationship with Shido to the public.
I could be off base, but I always looped it back to the tragedy. I'm not sure it was intentional, but I interpreted it as...
In his quest for vengeance, he unintentionally got the one thing he wanted all along, the thing that could cure him. Acceptance, adoration, success. He had it all in the palm of his hand, and eventually friends/family (in the Phantom Thieves), but he was so blinded by his vendetta that he never noticed he had the cure in the palm of his hand.
Once again, deeply tragic. I really think Akechi is just such a great character.
The only thing I didn't like about the whole Akechi situation is a) how the cast seemed almost ready to accept him again after his boss fight and b) his rushed off-screen death was kinda lame. I guess the first is just typical jrpg/anime protagonist overly forgiving syndrome.
Also I wish we could have seen more of him with Loki rather than just have him leave the story immediately after that reveal
Also I wish we could have seen more of him with Loki rather than just have him leave the story immediately after that reveal
I think the game directly talks about this. Yusuke says right afterwards that he could see himself eventually becoming something like Akechi if the rest of the team wasn't there to support him.
There are also hints showing that Akechi genuinely enjoys spending time with Joker and the Phantom Thieves. It's just that as you say, by then he was too corrupted to accept it.
There's also the other thing about how Akechi actually greatly underused the power of the wild card. Like Joker, he's capable of using multiple Personas, and had access to the Velvet Room. But he only used two personas, and only used them to corrupt and murder whoever Shido told him to. He could have done so much more with it, but he just didn't know any better. There was no one around him to tell him about things like doing holdups or negotiations with shadows, so he never did the things that Joker did right off the bat.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
Yeah I think it was more empathy than anything because the team even said themselves, they could've ended up just like him. They saw themselves in Akechi, which made it easier to forgive. Definitely similar to Naruto, who saw himself in Gaara and recognized that he could've been the same so despite Gaara having murdered a whole bunch of people senselessly, he forgave him and reached out.
As for the off-screen death, to be honest, that's the one part that left me guessing. My assumption is they bring him back in P5A or something, which could be why they did it? But not giving him a definitive end did feel a little abnormal. I was thinking at first he was who saved Ryuji but they don't seem to really hint that direction. Everything to me just keeps circling back to "they want to use him in the future."
My expectations about Akechi were colored a bit though, due to a fake spoiler I saw that said the final boss is on the cover of the game. So since it was fairly obvious Akechi would end up as the traitor I went through most of the game assuming Akechi would be the final boss and was somehow the mastermind behind everything lol
StarCreator
Member
Is it even certain Akechi was a wild card user at all? I had interpreted it during gameplay as Loki being able to disguise itself (which would be sort of fitting) and didn't come across the mention that he was purportedly a wild card user until reading this thread.
Iva Demilcol
Member
I'm going to start copy&pasting that long post about P5's ending. In the last 2 or 3 days I've seen many people who didn't get the ending spreading BS about it, and I'm so fucking lazy to write a good reply to that kind of posts.
Mediking
Member
True.. but you can't really blame newcomers to Persona and SMT for thinking the last half of the game is pretty random or unnecessary.
And I still say that forcing Akechi to be Shido's son is bad writing and is just too much packed into one character.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
Contrivances like that are something persona seems to really like though. Shido also being the guy harassing the woman at the beginning was a pretty big contrivance as well.
These stories seem to like this kind of circular resolution,
like the gas station attendant in 4.
I'm under the impression that he does have the wild card, since he was set up as Joker's adversary in the whole game between Igor and Yaldabaoth.
I think the SMT wiki says he does have it, though it could be wrong.
http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Goro_Akechi
Autoignition
Member
"I had already made up my mind about the character, and I didn't appreciate the game trying to give me additional context for his actions."
There are things about Akechi's story that were badly written and poorly executed, but I'm gonna put my foot down about this particular detail. It's obvious from the very first second that you meet him that he's not in a good way and wants the hell out.
Morgana is the one to call out Loki and Robin Hood as being separate personas (and he would be able to tell), and Futaba makes the connection that Akechi must be a wild card like Joker because of it. Lavenza later confirms.
The entire last dungeon is necessary to give the story a thematically appropriate conclusion. Ending the game at Shido's defeat doesn't resolve anything at all. Yaldabaoth's existence is neither random nor unnecessary, he's the logical result of an entire story that keeps screaming "Why won't anybody do anything about this awful situation even though everyone is suffering?" over and over again wherever you look.
StarCreator
Member
Are we going to spoil Persona 4 in this thread? If so, I need to bail out.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
yo ive been trying to be careful and fucked up there. sorry. re-edit it out of the quote, I'll fix my original
Mediking
Member
Yeah. Lol but I don't like it. There's a difference between a cool and eye-opening realization and just shoving stuff to a character for the sake of the story. I don't like that Akechi is Shido's son. I refuse to call that good writing.
Hey, I get it. I just don't get mad at the newcomers to Persona and SMT who were caught off guard by how SMT Persona 5 (and literally all the Persona games) gets at the end. MAN VS ???? is a staple.