Radical Edward
Member
It doesn't add tension, it just makes cheap /unlucky deaths infuriating. The game's encounters are designed poorly, so far. Tesnsion and risk should come from great combat/enemy encounters not cheap shit that you can't avoid.
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Game Over when MC dies in Persona is a terrible mechanic. Why is this still a thing?
- Thread starter Jeffrey
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ethomaz
Banned
Never played P3... that is how it is in P4... MC is the only powerful enough to do things like revive others... he has god powers... the others not.
It is you and the only important party member because if he dies nobody else has powers... the MC allow the others party members to have power.
If MC dies is gameover for everybody else story wise.
TimeEffect
Member
It seems fine to me. Support the main character with the other teammates, use his advantage of changing personas.
I can see the counter being that it forces the battles to focus solely on keeping the MC alive and doesn't let you play out the other characters (like keeping them alive), but from what I played so far, the enemies don't particularly favour attacking the main character
I can see the counter being that it forces the battles to focus solely on keeping the MC alive and doesn't let you play out the other characters (like keeping them alive), but from what I played so far, the enemies don't particularly favour attacking the main character
Dangansona
Member
I'm not sure how I feel about it. I lean towards saying it should go. As to why, I've said before on this subject I assume Persona team made this design decision because as a developer they make the effort to tie in every aspect of the game possible to their story and themes. Thus MC dying would be the end for the party, he is the most important piece.
Nier and Yakuza 0. Two very recent releases that were designed in the same way. I'm not sure why people take this for granted when it's apparent from the save slots and the load screen that there is no autosave.
Edit: Quote was messed up, but original post's quote was messed up, so meh.
Edit 2: Quoted poster edited post and things went to hell. Quoted new post.
Risk: "I might lose anywhere up to an hour of progress, and not necessarily through any fault of my own."
Reward: "I didn't lose any progress."
Where's the reward? It's less of a "risk/reward" mechanic and more of a "If you die we're going to punish the shit out of you" mechanic.
toddhunter
Member
It totally does.
That thrill you get pressing on, hoping that you'll eventually reach another safe room is fantastic. And preparing against getting wiped is absolutely possible (and nearly guaranteed once you max someone's confidant).
SMT4A is plenty tense and harder than P3,4, and 5 on default difficulties and that game doesn't game over when MC dies.
And the MC in SMT4A is hilariously OP
Switch to an easier mode. This is a great mechanic that forces you to do things like buff your main, debuff enemies, cast moves that inflict fear/confuse, etc to make prevent enemies from ganging up on you.
Third dungeon, on hard and I've only died in normal battles a couple times and each time it's only been ~10 minutes of lost progress because of the frequent save points. Some of you losing "hours" of progress must not be saving.
Being able to retry story battles is an incredible improvement. Tokyo Mirage Session letting you retry after losing a normal fight trivialized dungeons combat.
Third dungeon, on hard and I've only died in normal battles a couple times and each time it's only been ~10 minutes of lost progress because of the frequent save points. Some of you losing "hours" of progress must not be saving.
Being able to retry story battles is an incredible improvement. Tokyo Mirage Session letting you retry after losing a normal fight trivialized dungeons combat.
Scrooge McDuck
Member
Naw, that's not a thing in Persona 4, either. Both Teddie and Yukiko can revive people, there are items that can revive people, and that game even have some other Persona users operating separately from the Investigation Team.
There are tons of games that don't autosave as a mechanic. And I rarely ever die in these games.
You mad because you can't do better, that's cool. Play something else or switch to easy. Rest of us will continue to enjoy our games lathered with risk. Mmm
toastyToast
Member
It's stupid and whether or not you game over is rng.
I was and am heavily turned off by this mechanic as well. I get the argument that it provides tension - I have experienced that myself and lived through it, which was fun.
On the other hand, I have far more often lost significant progress to this otherwise meanlingless mechanic. The argument seems to be, that getting better is the idea, but how can one possibly arrange for all circumstances from the get go without any knowledge of the demons, possibly no knowledge of the series at a whole?
While preparation is of course necessary, I don't think it would be possible to cover every possible deadly situation for the MC without prior knowledge of the path ahead.
Most of the time the game circumvents this problem, however, through shortcuts and quite a few save spots, which made it overall acceptable imo (I am at the fifth arc, for reference).
This actually killed me more often.
On the other hand, I have far more often lost significant progress to this otherwise meanlingless mechanic. The argument seems to be, that getting better is the idea, but how can one possibly arrange for all circumstances from the get go without any knowledge of the demons, possibly no knowledge of the series at a whole?
While preparation is of course necessary, I don't think it would be possible to cover every possible deadly situation for the MC without prior knowledge of the path ahead.
Most of the time the game circumvents this problem, however, through shortcuts and quite a few save spots, which made it overall acceptable imo (I am at the fifth arc, for reference).
This actually killed me more often.
NoctisVsStar
Member
The mechanic is fair, don't wanna hear it. MC is the jack of all trades so it works out.
These "git gud" posts are fucking cancer.
ethomaz
Banned
Without MC others didn't have powers... neither can enter dungeons or anything else.
MC is the God that makes everything happens and exists in P4.
Teddie and Yukiko can revive because the MC is in the party... that is pretty clear in the game.
Primethius
Banned
With the proliferation of various Personas that deal with certain weakness and especially save rooms, I don't find this to be much of an issue.
MaximumSpider
Banned
Only way for that to happen is if you pressed O after jumping to said wall. The enemy should not be about to see you unless you, yourself, move from that wall.
Changing the difficulty might prevent you from dying as often, but dying isn't the issue. The issue is what happens when you do die.
I have no issue with dying in games, but punishing me by erasing large chunks of my progress isn't fun or challenging. It just tells me that the game doesn't value my time, which is a bitter pill for a game that demands as much time as this one does.
RecRoulette
Member
I've only played the first two and like an hour of 3 and 4 each. The first time someone told me this I thought they were crazy.
They can all do that
It's fine. Just autosave when I go into the room. What's the practical difference between doing it for me and making me remember to do it myself? You're going to potentially make me lose an hour because I didn't remember to press start?
You really should get better bro. It's that simple. I love playing through these games wondering what danger is around the corner, knowing there is a real risk of losing progress if I make a mistake. It makes every exploration exciting and riveting.
So to compensate, I get really good at the game, and am delighted during those rare moments when I do fuck up.
If you can't take the challenge, there are easier modes that make this sort of thing a virtually non-existent problem. You've also already been catered to in a thousand other games. So either lower the difficulty or play another game. This one is fine just the way it is.
Also, want to push back harder against "every game has autosave" nonsense. There are entire genres that avoid it for specific gameplay reasons. Rogue-likes where you can lose hours of progress if you don't get better. In Xanadu Next, there are enemies that you randomly encounter that when they hit you force you to lose levels, and since equipment is tied to stats you can end up not being able to use any of your equipment. And it's still amazing.
WaterAstro
Member
It makes you prioritize the safety of your character. There are various mechanics in the game that assists you, particularly social links and switch Personas.
This hero death mechanic encourages players to explore different strategies to protect them, otherwise you can completely ignore Persona switching to avoid weakness.
If you don't like the mechanic, switch to easy difficulty..
This hero death mechanic encourages players to explore different strategies to protect them, otherwise you can completely ignore Persona switching to avoid weakness.
If you don't like the mechanic, switch to easy difficulty..
Scrooge McDuck
Member
Naw, that's seriously not a thing. Teddie has been living in this dungeon long before MC came along, after all, and the first incident of people entering TV happened even before the MC arrives in town.
LordKasual
Banned
I'd rather play a game balanced around utilizing your full team, than a game that cheaply makes you restart a match because a specific character got hit with bad RNG
ethomaz
Banned
When you die in easy mode you back to the start of the floor... there is no way to lose a large chunks of progress lol
Now hard you back to the last save point but you get more rewards like money, drops, etc for enemies kills.
If you don't want to learn how to play the game, then turn down the difficulty.
malboroking
Banned
Have to make sure to get a stupid "burn" on FF 15 in there, no matter how poorly shoehorned
I'm not a massive fan, but I can live with it.
I think it's less of an annoyance this time round at least. Since safe rooms and shortcuts tend to happen quite often. There's only a few dungeons which have long stretches without one.
They all get that at rank 9 as far as I've seen.
That said, good luck having it activate. Everyone in my party had it, and I didn't see it activate once in my first play through of Persona 5 on normal. That said, I didn't really die that much.
I think it's less of an annoyance this time round at least. Since safe rooms and shortcuts tend to happen quite often. There's only a few dungeons which have long stretches without one.
They all get that at rank 9 as far as I've seen.
That said, good luck having it activate. Everyone in my party had it, and I didn't see it activate once in my first play through of Persona 5 on normal. That said, I didn't really die that much.
How are the encounters poorly designed? The groups you fight against usually have a theme of some sort, it usually doesn't matter that much but there are groups which mainly deal damage through status effects, some with mainly brute force attacks, and so on. Throwing a blanket statement like "encounters are designed poorly" and not giving any examples of it doesn't do you any favors. If you are unsure about the enemies you can just guard with your mc, and fish out the weaknesses for future reference, or if you still don't feel safe you can order an escape after that so that you will get away even if you didn't manage to find the weaknesses. And if you get ambushed and the enemy kills you in one turn, it's just your own fault for getting the alert status going.
yes fuck that.
Anyway, it's annoying at times because sometimes you'll just get fucked for something that just isn't your fault. Luckily I haven't lost too much progress because of this in 5 but in 3 I lost lots of progress because of the way that game handled death...now that was BS. At least this game has tons of save points and for some fights even lets you start right at the beginning of the fight again.
First dungeon boss randomly one shots my MC.
It's fucking dumb.
Normally I'd agree, but the solution right now seems to be to grind out a few levels to get skills I need (defense buffs) to survive an attack. That doesn't feel like playing smart. I'm playing on hard and, according to the thieves guild thing, am at the first dungeon boss 2-3 levels earlier than the average.
Lowering the difficulty won't do anything for me since I've managed to do well so far. It's just that the boss is one shotting my MC and makes me start the entire battle over. It's very frustrating that I'm actually going to have to grind over actually relying on strategy just on the off chance the boss targets my MC.
Blackleg-sanji1
Banned
It be cool if I only controlled Mc but meh I don't like having to worry about him like a special snowflake when it's suppose to be a team effort. My poor haru is on the ground bouta die and I gotta save kousei instead
AtomskEater
Member
While I think it is a pretty dumb mechanic (do your other party members just give up and not revive you?) I have never really had a problem with it. If the other characters were able to revive the MC I basically would never see the gameover screen after a good round of Marin Karin, and I save often so the 2-3 times it has happened didn't inconvenience me much. Needing to protect the MC, sometimes to the detriment of other characters, adds a little bit of challenge.
I'M AN IDIOT. this just shows how i've only fixated on romancing one character.
Cheshire_Buddha
Member
aka "I accept shitty design because u suck and i dont lol"
It is okay to acknowledge shitty design and still not be affected by it.
Edit: Risk is good and I welcome it. I don't think how Persona implemented Risk is a good implementation because I don't like the lopsided focus on the MC in your party. Similarily I would prefer to have changeable Personas for everyone. Balance the combat accordingly.
Which boss? I haven't run into that at all.
Blackleg-sanji1
Banned
All these get good posts..it being on easy(which I'm playing on) doesn't make it any less annoying
You shouldn't be losing significant amounts of progress in Persona 5 if you're actively saving in the save room. At best, you'd lose 15 to 25 minutes, and on every difficulty except the DLC one you can even restart from the last save room or restart a boss/miniboss...
I mean, technically Atlus could add an auto-save feature in it's own slot, but given that SMT and Persona games are all about skill point management, a player would have reason to manually save too and not overwrite it. Likewise, also given the time management, some people might want multiple slots.
So play those games there are a milion of them! It's not hard!
Quintin DM
Member
Yep it really sucks. I've just gotten into the habit of saving a much as possible to avoid as little lost progress as possible. It particularly bothers me because of the fact that enemies can have those OHK moves that there's literally nothing you can do about except have a persona that resists that type of element. But if it's a new enemy and you don't know what his moves are then you have no way to anticipate that it might pull that shit. Now I know those moves don't always hit, but doesn't it just suck that you could lose progress just by mere chance? I sure think it does.