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Before retail goes away, there needs to be a way to resell digital games
- Thread starter Sad Affleck
- Start date
Sad Affleck
Member
In order to flood the market with used games you'd have to sell a lot of copies in the first place. There can't be second hand stock without an initial sale. With a system that gives a cut of each sale to both the distribution service and the publisher/developer I think you'd have a pretty healthy market.
disappeared
Banned
Retail isn't going away, at least not in our lifetime. I mean, companies are downsizing, but not going away entirely. Granted, things on the entertainment front seem to be headed that way at a faster speed, but I think that's because those types of customers are probably more inclined to go all digital than somebody just wanting to buy something like a microwave or a shirt.
They already do this to some extent, most of the major key third party key sellers have a bunch of "sales flippers", who buy during sales but don't activate the key, then resell on G2A or GMG.
I do think the instantaneous nature of digital sales would be a big put-off for such a system. Having engaged in my fair share of in-game markets there's absolutely a difference between sales that requires effort to make (similar to looking for used copies in physical stores) and a centralized location where ALL game sales are collected and displayed at once.
Dr. Black Jack
Member
You made your bed, have fun laying in it.
Sad Affleck
Member
Sure, why not? Many digital games are listed for full price outside of sales periods, even if they are old. Having copies on sale for cheaper than that would give publishers and developers significant revenue outside of sales periods. Not to mention that the person who bought the game on sale and sold it for a profit now has more money to spend on other games.
Reselling ability is not something I'd expect from digital. It's just not feasible.
What I do expect is essentially what we already have on PC with Steam, GOG etc.
- real sales, including discount outlets like cdkeys
- reasonable refund policy for when you realize you really don't like a game
- ability to login on multiple devices and easily play on any of them
- both local and cloud saves for every game
- option to buy from non-DRM stores
For now PC is the only platform I'm truly all digital on. I'm mixed on Xbox One and PS4 due to GWG and PS+, but all my Intentional purchases are physical.
Nintendo, and I LOVE Nintendo games, I'm completely physical except for a few games where there is no physical version. Nintendo has improved but they are still stone aged cavemen when it comes to digital games.
What I do expect is essentially what we already have on PC with Steam, GOG etc.
- real sales, including discount outlets like cdkeys
- reasonable refund policy for when you realize you really don't like a game
- ability to login on multiple devices and easily play on any of them
- both local and cloud saves for every game
- option to buy from non-DRM stores
For now PC is the only platform I'm truly all digital on. I'm mixed on Xbox One and PS4 due to GWG and PS+, but all my Intentional purchases are physical.
Nintendo, and I LOVE Nintendo games, I'm completely physical except for a few games where there is no physical version. Nintendo has improved but they are still stone aged cavemen when it comes to digital games.
autoduelist
Member
Reselling digital makes zero sense, and is broken easily. There is an infinite supply, and no detrimental effect to being 'used', so resale will be inherently broken... why buy a new product for $30 when the used is, say, $20 when there is zero difference? With retail, the 'used' is actually used, in digital, 'used' is 'new'.
At that point, the price for used means the game will effectively be on permanent sale, since nobody would buy new if used were available. This breaks the ability for the publisher to set a price for their product.
If you allow the customer to set the used price, this will also force a 'race to the bottom' with used prices, as people would obviously only buy the lowest price since there is no 'condition' to factor in. So soon, every single game would have a 'used' inventory that is dirt cheap, with absolutely zero reason for anyone to buy new.
Then you need to factor in that right now, 'new' digital game profits get divided between publisher and platform store. Used products would also need to provide profits to the seller... so now, your $30 game is constantly being sold used for $5 or $15, of which the seller gets a good chunk instead of you.
So the dev gets screwed by 'used digital' in every direction. The price is less, they get a smaller % of said price, and they never sell 'new' again as used inventory flourished.
Yeah, 'used digital' will never happen. It's inherently flawed as a concept. It breaks under the realities of infinite supply and permanent 'new' condition. There is zero upside to the developer/publisher.
There is, however, an easy solution: buy digital when the price meets your buy point, and only then. You'll get what you pay for.
At that point, the price for used means the game will effectively be on permanent sale, since nobody would buy new if used were available. This breaks the ability for the publisher to set a price for their product.
If you allow the customer to set the used price, this will also force a 'race to the bottom' with used prices, as people would obviously only buy the lowest price since there is no 'condition' to factor in. So soon, every single game would have a 'used' inventory that is dirt cheap, with absolutely zero reason for anyone to buy new.
Then you need to factor in that right now, 'new' digital game profits get divided between publisher and platform store. Used products would also need to provide profits to the seller... so now, your $30 game is constantly being sold used for $5 or $15, of which the seller gets a good chunk instead of you.
So the dev gets screwed by 'used digital' in every direction. The price is less, they get a smaller % of said price, and they never sell 'new' again as used inventory flourished.
Yeah, 'used digital' will never happen. It's inherently flawed as a concept. It breaks under the realities of infinite supply and permanent 'new' condition. There is zero upside to the developer/publisher.
There is, however, an easy solution: buy digital when the price meets your buy point, and only then. You'll get what you pay for.
Sad Affleck
Member
PC gamers didn't make their bed in that regard. Retail and DRM was strangling out PC gaming and going digital was the only path to survival. There was no other choice. The method of delivery should not affect consumer rights in any way, shape or form.
Don't worry, I will secretly support piracy if that happen.
Dr. Black Jack
Member
If you don't have a physical object in your hands it's not "yours" and you don't have any "rights" to it, especially if you accept a user agreement first. You paid for a license to use the data, not the data itself; name another industry that lets you do this with digital purchases. No one made you pay for the license, and you knew what you were getting with your purchase.
MyNameIsRye
Member
Are you serious? Or just a troll?
This could actually be a great way for publishers to make money. Sell game for $60, give you back $5 if you want to revoke your license. You're desperate to own the newest game right? You know you want to. Here's your $5.
(3 weeks later)
Oh, you want to buy that game back? That'll be $60.
(3 weeks later)
Oh, you want to buy that game back? That'll be $60.
MindGamingMantis
Banned
What we really need is the ability to get a refund on digital shit.
Sad Affleck
Member
Let me ask you this. How many people buy older digital games at full price outside of sales periods today? I understand the argument that noone would buy Call of Duty Black Ops at $40 new when a used copy would be available for less. So, how many people buy a digital game such as Black Ops outside of a sale period? Steamspy:
http://steamspy.com/app/42700
Check the Owners tab. Practically zero sales in the last 20 days. Zero revenue for the publisher. Why would it be a problem if used copies were available?
The issue for me isn't price point, but availability. I seldom sell my games so the ability to resell isn't a concern to me. What is a concern is being able to legally obtain a game that may be delisted due to licensing issues and what not. There are so many games being released these days that its quite possible a good/great game may pass you by during it's initial run.
As someone who was PC only during the sixth generation, I missed out on countless console-only titles. One such example was 007 Everything or Nothing. This is a licensed James Bond game that EA no longer holds the rights to that will never see the light of day on digital storefronts. However, thankfully due to having a physical release, I was able to buy a used copy on ebay for the original Xbox. This is the advantage of a used market.
On the flip side, a few years ago I found out that Konami released X-Men The Arcade game on XBL/PSN. How I didn't hear about this at the time of release I'm not sure, but I was stoked only to find out that it was delisted 3 years after it's release. This is a situation I hope to avoid in an all digital future. I don't want to have to resort to questionable means to play games that are no longer available for purchase. Having a system in place that allows you to buy, sell or even trade used games would alleviate such scenarios.
Sad Affleck
Member
That is completely wrong, both logically and legally. The delivery method doesn't change the nature of the product or the transaction. If I bought a licence I am selling a licence, it doesn't matter if it was delivered to me through a disc or a download. It's exactly the same product and the same rules apply.
Dr. Black Jack
Member
xeroborn55
Member
I only game on PC and I've been digital only for what feels like 4 or 5 years. My mindset has slowly shifted over that time.
First, and this is related to getting older and having more disposable income, but spending $60 on a new-release game that i am excited about is okay. Its okay that I will never sell it back to anyone. It will go in my library and always be there if I ever want to play it. I don't have to worry about the disc getting scratched or the dvd player in my xbox breaking or god forbid, losing the disc.
Second, the poster who previously said you need to pay attention to what price-point you are buying games at is totally right. I don't mind spending $60 on a game, but to me, not all games are worth $60. I really want to play the new Nier but not for $60. I'll wait for the sale and buy it at a price that is acceptable to me.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is, I no longer factor reselling a game into the value-proposition when I do buy a game. I pay the amount of money that is acceptable to me to digitally 'own' the game, and if its more than that, I don't buy it.
First, and this is related to getting older and having more disposable income, but spending $60 on a new-release game that i am excited about is okay. Its okay that I will never sell it back to anyone. It will go in my library and always be there if I ever want to play it. I don't have to worry about the disc getting scratched or the dvd player in my xbox breaking or god forbid, losing the disc.
Second, the poster who previously said you need to pay attention to what price-point you are buying games at is totally right. I don't mind spending $60 on a game, but to me, not all games are worth $60. I really want to play the new Nier but not for $60. I'll wait for the sale and buy it at a price that is acceptable to me.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is, I no longer factor reselling a game into the value-proposition when I do buy a game. I pay the amount of money that is acceptable to me to digitally 'own' the game, and if its more than that, I don't buy it.
Because the law would enforce them and because people woyld be more willing to buy digital knowing they can sell later.
Though I dont expect a way to resell digital, only get rid of your license for a small fee like 30% of current price.
Sad Affleck
Member
http://kotaku.com/5923280/european-court-says-you-should-be-able-to-re-sell-your-digital-games
Sooner or later the matter will be settled by legislation. I am confident that it will be settled in favor of the consumer.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I disagree. We don't need the ability to resell digital games. Tough luck. AFAIK you can't resell digital licenses for other medias as well, perhaps most other medias.
This clinging to the past concept of ownership. It's deeply rooted but not necessarily applicable to digital, just because you want it.
This clinging to the past concept of ownership. It's deeply rooted but not necessarily applicable to digital, just because you want it.
You work for GameStop?
Linkstrikesback
Member
There's no healthy market here that also gives a significant amount (and by significant, I mean even like >20% of the sale price) to the consumer selling.
There would never, ever, be a situation, if this reselling of digital copies idea ever came in that it would be worth buying a "new" copy. Within days, you'd have the market flooded with keys at prices undercutting the publisher significantly, for a variety of reasons, and then the publisher could expect to sell om the region 0 new copies ever again..
Fact of the matter is, a printed disc is a finite resource, even if there are millions of them, while a digital download is infinite, and in the first case the reseller brings something to sell that wouldn't exist without them, while in the digital case, they add literally nothing to the sale.
Sad Affleck
Member
The European Court of Justice will decide. Another link:
https://arstechnica.co.uk/tech-policy/2016/05/reselling-digital-goods-europe-e-books-software/
Patrick S.
Banned
Make one Steam account per game. Sell Steam account. Done.
Retail games aren't going away.
Physical media isn't going away.
Optical discs aren't going away.
All-digital downloads and games-as-a-service won't be happening anytime remotely soon.
The internet infrastructure in the U.S. is far too dogshit to support an all-digital gaming future. It won't be much improved in 3-4 years when next gen starts (PS5, Xbox Gemini or whatever). Then there is the issue of data caps.These policies the aren't going to change, much, if at all.
Sony, Microsoft (and Nintendo) are not going to leave behind millions of current and potential gamers who don't, or can't, download their games. They're not going to leave all that money on the table.
Retail going away? All digital future? Revisit this idea in about 15 years
Physical media isn't going away.
Optical discs aren't going away.
All-digital downloads and games-as-a-service won't be happening anytime remotely soon.
The internet infrastructure in the U.S. is far too dogshit to support an all-digital gaming future. It won't be much improved in 3-4 years when next gen starts (PS5, Xbox Gemini or whatever). Then there is the issue of data caps.These policies the aren't going to change, much, if at all.
Sony, Microsoft (and Nintendo) are not going to leave behind millions of current and potential gamers who don't, or can't, download their games. They're not going to leave all that money on the table.
Retail going away? All digital future? Revisit this idea in about 15 years
Dr. Black Jack
Member
"It will happen sooner or later" is not what you posted earlier:
Digital licenses are not the same as physical products, period. Buy digital all you want but you'll never "own" anything other than the hardware you play it on.
I won't get a single cent back to anything I purchase but the prices of games that are digital seem to drop in price more quickly IMO.
The nice trade off that I do enjoy is that if I buy a game I have 2 hours/2 weeks to get 100% of my money back if I am not happy. Could not do that with a physical copy.
The nice trade off that I do enjoy is that if I buy a game I have 2 hours/2 weeks to get 100% of my money back if I am not happy. Could not do that with a physical copy.
Megatron
Member
Lol. That was absolutely not their plan. That plan was for physical games only. At no point did they ever say it would apply to digital titles.
Where do you get this idea from?
Do you realize how much US internet infrastructure has improved over the last 5 years? Have you read about 5G technology at all?
Open your eyes wider.
Wowfunhappy
Member
Retail isn't going anywhere.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
Being able to resell digital games would destroy post-launch revenue for every game that isn't a service game. Say goodbye to story-oriented single-player games.
I'll never understand this demand. What people should be asking for is in more flexibility with the initial purchase (maybe a rental price that allows you to later pay the difference if you'd like to "own" the game), a better overall value proposition from the start, prices gradually getting lower over time, etc. I understand the appeal of the resell market, but is there really so much wrong with people getting paid for their work and there being an accurate market perception of the sales of a game? I feel like there are so many hidden gems that've become cult classics and are in short supply because of poor sales at retail. Asking to resell a license of a game that you technically don't even really own when a license is already for sale is just bizarre.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
#1: Retail won't go away, but even with slightly less brick-and-mortar retail you can still get physical copies (Amazon, Best Buy, etc.), and that's not going anywhere at all.
#2: No. It's so artificial to re-sell something that is infinite and a licence. The platform holders don't want you getting any part of that money you parted with back. If you want to do that, well it's one of the many benefits of physical games. Return to the club.
#2: No. It's so artificial to re-sell something that is infinite and a licence. The platform holders don't want you getting any part of that money you parted with back. If you want to do that, well it's one of the many benefits of physical games. Return to the club.
Tal Shiar Agent
Member
Digital only is the end of ownership and unacceptable. There is no inherent value in digital games.
So like a really expensive rental?
There's very little difference between just charging a lower price up front and offering a 30% refund after the consumer gets bored. I suppose the latter option benefits consumers who quickly burn through games at the expense of consumers who build backlogs or play slowly.
As for if and when laws force companies to allow resale of downloadable content in any meaningful way, well, I'm not holding my breath.
I've say this before, but I just can't understand why are some people in such a hurry to go all digital. I just can't.
Also this:
I honestly a baffling attitude.
Also this:
I honestly a baffling attitude.
Merchandise
Member
Dumb question (like really dumb):
Digital games that are DRM free - can you rip yours onto a disc and then sell that disc as you would a used game? Or is it still like you need a code to activate the game?
(Not that I do this - physical for life.)
Edit: I also think that the death of retail, if ever, would come from Sony/Microsoft et. al. themselves, not from lack of consumer demand or anything. Stores take a big chunk of the money from retail games, but games sold on PSN are pretty much pure profit, right? So if these companies just decide to remove the disc drive in future consoles citing some Apple logic, retail would die. As posted previously just lowering the price of digital games would probably mitigate any need for being able to resell them. There's no reason a digital copy should cost exactly the same as a physical one.
Digital games that are DRM free - can you rip yours onto a disc and then sell that disc as you would a used game? Or is it still like you need a code to activate the game?
(Not that I do this - physical for life.)
Edit: I also think that the death of retail, if ever, would come from Sony/Microsoft et. al. themselves, not from lack of consumer demand or anything. Stores take a big chunk of the money from retail games, but games sold on PSN are pretty much pure profit, right? So if these companies just decide to remove the disc drive in future consoles citing some Apple logic, retail would die. As posted previously just lowering the price of digital games would probably mitigate any need for being able to resell them. There's no reason a digital copy should cost exactly the same as a physical one.
Hephaestus
Member
"The crux of the ECJ's ruling was this: once the copyright holder of the software (Oracle in this case) has sold the product, it doesn't get to stop the buyer from selling it on as she wishes. Its rights as the seller are "exhausted" in that first sale. In Europe, this is known as the "principle of exhaustion"; in the US, it's called the "first-sale doctrine."
But since the sellers rights are exhausted in the first sale, means the company doesn't have to help you sale the game, nor support the sold copy.
Your free to cut a and paste the game directory from your computer copy it onto a mem stick and sale it to someone else. Its not the publishers responsibility to make sure those files work, or are install-able, patched or anything else. Thats between you and the new buyer.
But since the sellers rights are exhausted in the first sale, means the company doesn't have to help you sale the game, nor support the sold copy.
Your free to cut a and paste the game directory from your computer copy it onto a mem stick and sale it to someone else. Its not the publishers responsibility to make sure those files work, or are install-able, patched or anything else. Thats between you and the new buyer.
I never sold any games I've bought, however the prospect of downloading games digitally and then giving them back after a certain amount of time to receive a discount on a new game seems promising. I wonder though if any publisher would ever do this, I think they would benefit in a way as customers would be rewarded by being faithful to that publisher.
I wonder if this will happen though, most would love nothing more than seeing physical media disappear completely, because you can resell them.
I wonder if this will happen though, most would love nothing more than seeing physical media disappear completely, because you can resell them.
ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
if a person buy them at cheap price and flip them during non-sales period, its only benefitting the flipper, not the publisher.
Abilidebob
Member
Reselling digital wouldn't really work. What COULD work would be some kind of "return" to the store. Let's say you bought a game for 60 usd. After you finish it you can "return" your license for something like 20% of the value paid as store credits. That value comes from the store, the developers won't pay anything for it. Users can return games they haven't played in years to buy new games, moving more money for developers.
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