Support NeoGAF

[autoduelist]

The toxicity is real. And hyperbole everywhere. Including on this forum, which is actually, in some ways, better than most [unless something like frame rate is being discussed]. Every game someone doesn't like gets roasted for the smallest infractions.

 

[Kor of Memory]

I think I've only times I have ever got upset and posted negatively about a developer was after I felt lied to by the Community Managers.

The most recent being the shit going on between Bungie's Destiny stuff. I mean, the community literally caught the devs in a lie, and only after a month of straight up accusations did they finally cave and admit the lie was a social experiment...

 

[PeskyToaster]

He makes some good points, however, the one about how the movie industry manages to be candid feels actually more like a counterpoint to me because the community surrounding movies can be incredibly toxic as well and yet do the studios manage to be candid.

And of course is it tough to show off games when so much can change during development, but to be not open about those changes and to just pretend that Watchdogs still looked the same as the E3 demonstration only fuels the hate

There shouldn't be any hate to fuel though. No one should feel strongly enough about a Watch Dogs graphical downgrade that hate is an appropriate word to describe it. That's the problem with the gaming community. It's weird to have such a reaction to that type of thing.

 

[KORNdoggy]

I'm struggling to think of aspects that consumers want game developers to be more candid about.

If they're talking about techniques GDC panels are watchable by the public. Otherwise it's a seller/buyer relationship, and that isn't conducive to being candid.

this.

i expect most people want devs/publishers to be candid about aspects that would probably hurt their sales if they were, so you can understand why they're not from a business perspective...but i imagine most people just want the hear the truth regarding things like why there are micro transactions in single player games, or why a game is online only? people don't want the marketing spin to justify it, they want the real reasons. if it's them trying to make some extra money on top of the sale of the game itself, then say so.

i don't think there are many people wanting candid discussion from devs regarding the development process itself, except for maybe instances where visual parity is in effect when one console is clearly capable of more, but even then i think it's more about the anti-consumer stuff than the development stuff.

there just seems to be this constant feeling that developers/publishers are pulling the wool over the consumers eyes because it's been clear as day that they do in the past. it can be big things like micro-transactions or pay2win models, all the way down to them exaggerating about the length a game takes to complete. i mean, you can't make some blanket statement that they're all innocent when we have the likes of EA outright lying about games like sim city and it needing to be online only. and that's just one example off the top of my head.

if devs/pubs actually started being candid, maybe gamers wouldn't be as toxic? i mean, how do you expect people to act when they're consistently lied to in a bid to get them to drop $60 on a new game?

 

[d9b]

"why game developers aren't more candid with public?"

 

[KJRS_1993]

There were a bunch of grown adult men cruising through Steam calling themselves "the framerate police" ffs.

 

[Baraka Obama]

Makes sense
Hopefully this is a side effect of the industry being young.

 

[CecilRousso]

Seems reasonable from him, and from other devs that follow that. People in general would rather pass judgment then try to learn, always believe things that goes wrong with a game happen out of malice, and youtube personalities are to often judgemental and condescending without backing it up with much.

The reactions to the Double Fine Adventure documentary probably did a lot to scare away other devs to be to open, when it's really an great insight into development, and an opportunity to learn more.

 

[enzo_gt]

I completely understand where he's coming from, and I've been complicit in a lot of this shitty behaviour in the past. Now in discussions I tend to play devil's advocate from the developer's perspective and it feels like a real tightrope between that and being called a shill because you can rationalize why thing the way they are for internal and external reasons and not necessarily agree with them, but man, at times it's hard not to feel like the lust for putting more money into the graphical arms race, and indies pushing out barebones games have pushed consumers to desire a bit more values from games that are inflating in price but not necessarily in content (at least from a Canadian's perspective).

 

[Aostia]

I'm with Randall on this.

 

[Budi]

Fits into this topic I think. I agree with Randall and Bleszinski both. Nothing bothers and disappoints me more in this industry than the consumers. Not "lazy devs" or "greedy pubs", but obnoxious assholes.

 

[Niceguydan8]

I think I've only times I have ever got upset and posted negatively about a developer was after I felt lied to by the Community Managers.

The most recent being the shit going on between Bungie's Destiny stuff. I mean, the community literally caught the devs in a lie, and only after a month of straight up accusations did they finally cave and admit the lie was a social experiment...

I don't know anything about that, but it sounds interesting. Can you elaborate or provide a link for me to read more about it?

 

[MoonFrog]

I'm struggling to think of aspects that consumers want game developers to be more candid about.

If they're talking about techniques GDC panels are watchable by the public. Otherwise it's a seller/buyer relationship, and that isn't conducive to being candid.

I really loved Iwata Asks, for example, and hearing stories about why they did something or the beliefs behind doing such.

I wouldn't be able to understand a technical deep dive. Design stuff though, that's interesting to me.

 

[Rumblebones]

Everything he's posted is 100% true and applicable even to this forum, which is depressing considering how well moderated this place tends to be.

Sometimes companies pull shady shit, but developers don't make those decisions, they just want to do what they love to do, and that's making games.

I am not saying gamers shouldn't stand up to anti consumer practices (of which there are many constantly bubbling to the surface), but I definitely have a problem with the level of entitlement I see even here every day, and the subsequent toxicity and harassment I see forming in other communities I visit during the day.

So help any dev working on inclusive games. That's just a hate multiplier. And so is being a woman. And a minority. And don't you dare be both.

Perhaps it speaks to the immaturity of the industry, but I don't want to have that excuse put out there. There is no rationalising harassment, and there certainly is no justification for it either.

It's my hope we can one day celebrate figures in the gaming industry like we do in film. Sure, we do that with certain developers like Kojima, to use one example, but there are so many more worthy individuals in this industry that deserves widespread recognition. Unfortunately we're still a ways off.

 

[Canucked]

It's a discussion forum. It's the flipside of effusive praise. People feel strongly about things, positive or negative. That's true throughout life - you can't just get the good. It's all different shades of caring about something.

For instance MvCI has gotten a lot of shit, but that's because people care about the franchise. No Man's Sky got a lot of shit, but that's because people got invested in the idea and felt lied to.

It's just how fandom works.

No, I don't buy fandom as an excuse. I'm a fan of lots of things, and I dislike some media. But when I dislike New Game X I'm not going into every thread about it. I'm not derailing the Box Art thread to paste my 13
Reasons Why I hate it. There's good debate on value and then there is obession.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

I dunno, isn't like 99% of this due to the fact that game developers don't tell the general gaming public how hard this stuff is? If no one ever spreads the information about how costly it is to implement multiplayer or switch engines, why would you expect the average joe to realize how damn hard/expensive it is?

The whole point is they've tried in the past and all it results in is a bunch of unqualified 4chan users harassing them 24/7.

I'd be entirely surprised if the quoted tweets in the op haven't caused the poor guy to get a new wave of harrasment. I know I'm equally guilty of doing it and that I'm an absolute arsehole when I'm doing it, and have been trying to scale it down (and am well aware of some people would disagree that I'm even trying...).

 

[Budi]

Lay off the ad hominem. I've been guilty of this, and it's partly because we're in communities that foster it. It's time to do some self-reflection and think twice before what you're about to say publicly because it's possibly going to be heard by who we are targeting.

Happy to see you've had a change of heart.

 

[LAA]

Disappointing and sadly understandable to hear.
The "shortcuts and tricks" discussed a little while ago was really interesting actually, I'd love to hear more along those lines.

 

[Lunar15]

That's PR 101. It's really not exclusive to the gaming industry, even though I think the game industry suffers from it pretty bad due to the audience.

Criticism is necessary, but a lot of times no one takes into account the myriad of factors that go into a game. It's important to call out companies for real, actual bullshit. Extremely important. But it's hard when you have zero industry experience.

Also, the overall snarkiness factor of the internet has become downright oppressive in recent years. Any joe schmoe can hop on a youtube account and explain why X game has horrible game design without any experience in game design whatsoever. There's constructive criticism, and then there's just shitting over anything and everything.

 

[PeskyToaster]

Makes sense
Hopefully this is a side effect of the industry being young.

I think one of the biggest problems in the industry is the lack of an educated, academic corps of critics. They get scorned as ivory tower recluses while "this movie is made for the fans!" but their absence is very apparent when looking at the state of gaming writing, themes, character depth, plot complexity, plot elegant simplicity, and all sorts of things. Different from the programming side but it's needed if the medium wants to really resonate with people and deliver more powerful works. I guess some would say gameplay is king but you don't have to sacrifice it to elevate your work with lessons from the literary and film world. The enthusiast press does not help you do this.

 

[Tapejara]

If you want an example of how toxic the gaming community can be, consider Randall's mention of developers being secretive about upcoming projects. In the film industry, new films are announced before they even begin filming and I don't think I've ever seen directors receive the same level of virtol as developers do. Colin Trevorrow's Jurassic World is often cited as underwhelming-to-awful by Jurassic Park fans, yet when he was slated to direct Episode IX the worst I saw from Star Wars fans I mostly saw cautious optimism and at worst, worries about the quality of the film. Nothing about fan outrage, or petitions to get him fired.

Now, consider if Capcom announced Ninja Theory was making DmC 2. Do you think that would get the same level-headed response from the gaming community? Or is it more likely that gamers would express large amounts of hatred towards the sequel from a talented developer to a game that by all accounts is pretty damn good just because it's not what they wanted?

 

[Soulblighter31]

Anyone have a link about that design tricks that got people angry that he mentions in his first tweets ?

 

[Weltall Zero]

I dunno, isn't like 99% of this due to the fact that game developers don't tell the general gaming public how hard this stuff is? If no one ever spreads the information about how costly it is to implement multiplayer or switch engines, why would you expect the average joe to realize how damn hard/expensive it is?

Why would you expect the average joe to believe devs when they say how hard it is? I have a huge amount of difficulty getting across how much harder game development is even to my own software engineer friends, which already know how regular complex software development is, and already have a bias to believe me because they are my friends. You really think a random joe with no development knowledge whatsoever will hear a game dev telling how hard it is and interiorize that stuff? Absolutely impossible.

I've been a (non-game) software engineer for two decades, it has always come to me naturally; I've done everything from topographical road design software to physical train simulations to real-time audio and video reencoding to telemedicine mobile apps. And game development (simple, indie, 2D game development at that) is, in many respects, more complex than that. It may be the only kind of software development I've done in the past five years that has taken 100% of my concentration to do. I knew going in it would be harder and more complex, and even then I underestimated by how much. You think you're understanding this, but believe me when I say I can't get across half of it to anyone I know, let alone strangers on a message board.

Telling people your job is hard is a complete waste of one's time. Everyone thinks their job is hard, it's not until they themselves do different jobs that they can compare. The people slinging shit at devs, in most cases, will never become even remotely close to competent enough to make their own game, so they will never know. That's the hard truth; game development, like many other jobs, will never be gauged realistically by people that have never done it.

(also as an indie dev, I can probably never fathom what developing an AAA title is like, with so many more interacting factors. In fact I get goosebumps just thinking about it).

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

If you want an example of how toxic the gaming community can be, consider Randall's mention of developers being secretive about upcoming projects. In the film industry, new films are announced before they even begin filming and I don't think I've ever seen directors receive the same level of virtol as developers do. Colin Trevorrow's Jurassic World is often cited as underwhelming-to-awful by Jurassic Park fans, yet when he was slated to direct Episode IX the worst I saw from Star Wars fans I mostly saw cautious optimism and at worst, worries about the quality of the film. Nothing about fan outrage, or petitions to get him fired.

Now, consider if Capcom announced Ninja Theory was making DmC 2. Do you think that would get the same level-headed response from the gaming community? Or is it more likely that gamers would express large amounts of hatred towards the sequel from a talented developer to a game that by all accounts is pretty damn good just because it's not what they wanted?

I think you are not reading Colin Trevorrow's reception that accurately.

There were lots of people celebrating him leaving Episode IX.

 

[Kintaro]

Sometimes companies pull shady shit, but developers don't make those decisions, they just want to do what they love to do, and that's making games.

People definitely go too far in their attacks on developers for some of this...but developers who develop shady shit (and know it's shady shit) are complicit in said shady shit. This is why Monolith AND WB are getting blowback for MTs. Why Bungie AND Activision get flack for MTs.

Developers don't get to hide behind "Well, we don't get to make those decisions!" Not where the consumer is concerned.

Of course, the consumer shouldn't act like total pricks either. This is why Jim Sterling is both a blessing and a curse in the community.

 

[Chmpocalypse]

Exactly right. The sheer amount of arrogant ignorance of the development process alone is enough to warrant never bothering to disclose information that will just be argued against or ignored.

Hell, I'm on the Overwatch team, and even here on GAF I've read tons of comments from people who clearly don't understand the first thing about game development in their rush to call devs 'lazy' or 'greedy'.

 

[Alienous]

this.

i expect most people want devs/publishers to be candid about aspects that would probably hurt their sales if they were, so you can understand why they're not from a business perspective...but i imagine most people just want the hear the truth regarding things like why there are micro transactions in single player games, or why a game is online only? people don't want the marketing spin to justify it, they want the real reasons. if it's them trying to make some extra money on top of the sale of the game itself, then say so.

i don't think there are many people wanting candid discussion from devs regarding the development process itself, except for maybe instances where visual parity is in effect when one console is clearly capable of more, but even then i think it's more about the anti-consumer stuff than the development stuff.

there just seems to be this constant feeling that developers/publishers are pulling the wool over the consumers eyes because it's been clear as day that they do in the past. it can be big things like micro-transactions or pay2win models, all the way down to them exaggerating about the length a game takes to complete. i mean, you can't make some blanket statement that they're all innocent when we have the likes of EA outright lying about games like sim city and it needing to be online only. and that's just one example off the top of my head.

if devs/pubs actually started being candid, maybe gamers wouldn't be as toxic? i mean, how do you expect people to act when they're consistently lied to in a bid to get them to drop $60 on a new game?

I'm seeing it this way too.

If developers don't want to be lumped in with publishers when it comes to anti-consumer practices they should refuse to be mouthpieces for lies.

The distrust players have of developers isn't unfounded when you hear the sheer amount "sell you the product" mistruths that come from developers, the most recent example being with Middle-Earth: Shadow of War.

If you want an example of how toxic the gaming community can be, consider Randall's mention of developers being secretive about upcoming projects. In the film industry, new films are announced before they even begin filming and I don't think I've ever seen directors receive the same level of virtol as developers do. Colin Trevorrow's Jurassic World is often cited as underwhelming-to-awful by Jurassic Park fans, yet when he was slated to direct Episode IX the worst I saw from Star Wars fans I mostly saw cautious optimism and at worst, worries about the quality of the film. Nothing about fan outrage, or petitions to get him fired.

What?

Now, consider if Capcom announced Ninja Theory was making DmC 2. Do you think that would get the same level-headed response from the gaming community? Or is it more likely that gamers would express large amounts of hatred towards the sequel from a talented developer to a game that by all accounts is pretty damn good just because it's not what they wanted?

Not because it's "not what they wanted", but perhaps because it would be seen as coming at the cost of losing a game (DMC5) that they want? It would get a passionate response, which would have positive and negative opinions.

 

[KJRS_1993]

People definitely go too far in their attacks on developers for some of this...but developers who develop shady shit (and know it's shady shit) are complicit in said shady shit.

Well that's not how real life works.

"Sorry honey, I can't pay the mortgage or feed the kids. I packed in my job because I was asked to develop a loot box".

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Makes sense. At this point I don't know why any creative person would want to have an online presence unless it really helps boost their career.

People on social media are far more likely to be shitty towards them than nice. It's probably a real diamonds in the rough situation.

 

[RichiRamjag]

Guy is so on point.

I think gamers are terrible nowadays. Between the review combining, steam forum harassment, etc, I don’t even like being in the culture other than playing the games, I keep my child away from it as well. You see it here on gaf all the time with the negativity, calling devs lazy over stupid shit, I’ve been guilty of it, we all have. We can definitely be better though.

 

[family_guy]

During development I can understand them not being more candid. However I'm one of those people that watches those movie extras that delves into the production process and wouldn't mind if they did something like that more often for games. Some games do have these featurettes, but they are very few and far between.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

I would say that people would be more willing to be okay with games being announced at or before they entered development if the publisher said "this game is coming out in five years" instead of being cagey.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

If you want an example of how toxic the gaming community can be, consider Randall's mention of developers being secretive about upcoming projects. In the film industry, new films are announced before they even begin filming and I don't think I've ever seen directors receive the same level of virtol as developers do. Colin Trevorrow's Jurassic World is often cited as underwhelming-to-awful by Jurassic Park fans, yet when he was slated to direct Episode IX the worst I saw from Star Wars fans I mostly saw cautious optimism and at worst, worries about the quality of the film. Nothing about fan outrage, or petitions to get him fired.

Now, consider if Capcom announced Ninja Theory was making DmC 2. Do you think that would get the same level-headed response from the gaming community? Or is it more likely that gamers would express large amounts of hatred towards the sequel from a talented developer to a game that by all accounts is pretty damn good just because it's not what they wanted?

1) Movie goers can talk the biggest shit if things don't go their way case-in-point BvS.

2) You're seriously misremembering how the initial DmC release played out, they had to make lot of changes to Definitive Edition. Ninja Theory might be talented, but their talent isn't in the action genre.

I would say that people would be more willing to be okay with games being announced at or before they entered development if the publisher said "this game is coming out in five years" instead of being cagey.

Because it's impossible to make that promise.

Anything can happen that would delay production.

 

[Clear]

I just wish people could generally be more enthusiastic and positive about games generally. So often these days it seems like when a game gets it 90% right, the conversation revolves almost entirely around the 10% that people have an issue with.

Relentless negativity isn't an endearing trait, especially when its often expressed in a hostile and aggressive tone. The key thing isn't that complaint or criticism is bad per se, its just that if its how you most often express yourself, its alienating.

 

[Tapejara]

I think you are not reading Colin Trevorrow's reception that accurately.

There were lots of people celebrating him leaving Episode IX.

People are happy he's no longer on the project, but the way people reacted to him being on the project is the key here. There was, to my knowledge, no organized movement to get him removed, no organized harassment campaign towards him and his family, etc. People are happy he's no longer directing, but they weren't making his life a living hell, making shitty memes about him or threatening to boycott the film because of his involvement.

What?

I concede that I wrong about that. I still don't believe the level of hate directed towards Trevorrow was anywhere near what a game developer would face, but I admit that's more of a gut feeling.

Not because it's "not what they wanted", but perhaps because it would be seen as coming at the cost of losing a game (DMC5) that they want? It would get a passionate response, which would have positive and negative opinions.

Does someone not getting the game they want warrant the vitriol that can be levied towards developers?

1) Movie goers can talk the biggest shit if things don't go their way case-in-point BvS.

2) You're seriously misremembering how the initial DmC release played out, they had to make lot of changes to Definitive Edition. Ninja Theory might be talented, but their talent isn't in the action genre.

In response to your points

1) fair enough. I don't care much about super hero films so I don't follow them much

2) DmC in its original form received critical acclaim. Yeah the DE fixed a bunch of stuff, but there's no way the original game could have been worth the anger. And I'm not saying long times series fans couldn't have been critical about it or disliked it, I'm talking about the anger directed at Ninja Theory.

 

[Alienous]

I would say that people would be more willing to be okay with games being announced at or before they entered development if the publisher said "this game is coming out in five years" instead of being cagey.

This happens quite often.

People take issue with games having misleading showings, not early announcements.

 

[Kintaro]

Well that's not how real life works.

"Sorry honey, I can't pay the mortgage or feed the kids. I packed in my job because I was asked to develop a loot box".

Pfft. This is a lie. They don't have time to see their family. =P

I didn't say they should quit. I said they will have to deal with being seen as complicit. Which they are. It's business. That is "real life."

Of course, that conversation may look different if they lose enough customers.

"Sorry honey, my company went under because people aren't buying our games anymore."

 

[methane47]

I think he's forgetting that its not all the community's fault.

I feel like gaming devs sometimes blame their community for their failings.

I think that the reason why the gaming community is so toxic is partly because we have been conditioned to be this way by the devs themselves.

 

[Skellig Gra]

Then people would complain that developers aren't open with them.

Again that's for a PR person to handle. All the amateurish back and forth is only making things worse.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

1) Movie goers can talk the biggest shit if things don't go their way case-in-point BvS.

2) You're seriously misremembering how the initial DmC release played out, they had to make lot of changes to Definitive Edition. Ninja Theory might be talented, but their talent isn't in the action genre.



Because it's impossible to make that promise.

Anything can happen that would delay production.

?

Saying "this game is coming out in 5 years" is a lot more reasonable than the stuff Square did with FF7R and KH3 where they faked gameplay footage and then just didn't say when those games were going to come out for years.

 

[nynt9]

I think he's mostly right, but it's also hard to disagree with some of his points without sounding like an asshole. Most posters here have mentioned and supported his points, so I won't go into that. But sometimes we have devs/pubs doing objectively shitty things, like gearbox or Konami and in those cases they need to be called out. However the overall toxicity is unwarranted. Things spiral pretty quickly sometimes.

What's weird is this seems exclusive to gaming. No other software development industry tries to expose its inner workings like this and no one cares for them to. The game industry has a bizarre relationship with its customers.

 

[Lime]

I definitely agree with this, but I do think there is one major thing being overlooked here.

It seems like this is the sort of space that publishers have fostered and created via their marketing and their exploitation. The people actually doing the labor are being made responsible for the ways that publishers find ways to pleasure and extract money from consumers in very deceitful ways, so the relationship between consumer and seller is highly mistrustful.

And the thing about being candid, I am not so sure about, at least in terms of the bigger developers. NDAs are a huge thing and publishers keep a tight lid on almost any form of project and working conditions. Again, publishers are shutting down transparency in order to control the message and sell as much as possible. People here on GAF go through LinkedIn and Twitter to see what projects are being worked on, and we have to rely on anonymous sources via Jason Schreier to get a modicum of insight of how the people who work on these games actually feel. And I don't buy the toxic consumers being responsble for a lack of transparency - in my own experience and interaction with the industry, NDAs is always the obstacle that force workers to remain anonymous.

At the same time, whenever developers actually appear in interviews, readers and consumers are fed a whole lot of of horseshit that the marketing director has orchestrated with a whole lot of buzz words and empty platitudes in order to build up hype once more for the next AAA product about killing people. Then when the game underperforms or don't meet the lofty expectations set up by the marketing director, consumers are then told afterwards that the developers have learned from their mistakes and they promise that the next one will be much better, so please go out and buy the next game!

Mind you, I am only referring to big publishers in the above, and keep in mind that I do recognize and acknowledge the toxicity of gamer culture and how much of a cesspool it is. I just think it's important to understand where the animosity comes from and how publishers cultivate this particular cesspool with their constant pleasuring *and* exploitation. I also acknowledge that gamers don't have any idea how fucking complex it is to create a video game and they can be very stubborn in terms of learning this.

 

[RichiRamjag]

1) Movie goers can talk the biggest shit if things don't go their way case-in-point BvS.

2) You're seriously misremembering how the initial DmC release played out, they had to make lot of changes to Definitive Edition. Ninja Theory might be talented, but their talent isn't in the action genre.



Because it's impossible to make that promise.

Anything can happen that would delay production.

Legit criticism isn’t always being toxic. I was very excited for that film, but it wasn’t a good movie and as a fan of Snyder, I didn’t think he’d be a good fit and watchmen is one of my more well-liked films. I didn’t want anything to go my way, I simply didn’t like a movie. His style worked better in watchmen for sure though.

I doubt anyone was harassing his twitter over it either way. Honestly, if you think people criticizing and moving on is the same as what the op discussed, then I don’t know what to tell you.

 

[Auctopus]

Doesn't surprise me in the slightest. I feel like gamers have the biggest disconnect with the creators of their artform in comparison to other media. Such a massive entitlement and lack of understanding for what goes in to creating a game, both artistically, technically and financially.

 

[Orca]

Anyone have a link about that design tricks that got people angry that he mentions in his first tweets ?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1427612

 

[Akuun]

deleted

 

[Slayven]

I think he's forgetting that its not all the community's fault.

I feel like gaming devs sometimes blame their community for their failings.

I think that the reason why the gaming community is so toxic is partly because we have been conditioned to be this way by the devs themselves.

It's a feedback loop.

 

[KORNdoggy]

However the overall toxicity is unwarranted. Things spiral pretty quickly sometimes.

i think this is the key thing, not to let it turn to toxicity in the first place. i mean, i'm all about complaining about crappy dev/publisher practices, or my disappointment in seeing visual downgrades after being promised something so much greater, or seeing devs act as yes men to a lying publisher. i get those frustrations out because it's ultimately cathartic and it might breed change. but a lot of the time it doesn't necessarily even matter if it's heard...it's the digital equivalent of screaming into a pillow, but i think if enough people do complain about things that seem to be universally despised, it can actually make things better, case in point, the xbox one and their U-turn on policies. or the pre-order incentives for deus ex, or the early access release condition of games like no mans sky or mass effect andromeda etc.

i would never let it escalate to personally insulting specific members of a development studio though, or sending death threats, those are just actions of a crazy person to me and frankly, what's the point?

 

[Cyframe]

I mean he's right. And for those mentioning films, that only goes so far because watching a film isn't as active as playing an online game or message boards relating to various objectives and gameplay mechanics.

Look at gamergate and look what women and minorities get when we try to make our voices heard. We get screamed out and drowned out even though we've been playing games as long as anyone.

The inability to curb and push back against this type of behavior prevents the medium from really taking roots as a respected form of expression.

 

[Glix]

Legit criticism isn’t always being toxic. I was very excited for that film, but it wasn’t a good movie and as a fan of Snyder, I didn’t think he’d be a good fit and watchmen is one of my more well-liked films. I didn’t want anything to go my way, I simply didn’t like a movie. His style worked better in watchmen for sure though.

I doubt anyone was harassing his twitter over it either way. Honestly, if you think people criticizing and moving on is the same as what the op discussed, then I don’t know what to tell you.

I just wanted to make sure I am understanding you properly.

Are you implying that no comic fans went berserk on Snyders twitter because of BvS?