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Kinect creators say technology supports only two players at a time
- Thread starter Ignis Fatuus
- Start date
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
I can't think of anything so blatantly misleading as the Kinect marketing campaign, though. There are really two Kinects--the one that exists in the promotional videos and the one that exists in reality. People who buy the latter are going to realize the discrepancy and it won't be pretty.MegaKungFuRadio said:
The Faceless Master
Member
the 360 controller doesn't work standing up?WasteLand Soldier said:
jamesinclair
Banned
Im starting to feel bad for MS. Thats pretty amazing isnt it, feeling bad for a multibillion dollar corporation?
Did nobody think for a second "hm, maybe it would be best to delay this for one year, get all the issues worked out, and launch it as standard for the xbox 720?"
Did nobody think for a second "hm, maybe it would be best to delay this for one year, get all the issues worked out, and launch it as standard for the xbox 720?"
Magnus said:
A lot of this feels like initial Wii impressions.
Take Wii Sports for instance. Yes we have a Baseball game, but all you can do in it is swing and pitch. Not only that but the best method of pitching is just flicking your wrist quickly and not doing a full pitching motion, and as a batter to hit the ball is all about timing and not actually swinging toward the direction of the ball. You cannot control any player outside of the pitcher or batter. I believe I argued at the time that this was actually a less complex and realistic baseball game then that of Baseball for the NES.
The success of Move and Kinect is all going to come down to how the two products are able to market themselves with mainstream media. And I mean Oprah, Late night talk shows, and cable news. These obvious flaws that us gamers are turned off by, may not be relevant at all when it comes down to the mainstream media.
spiderman123
Member
MegaKungFuRadio said:
i'm one of those sad sons of a bitches unfortunately. Just wondering about the future patches for Kinect. If any can someone mention this or point me to the right direction.?!
WasteLand Soldier said:
What the fuck are you even saying anymore.
Here lets break it down.
It has been confirmed that Kinect can't be played while sitting, but this does not matter in this thread.
Now it has come out that 4 people can't play at the same time, yet you keep trying to combo it with the first fact.
Now if you would stop for amoment you would realize no one is arguing about the combo but the fact alone that the fact that Kinect can not do 4 players at a time could be a problem for the casual market.
More so we have proof, considering that Nintendo who is leadnig in the motion and casual space top games almost everytime have this very functionality that you are trying to say isn't important.
More so the waggle/tilt=Button Press does not work in this argument. The whole reason for Wii/Move/Kinects existince is based on the idea that Casuals don't like the controllers so you can not say that it is okay and just map it to the controller because in doing so you are no longer presenting as the Big three have come to view them the casual market.
What is so hard to understand about this?
The Faceless Master
Member
yeah, this is eerily reminiscent of the PS3 that had Dual HDMI and a 3 Port Gigabit Ethernet hub... and then it came out overpriced and under-featured...we know how long it took for Sony to rebuild from that... Kinect has it's work cut out for it...Ignis Fatuus said:
Skiesofwonder
Walruses, camels, bears, rabbits, tigers and badgers.
WasteLand Soldier said:
I get the point you are trying to make and theoretically Kinect could have people switch in and out 2 at a time and it won't be too big of a deal, but I suggest you stop with this argument of "no 4-player active wii games" right now because obviously you are uninformed when it comes to this subject.
Off the top of my head:
Wii Sports (Tennis)
Wii Sports Resort (Rowboat, bicycling)
Wii Music
Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games
Raving Rabbid Party Games
Carnival Games
Just Dance
We Ski (and Snowboard)
Deca Sports
Rock Band
Grand Slam Tennis
Wario Ware: Smooth Moves
EA Playground
This are all popular titles with 4-player simultaneous play and are very active games.... and trust me, their are a TON more titles that I can't think of or don't even know about (god so much junk is released for Wii lately...).
By the way people, Wii PLAY IS 2 PLAYERS ONLY. Have no idea what has you people under the impression that you could play 4 players on that game (i wish you could though).
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
The sitting issue is a software problem so it will be patched eventually, though none of the games currently out there are being designed to support sitting (that sounds rather silly now that I type it out). The 2 player only issue seems to be a straight up technical limitation so don't expect that to be fixed ever.spiderman123 said:
spiderman123
Member
Ignis Fatuus said:
will they make a patch for older games?
Hydrargyrus
Member
Looks like it needs, at least, more than a year of improvement.
All the only-stand playing, lag and this... I don't know, but doesn't seem to be fixed for the releasing date
All the only-stand playing, lag and this... I don't know, but doesn't seem to be fixed for the releasing date
A Twisty Fluken
Member
Hype gets you the initial sales. What turned the Wii and its biggest hits into the juggernaut that MS is clearly going for was the word of mouth that comes after. Nintendo got me to bite on day 1, but it was taking it home at Thanksgiving and exposing my family and friends to the glory that really got them going.MegaKungFuRadio said:
If Kinect gives people that level of joy, then hey, more power to them.
Both the issue of playing while sitting and the 2 player limitation stem from the fact that (probably) all Kinect games use full-body tracking exclusively, meaning that they can (and have to) track a person's whoe body, even though some of the games could work by tracking only some parts.
What does it mean? On the one hand, it means that both issues can be fixed in software, except maybe for those games which would require full-body tracking for up to 4 people (that would probably require too much processing power and/or bandwidth, i don't know for sure though). On the other hand, only having to deal with one kind type of input (full-body animation) makes it easier for developers; also, tracking the entire body is probably the only way to have an accurate model for the movements.
Unless Microsoft manages to provide improved development libraries which provide developers with more flexible ways to do the tracking without significant processing overhead, it will be up to the developers themselves to devise different tracking techniques (provided they actually can work at such a low level with Kinect).
Of course my knowledge of the device is limited, but technical issues like these are certainly hard to overcome in general; whether Microsoft have already managed to solve them (or are planning to do so within a few months), or they're hoping their customers will overlook them, I don't know.
What does it mean? On the one hand, it means that both issues can be fixed in software, except maybe for those games which would require full-body tracking for up to 4 people (that would probably require too much processing power and/or bandwidth, i don't know for sure though). On the other hand, only having to deal with one kind type of input (full-body animation) makes it easier for developers; also, tracking the entire body is probably the only way to have an accurate model for the movements.
Unless Microsoft manages to provide improved development libraries which provide developers with more flexible ways to do the tracking without significant processing overhead, it will be up to the developers themselves to devise different tracking techniques (provided they actually can work at such a low level with Kinect).
Of course my knowledge of the device is limited, but technical issues like these are certainly hard to overcome in general; whether Microsoft have already managed to solve them (or are planning to do so within a few months), or they're hoping their customers will overlook them, I don't know.
WasteLand Soldier said:
You're treating Kinect games requiring people to stand as some sort of intentional design decision "to make play easier" that's part of the purpose and appeal of the product, so the 2-player limitation for Kinect really only matters when compared to Wii games where people should be standing in the first place?
I think that's where might the disconnect might be coming from - a lot of people in this thread are treating the recent "standing required" news as a limitation (that Microsoft did not want to advertise or admit to) that hampers the possible applications of the tech. Also, just because a game is "casual" doesn't mean its appeal comes from being "off the couch" - there are plenty of "casual" games that people enjoy sitting down.
Now, the "2-players only" news is being treated as another, separate limitation that limits the "casual" appeal, for families who want to play together or for parties.
boiled goose
good with gravy
spiderman123 said:
what does that have to do with anything?
The whole point of the discussion is that knect (and apparently move) have some pretty nasty and annoying restrictions that are pretty much needed for party and multiplayer games. (in essence, some of the major attractions to casual gamers)
WasteLand Soldier said:
people are calling you out because what you are doing is damage control. people have mentioned why these limitations are bad, and you keep ignoring them. only a fraction of wii games support 4 player simultaenous motion controlled multiplyer, yet many of these few games are the big sellers on the wii and in many cases the system movers and killer apps.
kinect:
cant have 4 player multi with kinect
cant play kinect sitting down. (basically a huge restriction for local multiplayer core games)
move:
can play sitting down or standing up
can play with 4 move main controllers
can only play with 2 move+subcontrollers (basically no mario kart wii, smash, or splitscreen FPS type experiences)
these are restrictions. in some ways, these are restrictions that go against the reasons that made wii succesful, which is why people are complaining.
MegaKungFuRadio
Member
spiderman123 said:
Well, you're here, so it's not like you'll see videos of groups of people playing at the same time sitting down and think that's the sort of thing you can expect when you take it home. I'm sure you are excited about Kinect because it is a neat piece of technology, which despite the reports coming out, I still think it is. It's just that after the Balance Board, and to a lesser extent, the Wii itself, I personally feel like I need a solid software library to be in place before buying into the technology.
spiderman123
Member
A Twisty Fluken said:
but loook at what they are aiming at though most commericals even fucking kinectmals is made for children and families. They are aiming mainly at the inexperienced gamer or gaming forum user etc. They mainly looking for ppl who have no idea what they are in for especially in the long run if most of these issues aren't patched.
You have to seriously wonder about the software dryspell of Kinect as well.
They'll launch with their 15 casual games or whatever.
Then what?
What third party in their right mind would develop something exclusively for this -- because that's almost exactly what you have to do in order to develop for this thing at all.
What's worse is you can't make it an optional control scheme in hardcore games, unlike the Move controller, so that will severely limit the software this is compatible with. Move should be able to be integrated into a wide variety of games as options on a consistent basis.
The device could do okay out of the gate, but after the holiday hype dies down what is going to happen to Kinect? I can't imagine there being much software support for it outside of dance and fitness games. The backlash and letdown after the initial launch window is going to be enormous.
They'll launch with their 15 casual games or whatever.
Then what?
What third party in their right mind would develop something exclusively for this -- because that's almost exactly what you have to do in order to develop for this thing at all.
What's worse is you can't make it an optional control scheme in hardcore games, unlike the Move controller, so that will severely limit the software this is compatible with. Move should be able to be integrated into a wide variety of games as options on a consistent basis.
The device could do okay out of the gate, but after the holiday hype dies down what is going to happen to Kinect? I can't imagine there being much software support for it outside of dance and fitness games. The backlash and letdown after the initial launch window is going to be enormous.
Azure Dream
Member
Nuclear Winter said:
For all the mocking that got (serious and not), right at the end of the conference they raised about five or so active bays running Zelda in front of the stage, there's a real chance one of those Remotes was causing channel noise.
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
WasteLand Soldier said:
Amongst the other things that you got wrong, you have missed something else that Kinect can't do - at least with the current launch games that we have seen.
Move around the game world without being on rails.
That makes it a lot more than 0.5% that Kinect can't do. A lot more. Something way over 50% and probably more than that.
jump_button
Banned
:lol what next you have to have a clean room and a white background only?
on and to any fanboy trying to toll about zelda give me a slip up over fake vids
anyday, MS clean to be trying to hide things
on and to any fanboy trying to toll about zelda give me a slip up over fake vids
anyday, MS clean to be trying to hide things
The Faceless Master
Member
is it really a software problem though? maybe the 3D Camera hardware just isn't good enough to read enough information from the scene so there is insufficient data to determine that your legs are right in front of the sofa...Ignis Fatuus said:
boiled goose
good with gravy
MegaKungFuRadio said:
probably not true for casual audience kinect is trying to entice.
Wii games sell through word of mouth and trying out at friends/families house.
GoldenEye 007
Member
Haha. Fantastic try. But we both know the real deal as people got their hands on it during the show.Nuclear Winter said:
spiderman123 said:
Oh noone has a problem with that. The only thing actually happening here is people are stating that Kinect is capped at 2 players for motion controlled gaming, and Wii is not.
The other guy is trying to find a way to spin that, but those are indeed apparently the facts. Thats the only thing being discussed here, heck look at the thread title. The Wii was only brought into this as a terrible attempt for him to convince us that its 'all the same thing really'.
WasteLand Soldier
Banned
there's no damage to control because there's no damage done. nevermind. you guys dont have to understand. maybe i am explaining it wrong. all that matters is price. ms launches at 99 or less it'll be able to compete fine with wii and move even with its "limitations" as you guys put it, launch at 150 and MS deserves to have it flop. and it wouldnt be because of these so called limitations but because of price.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
I highly doubt it but that'd be a wonderful question to ask Microsoft.spiderman123 said:
Skiesofwonder said:
All of these games require 4 controllers though. The 360 can recognize 4 controllers at will, Kinect itself though cannot distinguish 4 different humans not using controllers. Neither can the Wii or PS3 for that matter.
And I do get how that is a problem, specifically because they are focusing so much on the whole no controller aspect of the system. But games like Rock Band are not played with Wii Motes to begin with, so lets be fair when debating this.
MegaKungFuRadio
Member
Hero said:
I respectfully disagree. For one, they're not going to advertise "Only supports 2 players," so it's up to the press to point that out. The gaming press didn't catch this until after E3 because they didn't think to ask or whatever. I just don't see the mainstream press covering this and saying, "Buyer beware: This only supports 2 players at a time." Maybe I'm wrong and mainstream will catch it because that's what they care about, but that's not what I believe will happen.
WasteLand Soldier
Banned
C4Lukins said:
fuck. thank you.
MegaKungFuRadio said:
whats the most played game in wii sports? what basically sold the thing to elderly people world wide and launched the wii into the heavens? not smash, not rabbids, not anything that requires 4 players sitting down OR playing at the same time but BOWLING. where you take turns.
Nintendo... the leaders in casual gaming...
Wii sports & Resort... 4
Super Mario Bros Wii... 4
Mario Super Sluggers... 4
Mario Kart Wii.... 4
Mario Part 8... 4
Super Mario Galaxy... 2
Legend Of Zelda...1
List ranges from Hardcore to Casual.
The ability to have at least 4 players on non-narrative pro-multiplayer games has been a 100% standard for a long time. Until now apparently.
Wii sports & Resort... 4
Super Mario Bros Wii... 4
Mario Super Sluggers... 4
Mario Kart Wii.... 4
Mario Part 8... 4
Super Mario Galaxy... 2
Legend Of Zelda...1
List ranges from Hardcore to Casual.
The ability to have at least 4 players on non-narrative pro-multiplayer games has been a 100% standard for a long time. Until now apparently.
Night_Trekker
Member
Redbeard said:
This is a very good point I hadn't considered. Move can get port-ups from the Wii, and the Wii can get port-downs from Move, but it's not going to be that simple to port to or from Kinect.
Or maybe I'm wrong and they could just come up with some equivalent Kinect gestures. Unless the port is a multiplayer game. Then they could be in trouble :lol
Man, I can't believe what a disaster this seems to be so far. I hope they get the kinks worked out.
MegaKungFuRadio
Member
WasteLand Soldier said:
Dude, calm down, I'm not even talking to you, or about that topic for that matter.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
You are truly clueless.WasteLand Soldier said:
Unidentified
Member
There might have been an extra-bit of info posted afterwards that clarifies things. But nothing in the original article mentioned Kinect specifically having two players max in a game.
The only mention about the processing limit was this: "and the computer will see all of them and can even recognize them as human shapes. But it can only run calculations on two people at a time, just because the processing power required to track all of the body's locations and movements is so great."
In the first place, it does not specify what "the computer" is. We know that with Kinect specifically (which may or may not apply to 'raw tech' the company is referring to), there have been some modifications since its announcement. Such as the removal of the on-board processor(s) and relying more on the 360's own processing power. Microsoft has stated before the hardware could change before it is shipped. So that could very well alter things.
Beyond that, it is unclear how much of the software side of things factors into this. Since Natal was first revealed, Microsoft (and affiliates) have gone on about how the amazing part of tech is the software aspect such as here or here. Of course, it could be the limit is on a lower level than that.
No time frame was given on the two-player processing limit either. Some games might be able to allow four-players depending on the type of game and how information is stored.
Ultimately, I don't think there is any definite statement about Kinect in that article. At the same time, there hasn't been any game shown so far with more than two people playing simultaneously. Though the Kinect Adventure descriptions I've read varies between two and four player support (which may or may not be simultaneous play). I would wait till Microsoft actually comments on it.
The only mention about the processing limit was this: "and the computer will see all of them and can even recognize them as human shapes. But it can only run calculations on two people at a time, just because the processing power required to track all of the body's locations and movements is so great."
In the first place, it does not specify what "the computer" is. We know that with Kinect specifically (which may or may not apply to 'raw tech' the company is referring to), there have been some modifications since its announcement. Such as the removal of the on-board processor(s) and relying more on the 360's own processing power. Microsoft has stated before the hardware could change before it is shipped. So that could very well alter things.
Beyond that, it is unclear how much of the software side of things factors into this. Since Natal was first revealed, Microsoft (and affiliates) have gone on about how the amazing part of tech is the software aspect such as here or here. Of course, it could be the limit is on a lower level than that.
No time frame was given on the two-player processing limit either. Some games might be able to allow four-players depending on the type of game and how information is stored.
Ultimately, I don't think there is any definite statement about Kinect in that article. At the same time, there hasn't been any game shown so far with more than two people playing simultaneously. Though the Kinect Adventure descriptions I've read varies between two and four player support (which may or may not be simultaneous play). I would wait till Microsoft actually comments on it.
DeathNote said:
And something that is really important about this list is that Zelda will sell less then every game on that list bar maybe one. The higher the count of characters the more Wii games tend to sell. Smash, Mario Kart, and Mario Party 8 all show this. Truly the last two as they crush everything on this list that isn't a Wii___ game.
MegaKungFuRadio said:
While the gaming press failed to overlook this inquiry during the one time of year where doing their job is actually important, from now until its launch date this will most likely be highlighted. And I'm pretty sure the bullshit videos they've been using won't fly for actual TV or store ads since people won't be able to play sitting down or more than two at a time.
I like how there's a lot of people here defending Microsoft/Kinect and treating it as if they are on equal ground or have any sort of advantage. They are starting off with 0 units of Kinect sold. They are the ones that have to prove to consumers that they should go out and spend 100 dollars on top of their system purchase to get this device. Having this much negative press going for it only a week after E3 is not good for them at all.
The Faceless Master
Member
i can't see how you get that the Kinect *is* a controller. It's been shown in (obviously staged now) videos to support 4 people playing.C4Lukins said:
and why would you even call out Rock Band when there were like 15 games named that use the Wii Remote?