Agreed on other chars alluding to him having done something bad didn't make sense. Every tape dedicated to someone else was made because they fucked her over, he would logically think his tape would follow the same pattern.
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any fellow kids watching this new Netflix show "13 reasons why"?
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Nah, it was her way of apologizing.
Still need to catch up on Riverdale, but Reggie hasnt been used much as of ep 4 i think. Gonna be interesting seeing who they get.
plasmawave
Banned
Yes. It's a slog early on.
sixteen-bit
Member
or he could be casted in something else
They also doesn't want him to listen to the tapes so it's best to scare him into giving up listening to them.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Ok, I have a question (complete series spoiler).
What do you guys think ? Is this something detailed more in the book ?
did Alex really shoot himself in the head, attempt suicide, or was it staged ? in an earlier episode you see the camera guy hang pictures of everyone but then he specifically takes off Alex's picture and the ending of the series shows how he has a bunch of guns at his disposal ..
so it's either 1. him preparing for shooting up his school 2. hiding 'evidence' ?
so it's either 1. him preparing for shooting up his school 2. hiding 'evidence' ?
What do you guys think ? Is this something detailed more in the book ?
He takes the picture down after a scene showing Alex being kind to him. It implies he took him off the hit list.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Ok, that makes a lot more sense than my theory.
Yeah. We might see his actions over the series as being too passive, but that was the point of Clay. He was a shy, awkward guy that changed with time to be more proactive. He could've defended Hannah at the dance, but for him, it was very difficult. He even tells Jeff soon after how he didnt care about rumors, but couldnt say it at the time and Hannah was gone by them.
Clay messed up speaking with her about the photo(but he admits it was out of jealousy) though. Even the list remark is debatable.
To me, it added to the character. He was a shy momma's boy that wasn't accostumed to fight. It took him to listen to the tapes to start developing the urge for it. He wasn't a bad guy though. Maybe not the perfect friend, but the best friend that she had.
Also, if we look at the snide remark between them, Hannah did much more at the start of the series. After she started to like him more, she grew softer though.
Discotheque
Banned
Damn that's a shame. This show is much shittier (and frankly does not need a second season either) but to be fair riverdale was sadly not doing anything with reggie and the dude got much more screentime in this. It's an easy choice for the actor
TheOnlyOneHeEverFeared
Member
Apologising by fucking him up?
I hope so.
I went back and watched the intense episode of 19-2 that dealt with school shootings and I would love a show to tackle that.
So, I just saw Aislinn Paul (Claire on Degrassi and some girl on Heroes Reborn) tweet that she believes "13 reasons why discusses teen suicide & dperession in an unhepful & unhealthy way." I've seen this sentiment from other people, but I'm not sure why?
I see that people call it triggering, especially with the
scenes. Yet, with scenes like that, they had a very clear content warning that things were about to get very graphic in those respective episodes. Why continue watching the show if you're aware of that, especially given the subject matter?
As for it being unhelpful, I very much disagree with that. I think it depicted my own struggle with depression and old (years ago) consideration of suicide particularly well.
Maybe it could've been a little less dramatic, but as a counter-argument, if you're on the outside looking in, then the way Hannah perceived some of the events in her life might have looked dramatic. Yet, Hannah (or possibly anyone else) doesn't see it that way because of how everything piled on.
I never said she did it well, but yeah. To further elaborate, she was that far down the tape because she needed Clay to fully understand what was going on in her life for her to make her final decision and push him away like she did. If he had been at the beginning, who's to say he wouldn't have stopped and passed it on once he got to the next person?
I see that people call it triggering, especially with the
suicide and rape
As for it being unhelpful, I very much disagree with that. I think it depicted my own struggle with depression and old (years ago) consideration of suicide particularly well.
Maybe it could've been a little less dramatic, but as a counter-argument, if you're on the outside looking in, then the way Hannah perceived some of the events in her life might have looked dramatic. Yet, Hannah (or possibly anyone else) doesn't see it that way because of how everything piled on.
I never said she did it well, but yeah. To further elaborate, she was that far down the tape because she needed Clay to fully understand what was going on in her life for her to make her final decision and push him away like she did. If he had been at the beginning, who's to say he wouldn't have stopped and passed it on once he got to the next person?
The tapes are in chronological order, so it wouldn't make much sense to put him at the beginning.
The series cheats a bit on Clay though. In the book he's tape 9, just like the events unfolded (clay->justin->sheri) but i'm sure they made this to build suspense.
I guess Hannah could've made a special tape for him apart from the other ones, though.
The series cheats a bit on Clay though. In the book he's tape 9, just like the events unfolded (clay->justin->sheri) but i'm sure they made this to build suspense.
I guess Hannah could've made a special tape for him apart from the other ones, though.
I don't think this show discusses depression or at least focuses on it (hanna's mother has depression, but it isn't that focused.).
a lot of people have being saying that this show is about teenager depression, depression is a mental sickness, treated as a mood disorder, this is not about hannah falling in depression, but about how she is thrown to what she does.
of course it is unhelpful for depression issues, it isn't discussing them because the only person with a real depression problem is hannah's mother.
Hannah appears to have PSD (post traumatic stress disorder) at clay's tape, but not really depression as a mental sickness.
a lot of people have being saying that this show is about teenager depression, depression is a mental sickness, treated as a mood disorder, this is not about hannah falling in depression, but about how she is thrown to what she does.
of course it is unhelpful for depression issues, it isn't discussing them because the only person with a real depression problem is hannah's mother.
Hannah appears to have PSD (post traumatic stress disorder) at clay's tape, but not really depression as a mental sickness.
Kain-Nosgoth
Member
a second season really? There's really no need for it! It would be pointless IMO... they could have finished it with just an other episode...
Anyway, that show was hard, loved it! Every issue was well depicted, the characters were great and it wasn't all black and white! My only issue was that clay seemed a little left out in the tapes, even though he's been an asshole sometimes to hannah too (sure, not as nearly as the others peoples, but still)!
It seems stupid but... i wish i had drama when i was a teenager (sure not extreme like that, that would be horrible)
But everytime i watch a movie, a show, or a game where they depict life as teenagers, i feel a little jealous, i feel that i didn't experienced anything at that period of my life... and i always think of what the things i could have done if i had the same opportunities as the characters in the shows!
that doesn't stop me from liking these show of course, it's just a little feeling i have sometimes! I wish i could have gone to parties, hang out with people at school, etc... At least i'm very lucky to have two best friends, that never left me, but i still feel i missed a lot, and right now i don't really have occasions to relive these moments or even want to have things like that
Anyway, that show was hard, loved it! Every issue was well depicted, the characters were great and it wasn't all black and white! My only issue was that clay seemed a little left out in the tapes, even though he's been an asshole sometimes to hannah too (sure, not as nearly as the others peoples, but still)!
It seems stupid but... i wish i had drama when i was a teenager (sure not extreme like that, that would be horrible)
But everytime i watch a movie, a show, or a game where they depict life as teenagers, i feel a little jealous, i feel that i didn't experienced anything at that period of my life... and i always think of what the things i could have done if i had the same opportunities as the characters in the shows!
that doesn't stop me from liking these show of course, it's just a little feeling i have sometimes! I wish i could have gone to parties, hang out with people at school, etc... At least i'm very lucky to have two best friends, that never left me, but i still feel i missed a lot, and right now i don't really have occasions to relive these moments or even want to have things like that
Puck Beaverton
Banned
I feel like Alex and Clay show signs of depression.
Should've been the ending to season 1
I can see that in Alex, yeah, I still miss details on him, he for sure seems to have depression symptoms.
Clay? no I don't think that about clay, it is just a boy who is in a very difficult position though all the season, which is why it seemed with depression, it was more of feeling shitty for all the things he is going through, not exactly about having a mental health issue
Human Trashcan
Banned
Three characters in episode 2 said "FML forever" and then I turned off the TV. Judge me if you must! I didn't think it was very good anyway. Dead girl was way too much of a manic pixie dream girl imo.
Erm she's the exact opposite of that trope.
Do you know what the fuck that trope is, lmao
Human Trashcan
Banned
She went to a coffeeshop with her friend and then they saw some guy and sat with him and did the whole "WE'RE WACKY" routine. And there was also that time she got on the bus, and then the jock followed her, and then she got off the bus, even though the odds of the jock following her were maybe 1% since he was already in a car with his buddies. Because that's just how crazy she is, man! She just like, does things! Whoa!
I get that it wants to deconstruct that a little bit too by showing that she had her own fucked up problems and whatnot but it's definitely trying to have its cake and eat it.
Also literally the entire premise of the show. The whole tapes thing. It's... A Lot. I mean whatever, it's totally decent YA stuff, I'm just a grumpy old man.
Yeah, contrived as that may seem to you, that's actually not the definition of a MPDG at all still. Not to mention the stuff by the end of the series totally disproves that.
Puck Beaverton
Banned
Even her doing the tapes thing isn't MPDG, it's melodramatic and kinda shitty, but it isn't what a MPDG would do.
A Manic Pixie Dream Girl or MPDG, is a term coined by film critic Nathan Rabin after seeing Elizabethtown. It refers to "that bubbly, shallow cinematic creature that exists solely in the fevered imaginations of sensitive writer-directors to teach broodingly soulful young men to embrace life and its infinite mysteries and adventures." A pretty, outgoing, whacky female romantic lead whose sole purpose is to help broody male characters lighten up and enjoy their lives.
So no, Hannah isn't one.
So no, Hannah isn't one.
Human Trashcan
Banned
Alright, I may have misused the term, mea culpa! She fits the description except for the, I guess, crucial part about her existing to lift up a male character. But since the story (so far) is framed mostly from Clay's perspective, I don't think I'm COMPLETELY crazy for going there either. I think it's kind of how he saw her.
This was discussed in the making of trailer that Netflix also shows and early on here. The idea was that a lot of times when someone commits suicide, there is also another suicide followed by someone close who feels they are the cause of the persons suicide. Lots of guilt on Alex's shoulder and a lot of times after his tape he was in a FML mood and was fighting that guy, speeding the car etc pretty much "who gives a f attitude"
Lumpy Onion
Member
I thought his parents urged him to get back on his medication several times throughout the season. They never specifically said what the medication was for, but I thought it was pretty clear he had some kind of mental health issues. Not to mention that breakdown he had mid season where he started hearing people saying things differently than what was actually said and where he walked out onto the basketball court.
Finished it with my wife, one episode per day. I'll list a few comments below. Don't flame me preez
Some very strange characters, make odd decisions and sometimes fall into tired stereotypes. Which is kind of like high school so I let it pass
They tried too hard to make Bryce the ultimate villian, one rape isn't enough so let's make him do it again so viewers turn all their anger at him and feel bad for the others on the tape as what they did pales in comparison to what Bryce did. And Hannahs suicide didn't feel like it needed another big push, it seemed like the writer thought the audience wouldn't be convinced so let's throw in one more big incident.
Tony popping up all the time was hilarious and I doubt the writer meant it to be that way. So silly.
[/list]
They tried too hard to make Bryce the ultimate villian, one rape isn't enough so let's make him do it again so viewers turn all their anger at him and feel bad for the others on the tape as what they did pales in comparison to what Bryce did. And Hannahs suicide didn't feel like it needed another big push, it seemed like the writer thought the audience wouldn't be convinced so let's throw in one more big incident.
Tony popping up all the time was hilarious and I doubt the writer meant it to be that way. So silly.
[/list]
Thought it was a good show up until the absolutely unsatisfying ending. Looking back, the show gets damaged by having that shitty cliffhanger. It doesnt need another damn season about school shooters. Whats the third season gonna be? Werewolves and vampires?
I was really feeling it but knowing that the entire show was kind of just drawn out no reason makes it worse in my eyes. It wouldve been better to have just done one more episode with the court cased and ended the show.
I was really feeling it but knowing that the entire show was kind of just drawn out no reason makes it worse in my eyes. It wouldve been better to have just done one more episode with the court cased and ended the show.
Living the Dream
Member
The last episode should have had closure for everything and everyone. Loved this show, but now seeing that there is a second season, I feel it's too much.
Seems like with it how it ended that season 2 wouldn't be about Hannah at all...worried.
Seems like with it how it ended that season 2 wouldn't be about Hannah at all...worried.
Dr Duncan Steel
Member
The scene that showed the potential future between Hannah and Clay
actual suicide.
What a show.
It's a shame because almost everyone I know just write it off as some ABC Family corny teen drama within the first two episodes and I'm like bro, you gotta have an open mind. I must admit though, the FML stuff wasn't doing my argument any favors and I always said it gets worse before it gets better.
sobaka770
Banned
SPOLERS BELOW
Maybe I will be in minority, but after finishing the series, Im firmly of the opinion that the best episodes of the show are the first 4-5. Yes, the pacing is a bit slow, but the show does a great job of creating an interesting world with complex characters and a good drama on top of that. It also does a good job of setting up several narrative hooks and showing the psychological breakdown of Hannah.
I wish the show would just stick to that (I know its based on a book).
This is a tough show to discuss because theres a lot to like here: its overall engaging, complex, raises important themes that you dont usually see on TV, and with such detail. Scenes of abuse, rape and suicide are probably worth to be seen just for a sobering value of the act.
However it is also a show which completely falls apart at the slightiest scrutiny. It tries to be a thriller with a twist, but fails to deliver, it tries to send a strong message, but there is no message to be had, it tries to show complex characters but in the end they are just all idiots which ruins the whole construct.
So heres why 13 Reasons Why is unfortunately a very mediocre show.
Lets start with drama.
The first major driving point is that Clay is implicated in the suicide and is on the tapes. Hes struggling to understand why. The first episodes brilliantly illustrate that Hannah was moving from an outgoing playful girl into insecure and gloomy individual. Clay is set up as someone who is extremely unobservant and doesnt get social cues. Everything falls naturally for him to be on the tapes towards the end as the guy who Hannah would confide into but who just couldnt read her emotions and needs which leads to a suicide. Only that doesnt happen, because Hannah never confides in him, his presence on the tapes is contrived at best, and the only way hes implicated is because hes not a mind reader (Ill get to Hannah later). Why exactly is Clay so distraught? Why is he hating on himself? Theres NOTHING he couldve done and it removes a major part of the drama. Hes not guilty at all
That ties in with the second drama problem: kids who are on tape dont talk to anyone, Tony doesnt give the tapes to the police because Clay has to listen to them all to understand.
Bullshit.
Tony basically sat on criminal evidence for weeks, instead giving it to perpetrators. His character is totally baffling as he haunts Clay who, as Tony knows, is completely innocent, but instead says: Ye, you killed her leading to Clay almost killing himself. Only afterwards, he said, You did nothing wrong, nobody wouldve picked up on the fact that Hannah (Ill get to her later) literally told him to leave and never show his face again. How about you start with that? How about you tell Clay that hes done nothing wrong and therefore not the reason for suicide, let alone directly responsible? And since Tony is not on the tapes, how about giving evidence of rape to the police, especially since you talk to the Hannahs broken family, who didnt get to hear anything and are suing the school
All the other kids are filled with self-loathing based on pathetically weak reasoning. Lets be clear: the only major trigger for suicide from the tapes is the rape. Everything else in comparison is pathetically weak, and most of it can be traced back to Hannah. Maybe the stalker guy could get in trouble, but everyone else? So Justins fault is to take a picture which later gets disseminated, Alex made a list of hot girls which shes a part of (and that leads him on such a guilt trip of being weak that he shoots himself in the head, by the way), Jessica slaps her once based on rumors, and Zach . Reacted proportionally to himself being humiliated in front of all school for being vulnerable for once (Ill get Hannah later!!). What did the poetry guy do to be so upset and not releasing the tapes? Oh, I guess, he published her poem anonymously, which led to a class discussion about hiding deep-seated issues which is actually healthy, no? Oh, and I dont know about USA but in Europe we have a STOP sign, a STOP line and a priority to the right rule on intersections, so Sheri did a stupid thing but overreacting much? You should stop at the line anyway, whether theres a sign or not. Wheres all the guilt coming from? Especially since Hannah goes from likeable teenager experiencing a downfall to a pathetic idiot.
Third drama point: Hannah may be lying on tapes, Clay has to listen (especially to his tape!). Culminates with the episode where she believes Zach discarded her emotions while he actually keeps the paper. Ohhh, drama!! But no, everything else she said is basically all true and theres NOTHING on Clays tape which ties into Hannah might be lying construct. Why did the kids then talk all the time about how Clay would change his mind after hearing his own tape? This plot hole baffles me as it ties with the most important reason to care about the show and its resolution is not only a letdown but has almost Mass-Effect-3-ending backwards repercussions. Its laughable.
And here we come to the morale part. A major aspect of the show is the depiction of bullying, abuse, suicide, and rape in a very somber and grounded way. Its meant to make us think, its meant to deliver a message. Only that message in the end seems to be Everyone is a special snowflake. Im sorry, Im not really a guy to call out SJWs and I do believe that people should be nicer and respect others but this is way too much.
You cant berate teenagers for being teenagers, from different families, backgrounds, with raging hormones and no experience in life. Its unfair to call out people gaining life experience during their formative years through not only positive reinforcement but also through struggles and pain and hurt.
The main problem is that the series tries to say that everyone who even looked bad at Hannah is responsible, but it just falls flat. You need struggles in your life to grow. In the end, all I can think of is that its Hannah who just wasnt capable of dealing with anything in her life. If a message is to correct every single deed from making lists of hot girls at school all the way to rape, then its diluted and unclear.
The last major issue with the whole thing is how unlikeable Hannah becomes. I have no qualms saying that no matter how shocking and graphic the suicide scene was, I was almost cheering her on to do it. The She might be lying arc makes her do stupid things and the reasons once again have such a degree of variation that its unbelievable that they are all called out equally. How the hell does what Zach did compare to rape? Hows a poem?
And what about Hannahs actions. Clay is so broken over her death and starts his own vendetta, but, in truth, he shouldnt really bother or be upset with anyone, because most of the time its Hannahs fault. Hannah leads on boys way too much. Hannah overreacts and doesnt forgive or reconcile with friends. Hannah witnesses rape and doesnt report it to anyone, including her friend who got raped (?). And, as the biggest WTF moment, in the penultimate episode, she conveniently walks into the rapists house, undresses herself to her underwear and stays in a hottub with the guy alone. Ohhh, whats going to happen next, I wonder? Can I just say that I have no sympathy for her at this point without being a jerk? I mean nobody deserves to get raped, but people who act THAT STUPID, probably are on the top of the list.
But wait theres more!!! At no point until the very end, Hannah talks to anyone about anything. In fact, all these kids have issues and dont talk to anyone, including school counselor, their parents or even their friends. Thats utterly unbelievable to me. But Hannah goes one step further, several times the reason why shes hurt is because people cannot read her mind, including Clay and school counselor. I will go on a limb and say to all women: men are not good at reading your mind!! Speak the fuck up in simple terms and well do anything for you!! In case of Hannahs mind, I dont think anyone couldve read that level of crazy. Why didnt he stay after I told him to fuck off 5 times? Why wouldnt he run after me?
And the kicker is: Hannah is not a psychic either! She berates Justin but he didnt release the photo, she berates Zach who is probably the one who got hurt more, she puts Clay on the tapes for no reason at all, causing him to go through unnecessary trauma, she didnt expect the rapist to rape her while they are alone in the hottub.
Let me be very clear: I do not mind all characters to present shades of gray. I actually like a lot how many kids are depicted and how their life situations are different etc. etc. But painting Hannah this way completely distorts the message. The series depicts violence, bullying, rape but it cannot make a stand against these things, because the victim is always partially responsible. Hannah is supposed to be pure a model, to contrast with all the terrible things happening around her, but, in the end, shes just part of the problem and we have no clear stand against rape, against bullying, against not speaking up.
So here it is: a series with great premise and structure which, ultimately just doesnt deliver on any front, in my opinion. I know its based on the book, but there is a LOT of wasted opportunity here to do better. Id say 5/10 just because technically its very well done, but I cant say I care about season two or, rewatching it. I do not think its essential for anyone to watch it, because you may get the wrong lesson out of it and thats pretty bad when you talk about rape and suicide.
Maybe I will be in minority, but after finishing the series, Im firmly of the opinion that the best episodes of the show are the first 4-5. Yes, the pacing is a bit slow, but the show does a great job of creating an interesting world with complex characters and a good drama on top of that. It also does a good job of setting up several narrative hooks and showing the psychological breakdown of Hannah.
I wish the show would just stick to that (I know its based on a book).
This is a tough show to discuss because theres a lot to like here: its overall engaging, complex, raises important themes that you dont usually see on TV, and with such detail. Scenes of abuse, rape and suicide are probably worth to be seen just for a sobering value of the act.
However it is also a show which completely falls apart at the slightiest scrutiny. It tries to be a thriller with a twist, but fails to deliver, it tries to send a strong message, but there is no message to be had, it tries to show complex characters but in the end they are just all idiots which ruins the whole construct.
So heres why 13 Reasons Why is unfortunately a very mediocre show.
Lets start with drama.
The first major driving point is that Clay is implicated in the suicide and is on the tapes. Hes struggling to understand why. The first episodes brilliantly illustrate that Hannah was moving from an outgoing playful girl into insecure and gloomy individual. Clay is set up as someone who is extremely unobservant and doesnt get social cues. Everything falls naturally for him to be on the tapes towards the end as the guy who Hannah would confide into but who just couldnt read her emotions and needs which leads to a suicide. Only that doesnt happen, because Hannah never confides in him, his presence on the tapes is contrived at best, and the only way hes implicated is because hes not a mind reader (Ill get to Hannah later). Why exactly is Clay so distraught? Why is he hating on himself? Theres NOTHING he couldve done and it removes a major part of the drama. Hes not guilty at all
That ties in with the second drama problem: kids who are on tape dont talk to anyone, Tony doesnt give the tapes to the police because Clay has to listen to them all to understand.
Bullshit.
Tony basically sat on criminal evidence for weeks, instead giving it to perpetrators. His character is totally baffling as he haunts Clay who, as Tony knows, is completely innocent, but instead says: Ye, you killed her leading to Clay almost killing himself. Only afterwards, he said, You did nothing wrong, nobody wouldve picked up on the fact that Hannah (Ill get to her later) literally told him to leave and never show his face again. How about you start with that? How about you tell Clay that hes done nothing wrong and therefore not the reason for suicide, let alone directly responsible? And since Tony is not on the tapes, how about giving evidence of rape to the police, especially since you talk to the Hannahs broken family, who didnt get to hear anything and are suing the school
All the other kids are filled with self-loathing based on pathetically weak reasoning. Lets be clear: the only major trigger for suicide from the tapes is the rape. Everything else in comparison is pathetically weak, and most of it can be traced back to Hannah. Maybe the stalker guy could get in trouble, but everyone else? So Justins fault is to take a picture which later gets disseminated, Alex made a list of hot girls which shes a part of (and that leads him on such a guilt trip of being weak that he shoots himself in the head, by the way), Jessica slaps her once based on rumors, and Zach . Reacted proportionally to himself being humiliated in front of all school for being vulnerable for once (Ill get Hannah later!!). What did the poetry guy do to be so upset and not releasing the tapes? Oh, I guess, he published her poem anonymously, which led to a class discussion about hiding deep-seated issues which is actually healthy, no? Oh, and I dont know about USA but in Europe we have a STOP sign, a STOP line and a priority to the right rule on intersections, so Sheri did a stupid thing but overreacting much? You should stop at the line anyway, whether theres a sign or not. Wheres all the guilt coming from? Especially since Hannah goes from likeable teenager experiencing a downfall to a pathetic idiot.
Third drama point: Hannah may be lying on tapes, Clay has to listen (especially to his tape!). Culminates with the episode where she believes Zach discarded her emotions while he actually keeps the paper. Ohhh, drama!! But no, everything else she said is basically all true and theres NOTHING on Clays tape which ties into Hannah might be lying construct. Why did the kids then talk all the time about how Clay would change his mind after hearing his own tape? This plot hole baffles me as it ties with the most important reason to care about the show and its resolution is not only a letdown but has almost Mass-Effect-3-ending backwards repercussions. Its laughable.
And here we come to the morale part. A major aspect of the show is the depiction of bullying, abuse, suicide, and rape in a very somber and grounded way. Its meant to make us think, its meant to deliver a message. Only that message in the end seems to be Everyone is a special snowflake. Im sorry, Im not really a guy to call out SJWs and I do believe that people should be nicer and respect others but this is way too much.
You cant berate teenagers for being teenagers, from different families, backgrounds, with raging hormones and no experience in life. Its unfair to call out people gaining life experience during their formative years through not only positive reinforcement but also through struggles and pain and hurt.
The main problem is that the series tries to say that everyone who even looked bad at Hannah is responsible, but it just falls flat. You need struggles in your life to grow. In the end, all I can think of is that its Hannah who just wasnt capable of dealing with anything in her life. If a message is to correct every single deed from making lists of hot girls at school all the way to rape, then its diluted and unclear.
The last major issue with the whole thing is how unlikeable Hannah becomes. I have no qualms saying that no matter how shocking and graphic the suicide scene was, I was almost cheering her on to do it. The She might be lying arc makes her do stupid things and the reasons once again have such a degree of variation that its unbelievable that they are all called out equally. How the hell does what Zach did compare to rape? Hows a poem?
And what about Hannahs actions. Clay is so broken over her death and starts his own vendetta, but, in truth, he shouldnt really bother or be upset with anyone, because most of the time its Hannahs fault. Hannah leads on boys way too much. Hannah overreacts and doesnt forgive or reconcile with friends. Hannah witnesses rape and doesnt report it to anyone, including her friend who got raped (?). And, as the biggest WTF moment, in the penultimate episode, she conveniently walks into the rapists house, undresses herself to her underwear and stays in a hottub with the guy alone. Ohhh, whats going to happen next, I wonder? Can I just say that I have no sympathy for her at this point without being a jerk? I mean nobody deserves to get raped, but people who act THAT STUPID, probably are on the top of the list.
But wait theres more!!! At no point until the very end, Hannah talks to anyone about anything. In fact, all these kids have issues and dont talk to anyone, including school counselor, their parents or even their friends. Thats utterly unbelievable to me. But Hannah goes one step further, several times the reason why shes hurt is because people cannot read her mind, including Clay and school counselor. I will go on a limb and say to all women: men are not good at reading your mind!! Speak the fuck up in simple terms and well do anything for you!! In case of Hannahs mind, I dont think anyone couldve read that level of crazy. Why didnt he stay after I told him to fuck off 5 times? Why wouldnt he run after me?
And the kicker is: Hannah is not a psychic either! She berates Justin but he didnt release the photo, she berates Zach who is probably the one who got hurt more, she puts Clay on the tapes for no reason at all, causing him to go through unnecessary trauma, she didnt expect the rapist to rape her while they are alone in the hottub.
Let me be very clear: I do not mind all characters to present shades of gray. I actually like a lot how many kids are depicted and how their life situations are different etc. etc. But painting Hannah this way completely distorts the message. The series depicts violence, bullying, rape but it cannot make a stand against these things, because the victim is always partially responsible. Hannah is supposed to be pure a model, to contrast with all the terrible things happening around her, but, in the end, shes just part of the problem and we have no clear stand against rape, against bullying, against not speaking up.
So here it is: a series with great premise and structure which, ultimately just doesnt deliver on any front, in my opinion. I know its based on the book, but there is a LOT of wasted opportunity here to do better. Id say 5/10 just because technically its very well done, but I cant say I care about season two or, rewatching it. I do not think its essential for anyone to watch it, because you may get the wrong lesson out of it and thats pretty bad when you talk about rape and suicide.
Man I loved the show. I kind of understand where the characters comes from and even if some of them are pretty caricatural and unredeemable they were mostly well written, nt black or white for most of them.
Pretty disappointed though by the ending, I wanted full closure for everyone, good or bad. But I kind of see myself a bit in Clay, especially when I was younger, and to me his reactions, and his awkwardness, hurting someone without meaning to or realising it were very natural.
Pretty disappointed though by the ending, I wanted full closure for everyone, good or bad. But I kind of see myself a bit in Clay, especially when I was younger, and to me his reactions, and his awkwardness, hurting someone without meaning to or realising it were very natural.
Also I don't think Clay is gonna have trouble, I mean he's the one that unblock the whole situation in the end and his tapes makes it like he was the only nice one, that never did anything wrong outside of being awkward and not understanding his fellow classmates.
The show was good but
Clay's inclusion on the tapes makes no sense whatsoever and is nothing but an act of cruelty. If Hannah chose him to be the carrier of her will and testament like Tony then that would have been fine. But the whole show builds up to a point where Clay hurts her,
and knowing how that happened is one of the most lingering questions throughout the show. Given what we're shown about Clay's general emotional awkwardness it seems likely that he was involved in some unfortunate misunderstanding that ended up hurting Hannah badly. But no, he does absolutely nothing but act extremely polite and appropriate to her the entire time.
and knowing how that happened is one of the most lingering questions throughout the show. Given what we're shown about Clay's general emotional awkwardness it seems likely that he was involved in some unfortunate misunderstanding that ended up hurting Hannah badly. But no, he does absolutely nothing but act extremely polite and appropriate to her the entire time.
RedAssedApe
Banned
Apparently renewed for s2
Poker Face
Member
Is there a concrete source on this? I've only seen rumors.
I like this show overall but I can't believe how popular it is. I'm actually kind of afraid it will be a bad influence on people.
Also regardless of all the awful stuff (that was all loaded into the last three or four episodes) I was not ready for the final episodes key scene...
Also regardless of all the awful stuff (that was all loaded into the last three or four episodes) I was not ready for the final episodes key scene...
And if the second season centers on peeking toms school shooting I don't know how that will work, nobody will have much sympathy for him.
partime
Member
Your lucky, whenever my wife is interested in a series I'm watching, she just wiki's it, comments about it vaguely and leaves. Shows I enjoy watching are too stressful for her.
Because he loved this and can't stand to hear her voice in his head that long. I don't know, it's the reasoning I told myself.
Chairmanchuck
Member
He expains later he just isnt capable of that and that he is scared that his tape might be the next one.
Fair enough. I know if that was me and people I knew were giving me cryptic answers and watching me I'd be finding out what was on them straight away. It just seemed like a way to drag the plot out.
I'm in the 4th episode right now.
The idea of going to school in plain clothes instead of uniforms is foreign to me as it is, makes the high school like a pseudo university environment. But then I see these kids wear costumes to school and even the teachers are wearing one. Is this an American thing ? Lol
So strange.
Edit: Wow everyone is just so dumb in here, no one understands common sense I guess. I didn't think high schoolers would be this dumb.
The idea of going to school in plain clothes instead of uniforms is foreign to me as it is, makes the high school like a pseudo university environment. But then I see these kids wear costumes to school and even the teachers are wearing one. Is this an American thing ? Lol
So strange.
Edit: Wow everyone is just so dumb in here, no one understands common sense I guess. I didn't think high schoolers would be this dumb.
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