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Charles Randall on why game developers aren't more candid with public

TheThreadsThatBindUs

TheThreadsThatBindUs

Member
Venfayth said:
This seems like a really cheap argument in the face of the reply to that situation from the dev:

https://twitter.com/DavidVonderhaar/status/359662272500609026

It may not be "indicative of that community or gaming as a whole" but it's not an insignificant problem, unless you're willing to tell devs to deal with it - which I think is particularly crass.

Late edit:

Also, to be clear, I'm just saying that we should avoid trying to minimize the impact of shitty trolls while in the same breath blaming devs for using twitter.

I'm all for people using alternate forms of communication if it helps them talk about their game safely.
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I don't think it's fair to say that any of us are blaming devs fro using Twitter, but none of us should be ignorant of the fact that an unregulated platform with no moderation to speak of, like Twitter, provides assholes a platform to spew their vitriol unabated.

Developers make a conscious decision about the platforms they use to communicate with their customers and so I don't see how it isn't fair to state that developers could minimize their exposure to some forms of online harassment by using platforms like Twitter a lot less.

The fault of poor management of the Twitter platform doesn't lie with the developers using it, but Twitter themselves. And the poster you were replying to admitted as much.
 
S

Sini

Member
Venfayth said:
Not sure if we're veering off-topic here, but what games are creating addicts?
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Not necessarily addicts but people who spend lot of time and money on gambling in videogames. All the games with lootboxes, especially ones that have slot-machine like visualizations.
And of course streamers/youtubers who also help getting people hooked to these things.
 
M

meerak

Member
I mean yeah, duh.

If I ever get my game off the ground you better believe I'll never say shit about it. What's the point? So 0.00001% of people will say something reasonable about it? Best to save it for in-person conversation.

As a commercial (custom) software dev, we already say little to nothing about the process to the client. It's largely pointless.
 
T

tuxfool

Banned
SeeNoWeevil said:
Criticism is usually aimed at the collective under the umbrella of 'dev', which I think is what the original tweet is aimed at.
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Not really.

He is speaking in his capacity as an individual developer, and not talking about reasonable complaints/Dialogue.

Imagine in real life if a person complaining about a product, grabbed a random employee and started screaming at them, or whining at them with uninformed comments on how they should do their job? They would rightfully be removed from the premises.
 
adversarial

adversarial

Member
Everything he said is true and it's completely sad. I honestly can't think of another 'culture of fans' that are more toxic than 'gamers'.
 
L

LelouchViBritannia

Member
He's right. Shenmue 3 says hello. The toxic and horrible speech that was being spread when the S3 teaser was released proves his point.

I think i recall yu suzuki saying in 5 different interviews the models arent final and the facial animations are yet to come. Despite that, there were so many ppl ignoring that fact just to shit on the game. Shit on the game for .........no facial animations despite the evidence being right in front of them.
 
Teletraan1

Teletraan1

Banned
Pixieking said:
Really?

I mean, really?

Death Threats Follow Small Call Of Duty Tweak

The Nasty Twitter Hate Sent To the Former Face of Call of Duty
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Twitter is a garbage communications tool. This applies to any topic. 140 characters to explain anything is not going to work. This developers opinion broken up into a million tweets should be proof and example enough of this. It is simply not a suitable tool to convey information properly and it is a fucking shame that society has latched onto this garbage platform for people to basically say little of value in 140 characters. If developers and publishers want to convey information properly and interact and educate potential consumers they can. I love a game called Factorio. Every friday the devs post a friday facts blog to talk about what they are working on, some challenges they are facing and it is very informative and occasionally technical. It directly shows up in the news feed for the game on Steam. If every developer was able to convey information like this it would help bridge the gap between the audience and the people making the games and help stamp out these uninformed opinions eventually. The more people who are informed about something the more people there will be to speak up when someone is giving out wrong information on the subject. It certainly doesn't hurt, there will always be idiots on the internet for everything but treating everyone like these idiots doesn't help change anything.
 
S

scitek

Member
I get his point that things are too negative, and dwelling on them is not healthy, but some things need to be called out or else they'll just get worse. Remember online passes? That was some absolute horseshit from publishers and likely wouldn't have been done away with without pushback from customers. That time Ubisoft tried to make all their PC games require an internet connection? Same thing. I realize I'm not specifically talking about developer decisions, and he is, but there are times when "just move on" is not a reasonable response.
 
M

manhack

Member
The funny thing is every single OT I follow in NeoGAF is full of generic criticisms like "lazy devs", "how could it take this long to implement X, they have tons of money" and even worse. I'm not talking about rational stuff like "I don't like X feature, I wish they would change it to Y" type stuff.

I've even seen developers try to defend themselves here and get blasted.

Now imagine dealing with that in an un-moderated environment.
 
TheThreadsThatBindUs

TheThreadsThatBindUs

Member
manhack said:
The funny thing is every single OT I follow in NeoGAF is full of generic criticisms like "lazy devs", "how could it take this long to implement X, they have tons of money" and even worse. I'm not talking about rational stuff like "I don't like X feature, I wish they would change it to Y" type stuff.

I've even seen developers try to defend themselves here and get blasted.

Now imagine dealing with that in an un-moderated environment.
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I don't frequent too many OTs, but I cannot agree that this is my experience of NeoGaf.

Most OTs and thread in general on NeoGaf have 3-4 sensible posters (who aren't even developers) for every uninformed one, who will correct complaints based on unrealistic assumptions.

To paint an entire forum based on the posts of a few uninformed posters is a little unrealistic in and of itself. There isn't any sphere of discussion, both on and offline where uninformed people won't air their views.

The issue is not that uninformed people post, it's how those posts are treated in relation to the ongoing consensus of discussion.
 
M

manhack

Member
TheThreadsThatBindUs said:
To paint an entire forum based on the posts of a few uninformed posters is a little unrealistic in and of itself. There isn't any sphere of discussion, both on and offline where uninformed people won't air their views.
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"Full of" was a bad choice of words and you are closer to the matter. Lots of good discussion and a few bad apples.
 
M

MoonFrog

Member
StoneFox said:
Mainly I take their opinions with a grain of salt. Sure it can be constructive at times, but ultimately it's how long they take to navigate menus, how much they can grasp basic mechanics and how quickly they can reach the goal that is more important than their opinions on surface level details. I'm not speaking for every developer of course, but in my opinion play testers are there to find bugs or common problems, not really for insight into design. For instance, if there is a hurdle in the game that is a frequent issue for players, it will be tweaked. It's things of that nature that play testers are good for because developers (or at least me and a few others I've met) cannot accurately gauge the difficulty of their own games because they get too good at playing them since they know all the ins and outs.
I thought my first mobile game was easy enough to play, but when I let a few 40+ year woman play it (my main demographic I was shooting for), they couldn't really grasp it. So I had to spend a few weeks tweaking and tweaking it until they could play it pretty easily. They couldn't tell me what was the issue, only that they "didn't get it". Ultimately the game doesn't really have much difficultly to it anymore so I re-branded it as a relaxation and meditation game.

I'm kinda rambling at this point but I'm not trying to say that players deserve to be denounced for things they do not know, but sometimes the knowledge gap is too large for any meaningful conversation to happen between the two groups. But one thing I will say is that I have zero respect for people who go out of their way to harass developers.
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I think it would be finding what they say to somehow resonate with a modification to your vision, which you come to believe in. Like Aonuma describes settling on making BotW so open. He says he heard the frequent criticism that Zelda games lack freedom and openness and came to feel that himself and this led to the direction BotW took. Obviously, it didn't tell him how to make BotW open and there is a lot of great design there, but on a very basic level, BotW is intended to answer a frequent criticism of Zelda in Nintendo's own way. Notably, it has resonated with fans and is doing very well for a modern Zelda game.

That kind of story reminds me of writing academic papers. You want advice from a multitude of people who have a varying degree of interest in and knowledge about your project. You want to be able to answer their concerns as best you can while simultaneously not bending your paper to the shape of their concern. You want it to still be your paper. Or you want to know what concerns you can't answer and how that ought to effect change in the scope of your paper. But in either case, you want to come back with a paper that does more than just answer criticism. You want to come back with a paper where you've honed your idea on your own terms through dealing with criticism.

But yeah, I can get this not always being the case. And I can get playtesting having very particular meaning to you.
 
mckmas8808

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
TC McQueen said:
I dunno, isn't like 99% of this due to the fact that game developers don't tell the general gaming public how hard this stuff is? If no one ever spreads the information about how costly it is to implement multiplayer or switch engines, why would you expect the average joe to realize how damn hard/expensive it is?
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McQueen hit the nail on the HEAD! Not giving your side of the story is always a loser at the end of the day. It gives means the only people talking are the ones with no idea on how games are made.
 
A

aftercompletion

Banned
mckmas8808 said:
McQueen hit the nail on the HEAD! Not giving your side of the story is always a loser at the end of the day. It gives means the only people talking are the ones with no idea on how games are made.
Click to expand...

Man, you're so right, look how well that worked right here on NeoGaf just a couple hours ago!

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=250076514&postcount=14171
zEymBzk.png
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Rexatality said:
Sometimes Bungie are just being bad in their design decisions that hurts their players in the long run. Sometimes, they need to be punished
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T

tuxfool

Banned
mckmas8808 said:
McQueen hit the nail on the HEAD! Not giving your side of the story is always a loser at the end of the day. It gives means the only people talking are the ones with no idea on how games are made.
Click to expand...

Nope, not really. If people can't work with the information they have now, and there is plenty out there if you care to look, more information isn't going to help.
 
Patrick S.

Patrick S.

Banned
Back in like 2002, on PlanetCrap we used to talk shit about this super secret forum/site for game developers called "Game Illuminati". Does that place actually exist?
 
M

MotionBlue

Member
tuxfool said:
Not really.

He is speaking in his capacity as an individual developer, and not talking about reasonable complaints/Dialogue.

Imagine in real life if a person complaining about a product, grabbed a random employee and started screaming at them, or whining at them with uninformed comments on how they should do their job? They would rightfully be removed from the premises.
Click to expand...

Have you never worked retail? This can and does happen. A majority of the time nothing happens.
 
T

tuxfool

Banned
MotionBlue said:
Have you never worked retail? This can and does happen. A majority of the time nothing happens.
Click to expand...

Oh sure, I'm not pretending that it doesn't, but it isn't a good look. Even if nothing happened, there would be a lot of side eyes, if somebody was being disruptive then almost certainly security would be called (or it would be reasonable to do so).
 
chaos789

chaos789

Banned
I do not have a problem with game developers. It is publishers who I have the most problems with since they are the ones pushing for season passes, microtransactions, pre-order exclusive content, and loot boxes. I believe its publishers who force developers into that shit. Such as cutting content to sell to me as day one DLC. Because so called triple AAA games have to be watered down to sell 10 gazzillion copies and if they dont they are a failure because publishers do not believe in producing mid tier content anymore. Everything has to be a Call of Duty level seller or it is a bust. I know producing games is expensive but since superbunnyhop exposed these publishers for creating tax havens and other nefarious corporate shit, I do not buy for a second any of these things they promote such as microtransactions for paid games are necessary.
 
M

MotionBlue

Member
tuxfool said:
Oh sure, I'm not pretending that it doesn't, but it isn't a good look. Even if nothing happened, there would be a lot of side eyes, if somebody was being disruptive then almost certainly security would be called (or it would be reasonable to do so).
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In my opinion it's the result of corporate culture mixing with internet anonymity. Corporations rely on shady anti-consumer practices and the only outlet for consumer frustrations is talkative devs.
 
F

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
always crazy bacon said:
Years ago I used to be able to talk about what I worked on and internal stories of the games industry, when the communities were smaller and more open to learn and discuss and they were very positive discussions.
Click to expand...
Since we're discussing 'secrets' in this thread - here's one - toxicity online wasn't born a few years ago/recently - it was always there. If anything - the free-for-all forums of yore were far worse than anything I've seen in recent years, including youtube comments section.
And people using Twitter as a communication tool have no place complaining about this - they're a big part of the problem themselves.

Teletraan1 said:
If developers and publishers want to convey information properly and interact and educate potential consumers they can.
Click to expand...
The issue is wanting to learn in the first place - humans generally prefer to just follow their confirmation bias, especially in leisure activities like consuming information on the internet.
 
R

redcrayon

Member
When discussing toxic social media, there's a bit of a difference between discussing the incredibly common dislike people have for microtransactions in paid £50 games on a games forum, and weirdos whose response to a female games dev working on a game is to start stalking them. While there's a litany of problems that contribute to poor discussion (cries of 'lazy devs' from the ignorant included), I don't think what is effectively customers questioning the business model of the biggest products by the biggest companies in a global media industry that can afford to buy wall-to-wall advertising space each year is in any way unfair. As long as its done so without posters being a total wanker about it.
 
S

Stallion Dan

Member
"We don't talk about it and let people understand because people don't understand and make negative comments based on not understanding"

Also shitty using a minority subset of gamers to excuse not answering to any.
 
P

platypotamus

Member
Stallion Dan said:
"We don't talk about it and let people understand because people don't understand and make negative comments based on not understanding"

Also shitty using a minority subset of gamers to excuse not answering to any.
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"Hey man, only SOME of us will send you death threats because we have opinions about the entertainment you create, that's not a reason to avoid talking to ALL of us"
 
P

platypotamus

Member
Stallion Dan said:
If people blocked everyone anywhere you find assholes nobody would ever talk to anyone anywhere.
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My wife has never gotten a death threat from a patient, and she's literally taken care of a few felons restrained to their hospital beds with a cop assigned to their room at all times
 
L

Lady Gaia

Member
Stallion Dan said:
"We don't talk about it and let people understand because people don't understand and make negative comments based on not understanding"
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How many times do you think someone is required to try before they finally conclude that it's a lost cause? This isn't a one-and-done situation. Developers are constantly trying to educate the general public about the challenges of software development, but it's a huge uphill struggle that doesn't yield nearly enough positive response to balance out the overwhelming negativity.

Also shitty using a minority subset of gamers to excuse not answering to any.
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That minority is a surprisingly large and incredibly vocal community that the rest of our community doesn't feel compelled to call out with enough regularity to curb the behavior. They have a direct impact on the viability of making a living as a game developer.
 
B

Bronetta

Ask me about the moon landing or the temperature at which jet fuel burns. You may be surprised at what you learn.
I didnt read the entire thread so this might have been covered but:

I think developers do a phenomenal job, most games are better than they've ever been. Its the publishers who come in and mess it up for both the devs and the gamer.

Take Shadow of War for example: I have no doubt it will be a fantastic game. I saw that big 15 minute trailer they had around E3 and it got me excited for the game. The devs took everything and made it bigger and better.

Then the publisher came and sullied the good work the devs did. We got microtransactions in a single player game, we got charity DLC with the proceeds not even going to charity in most of the world. These are the things people are upset about and it can be blamed on the publishing side.

Sure publishers are paying the bills and keeping studios open but to them its also just a product they want to maximize profits off as much as possible.

Ill give a personal example: Arkane is one of my favorite studios around at the moment, Im absolutely all in day 1 on everything they make. But I dont like their publisher at all. So often times in interviews Im not even hearing the truth from Arkane, Im hearing the Bethesda approved message that PR cant deviate from.

Heck often times, developers cant even express their true feelings and thoughts because the publisher has them on a gag order and everything has to go through PR to stay on message.
 
H

HP_Wuvcraft

Banned
Sini said:
Even making people who normally wouldn't gamble addicted to it doesn't count as exploitation? Huh?
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Gaming addiction is a serious issue, so please do not try to use it as a chip you can play on an online forum. Especially if your opening salvo includes the phrase "making". That's just like saying you're forced to buy DLC.
 
S

Stallion Dan

Member
Lady Gaia said:
How many times do you think someone is required to try before they finally conclude that it's a lost cause? This isn't a one-and-done situation. Developers are constantly trying to educate the general public about the challenges of software development, but it's a huge uphill struggle that doesn't yield nearly enough positive response to balance out the overwhelming negativity.

That minority is a surprisingly large and incredibly vocal community that the rest of our community doesn't feel compelled to call out with enough regularity to curb the behavior. They have a direct impact on the viability of making a living as a game developer.
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If I gave up when confronted with assholes I would have been unemployed the last 10 years. You tolerate them for the benefit of others and ultimately yourself.
 
s_mirage

s_mirage

Member
Teletraan1 said:
Twitter is a garbage communications tool. This applies to any topic. 140 characters to explain anything is not going to work. This developers opinion broken up into a million tweets should be proof and example enough of this. It is simply not a suitable tool to convey information properly and it is a fucking shame that society has latched onto this garbage platform for people to basically say little of value in 140 characters. If developers and publishers want to convey information properly and interact and educate potential consumers they can.
Click to expand...

I have to say that I agree. While Twitter isn't the cause of the unacceptable personal harassment of developers, I do wonder if its near ubiquity as a source of comment has, to an extent, helped to further a cycle of negative interaction between developers/publishers and their customers.

I barely use Twitter myself but have on occasion taken to it to express my displeasure at decisions publishers have made. However, I now typically refrain from doing so for very simply reasons that quickly made themselves apparent: while I generally try to be polite during my interactions with others, I find that this is nearly impossible in English, with a 140 character limit, while still retaining significant meaning in the tweet. Any tweets expressing concerns tend to come across as terse, and possibly hostile or rude, when forced into such a small limit. Even multi-tweets will suffer from this to an extent unless they're properly drafted first (they tend to be horrible to read even then). On the other hand, aggressive comments with no finesse seem to be what Twitter was designed for.

Given that, it makes me wonder if Twitter's popularity has, as a consequence of its severe but intentional shortcomings as a communications platform, helped to grow the aura of antagonism between the gaming public and the games industry. It's given everyone a voice, but it's a voice that's only really capable of shouting.
 
T

Terrell

Member
I think a major part of the problem is that developers don't stand openly united with one another to combat toxicity in a public way.
You didn't see a lot of universal condemnation of Gamergate from publishers, hardware makers or developers; few industry professionals were standing in united solidarity against it. It may have been that way in private, but not openly or publicly, which makes it invisible unless you have wide industry connections. Instead, it was up to consumers, the press and those harassed by GG to fight that battle almost alone.
Perhaps if developers didn't have to stand alone when addressing the public, they'd be able to be more open with the public. But that seems to not be the case and I have no clear answer for why things are that way.

Visible support systems are important to everyone.
 
P

Pixieking

Banned
Teletraan1 said:
The more people who are informed about something the more people there will be to speak up when someone is giving out wrong information on the subject. It certainly doesn't hurt, there will always be idiots on the internet for everything but treating everyone like these idiots doesn't help change anything.
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The problem isn't the number of idiots, it's their excessive venom. People are uneducated, and that's fine, but when a subset of a group respond with swearing and vicious insults - like that Bungie example a few posts up - why bother? Your argument that
If every developer was able to convey information like this it would help bridge the gap between the audience and the people making the games and help stamp out these uninformed opinions eventually.
Click to expand...

goes out the window when a) Bungie responded with a reasonable answer on Twitter about why they changed what they changed, and b) posters on Gaf lashed out. A clearer example of the random flailing that a loud minority of the games community does could not be found if you tried.
 
L

Lady Gaia

Member
Stallion Dan said:
If I gave up when confronted with assholes I would have been unemployed the last 10 years.
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If I dedicated time professionally trying to convince naysayers to change their minds I'd waste untold hours and never get anything done. Instead I do it here. ;-)

You tolerate them for the benefit of others and ultimately yourself.
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Suit yourself. I don't tolerate unreasoned negativity. I focus my time and energy in areas where I can make a difference and I've done extraordinarily well for myself as a result. I could retire tomorrow, but I stay employed because I get to mentor bright young people and help shape products used by millions.

Terrell said:
I think a major part of the problem is that developers don't stand openly united with one another to combat toxicity in a public way.
Click to expand...

Why step into the line of fire when you've learned the hard way that the public doesn't relent? This will only end when gamers as a community decide to call out their own consistently.
 
T

Terrell

Member
Lady Gaia said:
Why step into the line of fire when you've learned the hard way that the public doesn't relent? This will only end when gamers as a community decide to call out their own consistently.
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It's easier to speak your mind when you know someone is going to stand behind you in the moment.
It also prevents the vocal few from being lightning rods for that kind of behaviour like they are now and spreads the burden thinner.
It also shows that the development community and the industry don't stand for that behaviour instead of silently condoning it in public and hating it in private.
A united front also works to quell the behaviour if industry professionals that gamers respect don't tolerate the behaviour openly.

I mean, I could list a number of other reasons. And none of them relieve reasonable gamers themselves from their part of the solution. It's a collective effort. But like all other aspects of the industry, the companies that make up the industry hold the most power over what the industry becomes and they're not afraid to exercise that power in other ways, so it's puzzling why this specific area shows them using none of it.

EDIT:
Pixieking said:
Yup. I'm reminded of the people defending PDP for saying the N word recently. Why on God's Green Earth would any developer who is also a person of colour step into a community that tolerates that sort of abuse? If the community can't police its own and shut down negativity and intolerance, why would anyone - regardless of ethnicity or gender - willingly interact with it?
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If the industry showed any ability to defend other developers instead of leaving them out on that limb alone, they'd feel a lot better about entering the industry. That's kind of the point.
 
P

Pixieking

Banned
Lady Gaia said:
Why step into the line of fire when you've learned the hard way that the public doesn't relent? This will only end when gamers as a community decide to call out their own consistently.
Click to expand...

Yup. I'm reminded of the people defending PDP for saying the N word recently. Why on God's Green Earth would any developer who is also a person of colour step into a community that tolerates that sort of abuse? If the community can't police its own and shut down negativity and intolerance, why would anyone - regardless of ethnicity or gender - willingly interact with it?
 
P

PshycoNinja

Member
Canucked said:
Dwelling on something you hate is a big problem in gaming. Hate it, fine. Articulate your points if needed.

But I see people on gaf all the time who will jump into every thread related to something they hate for months just to remind everyone. Not healthy.
Click to expand...

DING DING DING
 
P

Pixieking

Banned
Terrell said:
If the industry showed any ability to defend other developers, they'd feel a lot better about entering the industry. That's kind of the point.
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Chicken/Egg situation. I think it's more on the community to show respect first, but it's not like this is just an either/or - the whole eco-system is screwed, and everyone needs to chip in. When GG first surfaced, I thought it would be great to have a non-profit, industry-backed, organisation dealing with bullying, intolerance and abuse, but it never happened. When the whole system resembles a bad school - a loud minority who abuse, show disrespect, and just want to lash out in anger, egged on by bad apples from within and without (Milo, that Baldwin guy) - then maybe treating it like a school is the first step to making it better?
 
U

Unfriendly TimeTraveler

Member
I kinda agree with the YouTube personalities being a bit of the problem. Well more or less the followers of them. People become too focused on getting the point across that the youtuber has but doesn't care so much of the wording of it or how it be interpreted.

Personal attacks or insults towards a dev about the quality of their game does nothing constructive and should be frowned upon.

Though can't say it's looking like people are going to change anytime soon, while looking at the 343 recent thread it's saddening.
 
T

Terrell

Member
Pixieking said:
Chicken/Egg situation. I think it's more on the community to show respect first, but it's not like this is just an either/or - the whole eco-system is screwed, and everyone needs to chip in. When GG first surfaced, I thought it would be great to have a non-profit, industry-backed, organisation dealing with bullying, intolerance and abuse, but it never happened. When the whole system resembles a bad school - a loud minority who abuse, show disrespect, and just want to lash out in anger, egged on by bad apples from within and without (Milo, that Baldwin guy) - then maybe treating it like a school is the first step to making it better?
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I said as much, everyone that's a part of this industry has a part to play. But the consumer population is greatly dispersed and exceptionally large, so any effort we make takes a lot longer. The industry is a lot fewer people, who all talk to one another and agree that this behaviour is wrong, but when someone is attacked online, they're always on their own. A smaller group can unite and mobilize a lot faster than a larger and more disparate one and one shouldn't have to precede the other.

To use your school analogy, you're suggesting that fixing a school is more up to the student body and the administration and faculty have somehow less responsibility, despite having the greatest power to change things. And when someone in the faculty tries to fix things, you would expect the rest of the faculty to stand up for them when it's clearly the right thing to do, yet instead that teacher is left to fend off any backlash on their own.

You see the issue with that when framed in your analogy, right?
 
M

Mass_Pincup

Banned
I wonder if that type of behaviour also happen at fan event like PSX or PAX and stuff like that where gamers and developers can interect directly with one another.
 
H

HP_Wuvcraft

Banned
Mass_Pincup said:
I wonder if that type of behaviour also happen at fan event like PSX or PAX and stuff like that where gamers and developers can interect directly with one another.
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Some dude a few years ago came up to our booth [not at either of the cons you mentioned] and started going after our games (female) artist.

I promptly told him that I'd call security if he ever came back to our booth (a stupid bluff, I know, but they fell for it).

At another con, one of my friends was at their booth when some guys came up and started grilling him about DLC.

So it definitely happens.
 
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