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[RichiRamjag]

I definitely agree with this, but I do think there is one major thing being overlooked here.

It seems like this is the sort of space that publishers have fostered and created via their marketing and their exploitation. The people actually doing the labor are being made responsible for the ways that publishers find ways to pleasure and extract money from consumers in very deceitful ways, so the relationship between consumer and seller is highly mistrustful.

And the thing about being candid, I am not so sure about, at least in terms of the bigger developers. NDAs are a huge thing and publishers keep a tight lid on almost any form of project and working conditions. Again, publishers are shutting down transparency in order to control the message and sell as much as possible. People here on GAF go through LinkedIn and Twitter to see what projects are being worked on, and we have to rely on anonymous sources via Jason Schreier to get a modicum of insight of how the people who work on these games actually feel. And I don't buy the toxic consumers being responsble for a lack of transparency - in my own experience and interaction with the industry, NDAs is always the obstacle that force workers to remain anonymous.

At the same time, whenever developers actually appear in interviews, readers and consumers are fed a whole lot of of horseshit that the marketing director has orchestrated with a whole lot of buzz words and empty platitudes in order to build up hype once more for the next AAA product about killing people. Then when the game underperforms or don't meet the lofty expectations set up by the marketing director, consumers are then told afterwards that the developers have learned from their mistakes and they promise that the next one will be much better, so please go out and buy the next game!

Mind you, I am only referring to big publishers in the above, and keep in mind that I do recognize and acknowledge the toxicity of gamer culture and how much of a cesspool it is. I just think it's important to understand where the animosity comes from and how publishers cultivate this particular cesspool with their constant pleasuring *and* exploitation. I also acknowledge that gamers don't have any idea how fucking complex it is to create a video game and they can be very stubborn in terms of learning this.

I don’t see how most of this contradicts what he is saying though, especially when NDAs don’t appear to be the obstacle according to him. At least not enough to say they’re “always” the obstacle.

 

[CHC]

He is right. If I was ever a developer I'd just make my fucking games, advertise them as vaguely as possible, and then release them.

Just a generally awful community - anything shown or discussed even in the most offhand fashion is taken to heart as some kind of solemn oath, and there's so many miserable people just chomping at the bit to find something to dislike about your game. Not worth engaging if you're a well educated professional familiar with the nuances of the tech.

 

[HeatBoost]

This is a bit like... everything, though, isn't it?

If anything game devs only get more heat than say, people who work on a TV show, because they're the only real targets instead of a handful of highly visible cast members or a showrunning director or writer.

Which might be part of a problem. Unless you're a top guy, being a game developer is leagues less glamorous than any of those things, so you get to deal with all of the static that working on a popular thing causes, with very few of the benefits.

 

[Slayven]

I would say that people would be more willing to be okay with games being announced at or before they entered development if the publisher said "this game is coming out in five years" instead of being cagey.

I firmly believe long hype cycles lead people to getting stircrazy, and that is when you see narratives build, jokes turned into affronts, etc.

 

[SiegfriedFM]

FFS CAPCPCOM WHY NO ARCADE MODE YOU JUST ADD A BUTTON IN THE START MENU HOW HARD CAN IT BE?="I(=)#¤U%=(U%=#"??

And so on. This board certainly isn't immune to jumping on bandwagons and hating what's popular to hate, picking on the same talking points like noone ever came up with the idea that oh, maybe Dark Souls 2 could have looked better with more effort spent on lighting design.

In 90% of the cases of "lazy devs" the answer to your rage is "we ran out of time and/or money because software is pretty fucking difficult". And in 90% of those cases the answer should be "oh, well, that's too bad then" rather than "THIS GAME SUCKS FALL OFF A CLIFF AND DIE!".

 

[The Friendly Monster]

Seems accurate to me.

Not because it's "not what they wanted", but perhaps because it would be seen as coming at the cost of losing a game (DMC5) that they want? It would get a passionate response, which would have positive and negative opinions.

Are death threats a "passionate response"?

Fanboyism is the fucking worst.

 

[Weltall Zero]

Pfft. This is a lie. They don't have time to see their family. =P

I didn't say they should quit. I said they will have to deal with being seen as complicit. Which they are. It's business. That is "real life."

How is it fair to give devs shit for decision they have no say on and are quite probably against? If you work at a company you deserve blame for every decision the higher ups make? Where do you work at, a soup kitchen?

 

[Soulblighter31]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1427612

thank you

 

[RichiRamjag]

This is a bit like... everything, though, isn't it?

If anything game devs only get more heat than say, people who work on a TV show, because they're the only real targets instead of a handful of highly visible cast members or a showrunning director or writer.

Which might be part of a problem. Unless you're a top guy, being a game developer is leagues less glamorous than any of those things, so you get to deal with all of the static that working on a popular thing does, with very few of the benefits.

No, it’s not like everything. No reason trying to excuse it either with such an excuse. I’ve never seen tv fans of a historical drama brigading forums with racial insults because the trailer had black and tan people in ancient Egypt.

 

[Kor of Memory]

I don't know anything about that, but it sounds interesting. Can you elaborate or provide a link for me to read more about it?

I don't have any links for you, but you can probably find most of it on reddit:

I remember it all quite well though.

In early December of 2015 we got a patch for Destiny that gave us our usual balance changes, as well as the new SRL (sparrow racing league) mode for PvP. After this mode hit, the playerbase felt a shift. Matches took longer queue times and connections were often incredibly spotty. After about a weeks or two's worth of anecdotes, players started posting evidence. Doing full on research and statistical reports on queue times, pings, literal ip geography maps showing that matches of 3v3 was pairing people from the US, UK, Brazil, Russia, and Spain all in the same match.

Broken down for the average joe to understand, this became the giant Skill-Based Matchmaking vs Connection-Based Matchmaking, or SBMM vs CBMM for short.
Now, at this point on the subreddit, we're getting a daily thread of more and more evidence and statistical proof (as best a player can provide anyway) showing whats going on.

And then Bungie steps in. Derek Carroll, or Mantis, tweets to us to tell us that it's all in our heads. Nothing has changed with the matchmaking formula at all and we're simply seeing the effects of a smaller playerbase.

The community is sated for maybe a week, but more and more evidence is still adding up. Bungie has been vocal enough with the community that we understand that how the matchmaking system is working. Several PvP matches turn into what becomes knows as sweaties. Where the matches seem to be so evenly matches that the outcome usually comes down to the very last kill, and ties become more commonplace. Again, more and more evidence shows Bungie has move prioritization on SBMM over CBMM. Again Mantis tells us it's all in our heads.

The community is not sated this time, and begins to push back pretty hard. Looking for more answers and cementing their idea that this all started with the patch back in early December. Eventually, around February or March, Mantis admits that all the changes we noticed were in fact true, but he didn't want to tell us because he was thought it would taint their data collections.

The playerbase was fucked by this point. The changes to the matchmaking formula caused a huge drop in active players, which meant switching back to the old formula wasn't even that helpful because the player pool was so small, the queue times were still really fucked up which caused connection quality to suffer. Bungie would go on to spend almost a full year trying to repair the matchmaking formula. Telling us changes were made were none were noticed. Full articles were being written on websites, comics were even made about Mantis' competency. It was just a giant shit show.

Mantis just kept adding fuel to the fire, though. When people would complain about the Matchmaking formula, he would literally reply at them and tell to just play PvE instead. He would tell players that ghost bullets (bullets that hit a target but don't register) don't exist, and that they were just simply missing instead, despite video evidence.



If you want to try to piece this story together, try googling a combination of the following:
Derek Carroll
Mantis
CBMM
SBMM
Bungie
Destiny

 

[The Friendly Monster]

Nah, I’ve never seen tv fans of a historical drama brigading forums with racial insults because the trailer had black and tan people in ancient Egypt.

Unfortunately the shitheads in life aren't confined to the gaming world.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...tic-race-row-bbc-cartoon-us-academic-claimed/

 

[foxuzamaki]

There shouldn't be any hate to fuel though. No one should feel strongly enough about a Watch Dogs graphical downgrade that hate is an appropriate word to describe it. That's the problem with the gaming community. It's weird to have such a reaction to that type of thing.

I think we have to blame Sony because of that, that PS3 E3 caused a ton of controversy

 

[KORNdoggy]

I just wanted to make sure I am understanding you properly.

Are you implying that no comic fans went berserk on Snyders twitter because of BvS?

i would hope someone wasn't that naive. lol. fans of anything push back hard when they don't meet expectations. and BVS didn't meet expectations in a huge way. i bet he had a few death threats at the very least. which is sad, but the movie industry really isn't any different. the only reason there is this belief that it's better is because it's clearly not a community these people have been amongst for very long. that's the only reason i have for randall making a similar statement.

 

[Niceguydan8]

I don't have any links for you, but you can probably find most of it on reddit:

I remember it all quite well though.

It early December of 2015 we got a patch for Destiny that gave us our usual balance changes, as well as the new SRL (sparrow racing league) mode for PvP. After this mode hit, the playerbase felt a shift. Matches took longer queue times and connections were often incredibly spotty. After about a weeks or two's worth of anecdotes, players started posting evidence. Doing full on research and statistical reports on queue times, pings, literal ip geography maps showing that matches of 3v3 was pairing people from the US, UK, Brazil, Russia, and Spain all in the same match.

Broken down for the average joe to understand, this became the giant Skill-Based Matchmaking vs Connection-Based Matchmaking, or SBMM vs CBMM for short.
Now, at this point on the subreddit, we're getting a daily thread of more and more evidence and statistical proof (as best a player can provide anyway) showing whats going on.

And then Bungie steps in. Derek Carroll, or Mantis, tweets to us to tell us that it's all in our heads. Nothing has changed with the matchmaking formula at all and we're simply seeing the effects of a smaller playerbase.

The community is sated for maybe a week, but more and more evidence is still adding up. Bungie has been vocal enough with the community that we understand that how the matchmaking system is working. Several PvP matches turn into what becomes knows as sweaties. Where the matches seem to be so evenly matches that the outcome usually comes down to the very last kill, and ties become more commonplace. Again, more and more evidence shows Bungie has move prioritiation on SBMM over CBMM. Again Mantis tells us it's all in our heads.

The community is not sated this time, and begins to push back pretty hard. Looking for more answers and cementing their idea that this all started with the patch back in early December. Eventually, around February or March, Mantis admits that all the changes we noticed were in fact true, but he didn't want to tell us because he was thought it would taint their data collections.

The playerbase was fucked by this point. The changes to the matchmaking formula caused a huge drop in active players, which meant switching back to the old formula wasn't even that helpful because the player pool was so small, the queue times were still really fucked up which caused connection quality to suffer. Bungie would go on to spend almost a full year trying to repair the matchmaking formula. Telling us changes were made were none were noticed. Full articles were being written on websites, comics were even made about Mantis' competency. It was just a giant shit show.

Mantis just kept adding fuel to the fire, though. When people would complain about the Matchmaking formula, he would literally reply at them and tell to just play PvE instead. He would tell players that ghost bullets (bullets that hit a target but don't register) don't exist, and that they were just simply missing instead, despite video evidence.



If you want to try to piece this story together, try googling a combination of the following:
Derek Carroll
Mantis
CBMM
SBMM
Bungie
Destiny

Huh, that's really interesting. I'll have to look into it. I really appreciate your post, thank you.

 

[Lime]

I don't see how most of this contradicts what he is saying though, especially when NDAs don't appear to be the obstacle according to him. At least not enough to say they're ”always" the obstacle.

I'm not counter-arguing the Twitter post, I am in agreement with him - but I am pointing out that people are overlooking the major player in this entire shitfest that is gamer culture - and that is the publishers who are responsible for this.

Of course gamers are distrustful when they're being fed bullshit marketing over and over again. Of course gamers are misanthropic when the games they play have profit-oriented gameplay mechanics to exploit potential whales. Of course gamers are whining babies when they're not being constantly pleased by the publishers who always attempt to please them. Of course gamers are racist sexist assholes when they're only exposed to white dudebros shooting up shit with sexy women around them. Of course gamers are going to act like militant sycophants when their pleasurable video game product that they identify with so dearly is being criticized.

Publishers have created and cultivated this shit for years if not decades and gamers are more than willing to follow along to the extent that they now do coordinated harassment campaigns when they don't get what they want. Overlooking the role of publishers and companies in this toxicity doesn't help our understanding of this severe cultural problem.

 

[Alienous]

There shouldn't be any hate to fuel though. No one should feel strongly enough about a Watch Dogs graphical downgrade that hate is an appropriate word to describe it. That's the problem with the gaming community. It's weird to have such a reaction to that type of thing.

No one should feel strongly enough about the graphics of any video game that love is an appropriate word to describe it, but here we are.

It's the balance of people getting invested in a product.

 

[jdmonmou]

I wish he came with some specific examples of toxicity. Harassing individual developers is too far and should not be tolerated. But it seems that any sort of criticism levied at a game is being labeled as "toxicity." Gamers are passionate people about their hobby. For every game that's criticized there are tons more that are praised and defended. I don't care how a game is made. I just care if it's good when released. I don't want developers to turn a deaf ear to criticism. I want them to listen more to people (their customers) that are voicing valid concerns and act on that feedback.

 

[CrazyArcadia]

I mean, I can't say I've ever seen people get up in arms about the actual methods used to make a game. Where is that happening?

People get upset about content or business practices (ie microtransactions) all the time. But development methods? Where is that happening?

I don't even think it is about -actual- methods of creation, like how they brainstorm, lead a team or what software someone uses to do 3D modeling and so on, and more about surrounding details of development which people who are not part of the industry pick up on.

"Why would they use Unity/UE4/Cry *insert engine here* and don't get it running the same everywhere?" ("Oh shit, another Unity game that will run like shit" "All Unreal Engine games look the same." etcetc Maybe the program lead is most educated in a certain engine or licensing for an alternative would've been too expensive or unpractical?)

"Beta phase? More like unpaid game testing (nevermind that most games still need to go through seperate quality control, technical tests and certification, especially in the realm of console games)"

"Appealing to the casuals with those wiggle controls/cartoon style/choice of platform, I see. Why isn't this tailored to my specific tastes? You're destroying the artform!" "This is too casual // This is too hardcore // This is for Weeaboos // This is for dull sports fans //"

"Doing music/art/voice acting/world building should be fun and easy. I could do this in one evening if I wanted, for free. Isn't creating the most important thing for an artist, who cares about money, right?" ("Why did they change the level of detail from the E3 trailer to the final release?" "Why didn't they include more graphical details here/there?" "Who thought this music would be good, at all?" "This design is too sexist, they must be perverts!" "They changed this design because of SJWs!")

"Why don't they hire better writers?"

"I hate pixelart/celshading/polygons/shading/filters why isn't this looking more like Y?"

"Why spend resources on multiplayer? // Why doesn't this have multiplayer?"

"They should listen more to their fans -especially me- who demand contradictory features and content!"


And all that usually isn't even about personal political or other opinions. Add those to the mix and it can make a persons life hell.

I'm glad that not all discussion about games read like that (though I can find quotes like that everywhere and any time, and also even here on GAF). I probably have written similiar things in the past as well without thinking about it. Overall, though, I feel those who actually go after developers personally are a loud minority screaming, but I can understand how you'd rather concentrate on your thing and talk with people who do the same instead of engaging the public and risk a backlash for the way you try to explain something you do.

One thing I really like about both movie and comic book industries (and, to an extent, the fashion industry) are the making of-segments you can look into. Sometimes, it is really impressive how you get a -big- team of people so focused that they can work months for a certain background or scene and it all comes together. Like, I was truly impressed by the additional material found in Mad Max, just as one example here (they were e.g. talking about how they build the cars, how it was for the whole team to basically live in a desert during the making of the movie, struggles and celebrations). For games, you get a bit of concept art, sometimes.

I really loved the Iwata asks - Interviews and also the updates by Larian regarding Divinity because those were more about the creative progress, game design and the people behind them. I would love to have more of this for other projects as well and I think this is a huge driving factor behind indie games, that, if you're interested, you can usually find a lot more about what they're doing and why... but also when and where there have to be compromises because of time or money constraints. Especially in the realm of games journalism, I would love if interviews wouldn't read like marketing checklists and more like... what's influencing your work? How do you get the different artists and programmers work together towards the different ideas and elements in a game? How do you cope with having to let an idea go because it wasn't possible? What do you think makes your game fun or special?"

Maybe he has a point that it doesn't help at all how some of the more popular commenters of video games - ahem, influencers - on Youtube are also the most angry/vulgar ones. And that most discussion takes place in completely unmoderated comment sections and twitter and forums.

And yeah, this happens in all media to an extent, but for some reason, it seems lightyears stronger and more common in gaming.

 

[Kintaro]

How is it fair to give devs shit for decision they have no say on and are quite probably against? If you work at a company you deserve blame for every decision the higher ups make? Where do you work at, a soup kitchen?

I work at GameStop.

Every single shit decision they make? I'm reminded of every day. I am blamed for every day. I am yelled at for, every day. I am called a N word for, every day. On this very board in fact (not the N word thing tho). Go check out the GameStop threads. It sucks. I am sure it sucks for devs too. You either go along with it because you have to or you walk away. At some point, I will gladly walk away. But in the meantime, I still have to hold that L because I am the face that carries out those decisions.


I appreciate Mr. Randall stepping up and saying all of this because it's all true. But, on some level, you're still going to be the face of good and bad decisions that are out of your control. It sucks. Just like Monolith is right now. It's just something they have to accept. =(

That doesn't mean they have to accept the fuckholes who go overboard though. It is weird because the backlash, toxicity and hate is just a notch higher in gaming. You can feel it more. Or that could just be me. =/

 

[Shinypogs]

I'm struggling to think of aspects that consumers want game developers to be more candid about.

If they're talking about techniques GDC panels are watchable by the public. Otherwise it's a seller/buyer relationship, and that isn't conducive to being candid.

I'd like explanations for things like "Why is it hard to program good ai both enemy and follower/companion/ god damn green units in fire emblem." If I could ask " why did you program the ai to respond to situation y with x or why does the ai have no/ poor reactions to z" that'd be nice.

Developers make decisions I don't understand all the time and while I'm not owed an explanations it'd be nice if the more common quibbles about games came with fairly swift candid responses even if I don't like them.

All that said I do not blame devs at all for feeling like it's not worth facing the hostility to be honest and engaging.

On the other hand purposefully hiding shit because you don't wanna talk about it/ don't think it needs addressing can be equally problematic.

Looking at you bioware and valve, half your fiascos could be avoided if you just came out and owned your failures right away and/or offered to tell people why you made certain choices or how a situation went awry. already upset people getting the silent treatmeant tend to get more upset.

 

[rochellepaws]

He gives advice on people who dislike elements from developers or in games to not play that game and move on instead focusing on the games they do enjoy and the developers they appreciate. But his advice seems contradictory to how he views the games community labeling everyone as toxic and not worth the consequences of dealing with them, surely by the same line of thought he should communicate openly with respectful and interested fans and not worry about what a youtube personality or twitter troll thinks or says about him?

 

[RichiRamjag]

I'm not counter-arguing the Twitter post, I am in agreement with him - but I am pointing out that people are overlooking the major player in this entire shitfest that is gamer culture - and that is the publishers who are responsible for this.

Of course gamers are distrustful when they're being fed bullshit marketing over and over again. Of course gamers are misanthropic when the games they play have profit-oriented gameplay mechanics to exploit potential whales. Of course gamers are whining babies when they're not being constantly pleased by the publishers who always attempt to please them. Of course gamers are racist sexist assholes when they're only exposed to white dudebros shooting up shit with sexy women around them. Of course gamers are going to act like militant sycophants when their pleasurable video game product that they identify with so dearly is being criticized.

Publishers have created and cultivated this shit for years if not decades and gamers are more than willing to follow along to the extent that they now do coordinated harassment campaigns when they don't get what they want. Overlooking the role of publishers and companies in this toxicity doesn't help our understanding of this severe cultural problem.

Ahh, gotcha. I think they share a large part of the blame for sure. You’re right though. Good post.

 

[methane47]

Snip

This is the kind of bullshit that riles people up.

The developers and publishers say hey... eat Shit..
players say... but we dont want to eat shit..
Devs/Pubs say: but you LIKE shit so Eat it.
Players say: THis is bullshit!

Twitter: See this is why we aren't candid with players.. because they dont like to eat shit.

Instead of Being honest with the player base from the start. They lie to our faces and expect us to accept bullshit for no reason.
If they were just honest then we could atleast accept the truth. No first they have to lie to us where the explaination does not fit reality, then after days, weeks, months... the truth comes out.

 

[AyzOn]

Having spend a ton of time lurking in 3D Art Forums and talking to a couple devs from big studios, they usually have absolutely no problem helping people and talking about projects. (As long its not forbidden by the NDA)

There are devs exchanging tools, workflows and tricks all the time which they learned while working on certain games.

It's just that once you post those things in a forum like neogaf that most people won't have a clue what those things even are and they will start with "why didn't dev XY just do it like that" and act like its always as simple as pressing a button.

I agree with everything he said and its absolutely not surprising, just take a look at the Sony and MS fanboys going at each other and throwing nonsense at themselves, making up stories out of singled out words or statements to have something that they can use against "them".
Completely ignoring the fact that while those people work for companies, they are still humans being passionate about gaming, they are not all soulless monsters.

 

[Lime]

He gives advice on people who dislike elements from developers or in games to not play that game and move on instead focusing on the games they do enjoy and the developers they appreciate. But his advice seems contradictory to how he views the games community labeling everyone as toxic and not worth the consequences of dealing with them, surely by the same line of thought he should communicate openly with respectful and interested fans and not worry about what a youtube personality or twitter troll thinks or says about him?

The problem is that the "a youtube personality or twitter troll" are the main/primary voice that developers are exposed to and they are a sizeable segment that even go to the length of organized harassment campaign.

 

[UserDoesNotExist]

Bollocks.

He's deliberately obfuscating GameFAQs-level stupidity with valid criticism to deflect blame. I don't care how hard he thinks his job is, his industry absolutely should be called out by the consumer for loot boxes and selling broken games.

 

[SiegfriedFM]

I think we have to blame Sony because of that, that PS3 E3 caused a ton of controversy

That's also not a reason for death threats or hate or anything, really. Ruining a country, persecuting an ethnic group, starting a war or two, kidnapping a couple of hundred schoolgirls for years of slavery, that makes for a pretty damn good reason to hate someone (and even then I wouldn't normally make death threats).

Making a game console that costs $100-200 more than expected... not really.

 

[Messofanego]

He is right. If I was ever a developer I'd just make my fucking games, advertise them as vaguely as possible, and then release them.

Just a generally awful community - anything shown or discussed even in the most offhand fashion is taken to heart as some kind of solemn oath, and there's so many miserable people just chomping at the bit to find something to dislike about your game. Not worth engaging if you're a well educated professional familiar with the nuances of the tech.

The one problem with that approach is it can be bad for marketing of the game as Mike Rose (indie publisher guy) argued in this article "How To Announce A Game in 2017", cause if people only hear about the game from the announcement and then right next to the release, there's little hype and hence not as many sales.

Lose-lose situation.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

He gives advice on people who dislike elements from developers or in games to not play that game and move on instead focusing on the games they do enjoy and the developers they appreciate. But his advice seems contradictory to how he views the games community labeling everyone as toxic and not worth the consequences of dealing with them, surely by the same line of thought he should communicate openly with respectful and interested fans and not worry about what a youtube personality or twitter troll thinks or says about him?

This is hard to do sometimes and it hurts when assholes are screaming that you're trash on Twitter even if they're randos you don't care about.

Social media is unusable and painful when it's just 100 people screaming at you in your mentions.

 

[Zombie James]

I don't have any links for you, but you can probably find most of it on reddit:

I remember it all quite well though.

In early December of 2015 we got a patch for Destiny that gave us our usual balance changes, as well as the new SRL (sparrow racing league) mode for PvP. After this mode hit, the playerbase felt a shift. Matches took longer queue times and connections were often incredibly spotty. After about a weeks or two's worth of anecdotes, players started posting evidence. Doing full on research and statistical reports on queue times, pings, literal ip geography maps showing that matches of 3v3 was pairing people from the US, UK, Brazil, Russia, and Spain all in the same match.

Broken down for the average joe to understand, this became the giant Skill-Based Matchmaking vs Connection-Based Matchmaking, or SBMM vs CBMM for short.
Now, at this point on the subreddit, we're getting a daily thread of more and more evidence and statistical proof (as best a player can provide anyway) showing whats going on.

And then Bungie steps in. Derek Carroll, or Mantis, tweets to us to tell us that it's all in our heads. Nothing has changed with the matchmaking formula at all and we're simply seeing the effects of a smaller playerbase.

The community is sated for maybe a week, but more and more evidence is still adding up. Bungie has been vocal enough with the community that we understand that how the matchmaking system is working. Several PvP matches turn into what becomes knows as sweaties. Where the matches seem to be so evenly matches that the outcome usually comes down to the very last kill, and ties become more commonplace. Again, more and more evidence shows Bungie has move prioritization on SBMM over CBMM. Again Mantis tells us it's all in our heads.

The community is not sated this time, and begins to push back pretty hard. Looking for more answers and cementing their idea that this all started with the patch back in early December. Eventually, around February or March, Mantis admits that all the changes we noticed were in fact true, but he didn't want to tell us because he was thought it would taint their data collections.

The playerbase was fucked by this point. The changes to the matchmaking formula caused a huge drop in active players, which meant switching back to the old formula wasn't even that helpful because the player pool was so small, the queue times were still really fucked up which caused connection quality to suffer. Bungie would go on to spend almost a full year trying to repair the matchmaking formula. Telling us changes were made were none were noticed. Full articles were being written on websites, comics were even made about Mantis' competency. It was just a giant shit show.

Mantis just kept adding fuel to the fire, though. When people would complain about the Matchmaking formula, he would literally reply at them and tell to just play PvE instead. He would tell players that ghost bullets (bullets that hit a target but don't register) don't exist, and that they were just simply missing instead, despite video evidence.



If you want to try to piece this story together, try googling a combination of the following:
Derek Carroll
Mantis
CBMM
SBMM
Bungie
Destiny

Holy shit.

 

[jennetics]

As a lazy dev who is reading NeoGAF instead of developing software features right this second...
We exist. 🙂

Back to work, ya bum!

 

[Kor of Memory]

Huh, that's really interesting. I'll have to look into it. I really appreciate your post, thank you.

Here is a video from a full year after the switch that was still talking about the SBMM CBMM issue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28RYOYYYOk0

Here is a video of some data in February after i happened:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA9uGoZPvAA


There are a shit ton of videos from the whole year of 2016 talking about it.

 

[RichiRamjag]

Bollocks.

He's deliberately obfuscating GameFAQs-level stupidity with valid criticism to deflect blame. I don't care how hard he thinks his job is, his industry absolutely should be called out by the consumer for loot boxes and selling broken games.

It’s kind of like you ignored most of what he said or didn’t read it. He specifically provided an examples.

As said below, you’re proving his point and I say that as someone who loathes microtransactions.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

Bollocks.

He's deliberately obfuscating GameFAQs-level stupidity with valid criticism to deflect blame. I don't care how hard he thinks his job is, his industry absolutely should be called out by the consumer for loot boxes and selling broken games.

This is proving his point. If he wants to open a conversation about game development in public, and you are just looking for a fight, he isn't going to bother in the future.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Randall is pretty against F2P garbage fwiw.

 

[Chessr]

I dont understant why people have to trashtalk some developers. Like hey i play x numbers of games every weak. I AM ZE EXPERTZZ. U DEVS LAZYY YESS

 

[Tapejara]

He gives advice on people who dislike elements from developers or in games to not play that game and move on instead focusing on the games they do enjoy and the developers they appreciate. But his advice seems contradictory to how he views the games community labeling everyone as toxic and not worth the consequences of dealing with them, surely by the same line of thought he should communicate openly with respectful and interested fans and not worry about what a youtube personality or twitter troll thinks or says about him?

I think the issue is the collective voices rather than the individual. Like, if someone tweets you "The shooting in your game was bad," on its own that's a relatively benign statement that a developer would probably want feedback on. But if that tweet is also coming at the same time as "you ruined the shooting in this game series, I hope you're shut down" "kill yourself" "How did you guys fuck this up, you must be lazy" and so forth, it all starts to blur together.

The developer will still end up understanding that people weren't happy with the shooting mechanics, but they'll also have to deal with a torrent of abuse. Twitter isn't the most conductive place for contructive criticism, and while long-form YouTube videos can offer a better space, I think Randall is specifically referring to YouTubers who offer very low-level criticism which can fuel hatred towards a person or studio. I know CrowbCat is beloved here on GAF, but his videos don't offer developers his thoughts on how to improve or teach his audience why aspects of a game don't work, they're just galleries for people to point and laugh at, which in turn can feed into the abuse developers face.

 

[Pantaghana]

I'd argue that this isn't a "toxic gamer culture" thing as much as it is a Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory on a mass scale.

Regardless, it's extremely depressing that devs have to silence themselves in order to preserve their own sanity.

 

[RichiRamjag]

He gives advice on people who dislike elements from developers or in games to not play that game and move on instead focusing on the games they do enjoy and the developers they appreciate. But his advice seems contradictory to how he views the games community labeling everyone as toxic and not worth the consequences of dealing with them, surely by the same line of thought he should communicate openly with respectful and interested fans and not worry about what a youtube personality or twitter troll thinks or says about him?

I don’t think respectful fans giving critique is what he is talking about though. There are some people who get hate-boners for games and won’t shut up about it. You see it here quite often. I hated destiny 1 at first, thought it was terrible. Rather than let the world know daily, I just didn’t play and checked it out after improvements were made. It’s now my favorite game of the gen. I don’t like destiny 2 and I’ve got no problem saying why in an appropriate topic, but I don’t go into the OT every damn day to remind everyone because it’s a waste of my time. I’ll just go do something else.

 

[Deku89]

I think a major hurdle to overcome is the technical talk. Video games can be very complicated and a lot of moving parts. If you're on the outside and don't know anything about the industry, you tend to simplify things to the surface level understanding.

I don't know if those toxic gamers really care to put in the effort to truly understand the work involved. So, there's only two ways to deal with them: ignore them or call them out (not for the toxic guy, but for other people listening). Problem with calling them out it's bad PR for the developers, so it has to come from the community, which doesn't happen very often.

Also, like someone said above, there is a difference between developers and publishers, but they can get conflated.

 

[Crocodile]

Here's a fantastic microcosm of what happens when reality intersects with GAF, nevermind the general public

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=516730

I was just thinking of this example and wanted to check this thread to make sure it was posted before I posted it. The person the OP is citing is right on. There is a lot of room for legit criticism and the gaming community shouldn't let things slide that are actual issues. So often though "gamers" have no fucking clue what they are talking about and don't know the difference between discourse and just being an asshole. Flares up when it comes to technical issues, "censorship", etc. It can be such a pain and sometimes a disgrace

 

[BRocknRolla]

Two thoughts on this:

1) A lot of excellent points here. The number of armchair analysts, devs, and QAers on this site is terrible. It's not something unique though; you can find these people on a lot of different topics. There's an inflated sense of self-importance, where people think their opinions are important regardless of how well thought out they are, or whether they're based in anything beyond their amorphous "feelings". People need to raise their commentary to the level of actual criticism, or if not, perhaps just keep their mouths shut. Criticism is important though. Devs would do well to be responsive and open-minded about it, regardless of whether it is harsh. But we should also consider how we present things. There's no reason to be cruel.

2) Twitter is a terrible medium for actual, cogent, commentary. Thank you OP for compiling these in a way that's easy to read.

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

This is completely true. And it’s absolutely just a gamer thing too. Looking at any other medium - book, movies, music - no audience attacks the producers of what they consume more than gamers for the most trivial ridiculous things.

Game culture hates developers, publishers, and the press. It’s actively hostile to all attempts to educate it. The growing Youtuber trends are putting faces to this, as they somehow fall outside of the boundaries of the “press” (and many of them have inflated egos over it, claiming they are superior for this) despite doing the exact same thing.

I’ve posted on GAF before when I see it happening in real time. It’s insidious and disgusting, and the inevitable day I stop posting on gaming forums will be down to the immaturity of these sorts of responses.

 

[Griss]

Bollocks.

He's deliberately obfuscating GameFAQs-level stupidity with valid criticism to deflect blame. I don't care how hard he thinks his job is, his industry absolutely should be called out by the consumer for loot boxes and selling broken games.

The bolded is exactly how I see it.

Harassing devs? Ad-hominems? Violent language? All totally unacceptable.

Getting in touch on twitter to say 'I think this game is really poor and/or broken and I want you to fix it or do better.' Nothing wrong with that. Receiving criticism is part of being in a creative industry.

I understand that it's frustrating to deal with so many people who don't understand game dev but these are the people who are buying your products and dealing with them is part of the, well, deal. The difference these days is that social media gives everyone an easy way to share their opinion. Instead of getting 50 angry letters about a bug you get 30,000 tweets instead.

Where he says 'If you are posting extremely negative things about a game you don't like, even with good intentions, then you are part of this ethos.' ...I can't agree with that. Some games are terrible and deserve all the criticism they get.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

I think its unfair frankly to paint the entire online gaming community as "toxic". I think any developer who thinks in this way has a very unhealthy view of his/her customer base.

Of course there are toxic gamer communities, both on and offline, as well as decidedly nasty and hateful individuals, but to paint the entire gaming community with the same brush here is a pretty crappy thing to do.

For every idiot wanting to hurl abuse at a developer, there are tens, or even hundreds of sensible people who enjoy playing videogames and would be excited to learn more about the industry and how a developer's internal dev. process works.

It's crap when the assholes spoil it for everyone else, but devs please don't insult the rest of us by placing us in the same category as those degenerates.

 

[Rexatality]

This is the kind of bullshit that riles people up.

The developers and publishers say hey... eat Shit..
players say... but we dont want to eat shit..
Devs/Pubs say: but you LIKE shit so Eat it.
Players say: THis is bullshit!

Twitter: See this is why we aren't candid with players.. because they dont like to eat shit.

Instead of Being honest with the player base from the start. They lie to our faces and expect us to accept bullshit for no reason.
If they were just honest then we could atleast accept the truth. No first they have to lie to us where the explaination does not fit reality, then after days, weeks, months... the truth comes out.

I think you're taking the wrong point if you believe most developers, if not, all developers have malicious intents towards their consumers.

 

[Hermii]

Twitter is not the right medium for long rants, its just tiring. He should have wrote a blog post.

Also every gaming company should copy the Iwata Asks format.

 

[Some Nobody]

I try not to attack developers because I know they're just doing their jobs. They only got into this business because they love games. It has to be that, because no one would work 80-100 hour work weeks for substandard pay without some passion being involved. It's already not practical, but if you don't love the industry it becomes stupid.

Having said that, there's a difference between a developer and a publisher. Knowing what I do about Dragon Age and Mass Effect, BioWare gets a pass. But EA? I'll get in EA's ass all day, fam.

This does make me sad though. I'd love to know more about certain games, what's holding them up, the challenges devs face, little tricks they use, etc. etc. Shame some of it has to be an "open secret".

 

[Dueck]

I think the main problem is that a lot of hardcore gamers have nothing else they consider as important in their lives, so you get a lot of passion combined with general knowledge of the medium, which can easily become very negative when added to the general toxicity of the internet.

I try to follow a policy of "if I wouldn't say it in real life, I won't say it online." It makes interactions much more pleasant. For both sides. The above statement is obviously a generalization and doesn't apply to everyone, in case that needed to be pointed out...

 

[AtomskEater]

I remember Skullgirls getting some shit during their Indiegogo because people didn't believe the game should cost that much money to get made. It still occasionally happens occasionally with other games. People are often convinced that they know how game development really is, and that it's easier or cheaper than it is when devs say otherwise.

Fake edit: I see someone posted links to a relevant thread already. I'm too slow!