Aaronrules380
Member
This is literally impossible, since humans are inherently judgemental creatures. And how somebody became a gigantic asshole doesn't excuse them for being a gigantic asshole
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Judging people for political beliefs
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metalslimer
Member
Uh yeah, as a gay person if I know the person is a hardcore conservative, that's the first thing coming to mind if I'm speaking with them because I know they think I aint worth shit
Politics isn't opinion on food or movies. It affects others.
I am immediately suspicious of people who support the politics of theory. That is to say, they support a political philosophy that has never been proven, and is loosely mapped to democracy. I really mean libertarianism, but there are extreme visions of socialism that are just as dumb and unworkable.
I am suspicious of republicans right now who have such a toxic stew of ideology that very few of them ever honestly describe what they're actually doing. For example:
"Obamacare is collapsing!" - um yes, you met with healthcare lobbyists and deliberately collapsed it.
"Trumpcare is a real healthcare plan" - un no, you stripmined the potential to pay for a trillion dollar tax break.
Republicans now are in a wholly Orwellian environment and even the good ones are simply chained to a big lie.
Democrats are chaotic, lack pragmatism and clarity of vision and unity of purpose, but they are genuinely there to represent a point of view that isn't toxic when described honestly. They're not perfect, the succumb to lobbyists and corruption, but their party platform is true. Not a bizarre inversion of fact: "We believe in religious freedom" - actually means "We wish to use religious values to oppress stuff our base hates because that's an easy win"
So yes I judge people for their politics. And my judgement is based on their actions and the effects of those actions.
I am immediately suspicious of people who support the politics of theory. That is to say, they support a political philosophy that has never been proven, and is loosely mapped to democracy. I really mean libertarianism, but there are extreme visions of socialism that are just as dumb and unworkable.
I am suspicious of republicans right now who have such a toxic stew of ideology that very few of them ever honestly describe what they're actually doing. For example:
"Obamacare is collapsing!" - um yes, you met with healthcare lobbyists and deliberately collapsed it.
"Trumpcare is a real healthcare plan" - un no, you stripmined the potential to pay for a trillion dollar tax break.
Republicans now are in a wholly Orwellian environment and even the good ones are simply chained to a big lie.
Democrats are chaotic, lack pragmatism and clarity of vision and unity of purpose, but they are genuinely there to represent a point of view that isn't toxic when described honestly. They're not perfect, the succumb to lobbyists and corruption, but their party platform is true. Not a bizarre inversion of fact: "We believe in religious freedom" - actually means "We wish to use religious values to oppress stuff our base hates because that's an easy win"
So yes I judge people for their politics. And my judgement is based on their actions and the effects of those actions.
Well I wont' stop trying. I don't think I knew how to judge when I was born, it's something we learn. From an evolutionary standpoint it does us well in most cases, but it's something we can work on controlling. I'll judge in my head, but attempt to listen with an open mind. It beats going into a conversation with no intent on listening to the person.
One quote I read stuck with me "Whenever you talk to someone, be prepared to be amazed". You can take whatever you want away from it, but I try to think that talking to someone will break down my thoughts on them. Maybe reinforce some of them, but change others.
GuessMyUserName
Member
In politics it's entirely fucking relevant, these people are increasingly prevalent in the current political discourse, spreading nothing but "white genocide" bullshit.
Razorback
Member
What if it's not a hardcore conservative, what if it's just some guy that made a right-leaning comment once, like in OP's case?
Flat chance has a lot less chance of becoming reality
Always-honest
Banned
It's weird how politics play no actual role in daily life (depending on where you live).
It's mostly people who are in power (and who want to keep that power) who consider politics important. So we have to vote and it seems really important. And after the vote we have zero influence on how things roll out.
Power is the ability realize your needs and interests, at the cost of other people's needs and interests. Thinking you have more right to your personal pursuit of happiness compared to other people's pursuit of happiness.
Regular people just want to be happy and be with their family and friends and have a bit of fun. We help each other and even strangers with no problem. The most existing problems are there because of politics and scary power hungry individuals. Take 30 of those individuals and you have a recipe for disaster. They use their divide and conquer tactics on the rest.
I don't really want to hang around with anyone who is too involved in politics.
Not because the topics aren't important. I just don't trust their integrity. At all.
It's mostly people who are in power (and who want to keep that power) who consider politics important. So we have to vote and it seems really important. And after the vote we have zero influence on how things roll out.
Power is the ability realize your needs and interests, at the cost of other people's needs and interests. Thinking you have more right to your personal pursuit of happiness compared to other people's pursuit of happiness.
Regular people just want to be happy and be with their family and friends and have a bit of fun. We help each other and even strangers with no problem. The most existing problems are there because of politics and scary power hungry individuals. Take 30 of those individuals and you have a recipe for disaster. They use their divide and conquer tactics on the rest.
I don't really want to hang around with anyone who is too involved in politics.
Not because the topics aren't important. I just don't trust their integrity. At all.
Raptomex
Member
I'm not political at all and usually avoid political conversations in general. But now I make sure not to bring up anything that could lead to a political conversion in any social situations. People are too fucking crazy and never shut the hell up about it. As long as you're not an asshole in general, we'll be fine.
What do I care who you support? And the whole "if you support this person or that person that immediately makes you a terrible person" argument I've been reading and hearing is absolute bullshit and that just makes you an asshole. I know people who voted for Trump and they're still good people. They're not Nazis or racists or whatever everybody immediately assumes these people are. I also know many people who voted for Hillary and I associate with them as well. Now if all of a sudden any of these people I know on either side went out and started acting racist or doing despicable things, then, yeah, I'll probably stop hanging around them. But that's because of their actions, not who they support or what they believe in. Did their beliefs drive these horrible actions? Probably. But until you do something despicable I have no reason to believe you're an awful human being.
I treat it like religion. I think religion is all bullshit but I know many people who believe in God. I don't judge because I don't care. That's their beliefs. Whatever makes you happy. Just be cool and don't push it on me and we'll fine. I don't immediately assume religious people are pedophiles or homophobic or whatever.
What do I care who you support? And the whole "if you support this person or that person that immediately makes you a terrible person" argument I've been reading and hearing is absolute bullshit and that just makes you an asshole. I know people who voted for Trump and they're still good people. They're not Nazis or racists or whatever everybody immediately assumes these people are. I also know many people who voted for Hillary and I associate with them as well. Now if all of a sudden any of these people I know on either side went out and started acting racist or doing despicable things, then, yeah, I'll probably stop hanging around them. But that's because of their actions, not who they support or what they believe in. Did their beliefs drive these horrible actions? Probably. But until you do something despicable I have no reason to believe you're an awful human being.
I treat it like religion. I think religion is all bullshit but I know many people who believe in God. I don't judge because I don't care. That's their beliefs. Whatever makes you happy. Just be cool and don't push it on me and we'll fine. I don't immediately assume religious people are pedophiles or homophobic or whatever.
Aaronrules380
Member
Politics absolutely play a major role in everyone's daily life, it's just not always obvious if you don't pay attention. You don't think issues like healthcare, education, minimum wage, taxes, etc. don't effect fucking everyone?
Trash bin them. There are loads of people in this world, wonderful supportive caring people I can spend my time with. You start making any sort of right leaning comments around me and you're dead in my eyes.
OG Shaka Zulu
Member
I absolutely judge rightwingers and the respect I have for acquaintances and in-laws goes down a notch automatically. I treat them the same though.
PlayALLtheGames
Banned
Yes it makes the latter completely warranted and right.
What are you even saying? I'll use my previous example again: voting for a racist is the same as telling people, "I'm fine with racism." These are the same things. The fact that you're simply avoiding the latter by doing the former doesn't change that.
And it can be applied to voting to screw poor people, make healthcare and education a privilege, treat Climate Change as a farce, give tax cuts to the rich, reduce access to abortions, etc.
That's not just a political difference; that's a fundamental difference in the way you view life and value other human beings and the world. And they're not just differences in opinion about how to make things better. Some things are demonstrably wrong, morally corrupt, ineffective, useless and downright evil; other things are demonstrably the opposite. If someone is voting for the former, how the hell is it NOT right to judge them based on that?
I've never heard anything that bad. Maybe a negative comment about Clinton, or making a joke about safe spaces.
One said he voted for Trump because he wants him to "blow everything up". These are largely nice, smart people, but I can't entirely look past their politics.
I tend to agree with this. I'm not an expert in any aspect of politics, but there are some thing (healthcare, climate change) that I am 100% sure the GOP is wrong on and I don't think I could be convinced otherwise.
Yeah, I think about this sometimes too. Yet I think about politics all the time, have imaginary arguments in my head, and it even keeps me up at night sometimes.
I often think about this passage from the New Yorker's "A Hundred Days of Trump"
Octavianus
Banned
Phrozenflame500
Member
It depends a lot of why they support a position. If they're not being malicious then I can just shrug it off if I think they're misinformed and/or stubborn.
Darryl M R
Member
Racism and sexism (and others) aren't political beliefs. So I'll judge you if your stances support either.
Razorback
Member
See, this is the kind of thing that I believe isn't helpful.
People's beliefs and their actual character don't necessarily have to align. Our choice in politics is often imposed on us by our in-group, just like religious beliefs. If someone says they're a Christian I don't immediately jump to the conclusion that they must be anti-gay.
Holding contradictory beliefs isn't rare, it's human nature.
You're assuming that the average voter is as educated, savvy and aware as you. There are many types of voters, all voting for different reasons. I can't say for fact that someone agrees with every stance of one political party, or any stance. I can't pick which ones I think they agree with, or disagree. All I can do is talk to them to try and find out.
MotionBlue
Member
Conflating anything in recent American politics to the systemic murder of 6 million Jews, and millions of disabled/minority/political opponents is an insult to those victims. It is hyperbolic and makes you sound like a loon.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
You aren't born into hating LGBTQ, brown people or the environment. If people espouse shitty political beliefs and support a political party that is slowly turning into some sort of dictatorship then they shouldn't be afraid to be judged by others.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
Political views represent a person's world view and values. It's impossible not to judge them as people if you know them and think they're a cunt because of it.
I think much less of my uncle despite the kindness and care he shows me because of his Trump supporting views, his views on poverty being 'bootstraps' and the fact that he owns a flat that he doesn't live in. I wouldn't call myself a bad person for judging him negatively because of those views, because I feel those opinions and deeds are objectively wrong (and not in the 'I actually mean well' way).
I could understand if not agree with believing in things like low corporation tax for reasons of more company development and investment, creating more opportunities for people if they mean well by it and genuinely believe they help people.
I think much less of my uncle despite the kindness and care he shows me because of his Trump supporting views, his views on poverty being 'bootstraps' and the fact that he owns a flat that he doesn't live in. I wouldn't call myself a bad person for judging him negatively because of those views, because I feel those opinions and deeds are objectively wrong (and not in the 'I actually mean well' way).
I could understand if not agree with believing in things like low corporation tax for reasons of more company development and investment, creating more opportunities for people if they mean well by it and genuinely believe they help people.
Octavianus
Banned
I don't agree. Whatever group someone chooses to align with says a lot about their character and if said group is in favour of treating me like I'm sub-human trash I really just don't want to interact with him/her.
No they're not.
Fudgepuppy
Banned
In Sweden I would only negatively judge someone if they voted for the nationalist party, because most other parties are in the grand scheme of things, pretty moderate with some valid standpoints. It's a lot more nuanced than the politics in America.
I do however have a colleague who's an MRA, anti-feminist, libertarian who hates everything with the government, and I rightfully so, judge him as an idiot.
I'm not mean to him though.
I do however have a colleague who's an MRA, anti-feminist, libertarian who hates everything with the government, and I rightfully so, judge him as an idiot.
I'm not mean to him though.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
It's not really a "Godwin" when discussing something explicitly political. Nazism is a political ideology after all.
Oh that is such sheer nonsense when talking about literal neo-nazis. Come on.
Good post. Agreed on every point.
Depends on what that comment was.
That's probably true, but I imagine many people who believe in it are just misguided and think it would help the poor instead of screw them over, whereas actively racist ideologies don't get the benefit of doubt.
A person's political views is a good summation of their own morality and worldview. If it's shit, then yeah you have to say it's shit. Hiding behind how someone was raised or a religious doctrine is a poor attempt to find excuses for how they align their political views because those are probably shit too.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
Okay, that one does sound rather insane and barbaric. I would judge someone negatively for saying that too.
Unless by blow everything up he meant bring on the collapse of society. Well, voting for the sake of kek is still the definition of silly.
CherryIcee
Member
It's hard not to judge members of my family when they post garbage like this on Facebook:
I've tried to engage them in conversation but they do not want to hear it. It has made family get togethers awkward.
I've tried to engage them in conversation but they do not want to hear it. It has made family get togethers awkward.
Your football team isn't trying to take away my relatives' healthcare. Your football team doesn't treat undocumented immigrants and their children as less than human.
You can have right leaning connotations and still be a fine person. These people vote in republicans in their local districts who mirrors their ideals and hopefully try to make life better for everyone. Not all republicans are racists, not all democrats are liberals.
That being said, if you're a hardcore Trump fan, someone who has a long long LOOOONG list of sexist, racist, xenophobic behavior and encourages other people to act on said notions, you're probably racist and I don't want to associate with you.
Your football team isn't trying to stop my aunt from getting cancer treatments.
This isn't about rah rah bullshit, there is a very real loss of life consequence to the shit these people are trying to push. I'm still bewildered at these coal miners in Appalachia who are literally dying, know their health care will be repealed by any republican bill that gets signed into law, but are still just fine and dandy with Trump's administration to the point where they would vote for him again.
Sweeney Tom
Banned
When someone is saying homophobic/anti-gay/anti-LGBTQ+ shit in general, I don't care if they're co-worker, friend, or flesh and blood family. That's my life they're shitting on. Damn right I'm gonna judge them for it.
"These people are so complacent with the attempts of killing me and mine, they wear have bumper stickers and hats endorsing it."
It's not that hard, to the point where I wonder if you don't judge people, or you're actively ignoring the problems because it makes everyday life easier to live.
Conciliator
Banned
the list of beyond-the-pale beliefs keeps getting longer
personally i won't break bread with someone has ever laughed at Jeff Dunham. he's a racist comedian - watching him supports racism - laughing at Jeff Dunham literally makes you a white supremacy enabler. disgusting.
i explained the monty hall problem to a friend and he refused to believe it. he still thinks switching doors is a 50% chance. That's against the very laws of math and the natural universe. what a fuckin maniac. we're not friends anymore
don't even get me started on people who believe in any sort of religious or spiritual doctrine. completely irresponsible. think about all the violence done in the name of religion. deleted them all from my phone.
personally i won't break bread with someone has ever laughed at Jeff Dunham. he's a racist comedian - watching him supports racism - laughing at Jeff Dunham literally makes you a white supremacy enabler. disgusting.
i explained the monty hall problem to a friend and he refused to believe it. he still thinks switching doors is a 50% chance. That's against the very laws of math and the natural universe. what a fuckin maniac. we're not friends anymore
don't even get me started on people who believe in any sort of religious or spiritual doctrine. completely irresponsible. think about all the violence done in the name of religion. deleted them all from my phone.
I'm sure I'm pretty right about
Not discriminating against brown people
Looking to fix the racism in our police force, not support or cheer it on
Not building a wall to keep brown people out
Not banning muslim
Not taking healthcare away from people
Not making it harder for the poor to go to college
Not fighting against LGBT rights
Not defunding planned parenthood
Shall I go on?
These are not unknown factors, these are literally part of the GOP platform that they shout from rooftops so if you voted for trump or the GOP you support these things. No excuses. Period. At absolute best you didnt bother to think about these positions (which falls under ignorance) but ignorance has never been an excuse when your decisions actually cause harm to others.
Uh, what? Yes it is? Most of the time the law is invoked is in the context of explicitly political discussion, and that's certainly the context around which Mike Godwin came up with it. People who disagree about which movies or games are good aren't the ones calling each other nazis.
More to the point, I think it's honestly case-by-case. I would certainly have to meet and talk with just about anyone before judging them (with obvious thresholds, e.g. unambiguous racism or the like). But like you say, with issues like tax policy my first instinct is not to attribute any explicit malice to an individual with differing opinions from my own.
I mean, yes. There is a difference between being inept and being evil. That being said, I wouldn't want someone who is either in a position of power.
I think the question is, "how many people will have to die young before we start holding people accountable for their bullshit?" I ask that a lot, and I'm surprised everytime I'm proven wrong by lowballing the number.
Psychoward
Banned
Psychoward
Banned
I've got some bad news for you.
tearsintherain
Member
I judge people on their actions and what I see them do, not their thoughts and what they say.
I've seen a lot of people who all claim to be good and moral and then the little things (tipping, ignoring homeless people, walking away from someone in pain, vandalizing, littering, how they treat people in shitty jobs) shows they are not the good people they pretend to be.
I've seen a lot of people who all claim to be good and moral and then the little things (tipping, ignoring homeless people, walking away from someone in pain, vandalizing, littering, how they treat people in shitty jobs) shows they are not the good people they pretend to be.
Voting is something you do.
PlayALLtheGames
Banned
Oh absolutely you should talk to them and find out. I certainly don't condone making a strong judgement about someone just from being a self-identified Republican. Kim Davis was a fucking registered Democrat before all that shit happened and I'd take many Republicans I know personally over that piece of shit.
I was specific about the voting thing as a way to make a point about how your vote says things about what you believe and think about other people, and since the discussion was about political beliefs in general, my post was made under the assumption that you sort of know a fair amount about that person's beliefs.
But, yeah, you should definitely talk to people and find out. On that note, I've always said you can talk about these things without ever using partisan terminology (Democrat, Republican, liberal, conservative, etc), as that often muddles the conversation.
All you have to do is talk about policies. When someone tells me what they think our policies on today's major issues should be, they've told me everything I need to know and enough to judge them one way or another.
Voting is something you do based off of what you personally believe.
What's your bad "news"? That he/she's in fact wrong about these people that he/she personally knows, and that you, as an outsider without any personal information about them outside of their vote in the 2016 presidential election, and having never met them, are here to enlighten said poster by declaring these people to be definitively "bad"? If only we had figured out earlier that the age-old question of what it means to be "good" can be easily answered by looking at a single vote! Would've saved us thousands of years worth of ethical quandaries.
Not helpful to who? Because it helps me greatly to weed out the trash which has somehow found its way into my life. I don't give a fuck about being helpful to right leaning folks. They don't deserve my time and energy.
If someone says they are a Christian, great, good for you. There are good Christians. You start talking about 'religious freedom' or how homosexuality is a sin or treat Christianity as a label and shorthand for 'morality' while being a hypocrite, then you go in the trash bin. Dead. To. Me.
Hickbilly Deluxe
Banned
They can vote for Space Duck Admiral Saddam Rasputin Bin Hitlerini for all I care. They do right by me, I'll do right by them.
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