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Berserk |OT| - Big men, bigger swords, OFF THE BOAT - Berserk #344 24/6/2016

I think Berserk was at its darkest from the end of Golden Arc (Eclipse) to the Conviction/Retribution arc plus a little bit after.
It needs that back. It now feels like all the characters are safe and everything will be peaches and brussel sprouts from now on. I hope the author's just giving us a false sense of security and something crazy is about to happen. The bloodhound can't just be some throwaway plot device.
 

double jump

you haven't lived until a random little kid ask you "how do you make love".
been reading like a mad man the last few days. while it took me awhile to get into the 20's made it worth it.
 

Riposte

Member
Farnese's character, after a certain point in the story, is probably more damaging to women than all the rapes.

Wyald's existence was unnecessary, looking back, and getting rid of him cuts out a lot of rape scenarios. Not a bad character, as he had his amusing moments, but awkwardly used/placed given what follows.

Not to speak ill of Berserk as it is now (though the delays are ridiculous and I pray it has just been a series of good reasons why we get 4~ chapters a year in midst of a side-plot arc), but the "Conviction" arc is pretty much Berserk at its most noteworthy. "Lost Children" to "Tower of Conviction" (and the short reunion arc) captures the black swordsman (Guts at his more ruthless, bloodthirsty, and all around hateful) era perfectly and makes the chapters before the Golden Age redundant. You could probably make the greatest dark fantasy movie ever made doing a LOTR-length movie out of those three-four arcs. Of course, you'd have to make a LOTR-length movie for the Golden Age before that. And who the hell would make a crazy hard R movie that long/expensive? Maybe during the era of the movies that inspired Berserk in the first place.

With that in mind, Berserk has three eras (as decided by imagery, tone, and themes) in my mind, starting with the Golden Age. Historical Fantasy, Dark Fantasy, and High Fantasy. This is even reflected in the plot where the world is acknowledged as becoming increasingly fantastical and Guts' temperament changing. Currently, Guts is an dangerous outsider to someone's else on-going fairytale.
 

UrbanRats

Member
I liked (so to speak) Wyald's character.
In a world of incredible pieces of shit, he was probably the worst and, in the end, he reveals himself as a weak, old, pathetic man, who probably got turned into an apostle simply because he was butt-hurt for being a short, powerless, dying man.

Also as i said before, i think Miura should've gone for an ending "chapter", after the Conviction one.

Basically making it <Golden Age -- post golden age -- conviction -- finale>.
 

Error

Jealous of the Glory that is Johnny Depp
Did they ever reach the Elves place? Last chapter I read was almost 2 years ago, going by Miura's constant breaks that probably 6 new chapters max.

edit: last chapter was released in january 13?? holy shit, this man and his fucking breaks.
 

tokkun

Member
Did they ever reach the Elves place? Last chapter I read was almost 2 years ago, going by Miura's constant breaks that probably 6 new chapters max.

edit: last chapter was released in january 13?? holy shit, this man and his fucking breaks.

No. However the name of the current arc suggests they will get there soon**********.
 
I liked (so to speak) Wyald's character.
In a world of incredible pieces of shit, he was probably the worst and, in the end, he reveals himself as a weak, old, pathetic man, who probably got turned into an apostle simply because he was butt-hurt for being a short, powerless, dying man.

I love the (named) apostles. Miura has a knack for hitting all the right notes with them.

Also as i said before, i think Miura should've gone for an ending "chapter", after the Conviction one.

Basically making it <Golden Age -- post golden age -- conviction -- finale>.

While I have a sense of your reasoning for this, I don't see how it would feel right without seriously altering the plot. The Godhand for example can't really exist alongside such an early conclusion. And the Hill of Swords! So many things are teased perfectly, I trust Miura to know the right way to delay gratification because there's a lot of stuff like that in the later episodes.
 

UrbanRats

Member
Well consider that the "Golden Age" chapter is super long.
The finale could've been just as long.

What i'm not digging is not only the recent D&D direction, but also the "party" that was going on since before (basically since they party up with the witch little girl).
IIRC, there's even a scene where she gives everyone specific gear, like it was a videogame or something.

I don't know, it feels like he wants to slowly shift it into something completely different.
 

Alric

Member
I like the arcs and constant changes to the characters.
Guts goes from a loner pushing himself to near death to meeting Griffith. Then slowly becoming part of a group and trusting in friendship. Then its all taken away and he spends time alone just pushing himself to the limits again not caring for anything but his bloodlust. Then he gets Caska back, slowly starts gaining a small family/group that he starts to rely on so he can push on.

Sure I can't wait for the story to progress further because it's been kinda stagnant with the whole water stuff going on but its nice seeing the stuff Griffith is putting together.
 

Riposte

Member
I love how things are being set up. Guts is going to be the ultimate anti-hero if things play out like I think they will. A stray hound biting at the hand of gods.
 
Guts wasn't supposed to be the Black Swordsman forever, I know the world of Berserk can be bleak, but it's hard to appreciate just how bleak it would become were that the case. So I think the tonal shift is necessary, and not as a compromise. It preserves the essential conflict, both in protagonist vs antagonist and within Guts's character. The pivotal turning point in recent episodes was realizing that he has a greater priority than vengeance and that he's not a mad dog. Any less would be undoing all of the character development he experienced in the Golden Age arc, and likely end in a grossly nihilistic and unsympathetic tragedy. Good doesn't have to triumph over evil, and Guts doesn't have to retain his humanity per se, but that's a conflict that has to dance on the line of ambiguity or possibility to achieve sufficient payoff.

I think the main argument people have against the recent episodes is about tone, which I can appreciate, but I also don't think it's a very substantial point. I mean tone is significant, but maintaining a tone for the sake of it isn't, at least I don't think so.

I also think the recent developments make sense in the broader sense of world building within the established narrative, for similar reasons as I tried to grok at earlier. It re-contextualizes what human agency is in the Berserk world. The Golden Age and the Black Swordsman stuff has people in the dark with massively powerful, ubiquitous malevolent forces obscured, at the fringes, or falling in the centre. It sets up a conflict (the David and Goliath thing), and gives you a glimpse of the costs or how punishing this world is, but it works primarily in a expository or world building sense, as a resting point it's a bit too static within one extreme, which I think presents a similar kind of dead end or paucity of potential.
 
I can't bring myself to read this. I fucking hate Griffith. Kinda weird that the creator of Berserk can make me hate a character. That good or bad? I know i'm not alone on this. Griffith hate should be pretty common right?
 
I can't bring myself to read this. I fucking hate Griffith. Kinda weird that the creator of Berserk can make me hate a character. That good or bad? I know i'm not alone on this. Griffith hate should be pretty common right?

Griffith is probably my favorite character, not for moral reasons obviously, but he's arguably the most complex character by a mile and he best represents the difficult moral themes present in Berserk to the point that he becomes a shorthand symbol for them. And I think that failing to recognize it represents a failed reading of the source material. That isn't mutually exclusive with hating him, but I do think a lot of people miss this and paint him as a common villain, when really he's both so much more and less than that to the point that the label of villain doesn't seem appropriate.

Griffith is a person that projects his ideals (his dream) on the world to the point of neglecting the apparent reality. This is an attitude capable of spectacular achievement as much as it can spectacularly exacerbate a failure or values or philosophy, so in the end he's both a remarkable triumph of human will and a remarkable failure of self awareness. In these respects he's like Kurtz from Heart of Darkness, only in this case it represents an even more profound corruption of integrity, and in the process I think makes the character even more pitiable in a sense. He flees his humanity to protect an idealized image of himself that is free of human vulnerability. In the process he becomes a being incomprehensibly devoid of all humanity. As a proposition that's something that no one can consent to! You come out of the other side of a dark tunnel as something completely different. No sane person would make that decision. We can't grasp the scope of cost of that decision, it is completely beyond understanding. That's part of the reason why this is a tragedy with Griffith as the tragic figure.

And that's the point of his character. When your gaze is affixed only on the horizon, you see nothing that is right in front of you. Griffith was so farsighted it was to the point of myopia. He always suppressed his humanity with his will to achieve remarkable things. That's what he was good at, and that was the tool he had that apparently worked for everything he seemed to care about. And suddenly maybe he cares about other things outside the scope of that tool, maybe he feels like he's being made slave to a strange new master that he doesn't know, and everything that he succeeded at before means less, and then his fears are made true and there's a loss of his dream, and the void left by both the failure of his dream and a failure of his human vulnerability to bear the desired fruit results in a pretty spectacular collapse. He's clearly weak in some sense that he needs such a crutch, but his weakness is exactly opposite Guts who lacks any sense of purpose to his existence at all. Guts in this situation clearly comes out as favorable, but even he's aware that he's just drifting through life. So they each kind of represent opposing perspectives, Griffith's is just built specifically for that kind of moral failure. But how he comes to it is incredibly easy to relate to, not because we have the same degree of will power, but we've all held a faulty premise like that, or we've all had our sights fixed on some far off thing and missed the bigger picture, if we were unfortunate enough to have that much will power then, who really knows what horrible thing we might do in service of it.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Gutts does have a purpose... it's to stab Griffith through his heart with the Dragonslayer (or whatever it takes to bring him down). That's really what changed after the Golden Age, Gutts actually had a definitive goal to achieve in life. He would die trying if he has to.
 
Gutts does have a purpose... it's to stab Griffith through his heart with the Dragonslayer. That's really what changed after the Golden Age, Gutts actually had a definitive goal to achieve in life. He would die trying if he has to.

Obviously he found a sense of purpose in killing Griffith, after the point of the plot I'm talking about. It's also questionable the degree to which they're analogues anyways since Guts is clearly motivated by vengeance.
 

TnK

Member
I thought I was the only one that found griffith really interesting. Good to know there are others.
 

Das Ace

Member
Griffith may be interesting, but he still part of the God hand.

Who, you know, work for the Idea of Evil, and everything.
 

vocab

Member
I love berserk and would like to get back into it. Damn It's expensive. It's good to see darkhorse still supporting the beast unlike mpd psycho...
 

Rur0ni

Member
Farnese's character, after a certain point in the story, is probably more damaging to women than all the rapes.

Wyald's existence was unnecessary, looking back, and getting rid of him cuts out a lot of rape scenarios. Not a bad character, as he had his amusing moments, but awkwardly used/placed given what follows.

Not to speak ill of Berserk as it is now (though the delays are ridiculous and I pray it has just been a series of good reasons why we get 4~ chapters a year in midst of a side-plot arc), but the "Conviction" arc is pretty much Berserk at its most noteworthy. "Lost Children" to "Tower of Conviction" (and the short reunion arc) captures the black swordsman (Guts at his more ruthless, bloodthirsty, and all around hateful) era perfectly and makes the chapters before the Golden Age redundant. You could probably make the greatest dark fantasy movie ever made doing a LOTR-length movie out of those three-four arcs. Of course, you'd have to make a LOTR-length movie for the Golden Age before that. And who the hell would make a crazy hard R movie that long/expensive? Maybe during the era of the movies that inspired Berserk in the first place.

With that in mind, Berserk has three eras (as decided by imagery, tone, and themes) in my mind, starting with the Golden Age. Historical Fantasy, Dark Fantasy, and High Fantasy. This is even reflected in the plot where the world is acknowledged as becoming increasingly fantastical and Guts' temperament changing. Currently, Guts is an dangerous outsider to someone's else on-going fairytale.
Just looked up these arcs. The conviction arc is definitely my favorite from memory.
 

Dahbomb

Member
I thought I was the only one that found griffith really interesting. Good to know there are others.
Griffith is an extremely compelling villain, there is no doubt about it. He was developed perfectly, you felt as much of a betrayal as the characters did. There is no other villain that I legitimately want dead as much as the main character and that is saying something.

I want Griffith to be within touching distance of his ultimate goal and right when he is almost there, Gutts comes in and chops his head off. Although more than likely I imagine that whole encounter will be much more climactic than that ending with both characters in death's embrace exchanging final words and reminiscing about better times after an epic clash of blood, death and destruction.
 
This is pretty cool.
berserkanddemonssouls.jpg
 

Tacitus_

Member
Wyald was fucking hilarious! Who can yell "This is my motto: enjoyment and excitement!" while raping the women of the house he butchered everyone else in. Oh and the women got dismembered and stuck on spears to serve as their banners after they were done.

Such a cheerful fellow.
 

UrbanRats

Member
Griffith is probably my favorite character, not for moral reasons obviously, but he's arguably the most complex character by a mile and he best represents the difficult moral themes present in Berserk to the point that he becomes a shorthand symbol for them. And I think that failing to recognize it represents a failed reading of the source material. That isn't mutually exclusive with hating him, but I do think a lot of people miss this and paint him as a common villain, when really he's both so much more and less than that to the point that the label of villain doesn't seem appropriate.

Griffith is a person that projects his ideals (his dream) on the world to the point of neglecting the apparent reality. This is an attitude capable of spectacular achievement as much as it can spectacularly exacerbate a failure or values or philosophy, so in the end he's both a remarkable triumph of human will and a remarkable failure of self awareness. In these respects he's like Kurtz from Heart of Darkness, only in this case it represents an even more profound corruption of integrity, and in the process I think makes the character even more pitiable in a sense. He flees his humanity to protect an idealized image of himself that is free of human vulnerability. In the process he becomes a being incomprehensibly devoid of all humanity. As a proposition that's something that no one can consent to! You come out of the other side of a dark tunnel as something completely different. No sane person would make that decision. We can't grasp the scope of cost of that decision, it is completely beyond understanding. That's part of the reason why this is a tragedy with Griffith as the tragic figure.

And that's the point of his character. When your gaze is affixed only on the horizon, you see nothing that is right in front of you. Griffith was so farsighted it was to the point of myopia. He always suppressed his humanity with his will to achieve remarkable things. That's what he was good at, and that was the tool he had that apparently worked for everything he seemed to care about. And suddenly maybe he cares about other things outside the scope of that tool, maybe he feels like he's being made slave to a strange new master that he doesn't know, and everything that he succeeded at before means less, and then his fears are made true and there's a loss of his dream, and the void left by both the failure of his dream and a failure of his human vulnerability to bear the desired fruit results in a pretty spectacular collapse. He's clearly weak in some sense that he needs such a crutch, but his weakness is exactly opposite Guts who lacks any sense of purpose to his existence at all. Guts in this situation clearly comes out as favorable, but even he's aware that he's just drifting through life. So they each kind of represent opposing perspectives, Griffith's is just built specifically for that kind of moral failure. But how he comes to it is incredibly easy to relate to, not because we have the same degree of will power, but we've all held a faulty premise like that, or we've all had our sights fixed on some far off thing and missed the bigger picture, if we were unfortunate enough to have that much will power then, who really knows what horrible thing we might do in service of it.

Well, to be honest i don't disagree with the notion of Guts having to complete his arc outside of the nihilistic need for vengeance, after all his big life motivation from the Golden Age wasn't vengeance at all, it was finding something to drive him, something like Griffith had (the flames analogies and all that) so i'm not opposed to that at all.
However that doesn't imply any particular direction, you could tackle that problem in countless different ways.

The way Miura did it, i'm not fond of, sometimes it feels like i'm not even reading a manga set in the same world we've been in all along, and i just wait in fear, for the moment where they'll be crossing a tall trees forest and encounter high Elfs, or go through a mine and meet up with some Dwarfs miners or some similar shit.

I feel like what is taking place is much more than a tonal shift for the character, and more of a slow overhaul of the whole thing.
 
Griffith may be interesting, but he still part of the God hand.

Who, you know, work for the Idea of Evil, and everything.

Griffith and Femto aren't exactly the same being. If you're discussing the moral significance of the character it only makes sense to discuss everything leading up to and including the sacrifice, because all we know about Femto is that he is a being completely devoid of humanity, which doesn't locate him within any conventional moral framework.
 
Well, to be honest i don't disagree with the notion of Guts having to complete his arc outside of the nihilistic need for vengeance, after all his big life motivation from the Golden Age wasn't vengeance at all, it was finding something to drive him, something like Griffith had (the flames analogies and all that) so i'm not opposed to that at all.
However that doesn't imply any particular direction, you could tackle that problem in countless different ways.

The way Miura did it, i'm not fond of, sometimes it feels like i'm not even reading a manga set in the same world we've been in all along, and i just wait in fear, for the moment where they'll be crossing a tall trees forest and encounter high Elfs, or go through a mine and meet up with some Dwarfs miners or some similar shit.

I feel like what is taking place is much more than a tonal shift for the character, and more of a slow overhaul of the whole thing.

I think something like that is necessary to flesh out the world as having more varied powers than just some impossibly vast evil will. I also think that Miura's unique spin feels fresh and organic to the world he established. That scene immediately after the initial merging of the worlds of a hydra devouring a unicorn says it all, I think. Berserk ostensibly holds to some kind of good/evil dichotomy, but it doesn't work forever in the way it was established before.
 

Tacitus_

Member
If there will be elves and dwarves, they're going to be from the nastier side of the mythology. Dwarves will probably spend their days kidnapping human children and boiling them in a pot while elves harass caravans and woodsmen with arrows launched from trees.
 

TnK

Member
Griffith is an extremely compelling villain, there is no doubt about it. He was developed perfectly, you felt as much of a betrayal as the characters did. There is no other villain that I legitimately want dead as much as the main character and that is saying something.

I want Griffith to be within touching distance of his ultimate goal and right when he is almost there, Gutts comes in and chops his head off. Although more than likely I imagine that whole encounter will be much more climactic than that ending with both characters in death's embrace exchanging final words and reminiscing about better times after an epic clash of blood, death and destruction.
I sometimes feel that we will not get this ending, and instead Guts will join Griffith in destroying the idea of evil. Don't know why. Maybe Griffith has other plans in mind?

This is pretty cool.
berserkanddemonssouls.jpg
First thing that crossed my mind when looking at Demon's Souls was "wow this REALLY looks like berserk", lol.
Well, to be honest i don't disagree with the notion of Guts having to complete his arc outside of the nihilistic need for vengeance, after all his big life motivation from the Golden Age wasn't vengeance at all, it was finding something to drive him, something like Griffith had (the flames analogies and all that) so i'm not opposed to that at all.
However that doesn't imply any particular direction, you could tackle that problem in countless different ways.

The way Miura did it, i'm not fond of, sometimes it feels like i'm not even reading a manga set in the same world we've been in all along, and i just wait in fear, for the moment where they'll be crossing a tall trees forest and encounter high Elfs, or go through a mine and meet up with some Dwarfs miners or some similar shit.

I feel like what is taking place is much more than a tonal shift for the character, and more of a slow overhaul of the whole thing.
Nooo, I don't want to see that happening. Unless, like mentioned here, they handle it like they handled the trolls.

Also, can someone please explain to me the exact differences between High, Low, and Dark fantasies? Because I sometimes see the genres overlap, and similar themes appear in them.
 

Riposte

Member
I don't even see Griffith or the Godhand as villains. Antagonists, sure. The latter are forces of destiny (what Guts has fought since his birth) that humanity has brought upon itself if anything, while the former is only following/followed his destiny to a predetermined self-destructive extent. I'm too tired right now to express this well, but Griffith could only be Griffith; he was made this way, from his genes to everything he has learned in life, all guided by fate. Moreover, people want (and are willing to sacrifice for) Griffith, someone of exorbitant greatness, to exist. It only makes sense that in the end the Band of the Hawk would be consumed, as their fires were even shown to be ultimately parts of his larger flame. It just so happened that when Griffith hit his similarly exorbitant nadir, this had to become literally true. What you saw at the eclipse, perhaps through some manipulation, was him fully appreciating and then accepting his fate (which is in some aspects a terribly tragic one - the very predetermined force that made him great is what destroyed him, there is no separating the two. You can see causality talked about later at play in the Golden Age). He doesn't work under traditional notions of good and evil.

To just hate him misses the better half of the Golden Age tragedy.

EDIT: I predict Griffith (who wants to believe his own hype) vs Godhand vs Guts/Skullknight, with Guts being the only one coming out alive. A schism in the Godhand will be the only way he'll stand a chance.
 

double jump

you haven't lived until a random little kid ask you "how do you make love".
unfortunately I've caught up today. reading some of these theories are interesting. as much as I hate Griffith I,m starting to think the rape of casca might have been more than an act of simple evil. the child thing has save her one to many times for it to be coincidence. I don't know but I can't believe we won't see another chapter till next year.
 

Dahbomb

Member
I sometimes feel that we will not get this ending, and instead Guts will join Griffith in destroying the idea of evil. Don't know why. Maybe Griffith has other plans in mind?
Gutts joining Griffith? Damn man that would be a cold day in hell if that ever happens again. Like the only way I can see this happening is that somehow Caska's life is in danger and Gutts need some help to get her back/save her and he forms a temporary alliance with Griffith (sort of like what he did with Zodd to take on a much more powerful foe).

Even in this scenario I can't imagine any point in time where Gutts doesn't want to end Griffith. Maybe the best ending ever is Gutts forgiving Griffith and not be possessed by his rage/quest for vengeance however this is still very unlikely.
 
I think Femto raping Casca is exactly what it looked like: him exerting his power. I don't think regular morality applies to the Godhand well at all, because they represent a theoretical/realistically improbable scenario where a human being is corrupted entirely. Their sense of ethics probably extends no farther than the Idea's request in the lost episode to "Do what you will". Good and evil as a dichotomy likely doesn't touch them at all, for better or worse.

Griffith can't be forgiven, because the Griffith we know no longer exists. I guess the person that used to exist can be forgiven retroactively, and that's valid and maybe even appropriate, but that doesn't leave Femto anywhere and he still has to be taken care of. Maybe the motivation doesn't have to be vengeance though, because obviously if Griffith doesn't exist then vengeance is a dead end as well.
 
Maybe the motivation doesn't have to be vengeance though, because obviously if Griffith doesn't exist then vengeance is a dead end as well.

In a way, Griffith still exists, just the side of him that was pure ambition. Recall that Ubik told the Slug Count that those who become apostles basically fill the broken parts of their heart with evil. The Godhand are probably no exception, just the most extreme form of that like you said.

Guts, Griffith's closest friend, as well as the rest of the Band of the Hawk was what he substituted for that will of evil. And all that is left was the drive to claim his own kingdom.
 

Veelk

Banned
Becoming Femto removed his capacity for empathy, but he's otherwise still Griffith. And even if he wasn't....the idea of evil is caused by people wanting a source for why evil exists in the world. Once it realized that, it created the godhand, which are its servants and they create or emphasize evil in the world so that more people will wonder why they are suffering, which means the idea of evil is sustained. However, the idea of evil lets them do as they will, so it's not controlling them. But it does take away their empathy, to ensure that no matter what they do, it's evil. So what happens is that the idea of evil removes any capacity for good that the person has so that it will commit the greatest evil possible without any command from the idea of evil itself.

That doesn't sound like regular morality not applying to them to me. Rather, it sounds more like the idea of evil takes a person, and puts them on the farthest end of evil on a regular morality scale as is possible. I mean, you could argue that without the ability to choose good, they may not be responsible for their evil, but that just means they are an evil tool rather than person.
 

Dahbomb

Member
That's like trying to spin the moral actions of a sociopath. They lack empathy and a general lack of understanding of normal human morality, code and rules.

Not saying that Griffith is a sociopath per se but if we are going to classify God Hands as just lacking empathy then that's like saying they are a form of sociopaths.
 
In a way, Griffith still exists, just the side of him that was pure ambition. Recall that Ubik told the Slug Count that those who become apostles basically fill the broken parts of their heart with evil. The Godhand are probably no exception, just the most extreme form of that like you said.

Guts, Griffith's closest friend, as well as the rest of the Band of the Hawk was what he substituted for that will of evil. And all that is left was the drive to claim his own kingdom.

Obviously the two beings are closely related, but you wouldn't call a human being subtracted their humanity the same person. It's apparent enough that the Griffith we knew is gone, that was my point. Vengeance only really makes sense (if at all) for beings that are capable of feeling remorse. Though Guts likely feels like it's necessary, and at the present moment him having the view that it is necessary is likely itself necessary, can you really see him getting anything out of it?

Becoming Femto removed his capacity for empathy, but he's otherwise still Griffith. And even if he wasn't....the idea of evil is caused by people wanting a source for why evil exists in the world. Once it realized that, it created the godhand, which are its servants and they create or emphasize evil in the world so that more people will wonder why they are suffering, which means the idea of evil is sustained. However, the idea of evil lets them do as they will, so it's not controlling them. But it does take away their empathy, like it did with griffith. So what happens is that the idea of evil removes any capacity for good that the person has so that it will commit the greatest evil possible without any command from the idea of evil itself.

That doesn't sound like regular morality not applying to them to me. Rather, it sounds more like the idea of evil takes a person, and puts them on the farthest end of evil on a regular morality scale as is possible. I mean, you could argue that without the ability to choose good, they may not be responsible for their evil, but that just means they are an evil tool rather than person.

Morality is itself a direct product of both empathy and agency, though. Seriously, you can essentially reduce it to those two factors alone. If you remove both then they're no more evil than a natural disaster. They may still have agency, but empathy would be the factor that informs moral agency.

I think the entire reason they're 'evil' is because you're taking an ego and separating it from any moral framework. An ego placed in such a situation without the controlling influences will incline towards what we see as 'evil'. It's a paradox, but they can be external to any moral framework (in terms of intent, perspective, etc) and still for all of our purposes be 'evil'.
 

K.Sabot

Member
To this day I regret reading this.

And Game of Thrones.

And Vagabond.

We should make a Vagabond thread too so I can air my grievances there.
 
Obviously the two beings are closely related, but you wouldn't call a human being subtracted their humanity the same person. It's apparent enough that the Griffith we knew is gone, that was my point. Vengeance only really makes sense (if at all) for beings that are capable of feeling remorse. Though Guts likely feels like it's necessary, and at the present moment him having the view that it is necessary is likely itself necessary, can you really see him getting anything out of it?

You're right in that Griffith and Femto/Beautiful Griffith aren't the same being. However, it's not as though Guts doesn't have reason to take down Femto/Neo Griffith. After all, right after his conception, Femto had his way with Caska and forced Guts to watch. Then he trashed-talked Guts after the Slug Count summoned him. Then Griffith-of-the-Flowing-Locks metaphorically spat on the graves of the deceased Band of the Hawk members while siccing Zodd on Guts.
 
You're right in that Griffith and Femto/Beautiful Griffith aren't the same being. However, it's not as though Guts doesn't have reason to take down Femto/Neo Griffith. After all, right after his conception, Femto had his way with Caska and forced Guts to watch. Then he trashed-talked Guts after the Slug Count summoned him. Then Griffith-of-the-Flowing-Locks metaphorically spat on the graves of the deceased Band of the Hawk members while siccing Zodd on Guts.

My entire point is that people have to investigate their reasoning for vengeance, they wouldn't do it unless they saw themselves gaining something. Closure, or recognition from the other party, or even the satisfaction of seeing him die. With Griffith what he is now, what can he possibly gain? Guts can maybe stop him, and he should try, maybe he can seek justice (which is different than vengeance) but with what Griffith is, he's like a dead end incapable of really giving him anything he could possibly want. That kind of contributes to the tragedy somewhat.
 
With Griffith what he is now, what can he possibly gain?

I think it's vaaaaaguely implied that Guts also seeks to hunt down Super Griffith (and the rest of the Godhand) in order to save himself from the sleepless nights caused by the brand of sacrifice and possibly the imminent fate of being consigned to the Abyss upon death.
 
I think it's vaaaaaguely implied that Guts also seeks to hunt down Super Griffith (and the rest of the Godhand) in order to save himself from the sleepless nights caused by the brand of sacrifice and possibly the imminent fate of being consigned to the Abyss upon death.

Uh yeah, and that's clearly different than vengeance or punishment, so what is your point?
 
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