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Dragon Ball Super |OT6| Put your back into it.

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S

Skeeter49

Member
17 robbed us of a Goten and Trunks miniarc :(

Main reason I don't have an issue with this is the time between the Cell saga and now. 17 has had years to train. Also, his power can't be sense. That explains why no one knew about it.

Calling all Slaythe's, can 17 sense energy? I know in the abridge they mention he can't, but I'm not sure if they're just doing that to make fun of Gero's design flaws, or if that was intended in Z. If he can't sense energy, that explains why he hasn't done much to help with Buu or other enemies.
 
S

Slaythe

Member
HeroR said:
Not sure if that counts, but I guess it can be viewed that way.



Goku would be sure since he knew where 17 stood to him before and after he left the time chamber. So it would be Goku being humble. And Goku straight out said, 'I will try not to kill you'.
Click to expand...

It's stated in the actual episode Goku can't sense 17's energy.

Therefore Goku has virtually no clue how powerful 17 is.

All he knows is that 17 is stronger than SSG (since he clearly outmatched ssj Goku) and that Blue's kamehameha was entirely ineffective.

17's speed and power were enough to keep up with Blue (without kaioken).

Both fighters admitted they were holding back still. But said he hadn't intended to go Blue, which means he was fighting beyond a super saiyan god level.

On top of that, 17 was mentioning how BACK THEN (back when he wanted to kill him), he probably would have lost. Goku says he doesn't know, because depending on when 17 would have found him, it could have went either way. (before or after ROSAT)
 
C

Chaotic-Strike

Banned
Well at least 17 won't be canon fodder in the tournament even if his massive power increase was a little random. Super had Vegeta reach SSJ Blue when he started out as a SSJ2 pretty quick not to mention Freeza and Trunks getting around there. So there shouldn't really be a limit anymore to how high characters can get with the proper motivation.

There's also no point arguing how strong 17 really is just be patient and wait for the actual tournament, and we'll find out.
 
S

Slaythe

Member
Skeeter49 said:
17 robbed us of a Goten and Trunks miniarc :(

Main reason I don't have an issue with this is the time between the Cell saga and now. 17 has had years to train. Also, his power can't be sense. That explains why no one knew about it.

Calling all Slaythe's, can 17 sense energy? I know in the abridge they mention he can't, but I'm not sure if they're just doing that to make fun of Gero's design flaws, or if that was intended in Z. If he can't sense energy, that explains why he hasn't done much to help with Buu or other enemies.
Click to expand...

He doesn't know how to feel people's ki no. And his biology prevents others from feeling him.

Also we might get Trunks and Goten mini ranger arc later down the line. I want this hard now.
 
I

Infinite Justice

Member
Skeeter49 said:
17 robbed us of a Goten and Trunks miniarc :(

Main reason I don't have an issue with this is the time between the Cell saga and now. 17 has had years to train. Also, his power can't be sense. That explains why no one knew about it.

Calling all Slaythe's, can 17 sense energy? I know in the abridge they mention he can't, but I'm not sure if they're just doing that to make fun of Gero's design flaws, or if that was intended in Z. If he can't sense energy, that explains why he hasn't done much to help with Buu or other enemies.
Click to expand...

IIRC he couldnt during his Arc as he left that to 16.


Chaotic-Strike said:
There's also no point arguing how strong 17 really is just be patient and wait for the actual tournament, and we'll find out.
Click to expand...

And this wont even be a good gauge either since the aim is to getting the opponent out of the ring and he will be working on a team.
 
V

Vice

Member
Skeeter49 said:
17 robbed us of a Goten and Trunks miniarc :(

Main reason I don't have an issue with this is the time between the Cell saga and now. 17 has had years to train. Also, his power can't be sense. That explains why no one knew about it.

Calling all Slaythe's, can 17 sense energy? I know in the abridge they mention he can't, but I'm not sure if they're just doing that to make fun of Gero's design flaws, or if that was intended in Z. If he can't sense energy, that explains why he hasn't done much to help with Buu or other enemies.
Click to expand...
Correct, they had to depend on 16 to find Goku for.them during the Android saga.
 
Z

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
Everybody's focused on the power scaling on 17.

Imagine what kind of power scaling they'll have to do on Roshi to justify his inclusion in the tournament.
 
H

HeroR

Member
Slaythe said:
It's stated in the actual episode Goku can't sense 17's energy.

Therefore Goku has virtually no clue how powerful 17 is.

All he knows is that 17 is stronger than SSG (since he clearly outmatched ssj Goku) and that Blue's kamehameha was entirely ineffective.

17's speed and power were enough to keep up with Blue (without kaioken).

Both fighters admitted they were holding back still. But said he hadn't intended to go Blue, which means he was fighting beyond a super saiyan god level.

On top of that, 17 was mentioning how BACK THEN (back when he wanted to kill him), he probably would have lost. Goku says he doesn't know, because depending on when 17 would have found him, it could have went either way. (before or after ROSAT)
Click to expand...

Even then, Goku said he will try not to kill 17, meaning that he will be extra careful since he doesn't exactly know where 17 scale making it easy for him to 'over do it'. So Goku was working on the mentality, 'how much force to used'.

Never said he wasn't beyond Super Saiyan God, that he wasn't up to par with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

Also, given how Goku is, it is hard to tell. He used Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan/Kaioken against Bergoma, despite beating him up with as just a Super Saiyan and calling the fight lackluster. The same with Krillin when he decided to go Super Saiyan and then god, despite Goku being Super Saiyan being more than enough if you want to believe Krillin's base is closed to Goku's. So Goku seems to sandbag even when he's using his higher transformations.
 
T

The Silver

Member
RareFantasy64 said:
Insane power levels have been more damaging than beneficial to the world of Dragon Ball. It's good non-Saiyans can be important. I hope 17 has no transformation at all. I'm glad he can hang with Goku


It is weird how uneventful SSJG and SSJBlue ended up being, but an arc where 17, 18, Krillin, Tien and Piccolo can be relevant is more important to me than an arc where SSJ Blue set Goku and Vegeta miles upon miles ahead of all characters except for the Big Bad of the arc
Click to expand...

the real issue people have is that it's being handled so inelegantly in their view(even by DB standards), no one has a problem with the concept old characters getting back into the game and mattering in a fight. The thing is dragon ball(Z) has always been more or less about that binary "my dick is bigger than yours and you're completely worthless" type of power hierarchy and couple with the insane jumps in power Super showcased, people want some in universe justification that easily flows with the rest of the series.

All it really would've taken was some Beerus/Whis bootcamp and most of these complaints wouldn't be happening. At the end of the day Dragon Ball is a battle shounen, people want that stuff to be consistent, some people can ignore it and just go along with the ride, others value that kind of consistency a lot.


I really want to highlight more that the power that was showcased in Goku vs Beerus and letting Goku keep that power is a big part of all the power complaints Super has been getting.(and with Blue he has to be many times stronger than back then which makes it worse) The universe destruction is by far the biggest tangible visible jump in power ever seen in the series. By the end of Namek, feats, and the visual look of the fights stopped growing in scale, even went backwards actually. Beerus vs Goku was a very extreme jump that set Goku so far ahead that it looks crazy when an old character matches him in even in base(or god forbid Blue) without ample setup for it.

Personally I stopped giving a shit a while ago, just give my boy Geets more good moments and give Gohan his goddamn bang back.

If there's one power thing that would bother me at this point it's that I don't want Goku to ever be stonger than Beerus, that would destroy Beerus's character, he has to be the boss for him to work.
 
I

Infinite Justice

Member
ZealousD said:
Everybody's focused on the power scaling on 17.

Imagine what kind of power scaling they'll have to do on Roshi to justify his inclusion in the tournament.
Click to expand...

Wasn't he beating Freeza goons in Resurrection of F? i think that shows hes already there.

plus its not all about Power for this tournament
 
S

Slaythe

Member
Young jiji art

C9f7gzOVYAAG99g.jpg:large
 
S

Slaythe

Member
Conun said:
Power levels are weird , Goku seemed like he was like 10x stronger than the stronger people minus like saiyans in Buu Saga.

God stuff made it look like he transcended regular humans and at that point we could type in a long line of random numbers on a calculator.

Then Future Trunks surpassed it as a regular saiyan without the help of Gods and nowhere to really train really.

Now 17 is stronger or about as strong as Blue while doing the same job as Krillin but in a forest setting with mountain to run on. Where was he when a lot of events threatened the earth , which happens to also threaten his village?
Click to expand...

17 can't feel ki. So that makes it pretty hard for him to target threats.

SSB Vegeta got killed by Frieza when he blew up the earth. 17 died there too.

Also did you miss the whole part where he said "if it happens, so be it" in the episode ? Right when Goku mentions the universe will be erased ?
 
S

Slaythe

Member
HeroR said:
Even then, Goku said he will try not to kill 17, meaning that he will be extra careful since he doesn't exactly know where 17 scale making it easy for him to 'over do it'. So Goku was working on the mentality, 'how much force to used'.
Click to expand...

Why not go Super Saiyan 2 or 3 then ? That doesn't make a lot of sense.

Never said he wasn't beyond Super Saiyan God, that he wasn't up to par with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.
Click to expand...

We do not know that. It's possible you're right, we don't have the answer.

I just had to correct you because you misinterpreted (like Herms) what was said. 17 was strictly referring to the cell saga when he said he would have lost.

It's entirely possible he would have lost to Goku (because I don't see 17 beating kaioken shenanigans, even though his barrier could probably tank it), but there is nothing to support that claim at the moment.
(once again let's not dwell into theories, I'm talking about when you said 17 admitted he'd lose, which he didn't do)

Also, given how Goku is, it is hard to tell. He used Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan/Kaioken against Bergoma, despite beating him up with as just a Super Saiyan and calling the fight lackluster. The same with Krillin when he decided to go Super Saiyan and then god, despite Goku being Super Saiyan being more than enough if you want to believe Krillin's base is closed to Goku's. So Goku seems to sandbag even when he's using his higher transformations.
Click to expand...

17 didn't break a sweat and was clearly not going all out, which was confirmed.

They obviously wanted to blur the lines with this episode and make 17 relevant in that realm of power.

PBS-17.png
 
R

roflwaffles

Member
lmao at the power scaling of this series. Love how people are citing Frieza training for 4 months as a justification for this as if that wasn't completely dogshit as well.

Just make your other irrelevant characters this strong out of nowhere too if you're gonna do it to 17 out of all people.
 
U

Undead Fantasy

Member
The Silver said:
the real issue people have is that it's being handled so inelegantly in their view(even by DB standards), no one has a problem with the concept old characters getting back into the game and mattering in a fight. The thing is dragon ball(Z) has always been more or less about that binary "my dick is bigger than yours and you're completely worthless" type of power hierarchy and couple with the insane jumps in power Super showcased, people want some in universe justification that easily flows with the rest of the series.

All it really would've taken was some Beerus/Whis bootcamp and most of these complaints wouldn't be happening. At the end of the day Dragon Ball is a battle shounen, people want that stuff to be consistent, some people can ignore it and just go along with the ride, others value that kind of consistency a lot.


I really want to highlight more that the power that was showcased in Goku vs Beerus and letting Goku keep that power is a big part of all the power complaints Super has been getting.(and with Blue he has to be many times stronger than back then which makes it worse) The universe destruction is by far the biggest tangible visible jump in power ever seen in the series. By the end of Namek, feats, and the visual look of the fights stopped growing in scale, even went backwards actually. Beerus vs Goku was a very extreme jump that set Goku so far ahead that it looks crazy when an old character matches him in even in base(or god forbid Blue) without ample setup for it.

Personally I stopped giving a shit a while ago, just give my boy Geets more good moments and give Gohan his goddamn bang back.

If there's one power thing that would bother me at this point it's that I don't want Goku to ever be stonger than Beerus, that would destroy Beerus's character, he has to be the boss for him to work.
Click to expand...

This guy gets it.

I can gladly accept even Krillin getting to god level if it makes sense and it's explained well.

17 getting there to that level didn't so it's bullshit.
 
H

HeroR

Member
Slaythe said:
Why not go Super Saiyan 2 or 3 then ? That doesn't make a lot of sense.



We do not know that. It's possible you're right, we don't have the answer.

I just had to correct you because you misinterpreted (like Herms) what was said. 17 was strictly referring to the cell saga when he said he would have lost.

It's entirely possible he would have lost to Goku (because I don't see 17 beating kaioken shenanigans, even though his barrier could probably tank it), but there is nothing to support that claim at the moment.
(once again let's not dwell into theories, I'm talking about when you said 17 admitted he'd lose, which he didn't do)



17 didn't break a sweat and was clearly not going all out, which was confirmed.

They obviously wanted to blur the lines with this episode and make 17 relevant in that realm of power.

PBS-17.png
Click to expand...

Goku haven't used the lesser Super Saiyan form since the Future Trunks Saga, unless you count Super Saiyan 3 back in Episode 76. The same could be asked why he didn't used those forms again Krillin and jumped straight to god. The same with at the Zen'o tournament. Why didn't he used Super Saiyan 2 against Toppo instead of just a normal Super Saiyan?

Why would Goku scale himself to the Kaoken? He hasn't in the past. And 17 wasn't going all out which was obvious and Goku really wasn't going all out since he didn't know what amount of force could kill 17.

I will admit, I did make a mistake, but the way it was worded sounded like the present, especially Goku's response. Since he knows where 17 was at those years ago. Still, I doubt 17 is on par with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku given how Goku tends to job when he's testing people.
 
R

roflwaffles

Member
StaticJam said:
Y'all just watched future trunks go from SSJ2 to God tier by getting mad
17 trained for 10 years
Click to expand...

The Trunks situation was horrible writing and so is this.

Probably the worst problem with Super overall, is that the writing in the show is the same quality of that of a middle school kid.
 
W

weshes195

Member
It's amazing seeing how there are so many posters acting like Dragonball has actually cared about power levels besides the current situation and consistency when it is clear they are either extremely bias or haven't watched MAJOR parts of the show...

Anyways, another great episode. Very interesting stance 17 has about being erased since he has a wife and children lol "Eh, seems like a lot of work"
 
T

The Last One

Member
People complaining about 17's power level when the actually stupid thing of the episode is the alliens conveniently arriving at Earth to steal the minotaur.
 
S

Slaythe

Member
HeroR said:
Goku haven't used the lesser Super Saiyan form since the Future Trunks Saga, unless you count Super Saiyan 3 back in Episode 76. The same could be asked why he didn't used those forms again Krillin and jumped straight to god. The same with at the Zen'o tournament. Why didn't he used Super Saiyan 2 against Toppo instead of just a normal Super Saiyan?
Click to expand...

1) He wanted to see if Bergamo can absorb his full power/ stand up to it

2) Toppo was wrecking him he had to go Blue to even it out

3) Krilin knows about Blue so going "2" is less intidimating

4) 17 has no idea what Goku can do

Why would Goku scale himself to the Kaoken? He hasn't in the past. And 17 wasn't going all out which was obvious and Goku really wasn't going all out since he didn't know what amount of force could kill 17.
Click to expand...

Precisely because he did against Bergamo and Toppo. That's now his "thing" whenever he goes all out. (While he had only used it for one shitty kick in the Black arc)


I will admit, I did make a mistake, but the way it was worded sounded like the present, especially Goku's response. Since he knows where 17 was at those years ago. Still, I doubt 17 is on par with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku given how Goku tends to job when he's testing people.
Click to expand...

That's perfectly fair, I wasn't trying to argue with your opinion. I don't agree with it but since right now it's blurred, I can't really add anything.

That being said, it's not the wording so much as the placement of the line that made this misinterpretation a thing :p .
 
L

Limit

Member
If this show were better written we would have gotten a three episode mini arc detailing how 17 got so strong in the last 10 years. His desire to protect animals, his family, guilt about his previous self, anything. Or make the Super's universe more lived in. If they had, for instance, shown a brief glimpse of 17 fighting random people/aliens in episode 10, we as viewers would have found this powerup more digestible. But as things stand, most of these power ups atm are unearned. No ifs and buts about it.
 
R

RareFantasy64

Member
The Silver said:
the real issue people have is that it's being handled so inelegantly in their view(even by DB standards), no one has a problem with the concept old characters getting back into the game and mattering in a fight. The thing is dragon ball(Z) has always been more or less about that binary "my dick is bigger than yours and you're completely worthless" type of power hierarchy and couple with the insane jumps in power Super showcased, people want some in universe justification that easily flows with the rest of the series.

All it really would've taken was some Beerus/Whis bootcamp and most of these complaints wouldn't be happening. At the end of the day Dragon Ball is a battle shounen, people want that stuff to be consistent, some people can ignore it and just go along with the ride, others value that kind of consistency a lot.


I really want to highlight more that the power that was showcased in Goku vs Beerus and letting Goku keep that power is a big part of all the power complaints Super has been getting.(and with Blue he has to be many times stronger than back then which makes it worse) The universe destruction is by far the biggest tangible visible jump in power ever seen in the series. By the end of Namek, feats, and the visual look of the fights stopped growing in scale, even went backwards actually. Beerus vs Goku was a very extreme jump that set Goku so far ahead that it looks crazy when an old character matches him in even in base(or god forbid Blue) without ample setup for it.

Personally I stopped giving a shit a while ago, just give my boy Geets more good moments and give Gohan his goddamn bang back.

If there's one power thing that would bother me at this point it's that I don't want Goku to ever be stonger than Beerus, that would destroy Beerus's character, he has to be the boss for him to work.
Click to expand...

I agree 100% with this. I can not believe how strong Goku was in that fight and then the Blue transformation has to be even stronger. I get that that is the core of the problem. That characters like 17 have Blue level power. It isn't that 17 is around Goku's ball park, it's that Goku has god powers and other seem to have them as well.

I'm not a fan of Goku keeping the god power shown in Battle of The Gods but I feel the writers are even ignoring how powerful they described that power and aren't treating it as being as strong as it was portrayed. That's how it feels at least.

In my head I ignore that universe-shattering power Goku was said to have had. Because the story doesn't even feel like he has power that strong. That's why I'm glad 17 is making Blue feel not that important. I'm tired of these god-level powers, particularly them being tied exclusively to the Saiyan duo
 
H

hupla

Member
Old man builds robots in a cave stronger than the leader of the space mafia : hmmm yes this is valid
That robot gets stronger :WHAT THE FUCK MY IMMERSION
 
S

Sheroking

Member
The Last One said:
People complaining about 17's power level when the actually stupid thing of the episode is the alliens conveniently arriving at Earth to steal the minotaur.
Click to expand...

Nah.

17's power boost is right up there with Mystic Gohan, magical poison water, Golden Freeza and Super Saiyan Rage as the stupidest shit Dragon Ball has ever done.

They really need to avoid massive power jumps in the future.
 
I

Infinite Justice

Member
Limit said:
If this show were better written we would have gotten a three episode mini arc detailing how 17 got so strong in the last 10 years. His desire to protect animals, his family, guilt about his previous self, anything. Or make the Super's universe more lived in. If they had, for instance, shown a brief glimpse of 17 fighting random people/aliens in episode 10, we as viewers would have found this powerup more digestible. But as things stand, most of these power ups atm are unearned. No ifs and buts about it.
Click to expand...

He was already shown dealing with poachers in Z so i'm not sure what that would accomplish, unless its a reminder that "hey i'm still doing this".
 
I

Infinite Justice

Member
hupla said:
Old man builds robots in a cave stronger than the leader of the space mafia : hmmm yes this is valid
That robot gets stronger :WHAT THE FUCK MY IMMERSION
Click to expand...

Not to mention having another organism that would absorb the previous 2 and be even stronger in about 20 or so years
 
T

The Last One

Member
Icyflamez96 said:
Well there are only 28 planets...
Click to expand...

Well, that's a fair point.

Sheroking said:
Nah.

17's power boost is right up there with Mystic Gohan, magical poison water, Golden Freeza and Super Saiyan Rage as the stupidest shit Dragon Ball has ever done.

They really need to avoid massive power jumps in the future.
Click to expand...

What you mean? Goku's power level was like 900 or something at the start of Z then in a year he was fighting Frieza who have millions as power level.

Massive power jumps is something happening in Dragon Ball since the Vegeta saga. This isn't changing ever.
 
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