Weird complaints considering what Freeza did it in a matter of months with a lower starting point while a character with a much higher base doing the same thing over the course of time that's 30 times longer is suddenly outrageous?
I've kind of considered Blue as just a replacement of SSJ3 to maybe being the equivalent to SSJ 3.5 or something or at best the replacement for SSJ4. ¯\_(ツ_/¯
Weird complaints considering what Freeza did it in a matter of months with a lower starting point while a character with a much higher base doing the same thing over the course of time that's 30 times longer is suddenly outrageous?
Weird complaints considering what Freeza did it in a matter of months with a lower starting point while a character with a much higher base doing the same thing over the course of time that's 30 times longer is suddenly outrageous?
I've kind of considered Blue just replaced SSJ3 to maybe 3.5 or something.
The problem is it's completely unbelievable at this point that those characters could ever get that strong. Introducing new characters is something they have always done in order to keep it going.
Just like in Super outside of Golden Frieza we've had pretty much all new characters as far as fighters. It's basically been how it's gone forever and there is no reason for them to change it up now. They have the tools to make the old characters relevant without needing them to be all-powerful but going the opposite route doesn't make the show more interesting. It does the opposite and damages it.
The best example being that even though Krillin being substantially weaker than Gohan beat him with a technique since the rules didn't need you to physically destroy your opponent, rather knock them off the stage making it objective based. Going that route would have been far far more interesting and instead it just makes it a chore and painful to watch. Even GT didn't make that mistake.
Fair enough but that model you bring up of always introducing new characters to keep up with Goku and Vegeta's power level has gotten to a point (and has been this way since the Buu saga) where even fan favorite Piccolo was pushed out of being a relevant fighter. Hit, who was barely introduced two arcs ago feels like he is just going to job for Goku's next Hit
It is unbelievable that other characters can fight the same Goku who was up in space fighting Beerus with God power levels in the first arc of this series. I agree. But the model of always bringing in new, stronger characters to throw at Goku and Vegeta's newest power up (while other characters are rendered useless) is a model that has been really divisive among fans for a long time. Something needed to change
Well I can sort of see 17 being strong, not SSB but up there, makes me wonder what Toriyama would of done to this character if it weren't for his editor meddling with the manga.
Hell, didn't they try that whole "ultimate lifeform" angle with him in GT during the Super 17 saga? (Yes, I know it's not canon just asking.)
I'd love to see Bandai games exploit this new 17 in what if scenarios, like what if he was fighting Buu, or Beerus, or taking on the new first form Frieza before Goku/Vegeta arrived?
Well I can sort of see 17 being strong, not SSB but up there, makes me wonder what Toriyama would of done to this character if it weren't for his editor meddling with the manga.
Hell, didn't they try that whole "ultimate lifeform" angle with him in GT during the Super 17 saga? (Yes, I know it's not canon just asking.)
Fair enough but that model you bring up of always introducing new characters to keep up with Goku and Vegeta's power level has gotten to a point (and has been this way since the Buu saga) where even fan favorite Piccolo was pushed out of being a relevant fighter. Hit, who was barely introduced two arcs ago feels like he is just going to job for Goku's next Hit
It is unbelievable that other characters can fight the same Goku who was up in space fighting Beerus with God power levels in the first arc of this series. I agree. But the model of always bringing in new, stronger characters to throw at Goku and Vegeta's newest power up is a model that has been really divisive among fans for a long time. Something needed to change
Piccolo can still have good fights in arcs without needing to be able to keep up with Goku. He was about to defeat Frost if not for Vegeta, for instance. Blame the writing at that point and not the rules the show-verse has been following all along.
Of course, since the powers just keep increasing, but yet the power Goku gained from training with Kami also paled compared to the power that the humans got in a much shorter amount of time (and this gets worse later when it's retconned that Goku got to train in the RoSaT while Kami hid it from the humans).
Piccolo himself somehow was acting like he had gotten a big boost from training one week with North Kaio. Of course, we never got to see his power there before he fused (although Nail claimed he was very powerful).
Every accomplishment becomes common after an arc or two. From doing the kamehameha to climbing Korin's tower to training with Kami to super saiyan 1-3. In a year you had Goku go from a power level of less than 400 to defeating Frieza and a chapter later Trunks made that look like nothing.
The series pretty much stopped doing that for the humans by the Cell arc, and for everyone besides the Saiyans for the Buu arc (which even had a bunch of senseless lines indicating that the base Saiyans were stronger than Piccolo). Super's first 3 arcs also seemed to continue with that. Future Trunks arc was the first time they seemed to be stepping back on it, but even so it was for a single character. So, really, although it happened before, it's not surprising to see backlash to it.
GT had Base Goku somehow reaching Kid Buu level from generic training. It had Uub going from Base Goku level to SSJ3 Goku level with a generic "training in the mountains" and then somehow, after fusing with Majin Buu, in the Super 17 arc, he was reduced to Goten/Trunks level, bellow base Goku (He kicks Super 17, who doesn't even flinch, while Goku sends him flying). GT's power levels were a big mess too if you actually attempt to track all statements, and in that case the mess mostly existed to favor a single character - Goku.
It's been fairly substantiated and has only been made a joke during this arc. Trunks wasn't able to even touch Vegeta when he was SSB, the Gods of Destruction and Kais were literally shitting themselves that Goku had that power. The only people up until now that have been able to withstand it are extremely powerful foes. Hit for example has been an assassin that kills for over a thousand years, even if not as strong knows how to fight. Black was the same being as Goku.
This arc? This is the same arc that had the Gods of Destruction crap themselves when they saw Goku transformed into a god. He then stomped Toppa, a candidate to be a God of Destruction. so this arc actually made Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan an even bigger deal. And again, 17 admitted that Goku could have beating him at any time.
YES!!!! Great episode. My predictions were true. He has been training. And he is a beast. The androids were designed to be saiyan busters. His strength is no suprise to me. Now excuse me while I change my shorts.
Honestly, if retconning power level bullshit is what's necessary to get side characters back to playing prominent roles, I'll gladly take that option. Power levels were always dumb anyways
Meh I don't even see this as retconning. Just more extreme power jumps, which was always a thing. Not quite to this extent, but all DB has ever given to justify this kind of stuff is some kind of clear explanation as to why. This stays consistent with that.
The Trunks nonsense is extremely bad to me because it didn't even do that. And no I'm not talking about the episode when he gets his new form.
Power levels are weird , Goku seemed like he was like 10x stronger than the stronger people minus like saiyans in Buu Saga.
God stuff made it look like he transcended regular humans and at that point we could type in a long line of random numbers on a calculator.
Then Future Trunks surpassed it as a regular saiyan without the help of Gods and nowhere to really train really.
Now 17 is stronger or about as strong as Blue while doing the same job as Krillin but in a forest setting with mountain to run on. Where was he when a lot of events threatened the earth , which happens to also threaten his village?
I don't get the issue with this episode. God powers is not something that normal people can't match if they train, which 17 has, and it was heavily implied Goku wasn't using his full power. 17's an android, so he isn't similar to Krillin.
I enjoyed it. We got a lot of extra story I didn't expect. The last few episodes have been good at throwing stuff that wasn't expected.
I think it'll be a team fight of Roshi and Tien vs. Goku, and Roshi will use the Mafuba while Tien either uses the Kikoho to keep Goku in place while Roshi charges it,
or Roshi uses it right away and Tien uses that opportunity to kick Goku out of bounds.
If they're remembering old techniques now, maybe Tenshinhan will get to use his Kamehameha Counter, which was supposed to work doesn't matter the power of the opponent's Kamehameha, but was never even mentioned after the 22nd Budokai.
What 17 stated was that if he and Goku had fought before (keyword before, as in, in the past) he probably would have lost. He didn't comment on whether or not he would lose if he fought Goku seriously at this point in time.
If they're remembering old techniques now, maybe Tenshinhan will get to use his Kamehameha Counter, which was supposed to work doesn't matter the power of the opponent's Kamehameha, but was never even mentioned after the 22nd Budokai.
I doubt that was a specific counter since Tien said back at the 23rd tournament that Goku was holding back since he never used the Kamehameha. An odd statement if he knew that Goku knew about him able to counter it.
What 17 stated was that if he and Goku had fought before (keyword before, as in, in the past) he probably would have lost. He didn't comment on whether or not he would lose if he fought Goku seriously at this point in time.
17 has been training for 10 fucking years. In terms of DBZ logic 10 years is a long fucking time. 17 was young and already pretty goddamned powerful...remember Uub is just a kid and yet equal to Majin Buu.
Since when it was mentioned that Uub is equal to Majin Buu? I thought he's just a strong kid with huge potential, but his power level isn't up there yet.
What 17 stated was that if he and Goku had fought before (keyword before, as in, in the past) he probably would have lost. He didn't comment on whether or not he would lose if he fought Goku seriously at this point in time.
I doubt that was a specific counter since Tien said back at the 23rd tournament that Goku was holding back since he never used the Kamehameha. An odd statement if he knew that Goku knew about him able to counter it.
Even with that counter he still was technically knocked down by Goku's Kamehameha in the 22nd Budokai, since Goku used it to launch himself against Tenshinhan, rather than hit him with the beam directly. So that doesn't mean the counter wouldn't work. The only description we have like I mentioned above outright said that the power of the technique was irrelevant.
Like how 2 17's fused together, one like you said shouldn't even be SSJ2 level = Stronger than SSJ4, only to be defeated by base form Goku a few episodes later.
The flow of the conversation (and 17's use of "ano koro") means 17 was stating Goku would have beaten him back when 17 was actually thinking of killing him. Goku isn't quite as sure since he now sees what 17 is (was) capable of.
Then they go on to say they're still holding back on each other.
Even with that counter he still was technically knocked down by Goku's Kamehameha in the 22nd Budokai, since Goku used it to launch himself against Tenshinhan, rather than hit him with the beam directly. So that doesn't mean the counter wouldn't work. The only description we have like I mentioned above outright said that the power of the technique was irrelevant.
The flow of the conversation (and 17's use of "ano koro") means 17 was stating Goku would have beaten him back when 17 was actually thinking of killing him. Goku isn't quite as sure since he now sees what 17 is (was) capable of.
Then they go on to say they're still holding back on each other.
Goku would be sure since he knew where 17 stood to him before and after he left the time chamber. So it would be Goku being humble. And Goku straight out said, 'I will try not to kill you'.
This is from the story that made it so not only can you be beat to nearly death, healed, and then get a humongous power-up, but you can also exploit this by having your friend shoot you with a healer next to you to immediately solve the problem and give you the power up.
17 said he might not have been able to defeat Goku back then during the Cell saga.
There are 2 truths to this. 17 was stronger than Goku before ROSAT. Goku was stronger than 17 after ROSAT.
Goku said "I don't know about that."
Most likely indicating that before the ROSAT he would have been destroyed by 17.
Then they go on to talk about the present. They are both presumably holding back.
This is from the story that made it so not only can you be beat to nearly death, healed, and then get a humongous power-up, but you can also exploit this by having your friend shoot you with a healer next to you to immediately solve the problem and give you the power up.
I'm sick of Saiyans hogging all the attention. Get yours, 17.
17 said he might not have been able to defeat Goku back then during the Cell saga.
There are 2 truths to this. 17 was stronger than Goku before ROSAT. Goku was stronger than 17 after ROSAT.
Goku said "I don't know about that."
Most likely indicating that before the ROSAT he would have been destroyed by 17.
Then they go on to talk about the present. They are both presumably holding back.
Toriyama mentioned it in an interview years ago. It was the one where the confirmed the ranger thing too though some think TFS came up with the concept.
Toriyama mentioned it in an interview years ago. It was the one where the confirmed the ranger thing too though some think TFS came up with the concept.
_/¯
