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[Mesoian]

What's your bad "news"? That he/she's in fact wrong about these people that he/she personally knows, and that you, as an outsider without any personal information about them outside of their vote in the 2016 presidential election, and having never met them, are here to enlighten said poster by declaring these people to be definitively "bad"?

Because that would be absurd if that's what your news is.

I mean, it means the people who he knows, even if they're very nice in his eyes, are still completely complacent with all of the fallout that's happened due to the Trump administration.

So while his family and friends may not be racist, they're fine with racists, they're fine with sexists, they're fine with xenophobia. That is the message voting for trump and supporting him to this point puts across. It's a big fat, "I'm not racist...BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT..."

And that's not uncommon, because until it's happening directly to you, most people don't care about anything. But let's not sugar coat this.

If only we had figured out earlier that the age-old question of what it means to be "good" can be easily answered by looking at a single vote! Would've saved us thousands of years worth of ethical quandaries.

Yes, it's almost like we didn't just have an election where the popular vote was a major factor.

Oh wait...

 

[Octavianus]

What's your bad "news"? That he/she's in fact wrong about these people that he/she personally knows, and that you, as an outsider without any personal information about them outside of their vote in the 2016 presidential election, and having never met them, are here to enlighten said poster by declaring these people to be definitively "bad"? If only we had figured out earlier that the age-old question of what it means to be "good" can be easily answered by looking at a single vote! Would've saved us thousands of years worth of ethical quandaries.

When you vote for this you're bad people
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX9reO3QnUA
It's not complicated.

 

[MrBadger]

If you can't judge someone's character based on their personal beliefs, what can you judge them on?

 

[Kalamari]

"These people are so complacent with the attempts of killing me and mine, they wear have bumper stickers and hats endorsing it."

It's not that hard, to the point where I wonder if you don't judge people, or you're actively ignoring the problems because it makes everyday life easier to live.

Perhaps it's the opposite, life is easier to live when people judge others, people love to feel superior, even if it's in their own imagination.

 

[Aaronrules380]

Perhaps it's the opposite, life is easier to live when people judge others, people love to feel superior, even if it's in their own imagination.

This sounds awfully judgemental lol

 

[chadtwo]

I mean, it means the people who he knows, even if they're very nice in his eyes, are still completely complacent with all of the fallout that's happened due to the Trump administration.

So while his family and friends may not be racist, they're fine with racists, they're fine with sexists, they're fine with xenophobia. That is the message voting for trump and supporting him to this point puts across. It's a big fat, "I'm not racist...BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT..."

And that's not uncommon, because until it's happening directly to you, most people don't care about anything. But let's not sugar coat this.



Yes, it's almost like we didn't just have an election where the popular vote was a major factor.

Oh wait...

I don't disagree with you. The issue is that even if all of those things are true of the people he knows, those facts by themselves do not necessarily provide adequate foundation for an overall judgment of moral character in terms of "good" or "bad."

When you vote for this you're bad people
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX9reO3QnUA
It's not complicated.

Now that you have posted a Youtube clip of Trump being an asshole, I see how right you are.

 

[OG Shaka Zulu]

I'm ok with judging nazi's.



I completely stop interacting with them personally.

I only have to see the rightwinger in laws once or twice a year and they never bring up politics in person. I keep it cordial for the sake of keeping the peace but I truly think some of them are dumber than turds.

 

[Preacher]

Good, fucking politics is what we should judge everyone on. Politics affects almost everything in society

 

[GuessMyUserName]

Conflating anything in recent American politics to the systemic murder of 6 million Jews, and millions of disabled/minority/political opponents is an insult to those victims. It is hyperbolic and makes you sound like a loon.

Nobody has done that? But just because there isn't a holocaust doesn't mean nazis don't exist anymore, what the fuck. They even keep the exact same branding and symbolism. They aren't leading a country into war but they're not as deep underground or extinct as you think.

Maybe you're thrown off thinking I was referring to Republicans? No, I'm talking about the growing presence of actual self-labeled neo-nazi groups to show how surely there has to be a line where politics can be "judged".

 

[TheOnlyOneHeEverFeared]

I don't feel bad about judging people on their political beliefs. Racists, homophobes, people who care about having a few extra pennies in their banks rather than everyone being able to access affordable healthcare/a decent education/food/rent and would happily ban an entire religion of people/races based on their own prejudices, and who endorse politicians who espouse such beliefs are scumbags I have no wish to engage with.

 

[Schattenjäger]

I know Democrats, I know Republicans. I associate with all of them and all of them are sane, well balanced normal people who simply differ in political beliefs. I too am a sane, well balanced normal human so I just agree to disagree and don't resort to name calling, or stereotyping.

I've met rabid extremists on either end of the spectrum. I've been called names, but my general belief is all of these people are just miserable on the inside and project that outwards. Afterall, misery loves company.

Excellent post and exactly how I feel.
Politics is just one giant spin game.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

I will judge anyone with right leaning politics as either or both:

A) Ignorant
B) Bigoted

If you support the ideologies of inequality I cannot fathom any other possibility than the above.

 

[Ron Mexico]

If we get to the point where all you've given me is politics, I've already made my judgement.

 

[Mesoian]

I don't disagree with you. The issue is that even if all of those things are true of the people he knows, those facts by themselves do not necessarily provide adequate foundation for an overall judgment of moral character in terms of "good" or "bad.

Let's just say, I disagree.

 

[spock]

"Only the Sith believe in absolutes"

Most people think their right regardless if they are or are not. Most are basing their views on the media they consume and aspects of their environment, along with the frames of reference and bias built over time.

To judge people HARSHLY on their political beliefs alone is foolishness and shows a lack of maturity IMO. We are all layered and varied and if you gave me enough time I'm sure I could find things you believe in or value that are not aligned with the rest of the "pack" you align yourself with. This goes for ANY person who supports any party.

I think one can factor in a persons political views (along with everything else) to get an idea where they stand for certain things, but using it as a be all end all judgment in isolation is foolhardy.

 

[Koomaster]

Perhaps it's the opposite, life is easier to live when people judge others, people love to feel superior, even if it's in their own imagination.

Judging others to determine if they care about you or the issues you face = wanting to feel superior.

Yeah....

Look, I'm sure you don't divide your time equally with every single person you run across in life. You spend more time with your best friends vs a friend of a friend or other random people you know. Why? Because you judge everyone based on something, and it's mostly how that person makes you feel.

If I feel stressed, uncomfortable or angry around right leaning people, I shouldn't be forced to spend time with them. Especially when they are voting for people who enact polices which actively negatively affect me.

If I tell you I voted for X-politician who wants to create a law that people with your name are legally allowed to be assaulted, you'd not want to associate with me. And that's not you judging me to feel superior. That's you realizing I'm an asshole for voting for you to be harmed with impunity.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Definitely do it myself.

Here's one I've heard in this area that immediately makes me write someone off "The civil war was fought based on economic concerns." I always snidely respond with "Yeah, the economics of owning people, must have meant a lot of profit when you didn't have to pay your workers."

Actually... being in Kansas I do this a lot. I've heard some stunning, hateful ignorance from the populace. "No Republicans are the good ones because they aren't going around killing babies." from the same stupid PoS I heard "Just turn the area into glass. That'll teach them!" my response was a concise "I hear you say anything that stupid and hateful in my house again and you'll never be allowed back in. You're talking about tens of millions of women and children, dying in a nuclear fire, because of an extremist portion of the populace. It'd be like nuking Oklahoma in response to Timothy McVeigh."

Some people are just naturally hate-filled. A good chunk, in this area, the most "devout" of Christians who think they have the moral high ground by virtue of being Christian, while being so far away from Christ-like.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

"Only the Sith believe in absolutes"

Most people think their right regardless if they are or are not. Most are basing their views on the media they consume and aspects of their environment, along with the frames of reference and bias built over time.

To judge people HARSHLY on their political beliefs is foolishness and show a lack of maturity IMO. We are all layered and varied and if you gave me enough time I'm sure I could find things you believe in or value that are not aligned with the rest of the "pack" you align yourself with. This goes for ANY person who supports any party.

Yes judging people on the impact their political following has on the nation, its people, and the world is extremely immature. Are you serious?

 

[Mesoian]

Perhaps it's the opposite, life is easier to live when people judge others, people love to feel superior, even if it's in their own imagination.

I mean, you're right. And honestly, it's fine when it's something trivial like what sports team you like or what game console you own or what movie you think is the best.

But when lives are literally hanging in the balance, and you treat that like some rah rah bullshit because it gives you a high, you're an asshole. I'd expect people to be able to tell the difference between the Patriots winning their 5th superbowl and Trump demolishing healthcare in order to fund a paycut to his ilk that will leave the country damn near destitute unless we choose to ignore it and let him take the money and run.

 

[chadtwo]

Let's just say, I disagree.

And you're of course free to! But you don't think there is any amount of benevolence over any number of years that could exempt a Trump voter from designation as "bad"?

 

[Mesoian]

And you're of course free to! But you don't think there is any amount of benevolence over any number of years that could exempt a Trump voter from designation as "bad"?

Regret over the decision. Hey, maybe you got swept in the bullshit. Maybe you're on hard times and you were looking for someone to blame. Maybe you thought Trump actually would run the country like a business and provide new jobs that'd put you in a better position.

Maybe you got duped.

Okay. Fine. But at this point, after everything that's happened, that's still happening, that's going to keep happening, you have to admit that you got duped and are ready for some real meaningful change, whether that means finding a Republican who isn't a corporate mouthpiece who will sell out your well being for a nice house or whether or it means switching parties and demanding more from the spineless entrenched dems who are holding their seats almost solely due to the fact that the other side of the aisle is comprised of CW supervillains.

But if you're still supporting him NOW, you are a bad person. Full stop.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

Why the fuck not? There are plenty of people out there who are happy to judge others for shit they can't control. I can't do the same for conscious decisions that hurt the innocent?

 

[GuessMyUserName]

To judge people HARSHLY on their political beliefs is alone foolishness and shows a lack of maturity IMO.

... You.... do realize this is a judgment right? So among someone that believes gays don't deserve basic human rights, and someone that takes offense to that "political belief", the latter is the only one you can judge the character of for making a judgment of the former?

 

[TheOnlyOneHeEverFeared]

'My political beliefs include denying rights to LGBT and women, banning Muslims from entering the USA/UK because reasons, cutting off welfare to poor people because some slippery goomba has convinced me thats helping poor people is why I don't earn as much/poor people don't use their welfare to a standard I think is appropriate, and I don't think poor people deserve access to healthcare, or they should be crippled by debts for years because they got sick or hurt'


Now if thats peoples political beliefs or even if they only held one or two of those beliefs (and people do, and even here on gaf) then why wouldn't you judge them?

 

[chadtwo]

Regret over the decision. Hey, maybe you got swept in the bullshit. Maybe you're on hard times and you were looking for someone to blame. Maybe you thought Trump actually would run the country like a business and provide new jobs that'd put you in a better position.

Maybe you got duped.

Okay. Fine. But at this point, after everything that's happened, that's still happening, that's going to keep happening, you have to admit that you got duped and are ready for some real meaningful change, whether that means finding a Republican who isn't a corporate mouthpiece who will sell out your well being for a nice house or whether or it means switching parties and demanding more from the spineless entrenched dems who are holding their seats almost solely due to the fact that the other side of the aisle is comprised of CW supervillains.

But if you're still supporting him NOW, you are a bad person. Full stop.

So the temporal threshold between someone possibly being a bad person due to supporting Trump and definitely, no further information required, objectively, being a bad person for supporting Trump is 6 months? If, hypothetically, a single vote isn't enough to negate years and years of benevolence or good will, then 6 months of support (however we are defining that) after the election is?

My point isn't to defend Trump supporters (certainly not politically, at least), but that you should not categorically equate support of Trump with moral badness. And by the way, this is not to say that some judgments aren't appropriate based on presidential votes, so in a sense I agree with the general notion of judging people based on votes. But I think the relevant judgments are generally not morally decisive.

 

[Ponn]

'My political beliefs include denying rights to LGBT and women, banning Muslims from entering the USA/UK because reasons, cutting off welfare to poor people because some slippery goomba has convinced me thats helping poor people is why I don't earn as much/poor people don't use their welfare to a standard I think is appropriate, and I don't think poor people deserve access to healthcare, or they should be crippled by debts for years because they got sick or hurt'


Now if thats peoples political beliefs or even if they only held one or two of those beliefs (and people do, and even here on gaf) then why wouldn't you judge them?

Because they don't want to be judged for their beliefs, just like racists and bigots loathe to be called racists and bigots. Like whenever there's a thread on cheating or snitching people come out of the woodwork screaming stop snitching and mind your own business. People don't want to have to feel bad or accountable for their actions as long as they can keep the consequences at arms length or out of sight.

 

[Nafai1123]

Hell yes I judge people for supporting bigoted pieces of shit.

 

[Kalamari]

Hmm, seems like the debate is headed towards Relativism vs Objectivism.

 

[spock]

... You.... do realize this is a judgment right? So among someone that believes gays don't deserve basic human rights, and someone that takes offense to that "political belief", the latter is the only one you can judge the character of for making a judgment of the former?

Well in the quote you cited I did say it was IMO. And of course, we all make some level of judgment about everything, but I'm taking about rigidity and scope in the defining of a persons entire being, etc... In regards to gay and human right issues in general...do you think there are democrats who dont support gay marriage or have beliefs one could argue are against certain human rights? Do you think there are any republicans who support gay and human rights issues?

People have different value hierarchies. Most take a stand in relation to what is important to them and use that as their primary filter. They then consciously or unconsciously ignore things lower in their value chain. But odds are if you looked closer at a persons layers and asked the right questions, the picture would become more complicated.

 

[polyh3dron]

I won't judge someone for being a fiscal conservative or something, but when you want to deny basic human rights to people because of their race, religion or sexual orientation, then yeah, I will judge you. And that is what the Republican Party's philosophy has been for decades.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

They can vote for Space Duck Admiral Saddam Rasputin Bin Hitlerini for all I care. They do right by me, I'll do right by them.

Pretty much. I just go by how they treat me and mine. Not constantly parsing a litmus test.

 

[MIMIC]

I had absolutely ZERO discussions with one of my new friends about politics. I have no idea what his political affiliations are, and I frankly didn't want to know, because I knew with absolute certainty that if I would judge him.

So we just don't talk about it.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

The nicest person you know will always have at least one fucked up viewpoint.

I have some fairly extremist friends from all across the spectrum (revolutionary communists, ex girlfriend was a borderline fascist). Most of my closest friends are largely apolitical.

 

[Kai Dracon]

Being judged over one's political beliefs is directly proportional to extent one's politics demonstrably harm other people.

Generally speaking, when a person advocates a policy for society that hurts people, they try to rationalize the damage away and delude themselves on the true dimensions of the politics they support. Unless they're a complete sociopath and openly proud of harming others for their own gain. ("They'd do it to me, I just fucked them first.")

Thus you get people who flat out support hurting others and denying human rights that get quite offended at being judged for their "mere opinion". It's the rage of children caught doing a bad thing who puff up and scream that they're not doing the exact thing they're currently doing. ("Jimmy, take your hand out of the cookie jar." "IT'S NOT IT'S NOT IT'S NOT! YOU'RE NOT FAIR!")

Interestingly, these kind of childish outbursts have been getting pretty common among republicans challenged in public for their odious agenda. They just ball up their fists, get red faced, and start screaming at people.

 

[Rookhelm]

I usually give people the benefit of the doubt until they say something like "libtard", then that's when I nope out.

 

[perfectchaos007]

I don't judge people simply by what party they tend to vote for. I get to know the individual and then start to make my conclusions based off of the human interactions we have.

 

[Joe Condor]

If you can't judge someone's character based on their personal beliefs, what can you judge them on?

Their actions?

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Being judged over one's political beliefs is directly proportional to extent one's politics demonstrably harm other people.

Generally speaking, when a person advocates a policy for society that hurts people, they try to rationalize the damage away and delude themselves on the true dimensions of the politics they support. Unless they're a complete sociopath and openly proud of harming others for their own gain. ("They'd do it to me, I just fucked them first.")

Thus you get people who flat out support hurting others and denying human rights that get quite offended at being judged for their "mere opinion". It's the rage of children caught doing a bad thing who puff up and scream that they're not doing the exact thing they're currently doing. ("Jimmy, take your hand out of the cookie jar." "IT'S NOT IT'S NOT IT'S NOT! YOU'RE NOT FAIR!")

Interestingly, these kind of childish outbursts have been getting pretty common among republicans challenged in public for their odious agenda. They just ball up their fists, get red faced, and start screaming at people.

Well... no offense to anyone here, but you do have to be kind of "simple" to believe that if we just gave rich people MORE money, that by virtue of their giving and kind nature, it will find itself back down to us.

 

[Snowybreak]

I judge based on beliefs and inferred beliefs. If someone is hateful towards any group of people, I will judge them.

And I will continue to say this, I will judge you if you voted Trump. I don't care if your personal ideologies don't line up 1:1 with him, because fuck you, you are enabling every single bit of all the hateful bullshit that man stands for.

 

[Imperfected]

Their actions?

The most important action the average person takes in their day to day life is voting on issues that have a society-wide impact, so...

 

[Psychoward]

What's your bad "news"? That he/she's in fact wrong about these people that he/she personally knows, and that you, as an outsider without any personal information about them outside of their vote in the 2016 presidential election, and having never met them, are here to enlighten said poster by declaring these people to be definitively "bad"? If only we had figured out earlier that the age-old question of what it means to be "good" can be easily answered by looking at a single vote! Would've saved us thousands of years worth of ethical quandaries.

Yeah, basically. Thanks for summing it up for me.

They're not definitively bad of course, some might have grown up since then and regretted their vote, but if you continue to support white supremacist climate-change deniers, yeah you're a bad person.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Well... no offense to anyone here, but you do have to be kind of "simple" to believe that if we just gave rich people MORE money, that by virtue of their giving and kind nature, it will find itself back down to us.

Yup. Same thing for social justice. "Well focusing on middle class White people will eventually result in changing that helps yall out..." It's bullshit on both fronts.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Yup. Same thing for social justice. "Well focusing on middle class White people will eventually result in changing that helps yall out..." It's bullshit on both fronts.

Yep.

Nothing is ever that simple. Especially when there's a concerted effort by a few, to stall or stop any changes that might rectify a situation.

 

[Psychoward]

Their actions?

Actions like... voting for a terrible government that will fuck over millions of people and isn't subtle about it? Chances are voting in the presidential elections are some of the biggest-scale actions some people will ever take.

They can vote for Space Duck Admiral Saddam Rasputin Bin Hitlerini for all I care. They do right by me, I'll do right by them.

This is unsurprising. If someone is nice to my face and then votes for someone who wishes to harm me, fuck them. I don't even know what to say if you can't grasp that concept. That is not doing right by you, that's being a manipulative sycophant.

 

[chadtwo]

Yeah, basically. Thanks for summing it up for me.

They're not definitively bad of course, some might have grown up since then and regretted their vote, but if you continue to support white supremacist climate-change deniers, yeah you're a bad person.

Again, though, that's an arbitrary cutoff. The idea that "continued support" of 6 months is enough to make these types of moral claims is absurd.

People seem to have so much trouble with the idea that morality being related to your politics is not the same as morality being your politics. These are not 1-to-1 relationships that map neatly onto the right-left spectrum and to treat them as such is to be so blatantly embroiled in partisanship that it is honestly hard for me to fathom.

 

[Psychoward]

Again, though, that's an arbitrary cutoff. The idea that "continued support" of 6 months is enough to make these types of moral claims is absurd.

You're the one arguing about moral objectivity here, I'm just saying if someone is supporting a racist etc. for president then at the time being they are a bad person. I'm not here to argue the semantics of badness, morality isn't always relative.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Again, though, that's an arbitrary cutoff. The idea that "continued support" of 6 months is enough to make these types of moral claims is absurd.

I hope they'll change, but they will always be the "Idiots who elected, an out of his depth, barely sane, racist as all hell, reality TV-show host president." in my eyes

 

[Joe Condor]

Actions like... voting for a terrible government that will fuck over millions of people and isn't subtle about it?

If they're polite to me, I'll be polite back.

You go asking everyone who they voted for when you first meet them?

 

[chadtwo]

You're the one arguing about moral objectivity here, I'm just saying if someone is supporting a racist etc. for president then at the time being they are a bad person. I'm not here to argue the semantics of badness, morality isn't always relative.

Do you see the contradiction there?

At the very least you've prefaced with "at the time being," although the idea that one's overall moral character is unfixed and can change polarity on the good-bad spectrum instantaneously based on who they vote for seems equally odd.

I'm not interested in moral relativity, and I'm confused as to how that has been your big takeaway.

 

[Vincent Grayson]

I'm not going to judge someone for their opinions on fiscal responsibility or tax law or similar.

I've got no qualms judging them over thinking entire sections of humanity don't matter, especially based on innate aspects of said people.