dragonlife
Member
This is why I rarely engage in actual discussions about video games. I just stick to my "I love this game!" Or "Eh, I didn't really like it" comments.
Not really, he does say "Being critical and explaining why you don't like something is fine." He absolutely isn't against level-headed criticism and feedback. That's not what this is about at all.Bollocks.
He's deliberately obfuscating GameFAQs-level stupidity with valid criticism to deflect blame. I don't care how hard he thinks his job is, his industry absolutely should be called out by the consumer for loot boxes and selling broken games.
No, that's why it wasn't in my first post in this thread. However it get brought up very quickly on any discussion about devs/public relationship.This feels like it's related to what the OP is about, but it's not really.
Going "all in" on things I don't like is just about the only way I get enjoyment from them. Picking it apart and holding everything I disliked up to the light.
As a DC fan Batman v Superman was such a disappointment, but discussing its flaws has been quite fun.
Like how embarrassing NeoGaf was to be around during the pre-launch window for Mass Effect Andromeda. You have posters that couldn't give a shit about the game drive-by posting in any thread they could find plastering those damned gifs. I almost quit this forum during that time and I've been around here for a long time.
I dunno, isn't like 99% of this due to the fact that game developers don't tell the general gaming public how hard this stuff is? If no one ever spreads the information about how costly it is to implement multiplayer or switch engines, why would you expect the average joe to realize how damn hard/expensive it is?
Sorry yeah, I agree with it. I just think when people start going into that territory, people start misunderstanding it as the position of the dev, which is why these posts have to be made:No, that's why it wasn't in my first post in this thread. However it get brought up very quickly on any discussion about devs/public relationship.
Not really, he does say "Being critical and explaining why you don't like something is fine." He absolutely isn't against level-headed criticism and feedback. That's not what this is about at all.
Not to mention a lot of these things are by no means easy to explain or to understand. There are a lot of junior developers who maybe understand that some these things are hard or expensive, but when it comes complex game projects, you have to have years of experience and seen the process to truly comprehend the details involved and take for example all topics about budgets. So often do I see people here respond that games simply cost too much money to make "because of developers", when the complexities can be so big and the reality of it so hard to understand.Probably because when developers literally tell people how hard something is, people will actually get mad at them for telling them it's hard, or start threatening them, or various shit you never know is coming.
Another issue is that people will lambast a movie, but they generally won't call up and threaten the person that set up the lighting. The gaming community will.
I dunno, isn't like 99% of this due to the fact that game developers don't tell the general gaming public how hard this stuff is? If no one ever spreads the information about how costly it is to implement multiplayer or switch engines, why would you expect the average joe to realize how damn hard/expensive it is?
Like how embarrassing NeoGaf was to be around during the pre-launch window for Mass Effect Andromeda. You have posters that couldn't give a shit about the game drive-by posting in any thread they could find plastering those damned gifs. I almost quit this forum during that time and I've been around here for a long time.
I would say that people would be more willing to be okay with games being announced at or before they entered development if the publisher said "this game is coming out in five years" instead of being cagey.
Lmao isn't this presumption that you know more than a game developer exactly what Charles is talking about?Maybe this guy is telling from his personal experience as a developer but I pretty much doubt he knows whats happening in the offices of the 3 big ones.
Charles used to post on PlanetCrap. He once wrote a lengthy statement that he was no longer at Ubisoft and was moving on to other things. Then he admitted, in a thread that was in the archive of the site but still active, that this was a "ruse" (his words) to get people off his back because dealing with people was awful. That was some time after Assassin's Creed came out.
There is a playable build and while it has been progressing over the years, it's still a very far cry from a full game.
They do put in a lot of effort into keeping up with their community and try to be transparent with their deadlines, but at this point I'm actually tired of the flood of news and updates that they keep throwing at me. I'd rather they redirect some of the resources they spend on PR towards game dev.
I remember Skullgirls getting some shit during their Indiegogo because people didn't believe the game should cost that much money to get made. It still occasionally happens occasionally with other games. People are often convinced that they know how game development really is, and that it's easier or cheaper than it is when devs say otherwise.
Fake edit: I see someone posted links to a relevant thread already. I'm too slow!
Star Citizen's main PR issue is that the game development is simultaneously easy when they announce a new feature or an impossible to reach deadline.
I don't really agree, but context matters.
I think No Man's Sky fans had a right to be upset, so did Destiny fans.
If Valve was upfront about HL3 there would be a lot less vitriol in the long run.
So they blame the rest of us because of some loud assholes?
Lmao isn't this presumption that you know more than a game developer exactly what Charles is talking about?
You know who said or tried to say indirectly that the games on ps4 should look better than on xbox!?
Sony on the day the demoed ps4 for the first time. You have 8gb of ram! Many people at the time could only speak and talk about that.
As the marketing teams speak, the developers keep their silence and people take for granted what the sales people, like reggie fils aime, say as true.
The switch is the best thing ever. If u dont have a 3ds, whats the matter with you!
This has never been the case. I'd like to see these examples of easy things they said they did. I also notice that a lot of people happily project their prejudices on a lot of things the developers say and it colours their view regardless of the intent or what they're actually saying.
Lmao isn't this presumption that you know more than a game developer exactly what Charles is talking about?
Saying an update would be out last year when a feature limited version* of it still isn't out nearly a year later is an example of selective ease of development as the hype cycle requires.
*yes it will be a feature limited version for the players at least if not in technical content.
As a lazy dev who is reading NeoGAF instead of developing software features right this second...
We exist. 🙂
Granted, I haven't been developing in the games industry for a long time.
I don't know how one can be a lazy developer in the games industry.
It's 200% work work work crunch crunch crunch get it done yesterday...
I couldn't take that grind. I missed my family and now I work in a software development job where we don't have those kinds of deadlines.
But yeah, if you're making games for a studio under a major publisher, you're not lazy... Overworked, sure. But not lazy.
Edit: also, I cant imagine working in the games industry today. When I was in the industry, it was long before Twitter and Facebook and social media. If we wanted feedback from players we either had to find them, scour fan sites, or hope people would post on our message boards.
Now I feel companies probably wish they got less of the kind of "overt" feedback they get.
So they blame the rest of us because of some loud assholes?
ITT: people prove his point.
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This doesn't just happen with jaded gamers, this happens with "developers", too. Right here on GAF a dev openly attacked another dev calling a post-process addition they made to their game since their Kickstarter a "bait and switch". They added a visual effect and were accused of pulling one over on Kickstarter backers.
That's some stupid ass shit.
A similar thing happened with another game. Developer wanted to crowdfund money for a port, half the responses were people calling them liars for saying a port would cost that much.. when they were actually a relatively cheap port.
Got any names I can google to see more about this?
I believe it. To me someone doing something so technical for the industry equivalent of fifty bucks and a few beers should set off warning alarms that it's probably not going to get done to a standard most people would be fine paying for. On the off chance, do you remember any relevant names for this project? I'm having fun going over the old Skullgirls thread and looking for similar entertainment.
This isn't supposed to be me chastising you as much as it is supposed to be a testament to how complex these things are, but I thought I knew things about software when I graduated but I didn't actually know anything. A year to two years in, I thought I was beginning to get a handle of how much I needed to learn but I was still naive. I'm sure two or three years down from now, I'm going to look back to now and think about how dumb I was for thinking I knew things.And this is why I dont go into armchair dev discussions. Im currently in school hoping to become a dev someday and I know how hard it is. Ive always appreciated the work that goes into game development.
Does what happens in this thread really qualify as toxic? I just see some people disagreeing with certain points.ITT: people prove his point.
On the public and developers being candid:
I am someone that runs an independent games company. The size and amount of games doesn't matter. I have multiple women that work with me in this company that we've all assembled together. For public interaction, and even in credits, they prefer to have me be a proxy name and the company as a proxy brand they work under than reveal they are women working on a game. Because they will get harassment to the point of having to shut off public-facing accounts and/or weird messages from gamers.
One time I messed up a level in a game I worked on. It was all my fault - but someone found out my female friend and co-worker was the artist that worked on arting the level afterwards. Did they come after me? Nope. They went after her. I spent a bunch of time publicly trying to get them to go away; I publicly made it clear I was the one responsible for the poor execution of said level, that I was the one they should be critiquing - but they would not relent. There was an entire thread on a forum dedicated to talking about her.
Being candid about even -working on a game- cost her the ability to have a social media account. The things some people will post about a developer get deeply personal with no prompting or escalation by a developer, just for perceive slights of being "owed", and for women working on a game you just add an automatic 50x multiplier making it even more worse and more personal. For a male developer saying something was due to our engine not being there yet, we will be called lazy. For a woman that talks about an engine not being there yet, she'll be called dumb.
Forwarded anonymously because posting this under an actual name would defeat the point of my friends using my company as a proxy for their work.
Fits into this topic I think. I agree with Randall and Bleszinski both. Nothing bothers and disappoints me more in this industry than the consumers. Not "lazy devs" or "greedy pubs", but obnoxious assholes.
A developer passed this note on to me, and asked to be anonymous for obvious reasons:
To be honest this varies so much between project and if you take into account all disciplines and factors like marketing strategy, platform relations there rarely is a clear line to be seen. Publishers themselves are rarely "Project Management" and deal more in high-level product and portfolio strategy and greenlighting high-level decisions. Almost always the project management staff is still considered to be development team staff (so Game Directors, Executive Producers, Project Managers, Development Managers etc. are dev team staff, not publishing staff), and of course they work constantly with the developers themselves.I'm glad this was brought up.
One thing that would help me immensely is to know/understand what developers are generally responsible for, as compared to publishers.
For example, in some industries, developers are generally the people focused on the various aspects of the product, but importantly things related to its technical existence: design, implementation, test, etc.
Then "the publisher" (Project Management staff) is the entity responsible for paying for the development costs. They also drive the overall schedule based on customer needs, but in this example case the Project Management can work together with developers to understand what features can be delivered in the required time. Quite often, schedules are ambitious, so sacrifices have to be made.
I wish I better understood what the different responsible are between the developers and the publishers. I feel like this can help heighten the level of discourse about game development. (For example, if people understood the different roles, they would rarely -- if ever -- type stuff like "LOL lazy developers!!" since overall schedules may be driven by the publisher, not the developer).
Honestly, it does feel like it's getting worse and worse for developers. This year at GDC I had some somber talks with people who were about to leave the industry because of personal attacks, and the feeling like you can't work with the community anymore, and whilst there were celebrations of the industry within getting more diverse and slowly starting fix some of it's shit finally (though these deeply rooted problems are being fixed at a snail's place outside of the mobile industry), same could not be said for community related topics.There's a serious issue going in this industry. Seems each this toxic environment just gets worse.
A developer passed this note on to me, and asked to be anonymous for obvious reasons:
My gut guess is, the snip
I know you can't comment