It is and Persona can be as well, but you could still get rocked if you made one mistake and gave the enemies a round. I rather deal with Smirking than having the game over come down to a roll of the dice that they don't aim at the MC.
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Game Over when MC dies in Persona is a terrible mechanic. Why is this still a thing?
- Thread starter Jeffrey
- Start date
It is and Persona can be as well, but you could still get rocked if you made one mistake and gave the enemies a round. I rather deal with Smirking than having the game over come down to a roll of the dice that they don't aim at the MC.
MaximumSpider
Banned
Being one shotted by the first boss is really hard to do unless you are half health.
Speaking on normal and hard mode. It could be possible on Merciless but I haven't used that myself.
Coriolanus
Banned
Was under the impression that DF can't target the same party member twice. Certainly didn't happen to me.
Either way, DF hitting twice wouldn't qualify as oneshotting. Just really shitty luck.
I think the games are actually balanced quite differently. I don't mind the decision one way or the other as long as it's balanced appropriately. I don't think Persona 5 would be ruined if the MC could die in one hit, but I think it's fine. I sympathize with people who are frustrated when they lose - hell, I've been there - but I don't think it's a flaw in the game. It can just be a hard game sometimes. There's a reason "getting SMT'd" is a phrase - it's just something you accept when you play these games.
Game isn't difficult so far until I got to this boss who can one shot my MC.
So, no, I won't play on a lower difficulty compromising my enjoyment of the rest of the game because of a mechanic I think is bullshit.
But good job with the elitism, lol.
I'll just grind out a few more levels so I don't have to use strategy.
The funny thing is auto-saving at the points where it makes sense takes nothing away from the game's difficulty, but doesn't overly punish you for forgetting to do something almost no game has required you to do for 15 years.
Believe me, I've been running back to safe rooms wherever possible. As a result, I've only lost significant progress once or twice.
Being able to restart at bosses is an absolute godsend.
I guess you haven't met Amirox before.
Autosaving when entering a save room or entering a cafe, assuming it saves to it's own slot, would be fine.
I've had some screwups, but they've all been entirely my fault. Getting careless and not getting the advantage, or thinking I could win a fight without using SP/weaknesses, and getting owned. I'm a paranoid saver tho, and keep multiple save files.
And yeah, the restart at bosses feature is really nice, given most boss battles will take more than one attempt anyhow unless the player has gone out of their way to amass Personas for every scenario.
I've had some screwups, but they've all been entirely my fault. Getting careless and not getting the advantage, or thinking I could win a fight without using SP/weaknesses, and getting owned. I'm a paranoid saver tho, and keep multiple save files.
And yeah, the restart at bosses feature is really nice, given most boss battles will take more than one attempt anyhow unless the player has gone out of their way to amass Personas for every scenario.
You can change your strengths and weaknesses without wasting a turn, there's an item that auto revives your main character on death (Straw Doll?), you're practically Navi'd every time you're within ten miles of a save room, the game is balanced to take MC = death into account, the only dick move is the despair status ailment which can be prevented if you go into dungeons with batman levels prep time.
Scrooge McDuck
Member
Their Persona awakened because of MC, but that doesn't mean that they'd actually lose them just because the MC lost consciousness. That's extrapolating more than what the game actually told you. And that reasoning doesn't apply to the Phantom Thieves, anyway.
SMTIV's balance is notoriously bad, actually. It doesn't really avoid it past a certain point where your protagonist becomes way too strong.
SMT: Apocalypse was much better at avoiding it.
Coriolanus
Banned
you do not know what elitism is.
Have fun playing however you wanna play, b.
Gods help you when enemies start spamming instant kill skills.
Radical Edward
Member
Thd game tells you what they are weak to. It's easy to keep them down and spam all out attack. The most strategy comes from sp management.
ethomaz
Banned
After play P4 I will say autosave is not a good feature.
Due relationship and options I could hate if the game auto save (unless it is a different slot for each auto save).
I used to not save just to simulate which relationships I will reach in days in the future... to back and to again everything the way I like.
I had to restart the game after 30 hours because I didn't reach the relationships I wanted due a bad manual save... even using old saves it was already screwed up.
Unless the autosave uses different slots each time I don't support it.
Manual saves is a key tool to play Persona games.
How can it put you in unwinnable places? Any time you can save in a dungeon, you can leave the dungeon.
I don't understand. No one is forcing you to use the autosave slot exclusively. Why would that be a bad thing?
benicillin
Banned
Funny topic because I literally just ran into a fight not 10 minutes ago and got insta-bodied from a Mudo.
It's frustrating as all hell but save every safe room and it's not usually an issue. I usually feel like the game is balanced way in my favor, it's gotta bite back sometime. I still get Marin Karin nightmares from P3.
It's frustrating as all hell but save every safe room and it's not usually an issue. I usually feel like the game is balanced way in my favor, it's gotta bite back sometime. I still get Marin Karin nightmares from P3.
blankempathy
Member
Sure auto saving would be easier but entering save rooms practically do everything but actually tell the player to save the game. How do people forget to save? Does Mona have to tell the player to save too?
The mechanic is what it is. I don't see a problem with preferring it not to be in the game, but I don't think one can argue that there's "no way to defend against it" considering every single party member confidant gets a skill that allows them to take a fatal blow for you, and you can block against instant death attacks not only with specific personas but also with item buffs. You do have quite a toolbox here.
Someone playing fire with the deadline and it overwrites the last safe save. Actually what happens if you go over it?
It's one thing to come at a criticism with the idea that there is some fundamental issue with it.
"I don't like it because for me losing progress sucks, and I'd rather it not be there."
Rather than pulling some nonsense out of the back pocket and trying to make it some hard fast game development rule that everyone must adhere to, like they have been.
No, all games DON'T have autosave mechanics. Yes, many developers consciously do not put use it in service of their game systems and gameplay. Yes, many gamers love them. Yes, there are entire genres that avoid it for one reason or another. There are games for example where preparation is key (Persona is part of them, but hardly one of the more punishing ones) and as a result you know before entering a dungeon that you won't be able to save again until you exit. And that's the point. And it's an awesome mechanic for tons of people!
Persona 5 isn't even a particularly punishing game. And it's already sacrificed a lot over the years in service of making the game more accessible to people who never were even a part of this franchise for years and never cared for it. It doesn't need to go further.
I play on easy so I don't have to deal with this.
I don't want to lose time fusing personas or grinding. I just want to see the story.
mugurumakensei
Member
Even then, after a certain point, it becomes a non-issue ( when you reach a certain level with a certain confidant ).
The games actually ridiculously easy especially in comparison to Persona 3 or any of the mainline SMT titles. It's basically a slight notch above P4G in difficulty. That said, the game does need auto save after every day at least.
toddhunter
Member
It has to hinge on the MC because otherwise someone in your party will inevitably null the enemies attacks. This basically removes all the tension in the game and turns it into completely mindless grinding rather than the completely slightly mindful grinding we all love.
It is fine not to like it, but the whole "there is no reason it is in there... oh that is the reason well I don't like the reason, elitism" argument is nonsense. It serves a specific purpose and it delivers on it really well.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
It's actually fine, as it adds additional challenge to the game and forces you to be especially more careful and creative in how you handle and manage the MC's Persona skill sets.
It's not "terrible" at all.
It's not "terrible" at all.
I absolutely adore Persona 3 and 4 (haven't gotten to 5 yet) and I totally agree with you, op. I understand why the design choice was made but that doesn't make it good. Just like no pause in the Souls games even when you're playing offline.
With that said I don't hate it either. But I'd be lying if I said it's never extremely frustrating either.
With that said I don't hate it either. But I'd be lying if I said it's never extremely frustrating either.
That's a super important part of the game. It's why you can't just use your most powerful spells every single turn - you have to last for the dungeon. It's part of the game (and battle) design.
edit: And no the game does not tell you what they're weak to - you have to discover it first through trial and error.
/shrug
I think a mechanic is stupid. Doesn't mean I'm not enjoying or should change the way I'm playing the game.
You get a bad ending and can choose to reset a week afaik.
Reptars Revenge
Member
This is why we have 3 zelda timelines
Primethius
Banned
Oh yea, I forgot about the confidant abilities.
I think you can get those abilities before enemies with insta-kill even show up too.
ethomaz
Banned
Lore wise the others party members only has powers due MC... there is no game at all if he dies.
Persona 4 trained me to do this but then I realized Takemi sold Invig 1/2/3 accessories.
God bless.
Onmoraki in the second palace spams Mudo like a mad....onion(?).
LurkerPrime
Member
You know what? This is actually my favourite mechanic in Persona games--they make it work. In combat, it adds a lot of tension, giving the Protagonist this heightened importance over the other party members, meaning they need to be twice as safe as anyone else, always protected. It adds this aspect of risk vs. reward in situations where you need a persona that has an easily exploited weakness, vs. a weaker one that's much more resilient. It gives some personas utility far beyond their level.
If you can just restart with no penalty it becomes busywork, however. A literal roll of the dice until you're the favoured one. (Although I totally appreciate P4G's restart-at-boss convenience. Not sure if P5 does that.)
Also, I recently beat Persona 3 Portable and
extreme ending spoilers for Persona 3 Portable
[
]
That's only if you get an ambush on the enemy. If they get one on you it can be over in a single turn, Protagonist dying or not.
If you can just restart with no penalty it becomes busywork, however. A literal roll of the dice until you're the favoured one. (Although I totally appreciate P4G's restart-at-boss convenience. Not sure if P5 does that.)
Also, I recently beat Persona 3 Portable and
extreme ending spoilers for Persona 3 Portable
[
this mechanic ties together with everything else in the ending. Throughout the game, the Protagonist alone has had the strength to resist any attack via switching personas. In the end, maxed Social Links--true, unbreakable bonds with others--are the strength the Protagonist needs to overcome an enemy that literally cannot be defeated; these bonds give them the strength to resist everything. Mechanically, this means that the protaognist resists every fatal attack until they can win. It's this beautiful unification of game mechanics and the story, and after dozens of hours in the game world, it is this incredibly touching moment that few other games have ever even come close to. I absolutely love it.
That's only if you get an ambush on the enemy. If they get one on you it can be over in a single turn, Protagonist dying or not.
MaximumSpider
Banned
Tae's clinic has both.
That is actually true, it's one of my gripes with the game how difficulty is handled, in earlier games the enemy would pinpoint to your weaknesses like hawks, fire emblem style and get as many kills as possible, but in this one they might exploit an weakness and then throw a meaningless buff. Not sure if difficulty changes the AI at all, but i didn't want to risk the game being too hard since hard mode in earlier games hard mode was too hard for me. Though i don't agree with what you said about controls.
I kept the low level elemental spells as long as I could because at a certain point they only slow your SP loss if you're using -dyne spells each turn.
I assume those are at the top of the confidant levels like in the past games? I'm 30 hours in the game and not seen any of that yet.
Ive not seen any 'save you from a death' items yet. Are those sold somewhere?
ethomaz
Banned
It is... at least in P4.
Every persona is tied to MC... even the others party member persona... MC has the God powers that give powers to others party members.
Leafhopper
Banned
Same could be said about people wanting to redesign parts of the game even though it's not broken and it's something you have to learn. If you find the game hard then play on an easier difficulty.
That's why it's there.
Not even saying it's good or bad. As others have pointed out mainline SMT games have gotten away from it to but, Atlus at this point doesn't even call Persona a SMT spinoff anymore on the box.
Mister_Ruck
Member
Or you could just save when you come across a safe room. They're literally marked with a big green S on the map. How hard is it to remember to save every time you find one? Especially if it's happened to you before?
It does get pretty easy (having started off fairly punishing, but far more manageable after Naraku). The story DLC was much harder. Will echo that IV:A has seemed better in respect to overall balance from what I've played of it.
I think it is a terrible mechanic, and the SMT series has slowly gotten away from it with time. The Persona team is still a bit lagging compared to the other development teams with regards to this (and to a lesser extent, Demon fusion mechanics). A bunch of the Search/Compendium systems from the DS/3DS games should have been in Persona, but aren't.
Come on...you can't fault this game for having a save system like it does.
Scrooge McDuck
Member
Lorewise when a combatant's HP goes to zero, they're just knocked out, not dead.
Primethius
Banned
Oh, never encountered it. I got lucky I guess. I only mentioned that because I think Ryuji gets the skill at rank 5 or 6 which seems fairly early to me.
IIRC in Persona 4 the "save MC from death" bonus was the reward for just establishing the link.
They've moved it to rank 9 here.